High-Resolution mtDNA Studies of the Indian Population: Implications for Palaeolithic Settlement of the Indian Subcontinent.
Barnabas S, Shouche Y, Suresh CG.
Division of Biochemical Sciences, National Chemical Laboratory, Pune 411008, India.
Summary The population of the Indian subcontinent represents a very complex social and cultural structure. Occupying a geographically central position for the early modern human migrations, indications are that the founder group that migrated out of East Africa also reached India. In the present study we used the twin strategy of mapping the whole mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) using the standard 14 restriction enzymes, and sequencing the non-transcribed HVSI region, to derive maximum maternal lineages from a sample of non-tribal Indians. The essential features of the reduced median network of the two datasets were the same. Both showed two demographic expansions of two major haplogroups, 'M' and 'N'. The reduced median network was drawn with inputs from other studies on the Indian population, and correlated with data from other ethnic populations. The coalescence time of expansions and genetic diversity were estimated. A reduced median network was also drawn combining data from studies on Africans, Southeast Asians and West-Eurasians, tracing the migration of 'M' from East Africa to India. A time estimate of the migration of major mtDNA haplogroups from Africa was attempted. The comparison of a set of Indian maternal lineages belonging to different geographical regions of the country, with other populations revealed the in-situ differentiation and antiquity of the Indian population. Our analysis places the 'southern route' migration as the source of haplogroup 'M'. Multiple migrations might have brought the other major haplogroups, 'N' and 'R', found in our sample to India. Archaeological evidence of modern humans in the subcontinent supports this mtDNA study.
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quote:The coalescence time of expansions and genetic diversity were estimated. A reduced median network was also drawn combining data from studies on Africans, Southeast Asians and West-Eurasians, tracing the migration of 'M' from East Africa to India.
Does this mean that the questions about the origin of M and M1 has been resolved? It seems to suggest East Africa as the origin.
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quote:Both showed two demographic expansions of two major haplogroups, 'M' and 'N'.
It is very interesting that both M and N made it as far as Australia, which would indicate the antiquity and *possible* African origin of both of these lineages.
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quote:Time estimate of the migration of major mtDNA haplogroups from Africa was attempted. The comparison of a set of Indian maternal lineages belonging to different geographical regions of the country, with other populations revealed the in-situ differentiation and antiquity of the Indian population. Our analysis places the 'southern route' migration as the source of haplogroup 'M'
It's also noteworthy that the Andaman Islanders carry the greatest frequency of Haplogroup M, and the oldest Non-African lineages yet found:
Our analyses of complete mitochondrial DNA sequences from Onges and Great Andaman populations revealed two deeply branching clades that share their most recent common ancestor in founder haplogroup M, with lineages spread among India, Africa, East Asia, New Guinea, and Australia. This distribution suggests that these two clades have likely survived in genetic isolation since the initial settlement of the islands during an out-of-Africa migration by anatomically modern humans http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/308/5724/996
South Indians also have substantial non M mtdna, dating from 'what time' period?
This would seem to pose additional difficulties for and Indian to African spread of M1.
Meaning, not only is there no M1 or underived M in India, but the non M1 lineages, not found in Africa, are also quite old.
So and M outmigration and return to Africa would have also had to have been close to the original outmigration of early non Africans to begin with, in which case, it would constitute a Eurasian lineage in only the most superficial sense of the word.
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You will never be able to determine the time period for the spread of Indian people from Africa to India using DNA. This results, from the fact that there was and is no one group of "Blacks" in India. There are many different groups of "Blacks" in Indian in addition to other people who some would not call Blacks. For example, Black Indians speak three different language families: Austro-Asiatic, Dravidian and Indo-Aryan. Yet we can use textual, archaeological and skeletal evidence to support a migration of people from Africa to India. In the sub-continent of India, there were several main groups. The earliest inhabitants of India were the Negritos, and this was followed by the Proto-Australoid, the Mongoloid and the so-called mediterranean type which represent the ancient Egyptians and Kushites. The Proto-Australoid race, Mongoloid race and Africoid/ Mediterranean skeletal remains were all found at Harappan sites. The speech of this group of Austroloids is believed to be Austric, a specimen of this language survives in the Munda speech.(Thapar 1972,p.26) The Africoid/Mediterranean group is associated with Dravidian culture. The Negritos founded the earliest culture in the Indus Valley at Mehrgarh in 6000 B.C. They had domesticated goats and sheep and grew cereals. But India was never extensively urbanized before 2400 B.C. The antecedents of the Harappan culture are village sites of the Baluchistan hills, the Nal culture and the Makran coast to the West of the Indus delta. The ancient inhabitants of the Indus Valley were the Nubian Dravidian speakers. Today Brahui, Malto and Kurukh are Dravidian languages spoken in the Indus area. B.B. Lal (1963) and Indian Egyptologist has shown conclusively that the Dravidians originated in the Saharan area 5000 years ago. He claims they came from Kush, in the Fertile African Crescent and were related to the C-Group people who founded the Kerma dynasty in the 3rd millennium B.C. (Lal 1963) The Dravidians used a common black-and-red pottery, which spread from Nubia, through modern Ethiopia, Arabia, Iran into India as a result of the Proto-Saharan dispersal. The Nubian Dravidians were one of the cattle herding groups that made up the C-Group culture of Nubia Kush. Thundy has observed that: "If Kashi the holy place (alias Varanasi) is a Dravidian word, the name was bestowed on the place by the Dravidians after their homeland of Nubia, Upper Egypt,which is called Kush and Kashi in the Semitic languages". He added that: "...I view the common myth[of Isis and Osiris in Egypt and Kannaki and Kovalan in India] only as supporting the widely held theory that the Dravidians of India came from the Mediterranean region, particularly from Nubia, for ethnically and linguistically, the peoples of the two regions are strikingly similar". There is physical evidence which suggest an African origin for the Dravidians. The Dravidians live in South India. The Dravidian ethnic group includes the Tamil, Kurukh,Malayalam, Kananda (Kanarese), Tulu, Telugu and etc. The ancient Indo-Aryan