quote:Originally posted by Super car: You probably meant E3a here, right?
[This message has been edited by Super car (edited 19 October 2005).]
Thanks for the correction, we had that discussion on the Nile Valley forum, indeed E3a is often labeled as Bantu related haplogroup but is found in the Nile Valley, among Saharans and West Africans and predates the Bantu expansion. The Tuaregs who in my sense are probably one of the most important group genetically with respect to the origin of the E haplogroups and the split between E3a and E3b carry both E3a and E3b and have the highest amount recorded so far of haplogroup E parent of E3a and E3b, and are not connected to the Bantu expansion. It seems that the Sahara is central to the dispersal of Africans within Africa. Concerning the Sans, since E3a apparently is not solely related to Bantu speaking people, and the presence of San looking people in the Sahara area had been revealed, is it possible that this haplogroup was present among San before the Bantu migration especially since we know that the Sans were hunter gatherers isolated from other groups? Why farmers would revert to hunter gathering and immerse themselves among hunter gatherers? That's what is inferred when geneticists link E3a to the Bantu migration. It’s like you have a car and you decide to go back to a horse. Relaxx
Noun 1. Sub-Saharan Africa - the region of Africa south of the Sahara Desert Black Africa geographic area, geographic region, geographical area, geographical region - a demarcated area of the Earth Africa - the second largest continent; located south of Europe and bordered to the west by the South Atlantic and to the east by the Indian Ocean
Sub-Saharan Africa From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Jump to: navigation, search
A satellite composite image of Africa showing the ecological break between North and Sub-Saharan regionsSub-Saharan Africa, Africa south of the Sahara, is the term used to describe those countries of Africa that are not part of North Africa. In 19th Century Europe and the Americas, sub-Saharan Africa was commonly known as Black Africa or as Dark Africa, partly due to the race of its indigenous inhabitants and partly because much of it had not been fully mapped or explored by Westerners (Africa as a whole was sometimes labelled "the dark continent"). These terms are now obsolete, and often considered to be offensive. The neutral phrase African Uplands was preferred by Hegel and some other writers of the time, however this was primarily intended to refer to the African interior as opposed to coastal regions.
Since the end of the last Ice Age, the North and sub-Saharan Africa have been separated by the extremely harsh climate of the sparsely populated Sahara, forming an effective barrier interrupted by only the Nile River. The modern term sub-Saharan corresponds with the standard representation of North as above and South as below. Tropical Africa is an alternative modern label, related to the word Afrotropic, used for the distinctive ecology of the region. However, if strictly applied, this term would exclude South Africa, most of which lies outside the Tropics.
The division of Africa into two, broad regions also has arisen from historical and geopolitical considerations, resulting in profound differences with regard to perceptions of North and sub-Saharan Africa. It is these same considerations which essentially have caused Egypt to be taken out of Africa, conceptually speaking, and placed in the Middle East. North Africa's inhabitants generally are perceived and portrayed by the West to be predominantly Caucasoid. Such perceptions have arisen from the centuries-old predominance of Islam in the region and the lumping together of the original, Tuareg Berbers who originated in the Northeast, with the fairer-skinned Berbers of the Maghreb.
As in ancient times, however, black peoples comprise significant portions of the populations of many North African nations, including the Tuareg, who can be found across the breadth of North Africa, and other indigenous Africans— some belonging to other black Berber populations— including the Imraguen, Tebu and Haratin of Algeria, Libya, Tunisia, Morocco and Mauritania. Further, the so-called "Caucasoid" and "Arab" populations of North Africa are often swarthy and possess other Africoid physical characteristics due to miscegenation over time with indigenous blacks of the region. As a result, the problematic grouping of African nations into geopolitical regions, and the perceptions associated with such divisions—particularly those based on notions of race and ethnicity—are fraught with inherent paradoxes. Sudan is a case in point. It is considered a North African nation, but its inhabitants are predominantly dark-skinned, black Africans.
In great part because of the spread of Islam across the northernmost regions of the African continent, and the subsequent Arabization of certain indigenous black populations, for several millennia North Africa has been integrated geopolitically, economically, in general public perception -- and, to a great extent, by the religion of Islam -- with the Middle East, and with the Mediterranean as well.
