It is interesting that, during most of the Pharaonic period, lions were relatively few in Egypt, but were at the same time significant to the Pharaonic Egyptians. Today, we know of no wild lions in Egypt. Their number declined steadily as the more lush climate of the prehistoric period faded into the desert climate that most of Egypt knows today, and as the inhabitable land of Egypt became more and more densely populated. However, it was probably during the prehistoric times that they became a symbol with religious associations. It is likely that the connection between the king and the lion grew from the tribal chiefs hunting these animals during the Predynastic period, just as they did Hippopotamus and Crocodiles, which no longer inhabit Egyptian waters above Lake Nasser.
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According to this website here is another interesting fact about lion iconography in ancient Kmt.
2. Ivory lion from early Formative Phase of Ancient Kemet (Paris: Louvre). Probably a piece from a board game. The lion as a symbol of royal power derived from the Sudan. http://www.hp.uab.edu/image_archive/um/umd.htmlPosts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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The Romans were famous for using Asiatic lions in the Gladiator games and played a major role in hunting them to extinction everywhere except India where the last small populations remain.
They were not uncommon in the Levant in Biblical times:
Lions - the most powerful of all carnivorous animals. Although not now found in Palestine, they must have been in ancient times very numerous there. They had their lairs in the forests (Jer. 5:6; 12:8; Amos 3:4), in the caves of the mountains (Cant. 4:8; Nah. 2:12), and in the canebrakes on the banks of the Jordan (Jer. 49:19; 50:44; Zech. 11:3). http://www.ccel.org/e/easton/ebd/ebd/T0002300.htmlPosts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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One question that I've always had was why the female lion (Sekhmet) was more prominent in Egypt, while the male lion (Apedemak) was more prominent in Nubia??
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Apedemak is a very illusive deity, I have been trying for a long time to find out the meaning behind Apedemak. Why is it that Apedemak became popular amongst the Kushites? Their seems to be a real big mystery behind Apedemak.
quote: One question that I've always had was why the female lion (Sekhmet) was more prominent in Egypt, while the male lion (Apedemak) was more prominent in Nubia??
Actually, the ancient Egyptians had a male lion deity known as Ma'ahes[sp] whose nome was somewhere in Lower Egypt.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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It is generally assumed that around 80-100 AD the Asian lion had become extinct in Greece and in the rest of Europe. In Western-Asia they remained widespread for the time being. In the Holy Land lions disappeared during the Crusades. In Pakistan the Asian lion was exterminated in 1810, in Turkey in 1870. In Iraq the last lion died in 1918 and in Iran (Persia) the last Asian lion was spotted by railway workers in 1942.
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quote:Originally posted by Salsassin: It is generally assumed that around 80-100 AD the Asian lion had become extinct in Greece and in the rest of Europe. In Western-Asia they remained widespread for the time being. In the Holy Land lions disappeared during the Crusades. In Pakistan the Asian lion was exterminated in 1810, in Turkey in 1870. In Iraq the last lion died in 1918 and in Iran (Persia) the last Asian lion was spotted by railway workers in 1942.
thanks for the info.
man, imagine how different the landscape of the ancient world was compared to now.
ps. thanks rasol
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quote:Originally posted by ausar: Actually, the ancient Egyptians had a male lion deity known as Ma'ahes[sp] whose nome was somewhere in Lower Egypt.
I'm aware of this, but why was Sekhmet more popular? Were there any female lion deities in Nubia?
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Lions were not important to the Egyptians because they existed or were hunted any more than wild bulls existed.