writings make it clear that the Indians were dark-skinned (varna) and had flat noses. (Durant 1935, p.396) This fact is supported by the Ali Tiraavitar (Old Dravidians) who are black as their African brothers with a difference in hair texture. In ancient Tamil poems they are described as mamai (black). In addition, the ancient Dravidians practiced a matriarchal system in Kerala and South Kanara. In addition among the ali tiravitar, the system of inheritance passes from the uncle to his nephews, instead of to his sons (maru makkal Tayam) as in Africa. And in both South India and the Western Sudan of Africa, the dead were buried in terra cotta jars. Aravaanan (1980) has written extensively on the African and Dravidian relations. He has illustrated that the Africans and Dravidian share many physical similarities including the dolichocephalic indexes (Aravaanan 1980,pp.62-263), platyrrhine nasal index (Aravaanan 1980,pp.25-27), stature (31-32) and blood type (Aravaanan 1980,34-35). Aravaanan (1980,p.40) also presented much evidence for analogous African and Dravidian cultural features including the chipping of incisor teeth and the use of the lost wax process to make bronze works of arts (Aravaanan 1980,p.41). The Original homeland of the Dravidian speaking people was the Saharan zone of Middle Africa. We call the ancestors of the Dravidians the Proto/Saharans. The homeland of the Proto/Saharans was the Libyan and Sudanese deserts. It was in this region between 90006000 BC, that the elements of Proto/Dravidian culture were created.(Winters 1985) The Proto-Saharans claimed descent from the Maa or Fish Confederation. The Maa Confederation includes the Egyptians, Elamites, Dravidians, Manding, and Sumerians. In honor of this great ancestor Maa, they worshipped a god called :Amun, Amon or Amma. In addition to pay homage to Ma, the descendants of the Proto-Saharans use the term Ma, to denote greatness or highness, e.g., Manding:Maga, and Dravidian:Ma. Other Proto-Saharan tribes claimed direct descent from the great Maa, founder of the Fish Confederation. For example, the Manding call themselves Ma-nde (the children of Maa) and the Sumerian called themselves Mah-Gar-ri ( exalted God's children). Ethically the Proto-Dravidians were round-headed Mediterraneans of the ancient variety. Around 7000 BC, Mediterraneans of a fairly tall stature not devoid of negroid characteristics appear in the Sahara at Capsa (now called Cafsa). (Desanges 1981:424-25) These Mediterraneans are called Capsians. This group flourished in an area extending from the western most borders of north Africa, into the southern Sahara. Skeletons of the Mediterranean type have been found throughout Middle Africa, Southeast Asia, Mesopotamia, the IndoPakistan region and even Central Asia. It is no secret that the founders of ancient Egypt, Elam, Sumer and the Indus Valley were all of the Mediterranean type. In the ancient inscriptions many ProtoSaharans were called KUSHITES. These Kushites were also called Saka, Kushana, Kutians, Kus and Qus. (Lacouperie 1886:2829; Winters 1982) In the primary center of ProtoDravidian settlement in Middle Africa, they used a common black-and-red ware (BRW) and herded cattle, sheep and goats. They also possessed wheat and millet. (Winters 1985a) This supports Kohl's (1988:596) hypothesis that millet was introduced into Inner Asia from Africa. The Dravidians migrated out of the Sahara, due to population pressure and the search for sources of new metal reserves. Dravidian languages are predominately spoken southern India and Sri Lanka. There are around 125 million Dravidian speakers. These languages are genetically related to African languages. COMMON INDO-AFRICAN TERMS ENGLISH DRAVIDIAN SENEGALESE MANDING MOTHER AMMA AMA,MEEN MA FATHER APPAN,ABBA AMPA,BAABA BA PREGNANCY BASARU BIIR BARA SKIN URI NGURU,GURI GURU BLOOD NETTARU DERET DYERI KING MANNAN MAANSA,OMAAD MANSA GRAND BIIRA BUUR BA SALIVA TUPPAL TUUDDE TU CULTIVATE BEY ,MBEY BE BOAT KULAM GAAL KULU FEATHER SOOGE SIIGE SI, SIGI MOUNTAIN KUNRU TUUD KURU ROCK KALLU XEER KULU STREAM KOLLI KAL KOLI
The Dravidians are remnants of the ancient Black population who occupied most of ancient Asia and Europe. Menges (1966), using linguistic data "assumed an earlier habitat of the Dravidians far to the northwest on the plateau of Iran...an area extending still a little bit more to the north into what has become Turkistan". This view is now confirmed by archaeological evidence of an Indus culture in Inner Asia. (Brentjes 1983; Winters 1990) The Dravidians settled in Asia between 30002800 BC. (Winters 1985) From here the Dravidians spread into Central Asia, China, South and Southwest Asia. It was probably from Iran that bronze working radiated into Central and Southeast Asia. (Winters 1985b) The epicenter for the Dravidian dispersals in Asia was Iran. The motivation behind Dravidian dispersals was agropastoralism in the region and the search for new sources of metals for trade with Mesopotamia, the Indus valley and beyond. (Winters 1985a,1985b) This would explain the close relationship between Dravidian and Elamite on the one hand, and Dravidian, Manding , and Elamite on the other. (Winters 1985c,1989b) The Elamites lived in the Fars and the Bakhtiar valleys. This mountain area was named Elimaid in ancient times. The Elamites called themselves:Khatan. The capital city of the Elamites Susa ,was called: Khuz by the IndoEuropean speakers, and Kussi by the Elamites. The Chinese called the Elamites Kashti. The Armenians called the eastern Parthia: Kushana. The major Kushite group from Mesopotamia to northern India were the Kassites. The Kassites, who occupied the central Zagros were called Kashshu. This name agrees with Kaska, the name of the Hattians. P.N. Chopra,in The History of South India, noted that the Kassite language bears unmistakable affinity to the Dravidian group of languages. Similar pottery was used in West Asia. The pottery from Susa in Iran and Eridu in Mesopotamia of the fifth millennium BC are identical. Between 3700 and 3100 BC, Elam was under the influence of Uruk, as indicated by the shared art found at these sites during this period. By the end of the 4th millennium BC , we see the beginnings of distinctive Elamite culture in the western Fars, at the Kur Valley. Here at TeliMalyan we see the first ProtoElamite tablets written in the ProtoSaharan script. Other ProtoElamite writings soon appear at Susa. The authors of the ProtoElamite tablets were of ProtoSaharan origin. Malyan and Susa soon became the kingdoms of Anshan and Susa. These ProtoElamites soon spread to Tepe Sialk and Tepe Yahya which was reoccupied after being abandoned earlier due to ecological decay. The Proto-Saharans in Elam shared the same culture as their cousins in Egypt, Sumer, Elam and the Indus Valley. Vessels from the IVBI workshop at Tepe Yahya (c.21001700 BC), have a uniform shape and design. Vessels sharing this style are distributed from Soviet Uzbekistan, to the Indus Valley. In addition, as mentioned earlier we find common arrowheads at sites in the Indus Valley ,Iran, Egypt, Minoan Crete and early Heladic Greece. The evidence presented above makes it clear that archaeological, linguistic and skeletal evidence indicate that most Dravidian speaking Indians probably came from Middle Africa. There were some Dravidian speaking Indians who came to India from East Africa via Kumarinadu, but this is another story.