With a few exceptions, such as Mauritius and South Africa, sub-Saharan Africa is, like the rest of Africa, one of the poorest regions in the world, still suffering from the legacies of colonial conquest and occupation, neocolonialism, and internal conflict. The region contains many of the least developed countries in the world. (See Economy of Africa.)
Black Africa Black Africa is a colloquial term that refers to areas of the African continent which largely correspond to Sub-Saharan Africa. The term commonly is used to distinguish between North Africa, which in the West is often perceived to be peopled mostly by non-blacks, and the remainder of the continent. In common usage, it is a loose and somewhat misleading term, because there are several Saharan nations which are widely acknowledged to be predominantly black, among them Mali, Niger and Chad. These nations may be considered part of North Africa geographically, as, for example, is Sudan, which is also a predominantly black African nation. Significant populations of indigenous black Africans exist across North Africa (see Sub-Saharan Africa), and equally, non-black populations intrude into sub-Saharan regions.
[edit] Nations of sub-Saharan Africa The exact position of the dividing line between the two regions is not clearly defined because of discontinuous and blurred break-points between national boundaries, ecologies and ethnicities. However, according to one classification of the two regions, sub-Saharan Africa includes forty-eight nations. Forty-two of these nations are on the African mainland. In addition, four island nations in the southwest Indian Ocean (Madagascar, The Comoros, Mauritius, and Seychelles) and two island nations in the Atlantic Ocean (Cape Verde and São Tomé and Príncipe) are considered part of sub-Saharan Africa. According to this classification scheme, the countries of sub-Saharan Africa are:
[edit] Central Africa Angola (also sometimes considered part of Southern Africa) Burundi (also sometimes considered part of East Africa) Cameroon (also sometimes considered part of West Africa) Central African Republic Chad (also sometimes considered part of West Africa) Democratic Republic of the Congo Equatorial Guinea (also sometimes considered part of West Africa) Gabon (also sometimes considered part of West Africa) Rwanda (also sometimes considered part of East Africa) Republic of Congo Zambia (also sometimes considered part of Southern Africa) [edit] East Africa Burundi (also sometimes considered part of Central Africa) Kenya Mozambique (also sometimes considered part of Southern Africa) Rwanda (also sometimes considered part of Central Africa) Tanzania Uganda [edit] North East Africa Djibouti Eritrea Ethiopia Somalia (including Somaliland) Sudan (often also considered part of North Africa) [edit] Southern Africa Angola (also sometimes considered part of Central Africa) Botswana Lesotho Malawi Mozambique (also sometimes considered part of East Africa) Namibia South Africa Swaziland Zambia (also sometimes considered part of Central Africa) Zimbabwe [edit] West Africa Benin Burkina Faso Cameroon (also sometimes considered part of Central Africa) Chad (also sometimes considered part of Central Africa) Côte d'Ivoire Equatorial Guinea (also sometimes considered part of Central Africa) Gabon (also sometimes considered part of Central Africa) The Gambia Ghana Guinea Guinea-Bissau Liberia Mali Mauritania Niger Nigeria Senegal Sierra Leone Togo [edit] African island nations Cape Verde (West Africa) Comoros (Southern Africa) Madagascar (Southern Africa) Mauritius (Southern Africa) São Tomé and Príncipe (Central Africa or West Africa) Seychelles (East Africa) [edit] Territories, possessions, départements Mayotte (France) Réunion (France)
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I haven't denied that E3b has its origins in sub-Saharan Africa, so quit beating a dead horse, I was dealing specifically with the alpha mutation which did *NOT* originate in sub-Saharan Africa. No one is denying that E3b1 arose in sub-Saharan East Africa, the alpha mutation of E3b1 did not arise in sub-Saharan East Africa. Thats all I have.
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quote:Originally posted by relaxx: Thanks for the correction, we had that discussion on the Nile Valley forum, indeed E3a is often labeled as Bantu related haplogroup but is found in the Nile Valley, among Saharans and West Africans and predates the Bantu expansion.
