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Hidden for 4,000 years - is this the world's first gay kiss?
By Terri Judd Published: 02 January 2006
As the "gay cowboy flick" Brokeback Mountain opens in Britain amid indignant protests from old Wyoming ranch hands, it emerged yesterday that such controversies are almost as old as art itself.
What may be the first depiction of a gay kiss was discovered in a 4,000-year-old Egyptian tomb, according to a recent conference at the University of Wales.
Their arms entwined, their torsos and noses touching Niankhkhnum and Khnumhotep were painted together for eternity in an embrace usually associated with heterosexual couples of the 5th dynasty.
Just as there has been much wringing of hands and protestations that "there ain't no queer in cowboy"in Marlboro country over Ang Lee's portrayal of two gay ranch hands, this intimate pair have long been considered "problematic" to Egyptologists.
One of the largest and most beautiful of all the tombs in the necropolis at Saqqara, south of Cairo, the two men's final resting place was discovered in 1964. The archaeologist Ahmed Moussa made the rare find of two men of equal status buried together in a tomb decorated with images of them holding hands or locked nose to nose.
In a recent talk at the University of Wales on Sex and Gender in Ancient Egypt Greg Reeder explained that the affectionate embrace might suggest the pair were lovers. Describing an image of the two men tightly clasping each other in the offering chamber, Mr Reeder said: "Here, in the innermost private part of their joint-tomb, the two men stand in an embrace meant to last for eternity."
The official view by one of the world's most eminent Egyptologists, Zahi Hawass, is that they were brothers, perhaps even conjoined twins. Other eminent academics have also suggested the similarities in the names would suggest this to be the case and there is a danger that modern European eyes fail to resist the temptation of seeing the images as homoerotic. Nevertheless, the tomb has become a favourite for gay couples.
The "Tomb of the Hairdressers" or "Tomb of Two Brothers" as it has become known was in fact the burial place of King Niuserre's manicurists.
While the paintings do show wives and children, the two women are obliterated or omitted from a scene of a final banquet.
"Same-sex desire must be considered as a probable explanation," said Mr Reeder, adding: "We can only say for certain that the carvings show a profound intimacy between the two men, and the people who built the tomb were possibly unsure how to portray this."
Such depictions of the "love that dare not speak its name" have been setting art lovers and audiences all a flutter for years. The groundbreaking 1971 film Sunday, Bloody Sunday was the first mainstream movie to show two gay characters kissing while few forget the tabloid furore when Brookside aired the first pre-watershed lesbian kiss more than a decade ago. Since then countless soaps have followed suit while the Channel 4 series Queer as Folk broke all barriers with explicit sex scenes.
In the year that gay unions were legally sanctioned, it is unlikely that Brokeback Mountain will cause more than a few murmurs of protest on this side of the Atlantic. But as America's religious right continues to air its disapproval, their objections are being drowned out by loud accolades and applause as the film collecting numerous award nominations.
quote:Originally posted by Automatic For The People: Hidden for 4,000 years - is this the world's first gay kiss?
By Terri Judd Published: 02 January 2006
As the "gay cowboy flick" Brokeback Mountain opens in Britain amid indignant protests from old Wyoming ranch hands, it emerged yesterday that such controversies are almost as old as art itself.
What may be the first depiction of a gay kiss was discovered in a 4,000-year-old Egyptian tomb, according to a recent conference at the University of Wales.
Their arms entwined, their torsos and noses touching Niankhkhnum and Khnumhotep were painted together for eternity in an embrace usually associated with heterosexual couples of the 5th dynasty.
Just as there has been much wringing of hands and protestations that "there ain't no queer in cowboy"in Marlboro country over Ang Lee's portrayal of two gay ranch hands, this intimate pair have long been considered "problematic" to Egyptologists.
One of the largest and most beautiful of all the tombs in the necropolis at Saqqara, south of Cairo, the two men's final resting place was discovered in 1964. The archaeologist Ahmed Moussa made the rare find of two men of equal status buried together in a tomb decorated with images of them holding hands or locked nose to nose.
In a recent talk at the University of Wales on Sex and Gender in Ancient Egypt Greg Reeder explained that the affectionate embrace might suggest the pair were lovers. Describing an image of the two men tightly clasping each other in the offering chamber, Mr Reeder said: "Here, in the innermost private part of their joint-tomb, the two men stand in an embrace meant to last for eternity."