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"The DravidoAltaic Relationship". ARCHIV ORIENTALNI 55: 134139. Vamos-Toth Bator. 1983. TAMANA. Honolulu. _______. 1985. "Kodaly: A comparative Tamana study in Tamilland, Japan and the Carpathian Basin". PROCEEDINGS INTERNATIONAL SYMPOSIUM ON ASIAN STUDIES,1984. Hong Kong: Asian Research Service. Wendorf,F., Close, A.E. & Schild,R. 1985. "Prehistoric Settlements in the Nubian Desert", AMERICAN SCIENTIST 73. Wilson,J.V.K. 1974. INDOSUMERIAN. Oxford. Winters,Clyde Ahmad. 1983. "Blacks in ancient China Part 1, the Founders of Xia and Shang". JOURNAL OF BLACK STUDIES, 1(2):813. Winters,Clyde Ahmad. 1984a. "The Inspiration of the Harappan Talismanic Seals". TAMIL CIVILIZATION, 2(1):18. ___________.1984b. "The Indus Valley Writing is ProtoDravidian". JOURNAL OF TAMIL STUDIES, no. 25:50-64. ________.1984c. "Further Notes on Japanese and Tamil". INTERNATIONAL JOURNAL OF DRAVIDIAN LINGUISTICS, 13(2):347353. ______.1985a. "The ProtoCulture of the Dravidians, Manding and Sumerians". TAMIL CIVILIZATION, 3(1):l9. _____.1985b. "The Far Eastern Origin of the Tamils".JOURNAL OF TAMIL STUDIES, no.27:65-92. _______.1985c. "The Indus Valley writing and related scripts of the 3rd Millennium BC". INDIA PAST AND PRESENT, 2(1):13-19. _______________.1985d. "The Genetic Unity between the Dravidian, Elamite, Manding and Sumerian Languages". PROC. OF THE 6TH INTERNATIONAL SYMPOSIUM ON ASIAN STUDIES,1984, vol. 5:Asian Research Service ,Hong Kong:1413-1425. _______________. 1985d. "The African origin of glorious Dalits". DALIT VOICE, 4(2): 18. _______________.1986a. "The Dravidian origin of the mountain and water toponyms in Central Asia". JOURNAL OF CENTRAL ASIA, 9(2):141. _______________.1986b. "Dravidian and Magyar/Hungarian".INTERNATIONAL JOURNAL DRAVIDIAN LINGUISTIC, 15(2):175-189. _______________.1986c. "Dravidian Settlements in Ancient Polynesia". INDIA PAST AND PRESENT, 3 (2):225-241. _______________.1987. "The Harappan Script". JOURNAL OF TAMIL STUDIES,30. _______________.1988a. "The Dravidian and Manding Substratum in Tokharian". CENTRAL ASIATIC JOURNAL, 32(12):131-141. _______________.1988b."Common African and Dravidian Place Name Elements". SOUTH ASIAN ANTHROPOLOGIST, 9(1):33-36. ______________.1989a."Tamil, Sumerian,Manding and the Genetic Model", INTERNATIONAL JOURNAL OF DRAVIDIAN, 18(1):67-91. ______________.1989b."Review on Dr. Asko Parpola's 'Coming of the Aryas".INTERNATIONAL JOURNAL DRAVIDIAN LINGUISTIC, 18 (2):98-127. ______________.1989c."A Grammar of DravidoHarappan Writing".JOURNAL OF TAMIL STUDIES, 35:53-71. ______________.1990a. "The Dravidian Language of the Harappan Script",ARCHIV ORIENTALNI, 58(4):301-309. ______________.1990."The DravidoHarappan Colonization of Central Asia". CENTRAL ASIATIC JOURNAL, 34(12):120-144. _______________.(1999a). ProtoDravidian terms for cattle. International Journal of Dravidian Linguistics, 28, 91-98 . _______________.(1999b). Proto-Dravidian terms for sheep and goats. PILC Journal of Dravidian Studies, 9 (2), 183-87. _______________.(2000). Proto-Dravidian agricultural terms. International Journal of Dravidian Linguistics, 30 (1), 23-28. _____________, Afrocentrism: Myth or Science. http://www,lulu.com, 2005. _____________, Atlantis in Mexico. http://www,lulu.com, 2005. _____________, Teaching Ancient Afrocentric History. http://www,lulu.com, 2005. Young,L.M. 1982."The Shang of ancient China". CURRENT ANTHROPOLOGY 23(3):311314. Zvelebil,K. 1972. "Descent of the Dravidians". INTERNATIONAL JOURNAL DRAVIDIAN LINGUISTICS, 1(2):57-63. Zoltan Szabo.1985. "Common ancestral roots of the Magyar and Asiatic Languages". PROC. OF THE SIXTH INTERNATIONAL SYMPOSIUM ON ASIAN STUDIES 1984. Hong Kong:Asian Research Service. Vol. 6.
Lahovary, N , Dravidian Origins and the West, Madras: Longman ,1957.
Lal, B , "The Only Asian expedition in threatened Nubia:Work by an Indian Mission at Afyeh and Tumas", The Illustrated London Times , 20 April 1963.
Aravanan, K P , "Physical and cultural similarities between Dravidians and Africans", Journal of Tamil Studies 10, (1976)pages 23-27. Aravanan, K P , Dravidians and Africans , Madras, 1979.
Winters,Clyde Ahmad, "Review of Dr. Asko Parpolas' "The Coming of the Aryans". International Journal of Dravidian Linguistics 18, no2 (1989) , pages 98-127. Winters, Clyde Ahmad, "The Dravido Harappan Colonization of Central Asia", Central Asiatic Journal 34, no1-2 (1990), pages 120-144. Winters, Clyde Ahmad,"The Dravido-Harappan Language and the Harappan script", Orchiv Orientalni, 58, (1990) pages 301-309.
Winters, Clyde Ahmad, "Linguistic evidence for Dravidian influence on trade and Animal domestication in Central and East Asia", International Journal of Dravidian Linguistics,20, (2) (1991) pages 91-102.
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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Interesting response, and I will assume you are indeed Dr. Winters unless the forum moderators suggest otherwise.
Some comments,
quote:There are many different groups of "Blacks" in Indian in addition to other people who some would not call Blacks. For example, Black Indians speak three different language families: Austro-Asiatic, Dravidian and Indo-Aryan.
Yes, that's certainly correct.
quote:You will never be able to determine the time period for the spread of Indian people from Africa to India using DNA. This results, from the fact that there was and is no one group of "Blacks" in India.
Why would the number of "groups of Blacks" in India qualify the use of DNA as a tool for understanding the peopling of India?
Isn't it the case that it is DNA study that has helped confirm the fact that there are many distinctive Black peoples, and *not* simply one group of people who have can be presumed to have the same lineage simply becaue they have similar phenotype.
Isn't the notion that phenotype equates to lineage, that Blacks for instance, would therefore be singular race-group in biology, therefore a falsified root assumption of the Western ideology of race?
If so, then shouldn't we as African scholars grow beyound repetition of the root fallacies of racist scholarship?
Isn't it biased to refer to people like the Andaman Islanders [and Island of the coast of Thailand] as "Africans", when they are in fact direct descendants of the original, and Black, population of Eurasia.
In fact it is white Europeans, and not Black South East Asians who have been historically, recently and presently, "mixed" with Blacks from Africa.