These animals were symbolically important because they formed the basic elements of the Egyptian religious system set out according to the Zodiac (what was happening in the universe) and the time period involved. The Age of the lion gave way to the ram and the ram gave way to the age of the Bull, and the age of the Bull gave way to the age of the Fish at the time of Christ at the dawning of the age of Pices. Just as the fish was an important symbol of the Zodiac to the Christians, so was the Bull to Osiris and the ram to Amun and so forth. They represented the various ages of religious development. For the Egyptians the actual existance of these animals was only of religious, solar, magical and metaphysical importance. Posts: 304 | From: egypt | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Mrs. Doubtfire: Lions were not important to the Egyptians because they existed or were hunted any more than wild bulls existed.
and then..
quote:These animals were symbolically important because they formed the basic elements of the Egyptian religious system set out according to the Zodiac (what was happening in the universe) and the time period involved. The Age of the lion gave way to the ram and the ram gave way to the age of the Bull, and the age of the Bull gave way to the age of the Fish at the time of Christ at the dawning of the age of Pices. Just as the fish was an important symbol of the Zodiac to the Christians, so was the Bull to Osiris and the ram to Amun and so forth. They represented the various ages of religious development. For the Egyptians the actual existance of these animals was only of religious, solar, magical and metaphysical importance.
A contradiction.
As far as the zodiac thing, where did you get this?
Lions and fish were animal totems which symbolized things from nomes to gods. That was the signifance of animals to Egypt.
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Djehuti: It is a well known fact that the ancient Egyptians were into astrology and they possessed a Zodiac. I really cannot believe that you are not aware of this, and I am beginning to think you are just trying make arguments purely for effect. Have you not noticed in your studies of Egypt that at certain periods, various animals were of importance, the importance of the Lion gave way to the Ram, and the Ram to the Bull. These animals did not have such importance at other times, although there was some overlap.
Egypt was not into totem poles as were the shaman indians, and I really think you ought to brush up a little on Egyptian religion, after all, all Egyptian history does revolve around it. Posts: 304 | From: egypt | Registered: Dec 2005
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Since Syria had bears (Ursus arctos syriacus), and Egypt had regular intercourse with her, does anyone know what significance or non significance of the bear in egyptian culture.
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quote:Originally posted by Mrs. Doubtfire: Djehuti: It is a well known fact that the ancient Egyptians were into astrology and they possessed a Zodiac. I really cannot believe that you are not aware of this, and I am beginning to think you are just trying make arguments purely for effect. Have you not noticed in your studies of Egypt that at certain periods, various animals were of importance, the importance of the Lion gave way to the Ram, and the Ram to the Bull. These animals did not have such importance at other times, although there was some overlap.
Egypt was not into totem poles as were the shaman indians, and I really think you ought to brush up a little on Egyptian religion, after all, all Egyptian history does revolve around it.
I am quite aware that the Egyptians were very much into astrology since prehistoric times and no doubt had a zodiac, but what does this have to do with the Western/Greek Zodiac that you speak of?
LOL And I suggest you look up the definition of totems and do more research on the concept of totemism, because it has nothing to do with the poles of the Native Americans of the Pacific!!
I suggest YOU brush up on Egyptian religion and beliefs! Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by BigMix: Since Syria had bears (Ursus arctos syriacus), and Egypt had regular intercourse with her, does anyone know what significance or non significance of the bear in egyptian culture.
What is this "regular intercourse"?!
The Egyptians had trade yes, but there really wasn't that much significant influence from Syria unless you count the Hyksos invasion.
There were however adoptions of Syrian gods like Rasheph, Qadesh, and Anat. Other than that, I don't know of any.
I don't think the Egyptians ever had a foreign totem such as a bear.
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Intercourse is exactly what you meant. "Intercultural actvities".
Concerning the Bear and ancient Egypt, I know that the records are limited, but I will do some research. The Egyptians if I'm not mistaken got exotic animals from punt, so in the least they were quite aware of their environment as well as the environment of others.
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The primary reason why the lion was so significant in Egypt is because it was associated with the star Sirius. As the Babylonians had a Zodiac, so probably did the Egyptians, after all they were the more advanced so it is said. Certainly there was a Zodiac found at Dendera. Posts: 304 | From: egypt | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Mrs. Doubtfire: The primary reason why the lion was so significant in Egypt is because it was associated with the star Sirius. As the Babylonians had a Zodiac, so probably did the Egyptians, after all they were the more advanced so it is said. Certainly there was a Zodiac found at Dendera.
I never denied the Egyptians having a 'zodiac' of their own. If I recall, the star Sirius was associated with the Pharaonic ancestors.