The official view by one of the world's most eminent Egyptologists, Zahi Hawass, is that they were brothers, perhaps even conjoined twins. Other eminent academics have also suggested the similarities in the names would suggest this to be the case and there is a danger that modern European eyes fail to resist the temptation of seeing the images as homoerotic. Nevertheless, the tomb has become a favourite for gay couples.
The "Tomb of the Hairdressers" or "Tomb of Two Brothers" as it has become known was in fact the burial place of King Niuserre's manicurists.
While the paintings do show wives and children, the two women are obliterated or omitted from a scene of a final banquet.
"Same-sex desire must be considered as a probable explanation," said Mr Reeder, adding: "We can only say for certain that the carvings show a profound intimacy between the two men, and the people who built the tomb were possibly unsure how to portray this."
Such depictions of the "love that dare not speak its name" have been setting art lovers and audiences all a flutter for years. The groundbreaking 1971 film Sunday, Bloody Sunday was the first mainstream movie to show two gay characters kissing while few forget the tabloid furore when Brookside aired the first pre-watershed lesbian kiss more than a decade ago. Since then countless soaps have followed suit while the Channel 4 series Queer as Folk broke all barriers with explicit sex scenes.
In the year that gay unions were legally sanctioned, it is unlikely that Brokeback Mountain will cause more than a few murmurs of protest on this side of the Atlantic. But as America's religious right continues to air its disapproval, their objections are being drowned out by loud accolades and applause as the film collecting numerous award nominations.
Thought Writes:
What is the source for this article?
Posts: 2720 | Registered: May 2004
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I would say no to the gay innuendo in this case. Many people and places outside the American culture have manners that are homosexual in our cultural context but are totally innocuous in theirs. It is very common to see two males or two females of equal age holding hands in African,Asian and Middle Eastern cultures. This is regardless of religion. It is also not uncommon in Southern Europe. The homoerotic angle just doesn't hold up in this context. If these are the same pictures I have seen it appears that the men are not kissing at all but embracing. Posts: 167 | From: usa | Registered: Jul 2004
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O mi god I loved that queer as folk show-the canadian one.I soooo loved Justin....and Emmet. But I agree that the above looks non-homo-erotic. Simply men arm in arm do not a homosexual make-I would be inclined to believe the twin story.
Posts: 872 | From: Sydney | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by kifaru: I would say no to the gay innuendo in this case. Many people and places outside the American culture have manners that are homosexual in our cultural context but are totally innocuous in theirs. It is very common to see two males or two females of equal age holding hands in African,Asian and Middle Eastern cultures. This is regardless of religion. It is also not uncommon in Southern Europe. The homoerotic angle just doesn't hold up in this context. If these are the same pictures I have seen it appears that the men are not kissing at all but embracing.
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Of course, this picture is homo-erotic. The Egyptians invented it, there is much homo-erotic literature written by ancient Egyptians - they loved it. (many still do, by all accounts) Posts: 304 | From: egypt | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote: Of course, this picture is homo-erotic. The Egyptians invented it, there is much homo-erotic literature written by ancient Egyptians - they loved it. (many still do, by all accounts) [[Eek!]]
Unfortunately,Mrs. Doubtfire you always make references with out even citing your sources,and I would appreciate if in the future you would validate your claims. What evidence do you have that homosexuality was condoned in ancient Egyptian society? What homo-erotic literature are you referencing?
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote: Of course, this picture is homo-erotic. The Egyptians invented it, there is much homo-erotic literature written by ancient Egyptians - they loved it. (many still do, by all accounts) [[Eek!]]
Unfortunately,Mrs. Doubtfire you always make references with out even citing your sources,and I would appreciate if in the future you would validate your claims. What evidence do you have that homosexuality was condoned in ancient Egyptian society? What homo-erotic literature are you referencing?
LMAO Indeed! According to Egyptian texts homosexuality was considered a sin and the only figure in their myths that had any suggestion of homosexuality was Set who was an archetype of the strange and foreign in Egyptian beliefs.
Where the heck did you get the idea that homosexuality was somehow pervasive in Egyptian society?!! Last time I checked, a nickname for homosexuality was Greek love not Egyptian love!!
Perhaps this is another attempt to smear African culture and promote your 'holier than thou' European culture?