Keeping in mind that E3a has one of the highest frequencies in the West African coast, where E3b1 is also present in small frequencies.
quote:relaxx: The Tuaregs who in my sense are probably one of the most important group genetically with respect to the origin of the E haplogroups and the split between E3a and E3b carry both E3a and E3b and have the highest amount recorded so far of haplogroup E parent of E3a and E3b, and are not connected to the Bantu expansion.
Well, Tuaregs, as you know, are Afrasan speakers and not Bantu speakers. If there are indeed E3a in Tuareg gene pool, it would have been likely due to gene flow from west Africans carrying E3a lineages. The primary Tuareg lineage that strongly correlates with their language group, like other Berber speaking groups, happens to be E3b lineages, particularly with with E-M81/E3b2. Of course, they carry other lineages like the E1 lineages. I make these claims, keeping in mind the data provided above these notes for the populations mentioned; the ancestral populations of these populations are the ones to watch out for, for possible origins of E3a, and perhaps the split of PN2 clade. Needless to say, the Sahara region is thus far the best candidate for these occurances, region-wise.
quote:relaxx: It seems that the Sahara is central to the dispersal of Africans within Africa.
Without a doubt. Indigenous populations now inhabiting west and North Africa, couldn't reached those regions, without having passed through the Sahara.
quote:relaxx: Concerning the Sans, since E3a apparently is not solely related to Bantu speaking people, and the presence of San looking people in the Sahara area had been revealed, is it possible that this haplogroup was present among San before the Bantu migration especially since we know that the Sans were hunter gatherers isolated from other groups? Why farmers would revert to hunter gathering and immerse themselves among hunter gatherers? That's what is inferred when geneticists link E3a to the Bantu migration. It’s like you have a car and you decide to go back to a horse.
Well, skeletal remains that are said to have affinities with those of Khoisan bushmen, were certainly found as far north as Egypt.
"Paradoxically, genetic comparisons of Khoisan and Ethiopian populations show both polarity and affinity with respect to one another. This has been shown by the principal-components (PC) analysis of 79 classical protein polymorphisms (Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1993, 1994, p. 191). Although the second PC indicates that the Ethiopian and Khoisan populations are the most divergent, the third PC shows a close relationship. Although intermediary Bantu-speaking populations currently separate these two groups geographically, archeological findings suggest that the Khoisan territory once extended above the equator, to present-day southern Ethiopia and *Sudan* (Nurse et al. 1985, p. 105)." - Semino et al. 2001
More info from Semino et al...
“In particular, Group I, observed in 43.6% of the Khoisan (usually considered to be descendants of an early African population), is present in all of the Ethiopian samples: its frequency is 10.3% in the Oromo sample and 14.6% in the Amhara sample of the present study, and is 13.6% in the ethnically undefined sample reported by Underhill et al. (2000). In contrast, it was not found in the Senegalese…the Ethiopian and Khoisan samples within Group I fall into different haplotypes (haplotypes 1, 2, and 5 in Ethiopians vs. haplotypes 4, 6, and 7 in the Khoisan), in agreement with an ancient divergence from the same ancestral population, as has been suggested by microsatellite data (Scozzari et al. 1999)…
Group III is **less frequent** in the Khoisan (28.2%), who share with Ethiopians only the M35 haplotype 19 (10.3%). Conversely, the M2 component, which occurs at a frequency of **17.9%** in the Khoisan, is virtually absent in the Ethiopians.” - Semino et al.
At least from the results of this study, given the "early" divergence between two ancestral populations, i.e., Ethiopians and Khoisans, one could probably say that M2 in Khoisan is perhaps through Bantu expansions.
And this is from Cruciani et al...
“Also, the extensive interpopulation E-M35* microsatellite diversity (fig. 2A) between Ethiopians and Khoisan indicates that eastern Africans and Khoisan have been separated for a considerable period of time, as has been suggested elsewhere (Scozzari et al. 1999; Cruciani et al. 2002; Semino et al. 2002)”. - Cruciani et al.