I understand why Eurocentric scholars continue to blithly ignore these facts of biology, and repeat after the outdated racial anthropology of Coon, Seligman, Blumenbach, etc al. White supremacy ideology depends on repeating archaic nonsenses - they have no choice.
I have a more difficult time accepting Africans who repeat after them.
I once asked and African scholar on this forum why he chose to do so. The answer was -> "we have to work with what [they] give us".
In fact, it's very insulting because it implies that we as Africans, can't even think of our own ways of viewing our history.
But i'm going off on a tangent, so let me return now to your reply....
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote:Yet we can use textual, archeological and skeletal evidence to support a migration of people from Africa to India.
A valid theory is one which is supported by *all of the above*, and DNA evidence.
DNA evidence is sometimes disdained because it exposes the flaws in theories rooted otherwise in purely circumstantial evidence.
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quote:The Proto-Australoid race, Mongoloid race and Africoid/ Mediterranean skeletal remains were all found at Harappan sites.
There is no proof that any such races exist. The very fact that the physical variety you describe and all gradiations thereof are found natively virtually all over the world demonstrates this.
Specifically in Europe among so called Cro-Magnons: some resemble modern Africans, or Australians, based on objective anatomical measurement. - Chris Stinger, as well as East Asia, Australia and Paleolithic America.
According to anthroplogists TW Holliday, Eric Trinkous, etc.., this demonstrates that early populations were tropically adapted and had a morphology most similar to modern Africans, Australians, and Pacific Islanders. It does not show that they are members of a common race, culture group, or civilisation. In fact, as these populations have been in some cases isolated from one another for over 50 thousand years, and thousands of miles, it is unserious and misleading to the naive' to imply in any way that they were the product of a single civilisation.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote:The Proto-Australoid race, Mongoloid race and Africoid/ Mediterranean skeletal remains were all found at Harappan sites.
There is no proof that any such races exist. The very fact that the physical variety you describe and all gradiations thereof are found natively virtually all over the world demonstrates this.
Specifically in Europe among so called Cro-Magnons: some resemble modern Africans, or Australians, based on objective anatomical measurement. - Chris Stinger, as well as East Asia, Australia and Paleolithic America.
For a minute there, it almost sounded like the "generalized modern" we talked about earlier.
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Not to mention the fact that the Africoid/Medit catagory is precisely what Eurocentrists call Proto-K'zoid - nothing is changed here but the label, which attempts to hide the same concept!
All Africanists who repeat the root premises of the ws.t race construct are on a dead end path that leads right back to Eurocentrism.
The natural tendency is to believe that we can work with the same premises and just argue over the labels.
This is partly because it's easy to change the labels, but much more difficult to change the root premises - and with it ones own way of thinking.
Plus too few Africans have a good grounding in biology/anthropology or a genuine interest in it.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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Hi Thanks for your responses. I called these people Blacks to differentiate them from the other people who live in these areas. I am not calling these people based on Eurocentric views of race :Black. We have referred to ourselves as Blacks for millenia. The Shang of China called themselves li min "black heads"; the Sumerians also called themselves "black heads". The Malinke-Bambara ( or Mande speaking people of West Africa) term for race is Si, Si is also the Superlative for "Black(ness)", this means that they are the Si or 'Black people'. And even al-Jahiz, referred to the great dark skined people of his age "Blacks". As you can see Black people have called themselves Blacks long before the coming of the European. If you are to seek out your kar (black) ma (great), i.e., Karma ="Great Blackness", you must accept your identity as a Black man or woman. Calling yourself Black or Black people in other parts of the world is not being dominated by Eurocentric notions of race, it is just follwoing in the tradition of our Black ancestors. Our people have been proud to call themselves Blacks since forever, why should you or I feel ashamed to do so today. A luta continua (The struggle continues).
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: We have referred to ourselves as Blacks for millenia.
Thought Writes:
Nonsense. The word "Black" is an English specific word NOT an African word.
Right, though the color "black" itself is universally known, and has in fact, been referenced towards people before, in respective various foreign languages.
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quote:Originally posted by Supercar: Right, though the color "black" itself is universally known, and has in fact, been referenced towards people before, in respective various foreign languages.
Thought Writes:
Respectfully Supercar, I have to disagree. There in fact is no such thing as the color 'Black'. What we define as Black in a color scheme is actually the way our eyes precieve radiant energy. Each person precieves this energy differently based upon the uniqueness of their optic mechanism. I do agree however that the Ancient Egyptians recognized differences in melanin levels between Africans and Eurasians and among Africans as well.
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Respectfully Supercar, I have to disagree. There in fact is no such thing as the color 'Black'.
Are you suggesting that, if I were to post an image of "black paint", literally just the color itself, that people [unless color blind of course], irrespective of their tongue, will not have a word to describe the color?
quote:Thought2: What we define as Black in a color scheme is actually the way our eyes precieve radiant energy. Each person precieves this energy differently based upon the uniqueness of their optic mechanism. I do agree however that the Ancient Egyptians recognized differences in melanin levels between Africans and Eurasians and among Africans as well.
Matter of fact, the ancient Egyptians had a term for black, that they used in association with people and things; that term as we know it, is KEM/KM.
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Hi You can debate as long as you wish the "color" black. The fact remains that ancient and modern people like the Sumerians, Mande and Black nationalists in the United States had a shared ideational universal identification of themselves as black people, and were proud to call themselves "Black". As a result , of the history of Black people calling themselves 'black', there is no way you can say that calling yourself black is buying into European concepts of "race". It's just accepting our KARMA.
Clyde Winters
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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Of course, there were people who referenced themselves as "blacks"...in their own terms. Hence, the point is not to merely debate whether there exists extremely dark shade [as in the spectrum of 'visible' light], termed as "black" in English, but that people of diverse cultural backgrounds have their own terms in place to reference such.
-------------------- Truth - a liar penetrating device! Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Supercar: Right, though the color "black" itself is universally known, and has in fact, been referenced towards people before, in respective various foreign languages.
Thought Writes:
Respectfully Supercar, I have to disagree. There in fact is no such thing as the color 'Black'.
This argument is specious and pathetic. This "scholar" is the first I have seen to disprove the existence of colours! What next?
quote: What we define as Black in a color scheme is actually the way our eyes precieve radiant energy. Each person precieves this energy differently based upon the uniqueness of their optic mechanism.
I am now convinced that you have been perceiving black skinned people all along on a different energy gradiant?
It is altogether possible that Thought sees only a kladescopic array of colours on his jaundiced energy gradient "lunette" when he sees pale-skin peoples.
Well I never thought that it would come to this now on a board dedicated to the study and research of ancient Egypt.
Energy gradients!!! LOL!
quote: I do agree however that the Ancient Egyptians recognized differences in melanin levels between Africans and Eurasians and among Africans as well.
What is recognition of melanine differences but an acknowledgment of colour differences?
What is the reason for such circular arguments, such exercise in sheer futility?
Some of us need to go find a good paying 9-5 job instead of annoying serious scholars with rudeness, disingenious fallacies, and comical posturing!
