posted
Didn't want to derail from the topic, where the following exchanges were made; maybe this would be the opportunity to straighten out things pertaining to this matter:
Hotep2U wrote:
Look at the Lemba jews they were once living in Yemen and look where they are located today Southern Afrika why?
I replied:
BTW, the "Lemba Jews" are actually "indigenous" Africans among whom, "Eurasian" markers have been identified, indicating gene flow from southwest Asia.
Hotep2U followed up with:
But the remarkable thing about the Lemba tradition is that it may be exactly right. A team of geneticists has found that many Lemba men carry in their male chromosome a set of DNA sequences that is distinctive of the cohanim, the Jewish priests believed to be the descendants of Aaron. The priestly genetic signature is particularly common among Lemba men who belong to the senior of their 12 groups, known as the Buba clan. http://www.uoregon.edu/~jbloom/race/general/lemba.htm
Now, my question to Hotep2u is this:
Do you consider the Lemba an indigenous African group or NOT?
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posted
Jews do get around. If there are Chineese Jews I don't see why there wouldn't be South African ones as well. And just like Jews in Europe, the African Jews would essentially be more African than Asiatic. Keep in mind that if Lemba's come from Yemen then they would have already been Africanized before arriving in South Africa. Problem with the Lemba is that they are Bantu-speakers whereas Ethiopian Jews are Semitic speaking. Makes the Lemba claim a bit difficult to believe and this nonesense about them building Great Zimbabwe. I just not buying that at all. There's nothing remotely Jewish or Sebean about Zimbabwe.
Its an absurd claim when clearly the artifacts at Zimbabwe speak of an African origin with some Portugese, Chinese and Indian trade activity. Where are the relics showing a Jewish connection!
Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
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posted
And who said the Lemba built Ancient Zimbabwe? LOL. Before it was Persians or Arabs, now Jews.... LOL. Just another example of Africa and the Rodney Dangerfield syndrome. Just can't believe it! LOL
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quote:Originally posted by lamin: And who said the Lemba built Ancient Zimbabwe? LOL. Before it was Persians or Arabs, now Jews.... LOL. Just another example of Africa and the Rodney Dangerfield syndrome. Just can't believe it! LOL
The Lemba's themselves claim to have built it.
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quote:Originally posted by osirion: Jews do get around. If there are Chineese Jews I don't see why there wouldn't be South African ones as well. And just like Jews in Europe, the African Jews would essentially be more African than Asiatic. Keep in mind that if Lemba's come from Yemen then they would have already been Africanized before arriving in South Africa. Problem with the Lemba is that they are Bantu-speakers whereas Ethiopian Jews are Semitic speaking. Makes the Lemba claim a bit difficult to believe and this nonesense about them building Great Zimbabwe. I just not buying that at all. There's nothing remotely Jewish or Sebean about Zimbabwe.
Its an absurd claim when clearly the artifacts at Zimbabwe speak of an African origin with some Portugese, Chinese and Indian trade activity. Where are the relics showing a Jewish connection!
Keeping the topic as objective as possible, I don't deny southwest Asian ancestry among Lemba clans. In fact, I've already made that clear in my response to Hotep2u's claim. The topic might seem so casual at first sight, but there is more to it than meets the eye. Hotep2u claims that the "Lemba jews" were once living in Yemen; is this really an accurate thing to say? I also asked him/her a follow up to gauge what African context Hotep2u puts the Lemba; although different cases, the same thing goes on and on about coastal northwestern Berbers, even after several discussions on bio-history of the region.
I am still looking forward to hearing Hotep2u's answer to that straightforward question I asked at the beginning...don't want to jump to any conclusions on his/her viewpoints...just yet. Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
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posted
It has now been two days, still pending justification of the following...
Hotep2U wrote:
Look at the Lemba jews they were once living in Yemen and look where they are located today Southern Afrika why?
I think it is now safe to say that the above was an indefensible remark; otherwise, the questions surrounding it, would have been addressed by now.
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Supercar and other posters I didn't know a question was posted to me here. Sometimes when scanning Egyptsearch posts topics I rarely look at OT posts. I will now attempt to show where my point view, let me start by saying this Judaism accordin to the bible has roots in Kemet so the question also is, Can we assume that Judaism is indeginous to Afrika also?
Supercar wrote:
quote: Do you consider the Lemba an indigenous African group or NOT?