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by BigMix: Intercourse is exactly what you meant. "Intercultural actvities".
Concerning the Bear and ancient Egypt, I know that the records are limited, but I will do some research. The Egyptians if I'm not mistaken got exotic animals from punt, so in the least they were quite aware of their environment as well as the environment of others.
The Egyptians had a particular liking of Punt because they considered that land as ancestral and sacred. I don't think the Egyptians felt that way Syria. They conducted trade with them yes, but I don't they saw it as being important as that of Punt, and I don't know if they brought any Syrian animals back.
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I can say the Egyptians had three forms of calendar, the Sothic, the lunar and the solar. The Sothic is reference to the Sothic Star of course which is Sirius. That is where the soul of the risen Osiris is supposed to be!! It is also associated with the lion.
Posts: 304 | From: egypt | Registered: Dec 2005
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Under Sahure (5th dynasty) Syrian bears were brought to Egypt [1]. These relatively docile bears were kept on leashes. The earliest known captive polar bear was housed by Ptolemy II in his private zoo at Alexandria.
Bear, 5th Dynasty Excerpt Source: Scientific American
quote:Originally posted by Mrs. Doubtfire: I can say the Egyptians had three forms of calendar, the Sothic, the lunar and the solar. The Sothic is reference to the Sothic Star of course which is Sirius. That is where the soul of the risen Osiris is supposed to be!! It is also associated with the lion.
Yes, so that's why Pharoahs associated Syrius as being a heaven for kings. Note there are various other cultures in Africa where stars are associated with the souls of dead kings and rulers.
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Under Sahure (5th dynasty) Syrian bears were brought to Egypt [1]. These relatively docile bears were kept on leashes. The earliest known captive polar bear was housed by Ptolemy II in his private zoo at Alexandria.
Bear, 5th Dynasty Excerpt Source: Scientific American
Interesting. By the way, how exactly did Ptolemy II obtain a polar bear?! Polar bears come from the north pole, so were there any expeditions there or were these recieved by a trade network to there??
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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clueless as to how Ptolemy could have obtained a polar bear, but let's not forget that the ancients travelled and traded far and wide. I can see how easily they could have gotten into the north through Armenia, and that in itself opens up a lot of possibilities.
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clueless as to how Ptolemy could have obtained a polar bear, but let's not forget that the ancients travelled and traded far and wide. I can see how easily they could have gotten into the north through Armenia, and that in itself opens up a lot of possibilities.
Huh??
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Ancient Lion Skeleton Found In Egyptian Tomb
by Jenny Dolphin
The discovery of the skeleton of a male lion in the tomb of King Tutankhamen's wet nurse Maïa in the city of Memphis, Egypt, has lent weight to the theory that ancient Egyptians worshipped lions.
The lion was discovered in the tomb, located in Saqqara burial ground in the Nile Valley, in November 2001 by a team of archaeologists excavating the area. The tomb itself dates back to 1330 BC but the remains were probably not placed inside it until centuries later.
Historically, the Egyptians have depicted the lion as a deity with human attributes, a well-known example being the Sphinx. It was known that lions were bred and buried during the pharaonic dynasties but researchers had never found interred remains.
Excavation leader Dr. Alain Zivie said of the find: "We knew from pharaonic inscriptions that lions existed in ancient Egypt and were buried in these tombs, but we had never found one until now."
The lion remains were unearthed in a part of Maïa's tomb dedicated to Bastet, the goddess with the head of a cat.
The room was littered with animal bones, however the lion skeleton stood out because of its size. The bones are several of the largest ever recorded for a male lion.
Lions may have been raised in sanctuaries and fed and buried ritualistically. It is now deemed certain that they were part of the cult of animal worship that characterised Late and Hellenistic Egypt.
The "virtually complete, undisturbed skeleton" was laid out on a rock next to a wall. It appeared to have been partially preserved but was not wrapped in linen.
The discolouration and mineral deposits on the bones were comparable to those of mummified cats found in the same catacombs, indicating that the lion may also have been mummified.