The Lion!
Posts: 236 | From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Yet we can use textual, archeological and skeletal evidence to support a migration of people from Africa to India.
A valid theory is one which is supported by *all of the above*, and DNA evidence.
The Rasolian law! LoL. No my friend, DNA as applied to ethno-history is still a developing science, highly tentative and fledging.
This new science exists against a background of assumptions and theoretical framework. It has not yet attained the level of an absolute truth.
A good grasp of the methodology underlieing this discipline will immediately highlight its limitation which includes the abbreviated and abitrary scope of its coverage, the problem of dealing with often badly damaged fossile DNA, as well as the famous challenge of proper interpretation of factual data.
So bioanthropology as applied to history is just but another piece of evidence to consider along with the more credible traditional branches like anatomy, archeology, linguistics, mythology, classical writers...etc.
quote: DNA evidence is sometimes disdained because it exposes the flaws in theories rooted otherwise in purely circumstantial evidence.
Historical bio-anthropolgy (DNA historiography) is suspect because it is still largely underpinned by theoretical assumptions many of which are highly controversial and unresolved in the broader field of genetic science.
A novice would not be aware of these backdrop issues, preferring to chant a meaning mantra of scientific absolutism.
All intelligent people know that no scientist claims to have the absolute truth.
So, this confirms that Rasol is not a scientist. Otherwise his views would not be so parochial and assymetrical.
Posts: 236 | From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Supercar: Are you suggesting that, if I were to post an image of "black paint", literally just the color itself, that people [unless color blind of course], irrespective of their tongue, will not have a word to describe the color?
Thought Writes:
No, what I am stating is that Black humans have a RANGE of melanin levels. While the color Black as applied to paint would be standardized by a quality control system such as ISO9000. This black paint standard would therefore mean the same thing in different languages. Black as it applies to human melanin levels is much more subjective. In addition the term Black as applied to humans in the English language is used to describe characteristics much broader than melanin.
quote:Originally posted by Supercar: Matter of fact, the ancient Egyptians had a term for black, that they used in association with people and things; that term as we know it, is KEM/KM.
Thought Writes:
Dark skinned people, probably. Black as used in an English speaking context, probably not.
Posts: 2720 | Registered: May 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Supercar: Matter of fact, the ancient Egyptians had a term for black, that they used in association with people and things; that term as we know it, is KEM/KM.
Thought Writes:
Dark skinned people, probably. Black as used in an English speaking context, probably not.
Yawn!!!
The Lion!
Posts: 236 | From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: As a result , of the history of Black people calling themselves 'black'....
Thought Writes:
The word "Black" is an Indo-European word. History is written. There is no history of Black people calling themsleves Black before contact with Indo-European speakers.
Posts: 2720 | Registered: May 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Supercar: Of course, there were people who referenced themselves as "blacks"...in their own terms. Hence, the point is not to merely debate whether there exists extremely dark shade [as in the spectrum of 'visible' light], termed as "black" in English, but that people of diverse cultural backgrounds have their own terms in place to reference such.
Thought Writes:
What proportion of melanocytes defines Black people in Ancient Egypt versus the modern United States? You have qualified your position. Please quantify your position with parameters.
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quote:Originally posted by Thought2: Thought Writes: Black as used in an English speaking context, probably not.
This is incorrect, because there is no distinct english conception of black, or yellow, or red or any other color.
Thus *ALL TRANSLATIONS* of Km.t translate the word to the noun, Black, this is true of Hebrew of German, of French translations.
You may wipe England and America from the face of the earth, and the meaning of Km.t, would be just the same.
I think Americans need to believe they originate or are unique in areas where they merely repeat the past, perhaps because their racial experiences are so hurtful.
That's understandable, but it does not allow them to rewrite history or claim they originate things that they, in fact, do not.
Americanist or Anglophile is free to show *precisely* how they originate the concept of black. The burdan is squarely on them to do so.
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quote:Originally posted by Lion!: This argument is specious and pathetic. This "scholar" is the first I have seen to disprove the existence of colours!
quote:Originally posted by Lion!: What is recognition of melanine differences but an acknowledgment of colour differences?
Thought Writes:
If there is a range of melanin how can one quantify what Black is in one language and then transfer and imbed this same meaning in a a different culture and language seperated by over 5,000 years in time. Think deeply.....
Posts: 2720 | Registered: May 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Lion!: The Rasolian law! LoL. No my friend, DNA as applied to ethno-history is still a developing science, highly tentative and fledging.
This new science exists against a background of assumptions and theoretical framework. It has not yet attained the level of an absolute truth...
On the contrary, this science [genetics] as been developed enough where lineages have been identified.
Do not make an ad-hominem attack on an entire science just because you fail to understand even the simplest aspects of it, hence your whole "black japanese" debaucle! LOLPosts: 26267 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by rasol: This is incorrect, because there is no distinct english conception of black, or yellow, or red or any other color.
Thought Writes:
Distinct from what?
quote:Originally posted by rasol: Thus *ALL TRANSLATIONS* of Km.t translate the word to the noun, Black, this is true of Hebrew of German, of French translations.
Thought Writes:
Such may be the case, however this does not make it valid. Again, where is the evidence that there is a QUANTIFIABLE proportion of melanin in modern people that make them Black. There is none, because Black is not used in this context. This is illogical, especially given the fact that we know that indigenous Africans have ALLWAYS had VARIABLE melanin levels.
quote:Originally posted by rasol: You may wipe England and America from the face of the earth, and the meaning of Km.t, would be just the same.
Thought Writes:
What **PERCISELY** is that meaning?
quote:Originally posted by rasol:
I think Americans need to believe they originate or are unique in areas where they merely repeat the past, perhaps because their racial experiences are so hurtful. .
Thought Writes:
Such may or may not be the case, but this has no bearing on my position.
quote:Originally posted by rasol: Americanist or Anglophile is free to show *precisely* how they originate the concept of black. .
Thought Writes:
Please define what you mean when you use this word? Thanks.
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What proportion of melanocytes defines Black people in Ancient Egypt versus the modern United States?
Blacks - a person belonging to any of various population groups having dark pigmentation of the skin. AHD, 200
Km.t - Noires Blacks, Champollion.
Your question about melanocytes is a form of argument by reduction to absurdity.
You might as well claim that the concept of 'big' is unique to english, and then ask for percentile of 'growth hormone' as a parameter.
Many on this cite don't understand logical discourse, so you have to baby-talk them thru it, but you are *very intelligent* and know better, so unless you think you can play with us, because we aren't as smart as you, then...don't make specious arguments.
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quote:Originally posted by Lion!: What is recognition of melanine differences but an acknowledgment of colour differences?
Thought Writes:
If there is a range of melanin how can one quantify what Black is in one language and then transfer and imbed this same meaning in a a different culture and language seperated by over 5,000 years in time. Think deeply..... [/QB]
Thought I am really getting worried about you! Why not drop the verbal argument about black and get to the gist of the issue.