Given these data, it is possible that gene flow occurred between expanding Bantu speakers and some Khoisan groups, reflecting the M2 frequency in the Khoisans. Again, the aforementioned data on populations carrying the oldest E3a lineages is taken into consideration here. If archeological data, as indicated in Semino et al’s study is anything to go by, then the possibility of Khoisan groups carrying the M2 lineage from the more northerly regions [as in the Sahara], cannot be ruled out, i.e., taking into consideration the dating of the said archeological finds, with respect to that attributed to the M2 mutation.
[This message has been edited by Super car (edited 20 October 2005).]
quote:Originally posted by Charlie_Bass: I haven't denied that E3b has its origins in sub-Saharan Africa, so quit beating a dead horse,
Okay!
quote:Charlie_Bass: I was dealing specifically with the alpha mutation which did *NOT* originate in sub-Saharan Africa. No one is denying that E3b1 arose in sub-Saharan East Africa, the alpha mutation of E3b1 did not arise in sub-Saharan East Africa. Thats all I have.
and what bearing does this have on its "sub-Saharan derivation"? ...this, my friend, is what you seem to be having a problem grasping. How did the alpha mutation occur in the Asia minor, or southern Europe? Did it just pop up, or was there a predecessor from which it mutated? Was that precursor not the delta cluster? That delta cluster got into the Eurasian region, how? Where did it originate; was that not sub-Saharan Africa? The alpha cluster was derived from the sub-Saharan delta cluster, and hence, by definition is sub-Saharan "derived". I really don't know what is so confusing about that!
quote:Originally posted by Charlie_Bass: If you agree that bone morphology does not equate to Y-chromosones why refer to a lineage as "black African derived"? This isn't leg pulling, its a simple question.
That's the same question I've been asking him for months now, and that he can't answer because he wants it both ways:
Do you accept Underhill's statement that "There are no known genes on the Y that dictate bone morphology", or do you continue to maintain that so-called "negroid traits" in Levantines and Greeks are the result of their E3b Y-chromosomes?
P.S. you still haven't sent me Brace's new research, nor the Wetton study . . .
quote:Originally posted by Super car: EE is not just assuming that the genes are **derived** from "caucasoids", but thinks that the genes themselves ARE "caucasoid". He thinks that Y chromosomes have a genetic code that determines what he calls "caucasoid"
That's a lie. I never said any such thing. I've always maintained that Y-chromosomes correlate with races. When E3b originated ~28,000 years ago, it had no racial affiliation because the races hadn't differentiated yet. But since it originated in NE Africa and then traveled to the Mideast and Europe (areas where Caucasoid phenotypes evolved), it eventually came to correlate with the Caucasoid race. E-M78-alpha and E-M81 especially can be considered "Caucasoid lineages" because they're virtually restricted to the Caucasoid peoples of Europe and North Africa.
quote:Originally posted by osirion: My answer is that you are a shmuck and your evidence isn't worth the virtual paper its written on.
The anthropological evidence I posted is supported by modern genetics. Neolithic farmers were not the same people as those currently living in the Middle East:
"The significant genetic structuring of populations facing the Mediterranean basin into three groupings, Near Eastern Arab, Mediterranean and North African, is related to the demographic processes that have occurred since first populating the area. The distribution of Neolithic technologies was probably paralleled by demographic expansion in the Mediterranean basin, and subsequent westward migration by Phoenicians and Greeks contributed to the distribution of Y chromosome types of most likely Near East origin. The Arab conquest in particular appears to have had a dramatic influence on the East and South Mediterranean coasts, with differential sex-related gene flow playing a major role in the distribution of genetic variation. The presence of Arab Y chromosome lineages in the Middle East suggests that most have experienced substantial gene flow from the Arabian peninsula. This result raises the issue of the correctness of identifying all Near Eastern populations as reliable representations of the original Neolithic groups that expanded from the Middle East towards the European peninsula."
(Capelli et al., Ann Hum Genet, 2005)
[This message has been edited by Evil Euro (edited 20 October 2005).]
I've always maintained that Y-chromosomes correlate with races.
Thought Writes:
You mean like R*-M173 "correlating" with Cameroonians? In reality Y-Clade lineages are indeed a good tool to trace human dispersals, but if we wanted to look at relative affinity autosomal DNA would be a better tool.