Anyways, that tomb painting alone is no conclusive proof that those two Egyptians were homosexual partners.
Posts: 26243 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Do you people realize that Mrs. Doubtfire left school decades ago. Does she, yet again, have to go scurying through sources of Egyptian homo-erotic literature just to satisfy lazy students!!!
If she has time, then she will try to look up the information for you. If homosexuality and promiscuity were not a problem in modern Egypt, then why has the Egyptian Government embarked on a program of AIDS awareness. No doubt the extremely high figures for the Aids related Deaths due to TB in recent years has rather highlighted the fact that a pandemic in Egypt is possible due to the promiscuity and homosexuality going on now. Now, I am just going off to find myself an Egyptian fairy, and will be back tomorrow with some "evidence" Posts: 304 | From: egypt | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote: Do you people realize that Mrs. Doubtfire left school decades ago. Does she, yet again, have to go scurying through sources of Egyptian homo-erotic literature just to satisfy lazy students!!!
If she has time, then she will try to look up the information for you.
You made the initial claim and so the Burden of proof is on you and nobody else. What you just demonstrated is logical fallacy:Burden of Proof
quote: If homosexuality and promiscuity were not a problem in modern Egypt, then why has the Egyptian Government embarked on a program of AIDS awareness. No doubt the extremely high figures for the Aids related Deaths due to TB in recent years has rather highlighted the fact that a pandemic in Egypt is possible due to the promiscuity and homosexuality going on now. Now, I am just going off to find myself an Egyptian fairy, and will be back tomorrow with some "evidence" [[Eek!]]
Homosexuality in modern Egypt has little bearing on what occured during pharaonic times. Two logical fallacies in a row,and this one is known as Non SequiturPosts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote: Do you people realize that Mrs. Doubtfire left school decades ago. Does she, yet again, have to go scurying through sources of Egyptian homo-erotic literature just to satisfy lazy students!!!
If she has time, then she will try to look up the information for you.
You made the initial claim and so the Burden of proof is on you and nobody else. What you just demonstrated is logical fallacy:Burden of Proof
quote: If homosexuality and promiscuity were not a problem in modern Egypt, then why has the Egyptian Government embarked on a program of AIDS awareness. No doubt the extremely high figures for the Aids related Deaths due to TB in recent years has rather highlighted the fact that a pandemic in Egypt is possible due to the promiscuity and homosexuality going on now. Now, I am just going off to find myself an Egyptian fairy, and will be back tomorrow with some "evidence" [[Eek!]]
Homosexuality in modern Egypt has little bearing on what occured during pharaonic times. Two logical fallacies in a row,and this one is known as Non Sequitur
Ausar you are wasting your time with guy, for his entire mental function is a logical fallacy! Posts: 26243 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Now my dears, I have already had one person this week trying to convince me that the Dinka cannibals used to file their teeth for cosmetic reasons. I have provided the evidence to totally refute this claim made by a "dentist". Now I ask you, what does a dentist know about cannibalism and Ancient Egypt and Nilotic cannibals?
It is quite evident that whilst these black savages (including pygmies who were amongst the worst cannibals) were swinging through the branches of trees in order to ambush members of other tribes they were inclined in their more leisurly pursuits to file their teeth to make them look more aggressive. This also had the dual purpose of getting hold of the arm of a captive live meal.
On the other hand,at that time, the slightly more civilised Egyptian men were in the habit of cosmetically enhancing their maleness, by sitting and filing their nails,circumcising themselves, touching up their eyes with black eye-liner, walking about semi-naked in see-through clothing and writing homo-erotic love poetry to the dolcet tones of the Egyptian harp.
History cannot be denied, and it is said that it repeats itself. We have seen that Egyptian homosexuality had influenced the later cultures of people like the Greeks and the Romans as much else of Egyptian culture did. And when we look at the Egyptian culture today, we find that maleness defines itself in inappropriate touching, kissing, embracing, and the holding of hands. Now in slightly more advanced cultures in the West for example, this is quite frowned upon, and indeed any young men caught walking down the road holding hands or kissing in the street in England, for example, are likely to be beaten up by their peers.