Kushites and Egyptians and Sudroid Indians are all part of the great Kushitic family.
Welcome home bro!
Posts: 236 | From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Supercar: Of course, there were people who referenced themselves as "blacks"...in their own terms. Hence, the point is not to merely debate whether there exists extremely dark shade [as in the spectrum of 'visible' light], termed as "black" in English, but that people of diverse cultural backgrounds have their own terms in place to reference such.
Thought Writes:
What proportion of melanocytes defines Black people in Ancient Egypt versus the modern United States? You have qualified your position. Please quantify your position with parameters.
That is a question, I would imagine someone would reserve to the folks who used the term "Kem". The only problem is that, they are dead. What we do know from the application of "Kem" in ancient Egypt, is that the term was associated with the color "black", and that, that color in turn, had a deeper context, i.e., all things sacred. We've been through all this before.
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quote:Originally posted by Lion!: Thought I am really getting worried about you! Why not drop the verbal argument about black and get to the gist of the issue.
Kushites and Egyptians and Sudroid Indians are all part of the great Kushitic family.
Welcome home bro!
LOL As I said, the madness just keeps coming...
be it in one form or another (Eurocentrism or Afrocentrism)
Posts: 26267 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Blacks - a person belonging to any of various population groups having dark pigmentation of the skin. AHD, 200
Km.t - Noires Blacks, Champollion.
Your question about melanocytes is a form of argument by reduction to absurdity.
Thought Writes:
Not at all. Melanin level is a quantifiable entity. If one claims that the concept of Black is based on melanin level and that Black means the same thing in modern English and Ancient Egyptian one must be able to percisely measure melanin levels in both cultures and then cross refernce these results between each culture for this hypothesis to be valid. Otherwise we are dealing with the subjective. If we are dealing with something subjective how do we link these subjective meanings through time and space. We do not!
quote:Originally posted by rasol: [QUOTE]You might as well claim that the concept of 'big' is unique to english, and then ask for percentile of 'growth hormone' as a parameter.
Thought Writes:
My point exactly! BIG is subjective, just as Black is subjective if one means DARK skinnned. The Wolof may be Black to the San, yet to us BOTH the San and the Wolof are Black. Do you disagree?
Posts: 2720 | Registered: May 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Lion!: Thought I am really getting worried about you! Why not drop the verbal argument about black and get to the gist of the issue.
Kushites and Egyptians and Sudroid Indians are all part of the great Kushitic family.
Welcome home bro!
LOL As I said, the madness just keeps coming...
be it in one form or another (Eurocentrism or Afrocentrism)
I thought you have been advised by Ausar not to resort to perjorative terms like drug addicts, mad, crazy?
Considering that you have been trolling on this board for so long now, I would not want to be the cause over which you are banned.
Intelligent arguments, not impassioned character assasination. This board really gets some distinguished visitors whom we would not want trolls to discourage.
You are warned!
The Lion!
Posts: 236 | From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Supercar: The only problem is that, they are dead. What we do know from the application of "Kem" in ancient Egypt, is that the term was associated with the color "black", and that, that color in turn, had a deeper context, i.e., all things sacred.
Thought Writes:
And how does this **precise** Black color relate to the **RANGE** of Black people in Ancient Egypt? Does it mean that all of the people who were not that **precise** color were not really considered Egyptian because they were not dark enough?
Posts: 2720 | Registered: May 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Lion!: I thought you have been advised by Ausar not to resort to perjorative terms like drug addicts, mad, crazy?
Sorry, did I specifically mention you?
quote:Considering that you have been trolling on this board for so long now, I would not want to be the cause over which you are banned.
LOL ME trolling?! That's a joke! I've been doing nothing but learning or offering FACTS inf this board since before you showed up! While YOU contribute nothing but misinformation and fantasy.
quote:Intelligent arguments, not impassioned character assasination. This board really gets some distinguished visitors whom we would not want trolls to discourage.
Hypocrasy aside, YOU are the one who resorts to ad-hominem remarks when you lack answers to assumptions that YOU make.
If you want me to attack your arguments than so be it (not hard to do since your really have no argument)
quote:You are warned!
Likewise.
Posts: 26267 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Rasol, below you seem to imply that ANY population with dark pigmentation of the skin is Black. Please verify that I understand your position. I don't want to misquote or misinterpret your position. I want to be very carefull, clear and consise as I move to my conclusion on this issue.
quote:Originally posted by rasol:
quote:
Blacks - a person belonging to any of various population groups having dark pigmentation of the skin. AHD, 200
Km.t - Noires Blacks, Champollion.
quote:Originally posted by rasol: [QUOTE]
Irrelevant since we are not discussing the meaning of the word melanin, or it's chemical properties.
Thought Writes:
Do we agree that dark pigmentation and melanin are the same thing?
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Do you believe that the concept of Dark Skin and Black Skin mean the same thing?
I appreciate the straightforward question.
Black and Dark are similar concepts, yes, but they are not identical concepts.
The conceptual relationship between dark and back exist in many languages:
specifically:
black is the strongest term denoted for the darkest colors in english.
km.t is the strongest term denoted for the darkest colors in mdw ntr.
that's why linguists correctly translate km.t to black.
My straightforward question to you is, do you acknowledge this translation as correct? It's really a yes or no question?
If you will answer it, I believe we can move on to discuss the chemical melanin.
quote: If so, do you believe that the people of Indonesia are generally a Black people?
My opinion is that some are and some aren't, there are over 200 million people and dozens of highly distinct ethnic groups in Indonesia Thought.
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Black and Dark are similar concepts, yes, but they are not identical concepts.
Thought Writes:
If you do NOT believe that Black and Dark represent the **SAME** (not similar or akin) concept, why did you post a definition of Blacks meaning people with dark skin pigmentation?
quote:Originally posted by rasol: [QUOTE]
Blacks - a person belonging to any of various population groups having dark pigmentation of the skin. AHD, 2000.
quote:Originally posted by rasol: [QUOTE]km.t is the strongest term denoted for the darkest colors in mdw ntr..
Thought Writes:
Yet DARK and BLACK do NOT mean the same thing, correct?
quote:Originally posted by rasol: [QUOTE]that's why linguists correctly translate km.t to black..
Thought Writes:
Wouldn't the term DARKEST be the most precise term to use?
quote:Originally posted by rasol: [QUOTE]My straightforward question to you is, do you acknowledge this translation as correct? It's really a yes or no question?..
Thought Writes:
If you don't care for me to elaborate I will simply allow you to box me in.... the short answer is no.
quote:Originally posted by rasol: [QUOTE]My opinion is that some are and some aren't, there are over 200 million people and dozens of highly distinct ethnic groups in Indonesia Thought.
Thought Writes:
What distinguishes a Black Indonesian from a non-Black Indonesian Rasol?
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Do we agree that dark pigmentation and melanin are the same thing?
We agree that melanin is a dark chemical produced by biological organisms and contributing to everything from pink bird feathers to blonde hair.