Yes I do consider the Lemba Jews an indigenous Afrikan group because they show features that are synonymous with Native Afrikans and not members from other locations. The Lemba Jews claimed to have been in Syria at one point so I would like to point out that if this is true which I assume it to be then why did they leave Afrika to go to Syria? Also for the record Judaism is a religion so when we define ethnic groups with a religion then we will eventually run into these types of anomalies.
I also totally agree with you that this topic is A LOT deeper than it looks.
Supercar and other posters I didn't know a question was posted to me here. Sometimes when scanning Egyptsearch posts topics I rarely look at OT posts. I will now attempt to show where my point view, let me start by saying this Judaism accordin to the bible has roots in Kemet so the question also is, Can we assume that Judaism is indeginous to Afrika also?
That is beyond the scope of the topic at hand, and for that reason, I'd prefer to reserve it for some other discussion.
quote:Hotep2u: Yes I do consider the Lemba Jews an indigenous Afrikan group because they show features that are synonymous with Native Afrikans and not members from other locations.
Ok. Just to see if we are on the same page here: Do you consider White "South Africans", for example, "indigenous" Africans?
quote:Hotep2u: The Lemba Jews claimed to have been in Syria at one point so I would like to point out that if this is true which I assume it to be then why did they leave Afrika to go to Syria?
So you believe that the Lemba Jews were first in Africa, and then left for Syria, only to return back to Africa. Is this correct?
quote:Hotep2u: Also for the record Judaism is a religion so when we define ethnic groups with a religion then we will eventually run into these types of anomalies.
Where there are no anomalies, is establishment of truth through multidisciplinary approach. What genetics has revealed to us is that, where there appears to be consistency between the results of DNA samplings and Lemba oral traditions, is the idea of some paternal ancestry from southwest Asia. What it doesn't provide us with, is a firm explanation of how those lineages found their way into Lemba clans [I hope you know what I mean by that, if not please ask], or revelation that the Lemba themselves were once in Syria or Yemen. In fact, not all Lemba clans show the same frequencies of the Cohen modal haplotype; the Buba clan, in particular, appear to have the highest frequency of this haplotype, which is supposedly the lineage of some ancient Jewish Priestly cast. Not to be ignored, is the fact that Lemba paternal ancestry has also been traced to Bantu-speaking groups, while mtDNA analysis showed no evidence of a Eurasian component. Then, there is the question of linguistics; all the Lemba clans, speak Bantu languages. On the other hand, much of the languages spoken Southwest Asian regions, belong to the Afrasan language family group. Last but not least, archeological evidence also comes in handy, when dealing with matters such as this.
quote:Hotep2u: I also totally agree with you that this topic is A LOT deeper than it looks.
Hotep
On that I agree, although I am not sure we are using 'deeper' in the same context. In any case, hopefully we will soon be able to further explore some of the deeper aspects of the topic, as the discussion proceeds.
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quote:Originally posted by osirion: Jews do get around. If there are Chineese Jews I don't see why there wouldn't be South African ones as well...
Be careful with this claim. Not everyone who practices the religion of Judaism are necessarily the descendants of the original ethnic Judaic tribes, as shown by the evidence of the Falasha and more recently that African American Jewish cult I've heard about!
Posts: 26260 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote: Ok. Just to see if we are on the same page here: Do you consider White "South Africans", for example, "indigenous" Africans?
Definition of Indigenous: 1. Originating and living or occurring naturally in an area or environment.
Early History of South Afrika
The San (Bushmen) are among the oldest indigenous peoples of South Africa. About 2,000 years ago, the pastoral Khoikhoi (called Hottentots by Europeans) settled mainly in the southern coastal region. By at least the 8th cent., Bantu speakers moving southward from E central Africa had settled the N region of present-day South Africa. These Bantu-speaking groups developed their own complex community organizations. In 1488, Bartolomeu Dias, a Portuguese navigator, became the first European to round the Cape of Good Hope (so named by King John II of Portugal). The diaries of shipwrecked Portuguese sailors attest to a large Bantu-speaking population in present-day KwaZulu-Natal by 1552.
Colonialism and African-European Relations Although European vessels frequently passed by South Africa on their way to E Africa and India, and sometimes stopped for provisions or rest, no permanent European settlement was made until 1652, when Jan van Riebeeck and about 90 other persons set up a provisioning station for the Dutch East India Company at Table Bay on the Cape of Good Hope. Soon van Riebeeck began to trade with nearby Khoikhoi, gave Europeans land for farms, and brought in Africans (from W and E Africa) and Malays as slaves. By 1662, about 250 Europeans were living near the Cape and gradually they moved inland, founding Stellenbosch in 1679. In 1689 about 200 Huguenot refugees from Europe arrived; they established a wine industry and intermarried with the earlier Dutch settlers. By 1707 there were about 1,780 freeholders of European descent in South Africa, and they owned about 1,100 slaves.