It is often said that this inappropriate touching, holding of hands, embracing and kissing of male peers is not sexualised. However, if one travels only a relatively short distance from Egypt to Iran, one finds there an entirely different opinion. The Iranian Muslims do in fact consider this behaviour to be sexualised and effiminate and it is totally forbidden. In fact, should this behaviour advance in further sexualised behaviour (as there is the potential) such as penetration, then the Iranian and Islamic punishment is death. Those found in such a position are allowed, however, to choose their mode of execution, either splitting in two with a sword, throwing off the top of a building, being buried alive, or hung. Indeed some 4OOO or more have been summarily disposed of in these various ways within the last decade.
It is simply no good people denying their history or being in denial regarding their current customs and behaviours for the only reason that Egyptian men behave as they do today is as a result of what their ancestors were doing. Posts: 304 | From: egypt | Registered: Dec 2005
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There is a very good book out by Lise Manniche entitled "Sexual Life in Ancient Egypt" and touches on much recent research on the subject, including homosexuality. It might be of interest to those wishing to discover their past and seeing what their ancestors got up to in the bedroom. Posts: 304 | From: egypt | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Mrs. Doubtfire: Now my dears, I have already had one person this week trying to convince me that the Dinka cannibals used to file their teeth for cosmetic reasons. I have provided the evidence to totally refute this claim made by a "dentist". Now I ask you, what does a dentist know about cannibalism and Ancient Egypt and Nilotic cannibals?
LMAO You have not refuted a single thing since you began your array of crazy claims. The source I provided was about cultural modification of teeth, and although the material was used to teach Orthodontists, the source comes from studies done by anthropologists!
All anthropologists agree that tooth filing is a custom done for aesthetic purposes and have nothing to do with cannibalism. In fact, all the societies that do practice ritualized cannibalism like the people of New Guinea don't even practice this custom. Since when does a person have to sharpen their teeth to eat human flesh?
I suggest you start getting good information from books like this:
The Anthropology of Modern Human Teeth: Dental Morphology and Its Variation in Recent Human Populations by G Richard Scott, II Turner Cambridge University Press
Teeth filing is found in various societies outside of Africa like in Indonesia for example:
I suppose these folks sharpened their teeth to eat people too!
Seriously Mrs. Doubtfire, studies done by anthropologists who've been studying cultures for years are a heck of alot more reliable than wild speculations and presumptions made by European explorers from the 1800s.
quote: It is quite evident that whilst these black savages (including pygmies who were amongst the worst cannibals) were swinging through the branches of trees in order to ambush members of other tribes they were inclined in their more leisurly pursuits to file their teeth to make them look more aggressive. This also had the dual purpose of getting hold of the arm of a captive live meal.
ROTFLH So Pygmies are now swinging through the trees like wild chimpanzees and ambushing humans to make meals out of them?!!
Pygmies are among the most peaceful peoples in the world who make their living by hunting and gathering, and that's hunting animals by the way.
I recommend this book to you also:
Efe Pygmies: Archers of the African Rain Forest by Dr. William F. Wheeler
description: Efe pygmies: Archers of the African Rain Forest is a sumptuously illustrated tome that will long grace my coffee table. The main part of the book - a subtle photographic study depicting the Efe subsisting precariously but harmoniously in the depths of the Ituri forest - is preceded by a brief but fascinating scene-setting section of white-on-black text.
The author presents vivid visual and verbal images of his subjects making baskets, carrying hunting nets, filing their teeth, smoking tobacco, playing music, dispatching a net-caught antelope, touchingly expressing grief at the death of a newborn, and fleeing from their leaf huts into the night beneath a cracking and crashing, lightning-weakened tree.
Skillful, intimate photography makes us yearn for the easy laughter and simplicity of these gentle, peaceful people, yet we are simultaneously made aware of the dangers and discomforts they must constantly face.
It is a fitting tribute to a people as "primitive" and untouched by global culture as any on earth, and the precariousness of their independence. Moreover, it is a compelling and persuasive insight into our own hunting and gathering origins, and the thoughts, feelings, and reactions we all share as part of the human family.
While William Wheeler's book may not lead us to put on treebark loin cloths and chase wildlife through the forest, it is an evocative portrayal of another culture, one that can teach us something about how to live surrounded by danger and dark forces and yet keep on reverentially singing, laughing, and living for the moment...
Sorry but there was no mention of any traditions of cannibalism, because there are non.