The body was oriented to the east and the head pointed to the north. The skull had been partly crushed.
Dr Zivie commented: "The lion is full of symbolism. It represents strength and fierceness. The lion is the king of the animals, but he's also the animal of the kings of Egypt and he's connected, in particular, to the goddesses, many of whom are depicted with lion faces."
Speculation has arisen that this particular lion was either believed to be an incarnation of, or was a dedication to, the god Mahes, who had a lion's head. Mahes was a venerated figure in the "city of the lion", Leontopolis, and he also bred lions.
University of Chicago Egyptologist Dr. Emily Teeter offered an alternative explanation – that the ancient Egyptians believed the lion represented Mahes' mother Sekhmet. Sekhmet, who has the head of a lioness, is believed to represent the cat goddess Bastet's darker side.
Not all experts agree, however, that the discovery is significant. Forensic anthropologist Robert Pickering of the Buffalo Bill Historical Center in Cody, Wyoming, said the fact that no flesh was preserved and no bandages were found makes the mummification claim dubious.
"It seems to be treated different from other animals that were entombed as part of ritual," Pickering said. "Maybe this lion's importance is as a family pet rather than as a representative of a god. The context doesn't seem to fit."
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^^I don't know what the big deal is. Lions were just one of many African animals that were present in Egypt (which IS in Africa). Maybe it is because that is your screen name?
But nice post for a change, Lion. You actually presented accurate info. Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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do you mean Indochina, as in Vietnam, Cambodia, etc. or Indonesia? LOL. but Djehuti is Filipino.
Posts: 752 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by walklikeanegyptian: LOL he is probably racist too.
Do you mind if I ask that you keep to the theme of the post? I would really appreciate commentary on the topic of this post not side issues. You are always free to start a new thread on whatever you would wish right? Thanks.
The Lion!
Posts: 236 | From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Oct 2005
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actually i did respond to the theme of the post. you asked Djehuti if there were lions in Indochina, and i stated that he is NOT Indochinese, and asked if you mistook Indonesia for Indochina. i was responding to your post.
Posts: 752 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by walklikeanegyptian: LOL he is probably racist too.
Do you mind if I ask that you keep to the theme of the post? I would really appreciate commentary on the topic of this post not side issues. You are always free to start a new thread on whatever you would wish right? Thanks.
The Lion!
LOL I think you struck a nerve, Walk! Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by walklikeanegyptian: actually i did respond to the theme of the post. you asked Djehuti if there were lions in Indochina, and i stated that he is NOT Indochinese, and asked if you mistook Indonesia for Indochina. i was responding to your post.
I'm not of Indonesian heritage either, but I think Lion can't tell the difference between Indo-China and Indonesia anyway! Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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so where is the vicious Lion anyway? Indonechia is how he spelled "Indochina" actually, so maybe he didn't mean Indonesia OR Indochina and we are giving him too much credit.
quote:Originally posted by walklikeanegyptian: ROAR!!
Your roar sounds like that of Sekhmet the Egyptian lioness goddess of power and fury, yet, I sense that you are as sweet as Hathor, my lioness goddess of love.
Could I hear that roar again?
The Lion!
Posts: 236 | From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Oct 2005
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^^Walk, let's not entertain the troll claiming to be a majestic feline.
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Hotep2u: According to French Africanist Claude RILLY, and according to allegedly related languages, the god Apede-mak was originally a supreme deity associated with creation, yet not likely with the lion, only later acquiring this feature.
Posts: 307 | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Mrs. Doubtfire: I can say the Egyptians had three forms of calendar, the Sothic, the lunar and the solar. The Sothic is reference to the Sothic Star of course which is Sirius. That is where the soul of the risen Osiris is supposed to be!! It is also associated with the lion.
Yes, so that's why Pharoahs associated Syrius as being a heaven for kings. Note there are various other cultures in Africa where stars are associated with the souls of dead kings and rulers.
Reminds me of a scene from The Lion King...
"The great kings of the past look down on us from those stars. Those stars will always be there to guide you...and so will I."
Maybe an Egyptian pharaoh really said that to his son!
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