By the early 18th cent., most San had migrated into inaccessible parts of the country to avoid European domination; the more numerous Khoikhoi either remained near the Cape, where they became virtual slaves of the Europeans, or dispersed into the interior. A great smallpox outbreak in 1713 killed many Europeans and most of the Khoikhoi living near the Cape. During the 18th cent. intermarriage between Khoikhoi slaves and Europeans began to create what became later known as the Coloured population. At the same time white farmers (known as Boers or Afrikaners) began to trek (journey) increasingly farther from the Cape in search of pasture and cropland.
By 1750 some farmers had migrated to the region between the Gamtoos and Great Fish rivers, where they encountered the Xhosa. At first the whites and blacks engaged in friendly trade, but in 1779 the first of a long series of Xhosa Wars (1789, 1799, 1812, 1819, 1834, 1846, 1850, 1877) broke out between them, primarily over land and cattle ownership. The whites sought to establish the Great Fish as the southern frontier of the Xhosa.
I think the facts are self evident towards Ducth immigrants NOT being indigenous to Southern Afrika.
Supercar wrote:
quote: So you believe that the Lemba Jews were first in Africa, and then left for Syria, only to return back to Africa. Is this correct?
Based of the Lemba's oral historical claim that they returned back to Afrika after being attacked while in Syria, I further speculate that based upon the physical features of the Lemba they were in Afika before they were in Syria. Now after experiencing conflict in Syria they decided to go south back to Afrika, that's my assumption towards the Lemba.
Supercar wrote:
quote: What it doesn't provide us with, is a firm explanation of how those lineages found their way into Lemba clans
I would like to ask Supercar if it is possible that the Lemba originally possessed these traits in the beginning and other groups are carrying these lineages now that they obtained these genes from mixing with the Lemba. I would like to point out that it is possible that the original Priests or Levites might have been the Lemba, or am I not allowed to assume that Lemba originated anything within the Judaic ethnic group. I don't know what you mean so if you want to explain further please do.
I think the facts are self evident towards Ducth immigrants NOT being indigenous to Southern Afrika.
Such a long answer for such a simple question wasn't necessary; the above would have been adequate enough.
quote:Hotep2u: Based of the Lemba's oral historical claim that they returned back to Afrika after being attacked while in Syria, I further speculate that based upon the physical features of the Lemba they were in Afika before they were in Syria. Now after experiencing conflict in Syria they decided to go south back to Afrika, that's my assumption towards the Lemba.
Do you have any solid corroboration to go with that "assumption"? For instance, do you have any literal or archeological evidence of conflict between the Lemba and some extant group in Syria? I mean, someone in Syria had to have been witness to such a conflict, wouldn't you say?
quote:Hotep2u: I would like to ask Supercar if it is possible that the Lemba originally possessed these traits in the beginning and other groups are carrying these lineages now that they obtained these genes from mixing with the Lemba.
Well, let's see, from Thomas et al.:
"Of particular interest is the Buba clan, since membership of this clan and possession of the CMH are significantly associated (P < .0001). Seven of the 11 clan-designated Lemba CMH Y chromosomes came from members of this clan, whereas 7 (Northern Province, 4/4; and Sekhukuneland, 3/9) of the 13 Buba have the CMH."
F. C. Raulinga Hamisi, a Lemba elder, in a speech at the burial of Maanda William Mawela Ratshilingana Mhani, in July 1996 (before the current research was undertaken), said that "the Senas left Judea under the leadership of Buba and settled in Yemen where they built their city of Sena, hence Senas," reflecting the belief of at least one elder that Buba led the Lemba out of Judea. On the other hand, the Encyclopedia Judaica (1972) makes no mention of a Buba in Jewish history. In a book published privately in 1992, another Lemba elder wrote that "the Bhuba lineage came down from Judea as the leading lineage of the Basena when they left Judea in their early migration to the Yemen where they settled and built the city of Sena. They ruled over all the lineages in good manner"
"The results...suggest a genetic history of the Lemba that is not incompatible with their oral tradition. Clearly, there has been a Semitic genetic contribution, including, quite probably, one from Arabs, given the Lembas' presence on the eastern coast of Africa, where Arabs have settled for centuries (Mathew 1963). Both Ashkenazic and Sephardic Israelites are geographically far removed from the Lemba, and, were it not for the Y-chromosome sharing between the Yemeni and Jewish populations, the occurrence of Jewish haplotypes in the Lemba population would be highly suggestive of gene flow between the two groups. However, given the extent of Y-chromosome sharing between the Yemeni and Jewish groups, the presence of such haplotypes because of gene flow from Arab sources cannot be discounted. Support for a Jewish contribution to the Lemba gene pool is, nevertheless, found in the presence, at high frequency in the Lemba, of the CMH (.088 of the entire population and .135 of UEP group 1); the CMH is also observed at moderate frequency in Ashkenazic Israelites (.150 and .231) and Sephardic Israelites (.100 and .161), but it was observed in only a single Yemeni (.020 and .028). Furthermore, in an unpublished study of Palestinian Arabs (A. Nebel, D. Filon, M. Faerman, A. Oppenheim, personal communication), the CMH was present at only very low frequency (<.025).