I noticed that all of your so-called evidence is confined soley to old accounts of European explorers who know little to nothing of the culture of the natives. Why is that? Why can't you provide any real hard evidence that any of these peoples you mentioned were wild man-hungry savages? We are waiting on that
quote:On the other hand,at that time, the slightly more civilised Egyptian men were in the habit of cosmetically enhancing their maleness, by sitting and filing their nails,circumcising themselves, touching up their eyes with black eye-liner, walking about semi-naked in see-through clothing and writing homo-erotic love poetry to the dolcet tones of the Egyptian harp.
Yes it's true that Egyptian men adorned themselves with make-up and were very much into keeping their appearance and hygene, yet you speak as if this is somehow efeminate. There are cultures in Africa and in Asia where men traditionally wore make-up but such customs were never thought of as being as feminent. And since when is being circumcised efeminate?! As for being semi-naked or wearing see-through clothes, there is nothing feminent or even sexual at all considering that the environment was sunny and hot year round. All peoples who live in such envirionments wore similar clothing! It's true that the Egyptians were famous for their love poetry, but can you please give any examples of anything homo-erotic?? I think not. Besides, YOU of all people can't be talking about how efeminate or gay others are. This coming from a British she-male nanny! LOL
quote:History cannot be denied, and it is said that it repeats itself. We have seen that Egyptian homosexuality had influenced the later cultures of people like the Greeks and the Romans as much else of Egyptian culture did. And when we look at the Egyptian culture today, we find that maleness defines itself in inappropriate touching, kissing, embracing, and the holding of hands. Now in slightly more advanced cultures in the West for example, this is quite frowned upon, and indeed any young men caught walking down the road holding hands or kissing in the street in England, for example, are likely to be beaten up by their peers.
You are right about ONE thing. History cannot be denied! Yet I have never heard anything about Greco-Roman homosexuality somehow being derived from Egypt!! Let's face the facts. While nobody is saying homosexuality didn't exist in Egypt, the fact of the matter is that the Book of the Dead, in Pr En Heru-aka(Book of the Coming Forth by Day and by Night) lists homosexuality as one of the confessions of sin. That said, I seriously doubt it was a common thing. Greco-Roman society on the other hand not only tolerated it but even encouraged it. Male-male sexual bonds were believed to encourage masculinity in those societies. The Greeks even had the custom of pedarasty in which a male youth was to be tutored by an older male lover!! Such a thing is really not that surprising in male-dominated societies where women were suppressed. Fortunately Egypt was not one of them.
quote:It is often said that this inappropriate touching, holding of hands, embracing and kissing of male peers is not sexualised. However, if one travels only a relatively short distance from Egypt to Iran, one finds there an entirely different opinion. The Iranian Muslims do in fact consider this behaviour to be sexualised and effiminate and it is totally forbidden. In fact, should this behaviour advance in further sexualised behaviour (as there is the potential) such as penetration, then the Iranian and Islamic punishment is death. Those found in such a position are allowed, however, to choose their mode of execution, either splitting in two with a sword, throwing off the top of a building, being buried alive, or hung. Indeed some 4OOO or more have been summarily disposed of in these various ways within the last decade.
It depends on what is considered sexual behavior! In some societies like in Africa, women and even some men can kiss on the lips or hold hands but this meant nothing sexual at all! As for the Near-East, some societies also condoned homosexual behavior until the advent of Islam but even then certain members of the elite continued to engage in homosexual practices.
quote:It is simply no good people denying their history or being in denial regarding their current customs and behaviours for the only reason that Egyptian men behave as they do today is as a result of what their ancestors were doing.
You're right that it is no good to deny history customs and behaviors! But it is just as bad to make up history, customs, and behaviors also!! It is lying plain and simple and it is what you have been doing for some time now. Just like you have probably been lying about your sexuality! Posts: 26243 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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from that vague looking picture you guys get homosexuality???????? and these people teach at universities.
Posts: 134 | Registered: Mar 2005
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Mrs. Doubtfire gets most of her information from the Egyptologist Wallace-Budge of the Egyptian Antiquities department of the British Museum. He was an eminent scholar and his work is still referred to as the leading expert on Osirisism. Of course Osirisism includes the practise of ritual funeral murder, mass sacrificial murder, Egyptian cannibalism, and the customs of the Sudani people and all Nilotic tribes, most of whom were cannibals. Not only did they eat fresh corpses, the Egyptians and others were in the habit of digging up bodies and eating them. Some of them were deliberately dried and buried to improve the flavour and texture. Posts: 304 | From: egypt | Registered: Dec 2005
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Why Mrs. Doubtfire are you talking such garbage? Are you really this upset over the Celt Cannibals that you have to make such crazy claims about the Nilotic people and the Egyptian people?