Some kinds of blonde hair have melanin, and some does not, for example, but the hair is still blonde - whether it has melanin or not. So the distinction is subtle, but not trite.
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quote:Originally posted by rasol: Again, the distinction may be subtle, but they are important.
Thought Writes:
I concur, distnctions are very important which is why I believe we should not import temporally and spacially and even conceptually similar, yet different terms and concepts into other cultures. We need to localize terms for greatest validity. A more appropriate tranlation for the word Kemet would be the land of the dark people, not Black people. We (including yourself) use a concept for Black People that to refers to a RANGE of melanin levels, hair textures and cranio-facial forms. A person can be Black and not be dark in a subjective sense. For example Camile Cosby is a Black woman, yet to many she would not be a dark woman. Then again, VJ Singh is a dark person, but most (except Clyde Winters, Lion and trolls) would not claim that he was a Black person.
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quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: You will never be able to determine the time period for the spread of Indian people from Africa to India using DNA.
Incorrect. Scientists can already accurately date DNA haplogroup mutation rates.
quote:This results, from the fact that there was and is no one group of "Blacks" in India. There are many different groups of "Blacks" in Indian in addition to other people who some would not call Blacks. For example, Black Indians speak three different language families: Austro-Asiatic, Dravidian and Indo-Aryan.
Correct, but non have any recent genetic links with Africans let alone the Nile Valley.
quote:Yet we can use textual, archaeological and skeletal evidence to support a migration of people from Africa to India. In the sub-continent of India, there were several main groups. The earliest inhabitants of India were the Negritos, and this was followed by the Proto-Australoid, the Mongoloid and the so-called mediterranean type which represent the ancient Egyptians and Kushites.
Invalid 'racial' classifications. Case in point would be Egyptians and Kushites being classified as 'mediterranean caucasoids'!
quote:The Proto-Australoid race, Mongoloid race and Africoid/ Mediterranean skeletal remains were all found at Harappan sites. The speech of this group of Austroloids is believed to be Austric, a specimen of this language survives in the Munda speech.(Thapar 1972,p.26) The Africoid/Mediterranean group is associated with Dravidian culture.[quote]Outdated theories. India was settled in 2 main waves. The first was through the southern route that went across to Australia and the second was by a northern route from Central Asia and which was also the source lineage of peoples in East Asia, Europe, and Native Americans. There were probably other more recent migrations from Central Asia but non specifically identifiable as Indo-European and certainly non from the Nile Valley.
[quote]The Negritos founded the earliest culture in the Indus Valley at Mehrgarh in 6000 B.C. They had domesticated goats and sheep and grew cereals.
Again, speculative. We don't know for sure which peoples began Neolithic culture. That it spread from the Near-East is possible and/or likely
quote:But India was never extensively urbanized before 2400 B.C. The antecedents of the Harappan culture are village sites of the Baluchistan hills, the Nal culture and the Makran coast to the West of the Indus delta. The ancient inhabitants of the Indus Valley were the Nubian Dravidian speakers. Today Brahui, Malto and Kurukh are Dravidian languages spoken in the Indus area.
The Dravidians were not Nubians!
quote:B.B. Lal (1963) and Indian Egyptologist has shown conclusively that the Dravidians originated in the Saharan area 5000 years ago. He claims they came from Kush, in the Fertile African Crescent and were related to the C-Group people who founded the Kerma dynasty in the 3rd millennium B.C. (Lal 1963) The Dravidians used a common black-and-red pottery, which spread from Nubia, through modern Ethiopia, Arabia, Iran into India as a result of the Proto-Saharan dispersal. The Nubian Dravidians were one of the cattle herding groups that made up the C-Group culture of Nubia Kush. Thundy has observed that: "If Kashi the holy place (alias Varanasi) is a Dravidian word, the name was bestowed on the place by the Dravidians after their homeland of Nubia, Upper Egypt,which is called Kush and Kashi in the Semitic languages". He added that: "...I view the common myth[of Isis and Osiris in Egypt and Kannaki and Kovalan in India] only as supporting the widely held theory that the Dravidians of India came from the Mediterranean region, particularly from Nubia, for ethnically and linguistically, the peoples of the two regions are strikingly similar". There is physical evidence which suggest an African origin for the Dravidians. The Dravidians live in South India. The Dravidian ethnic group includes the Tamil, Kurukh,Malayalam, Kananda (Kanarese), Tulu, Telugu and etc. The ancient Indo-Aryan writings make it clear that the Indians were dark-skinned (varna) and had flat noses. (Durant 1935, p.396) This fact is supported by the Ali Tiraavitar (Old Dravidians) who are black as their African brothers with a difference in hair texture. In ancient Tamil poems they are described as mamai (black). In addition, the ancient Dravidians practiced a matriarchal system in Kerala and South Kanara. In addition among the ali tiravitar, the system of inheritance passes from the uncle to his nephews, instead of to his sons (maru makkal Tayam) as in Africa. And in both South India and the Western Sudan of Africa, the dead were buried in terra cotta jars. Aravaanan (1980) has written extensively on the African and Dravidian relations. He has illustrated that the Africans and Dravidian share many physical similarities including the dolichocephalic indexes (Aravaanan 1980,pp.62-263), platyrrhine nasal index (Aravaanan 1980,pp.25-27), stature (31-32) and blood type (Aravaanan 1980,34-35). Aravaanan (1980,p.40) also presented much evidence for analogous African and Dravidian cultural features including the chipping of incisor teeth and the use of the lost wax process to make bronze works of arts (Aravaanan 1980,p.41). The Original homeland of the Dravidian speaking people was the Saharan zone of Middle Africa. We call the ancestors of the Dravidians the Proto/Saharans. The homeland of the Proto/Saharans was the Libyan and Sudanese deserts. It was in this region between 90006000 BC, that the elements of Proto/Dravidian culture were created.