EE is not just assuming that the genes are **derived** from "caucasoids", but thinks that the genes themselves ARE "caucasoid". He thinks that Y chromosomes have a genetic code that determines what he calls "caucasoid"
In response...
quote: That's a lie. I never said any such thing. I've always maintained that Y-chromosomes correlate with races.
Really? Then, "correlating" Y-chromosomes with the "morphology" of mail bride order females, even though sane folks know that women don't carry them, was part of your "correlation"?! Spamming the board with selective photos of Somali men, or northern coastal berbers, and insisting that it is because of E3b that they look like that, was also part of this casual "correlation"? If all this wasn't meant to convey the message that Y-chromosomes somehow contain a magic genetic code that determines facial characteristics, then pray tell, what was your whole point?
quote: When E3b originated ~28,000 years ago, it had no racial affiliation because the races hadn't differentiated yet. But since it originated in NE Africa and then traveled to the Mideast and Europe (areas where Caucasoid phenotypes evolved), it eventually came to correlate with the Caucasoid race.
E3b didn't reach Europe ~ 28 ky ago, but in the Holocene during the Neolithic expansion. Needless to say, we already know that Neolithic east Africans resemble those of the living inhabitants of the region, while this isn't the case with Europeans. Given that reality, so then, you consider the living inhabitants of sub-Saharan East Africa still "undifferentiated"?
quote:E-M78-alpha and E-M81 especially can be considered "Caucasoid lineages" because they're virtually restricted to the Caucasoid peoples of Europe and North Africa.
Considered "caucasoid" by who? crackpots like you. What does "caucasians" have to do with derivation of E3b?...perhaps, you'll take a chance to answer this simple question, since you don't seem to have your up-to-date scientific definition for invalid terms like "caucasoid"!
Alert!- stay tuned for the same months old gibberish for answers; been there, done that!
quote:Originally posted by rasol: None, whatsoever, if we understand what clusters are to begin with. So, perhaps we can move-on now.
Perhaps. I want to shed light on something interesting about the Underhill quote Charlie Bass posted, which I initially looked at in a passing:
According to Charlie...
Underhill's words verbatim on haplogroup E:
"What is clear regarding Y haplogroups such as those within the E clade, is that there is exquiste geographic patterning and substructure concerning Y chromosome phylogenetic patternin (i.e.phylogeography). Thus, chromosomes classified as E3a-M2 best reflect W and C.African ancestral paternity although these types also occur elsewhere in Africa, often at considerably lower frequency. The situation for E3b-M35 encompasses N and E Africa as well as the MidEast and Europe, however subclades within E3b show strong correlations with geography." - P. Underhill.
Notice something interesting here? Well, notice how Africa is diced up into geographical entities of west, east, north and south, while on the other hand, "MidEast" and "Europe" are lumped into a "single" entity?...even though, we know it is far from truth, that E3b1 distribution in either of these regions is a uniform one. Matter of fact, E3b isn't that much frequent in MidEast or Europe, but concentrated in certain places in these regions. For example, in west Asia, it isn't widely found in southern Arabia as it's relatively more frequent presence northward. In Europe, the relatively low presence of E3b1, is concentrated in the southern regions, with southeastern regions demonstrating highest frequencies, while there is very little to no presence in northern European. Using the same treatment, one might as well include the entire African continent, for there is E3b present virtually in every region on the continent. In Europe, or even the so-called MidEast, this clearly isn't the case. So, for an example, why speak of the entire "Europe", with regards to the correlation of E3b-M35 distributions?
[This message has been edited by Super car (edited 20 October 2005).]
quote:Notice something interesting here? Well, notice how Africa is diced up into geographical entities of , "MidEast" and "Europe" are lumped into a "single" entity?
Of course.
Point of principal: Sources must be evaluated with rigorous critical thinking, and not passively accepted ad hoc, and without taking their biases and limitations into consideration.
This is how we learn and glean value from them, and this is also how they learn from us.
This is true if you are evaluating the ideas of Diop or Champollian, or Budge or Yurco, or Underhill and Spencer Wells.
[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 20 October 2005).]
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