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
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Obviously, King, has never heard of EA Wallis Budge. Let me enlighten him. Wallis Budge, M.A., Litt.D, D.Litt, D.Lit, F.S.A. was keeper of the Egyptian and Assyrian Antiquities in the British Museum. He was a world expert on Nilotic and Sudani people and their religious beliefs. He was a most eminent scholar who prepared for publication the Facsimile of the Papyrus of Ani for the Trustees of the British Museum. He wrote several books based on his own research and those of the great travellers and missionaries, Mungo Park, Burton, Speke, Junker, Stanley, Sir Harry Johnston, Livingstone, Kraph, Nassau and George Grenfell. You will find that all the modern research is based upon all these great people.
Now, King, what precisely are YOUR qualifications which qualify you to trash the work of the great people in African History, not to mention of course, the classical writers, or are you just another empty can making a lot of noise? Posts: 304 | From: egypt | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Mrs. Doubtfire: Obviously, King, has never heard of EA Wallis Budge. Let me enlighten him. Wallis Budge, M.A., Litt.D, D.Litt, D.Lit, F.S.A. was keeper of the Egyptian and Assyrian Antiquities in the British Museum. He was a world expert on Nilotic and Sudani people and their religious beliefs. He was a most eminent scholar who prepared for publication the Facsimile of the Papyrus of Ani for the Trustees of the British Museum. He wrote several books based on his own research and those of the great travellers and missionaries, Mungo Park, Burton, Speke, Junker, Stanley, Sir Harry Johnston, Livingstone, Kraph, Nassau and George Grenfell. You will find that all the modern research is based upon all these great people.
Now, King, what precisely are YOUR qualifications which qualify you to trash the work of the great people in African History, not to mention of course, the classical writers, or are you just another empty can making a lot of noise?
Sorry, but...
quote:Originally posted by ausar: Even though I don't agree with Mrs. Doubtfire's opinions, it is entitled to give them and not be ridiculed because of them. What we should simply do is refute the notions in a scholarly manner. If Mrs. Dubfire shows its immaturity then simply it ignore it and I think then the message might come across.
Mrs. Doubfire gets mosts of the information from a now deceased Egyptologist named E.A. Wallis Budge who wrote a two volume book entitled Osiris and the Egyptian Resurection. In the following book Budge compares the customs and traditions of many African groups to ancient Egyptian pratices and one such happens to be cannibalism. One must understand that Budge was a product of his time period and held many of the same racist streotypes against Africans that such scholars held at his period. His volumes are relativly good but should be taken with a pinch of salt. The prejudice and Victorian ideaology of many of the people he cites comes through in many pages.
One group described in the texts as being notorious cannibals are the Azande. The Azande were first boosted up because of their supposed noble ''Hamitic'' lineage as opposed to Bantu Central Africans. As far as the Dinka or any other Nilotic group I find cannibalism unlikely. E.E. Evans-Pritchard spent years living with all the Nilotic tribes and does not record cannibalism one time amongst the Nilotic tribes of southern Sudan.
Posts: 26243 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Mrs. Doubtfire: Obviously, he hasnt got any as Mrs. Doubtfire thought, my dears. hahaha
And obviously you're a troll distracting from the topic which you yourself touched on.
Exactly what do the Egyptians have to do with this Greek tradition?
Zeus and Ganymedes are the mythological motif of real-life situations in Greek society.
Please tell and cite evidence that homosexuality was prevalent in Egypt, let alone influential to the Greek's society.
Posts: 26243 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Mrs. Doubtfire is not a troll, dear, any more than you are an intellectual.
It takes a great deal of diplomacy and ability to talk on any subject, and when you have finished looking down that toilet-paper tube, you could discover life has a great deal more to offer to anyone with the ability to drop to any level of intelligence, even to yours. Posts: 304 | From: egypt | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Mrs. Doubtfire: Mrs. Doubtfire is not a troll, dear, any more than you are an intellectual.
It takes a great deal of diplomacy and ability to talk on any subject, and when you have finished looking down that toilet-paper tube, you could discover life has a great deal more to offer to anyone with the ability to drop to any level of intelligence, even to yours.