(Winters 1985) The Proto-Saharans claimed descent from the Maa or Fish Confederation. The Maa Confederation includes the Egyptians, Elamites, Dravidians, Manding, and Sumerians. In honor of this great ancestor Maa, they worshipped a god called :Amun, Amon or Amma. In addition to pay homage to Ma, the descendants of the Proto-Saharans use the term Ma, to denote greatness or highness, e.g., Manding:Maga, and Dravidian:Ma. Other Proto-Saharan tribes claimed direct descent from the great Maa, founder of the Fish Confederation. For example, the Manding call themselves Ma-nde (the children of Maa) and the Sumerian called themselves Mah-Gar-ri ( exalted God's children). Ethically the Proto-Dravidians were round-headed Mediterraneans of the ancient variety. Around 7000 BC, Mediterraneans of a fairly tall stature not devoid of negroid characteristics appear in the Sahara at Capsa (now called Cafsa). (Desanges 1981:424-25) These Mediterraneans are called Capsians. This group flourished in an area extending from the western most borders of north Africa, into the southern Sahara. Skeletons of the Mediterranean type have been found throughout Middle Africa, Southeast Asia, Mesopotamia, the IndoPakistan region and even Central Asia. It is no secret that the founders of ancient Egypt, Elam, Sumer and the Indus Valley were all of the Mediterranean type. In the ancient inscriptions many ProtoSaharans were called KUSHITES. These Kushites were also called Saka, Kushana, Kutians, Kus and Qus. (Lacouperie 1886:2829; Winters 1982) In the primary center of ProtoDravidian settlement in Middle Africa, they used a common black-and-red ware (BRW) and herded cattle, sheep and goats. They also possessed wheat and millet. (Winters 1985a) This supports Kohl's (1988:596) hypothesis that millet was introduced into Inner Asia from Africa. The Dravidians migrated out of the Sahara, due to population pressure and the search for sources of new metal reserves. Dravidian languages are predominately spoken southern India and Sri Lanka. There are around 125 million Dravidian speakers. These languages are genetically related to African languages. COMMON INDO-AFRICAN TERMS ENGLISH DRAVIDIAN SENEGALESE MANDING MOTHER AMMA AMA,MEEN MA FATHER APPAN,ABBA AMPA,BAABA BA PREGNANCY BASARU BIIR BARA SKIN URI NGURU,GURI GURU BLOOD NETTARU DERET DYERI KING MANNAN MAANSA,OMAAD MANSA GRAND BIIRA BUUR BA SALIVA TUPPAL TUUDDE TU CULTIVATE BEY ,MBEY BE BOAT KULAM GAAL KULU FEATHER SOOGE SIIGE SI, SIGI MOUNTAIN KUNRU TUUD KURU ROCK KALLU XEER KULU STREAM KOLLI KAL KOLI
The Dravidians are remnants of the ancient Black population who occupied most of ancient Asia and Europe. Menges (1966), using linguistic data "assumed an earlier habitat of the Dravidians far to the northwest on the plateau of Iran...an area extending still a little bit more to the north into what has become Turkistan". This view is now confirmed by archaeological evidence of an Indus culture in Inner Asia. (Brentjes 1983; Winters 1990) The Dravidians settled in Asia between 30002800 BC. (Winters 1985) From here the Dravidians spread into Central Asia, China, South and Southwest Asia. It was probably from Iran that bronze working radiated into Central and Southeast Asia. (Winters 1985b) The epicenter for the Dravidian dispersals in Asia was Iran. The motivation behind Dravidian dispersals was agropastoralism in the region and the search for new sources of metals for trade with Mesopotamia, the Indus valley and beyond. (Winters 1985a,1985b) This would explain the close relationship between Dravidian and Elamite on the one hand, and Dravidian, Manding , and Elamite on the other. (Winters 1985c,1989b) The Elamites lived in the Fars and the Bakhtiar valleys. This mountain area was named Elimaid in ancient times. The Elamites called themselves:Khatan. The capital city of the Elamites Susa ,was called: Khuz by the IndoEuropean speakers, and Kussi by the Elamites. The Chinese called the Elamites Kashti. The Armenians called the eastern Parthia: Kushana. The major Kushite group from Mesopotamia to northern India were the Kassites. The Kassites, who occupied the central Zagros were called Kashshu. This name agrees with Kaska, the name of the Hattians. P.N. Chopra,in The History of South India, noted that the Kassite language bears unmistakable affinity to the Dravidian group of languages. Similar pottery was used in West Asia. The pottery from Susa in Iran and Eridu in Mesopotamia of the fifth millennium BC are identical. Between 3700 and 3100 BC, Elam was under the influence of Uruk, as indicated by the shared art found at these sites during this period. By the end of the 4th millennium BC , we see the beginnings of distinctive Elamite culture in the western Fars, at the Kur Valley. Here at TeliMalyan we see the first ProtoElamite tablets written in the ProtoSaharan script. Other ProtoElamite writings soon appear at Susa. The authors of the ProtoElamite tablets were of ProtoSaharan origin. Malyan and Susa soon became the kingdoms of Anshan and Susa. These ProtoElamites soon spread to Tepe Sialk and Tepe Yahya which was reoccupied after being abandoned earlier due to ecological decay. The Proto-Saharans in Elam shared the same culture as their cousins in Egypt, Sumer, Elam and the Indus Valley. Vessels from the IVBI workshop at Tepe Yahya (c.21001700 BC), have a uniform shape and design. Vessels sharing this style are distributed from Soviet Uzbekistan, to the Indus Valley. In addition, as mentioned earlier we find common arrowheads at sites in the Indus Valley ,Iran, Egypt, Minoan Crete and early Heladic Greece. The evidence presented above makes it clear that archaeological, linguistic and skeletal evidence indicate that most Dravidian speaking Indians probably came from Middle Africa. There were some Dravidian speaking Indians who came to India from East Africa via Kumarinadu, but this is another story.
The rest is insubstanstial and circumstial at best. That there are similarities between Harappan culture and Nile Valley culuture is apparent but to attribute this to a recent common origin is faulty scholarship. The linguistic evidence presented was so weak it was ridiculous. One can find similar typological words between Finish and Harapan or Indonesian and Nubian. A few words similar in phonology will not do alone. The 2 predominant language phyla of the Nile Valley are Nilo-Saharan and Afrasian, but Dravidian possess no genetic relation to either or to any language spoken in Africa for that matter.
The same could be said with all the cultural aspects listed.
[b]The initial settlement of South Asia, between 40,000 and 70,000 years ago[b], was most likely over the southern route from Africa because haplogroup M, which is the most frequent mtDNA component in India,...
As Rasol says:
"M is indeed common in South India, the Andaman Islands, Australia the Pacific Islands, and Africa - but does *not* indicate a recent common ancestry among all of these peoples.
M1 has been found in Africa, but it does not exist in India."
Whatever Y-chromosome haplotypes carried by males is also rare in India. The peoples of India are black yes, and may have many similarities with African cultures but they are Asian NOT African or "Kushitic" as one on this board is desperate to believe, and are genetically closer to Chinese than they are to Africans.
Ironically you have 'white' people like those in Greece who carry recent African derived lineages making them closer Egyptians and Nubians than actual blacks in India. So what are we to make of them?!
Posts: 26267 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:What distinguishes a Black Indonesian from a non-Black Indonesian Rasol?
Only the triviality that is skin color.
Thought Writes:
Do you still consider the San people of Africa to be Black? Or do you view them as non-Black Africans?
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I concur, which is why I believe a more appropriate tranlation would be for Kemet would be the land of the dark people, not Black people.
That would be incorrect, as the word itself simply means Black, according to linguists.
Even anti-Black Eurocentric linguists do not deny the km.t means Black, because denying it results in linguistic inanities that even their best dissembling cannot sustain.
In your case you simply ignore linguists and create your own definition, based on non-linguistic arguments.
I regard your arguments as interesting in and of their own right, but actually of no relevance to the meaning of KM.t -> black, noun, plural, according to linguistics, and without regard to American socio-political handwringing.
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