LOL Sorry my dear, but one does not have to be an intellectual to know that all you do is post ridiculous nonsense with an air of imperialist racism from the 1800s which seems to be your only source of info.
You need to make the discovery in YOUR life that the world and peoples in it are not what the British Empire thought it was.
In the mean time I suggest you use that toilet tissue to clean the rubbish from your mouth, deary.
Posts: 26243 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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'And when we look at the Egyptian culture today, we find that maleness defines itself in inappropriate touching, kissing, embracing, and the holding of hands. Now in slightly more advanced cultures in the West for example, this is quite frowned upon, and indeed any young men caught walking down the road holding hands or kissing in the street in England, for example, are likely to be beaten up by their peers.'
Just how long is it since you have been in the UK? I live here and the sight of two gay men/women holding hands or kissing would not insight the majority of the british public to any sort of reaction. The only people who do are the knuckle dragging pond dwellers that feel threatened by it because of their own sexual ambiguity!
I also dont think that the tomb painting shows anything more than brothers or close friends and if I had seen it withour comments it would never have occurred to me either!
-------------------- Success......... is a journey
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I have come across loads of references to the superstitious concept of when a child is born a jinn child is born of the opposite gender in the 'netherworld'.
Could this be the an earlier version of this superstition?
Possibly this tomb represents a human that had ambuigious gender and the jinn ended up being of the same gender?
Posts: 5744 | From: Minneapolis, Mn USA | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by sonomod: I have come across loads of references to the superstitious concept of when a child is born a jinn child is born of the opposite gender in the 'netherworld'.
Could this be the an earlier version of this superstition?
Possibly this tomb represents a human that had ambuigious gender and the jinn ended up being of the same gender?
I seriously doubt it.
First off, the tomb painting obviously depicts two human males who happen to look so much a like, they could be twins.
And second, Jinn were part of Middle Eastern belief and not really Egyptian, although the Egyptians did hold beliefs in spirits and spirit beings I don't think they had anything analogous to Jinn
Posts: 26243 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote: I have come across loads of references to the superstitious concept of when a child is born a jinn child is born of the opposite gender in the 'netherworld'.
Could this be the an earlier version of this superstition?
Possibly this tomb represents a human that had ambuigious gender and the jinn ended up being of the same gender?
That is not the jinn but the qarina. Qarina is modern Egypt is suposed to be a double born of a child. Also Egyptian female and male children have the ukt which is a sister that lives underground.
Qarina goes more back to the Ka concept in ancient Egypt.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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Your posts are hilarious--a great tonic and good for the health.
This thing about teeth filing and cannibalism makes me bare my teeth--with laughter. But question though: how come Jeff "I prefer darkmeat, preferably sauteed" Dahmer did not file his teeth for his chomping down on human thigh flesh.
And "Armin "let's make a hot dog together" Meiwes also didn't need to file his incisors to cook and eat the privates and other parts of his willing victim.
I mention Armin because he was in the news this week--for a new trial and also he's in the planning stages for a movie. Hannibal Lecter--please move over.
By the way, both are of German stock. Any comments?
Posts: 5492 | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:Originally posted by lamin: To Mrs Doubtfire.
Your posts are hilarious--a great tonic and good for the health.
This thing about teeth filing and cannibalism makes me bare my teeth--with laughter. But question though: how come Jeff "I prefer darkmeat, preferably sauteed" Dahmer did not file his teeth for his chomping down on human thigh flesh.
And "Armin "let's make a hot dog together" Meiwes also didn't need to file his incisors to cook and eat the privates and other parts of his willing victim.
I mention Armin because he was in the news this week--for a new trial and also he's in the planning stages for a movie. Hannibal Lecter--please move over.
By the way, both are of German stock. Any comments?
As I've said before, teeth-filing has absolutely NOTHING to do with cannibalism. Those peoples who did/do practice ritual cannibalism like in New Guinea, never beheld such a custom.
All experts agree that teeth filing, in those societies that practiced it, were done for cosmetic reasons because those societies saw sharp teeth as beautiful.
Posts: 26243 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
I say let's keep Mrs Doubtfire on this board. She/he/it is a riot. Sometimes the days are a dull and we need a good laugh to get the blood flowing.
Posts: 5492 | Registered: Nov 2004
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