The CMH has been suggested as a signature haplotype for the ancient Hebrew population, and it may be performing that function in this study (Thomas et al. 1998). Further support for Lemba oral history comes from the Buba/CMH association. However, it is possible that the Lemba CMH Y chromosomes are a consequence of a relatively recent event that, in Lemba oral tradition, has acquired a patina of antiquity...
The female contribution to the Lemba gene pool may be very different from the paternal, although still consistent with Lemba oral tradition. Soodyall (1993), analyzing mtDNA, found no evidence of Semitic admixture. Significantly, more than one-quarter of the Lemba sampled by Soodyall et al. (1996) had the African intergenic COII/tRNALys 9-bp deletion. Our study provides no evidence of a specific contribution from the ancestors of the present-day residents of Sena.
Having now, seen excerpts from Thomas et al., the questions that one perhaps has to ask are;
If the Lemba were the original carriers of the Cohen Modal haplotype, then its presence in the "Near East" would have to have occurred, through an out of African migration. What route, would you propose that this out of Africa migration took place?
As we can see from the study, no Eurasian component found in the Lemba mtDNA genetic structure. Did the Lemba, then go without females into the "Near East"? Little sub-Saharan mtDNA is found in Jewish populations of the Near East.
We have discovered that of the Lemba groups, the Buba clan, particularly have the highest frequencies of CMH. Why isn't this more or less linearly distributed among the Lemba clans, if they are to be considered as the ancestral group for CMH?
Cosidering the oral tradition, did the Lemba Bantu languages disappear, or where they then dominated by Afrasan-speaking groups in the "Near East"?
quote:Hotep2u: I would like to point out that it is possible that the original Priests or Levites might have been the Lemba, or am I not allowed to assume that Lemba originated anything within the Judaic ethnic group.
If you can address some of questions I just listed above, then I suppose you may be onto something with the question you put forth.
quote:Hotep2u: I don't know what you mean so if you want to explain further please do.
Please feel free to respond to these answers.
Thank you
Hotep.
To illustrate as to what I meant by "how" those lineages may have found their way into the Lemba Clans, I'll just reiterate Thomas et al.:
"The results...suggest a genetic history of the Lemba that is not incompatible with their oral tradition. Clearly, there has been a Semitic genetic contribution, including, quite probably, one from Arabs, given the Lembas' presence on the eastern coast of Africa, where Arabs have settled for centuries (Mathew 1963). Both Ashkenazic and Sephardic Israelites are geographically far removed from the Lemba, and, were it not for the Y-chromosome sharing between the Yemeni and Jewish populations, the occurrence of Jewish haplotypes in the Lemba population would be highly suggestive of gene flow between the two groups. However, given the extent of Y-chromosome sharing between the Yemeni and Jewish groups, the presence of such haplotypes because of gene flow from Arab sources cannot be discounted. Support for a Jewish contribution to the Lemba gene pool is, nevertheless, found in the presence, at high frequency in the Lemba, of the CMH (.088 of the entire population and .135 of UEP group 1); the CMH is also observed at moderate frequency in Ashkenazic Israelites (.150 and .231) and Sephardic Israelites (.100 and .161), but it was observed in only a single Yemeni (.020 and .028). Furthermore, in an unpublished study of Palestinian Arabs (A. Nebel, D. Filon, M. Faerman, A. Oppenheim, personal communication), the CMH was present at only very low frequency (<.025).
The CMH has been suggested as a signature haplotype for the ancient Hebrew population, and it may be performing that function in this study (Thomas et al. 1998). Further support for Lemba oral history comes from the Buba/CMH association. However, it is possible that the Lemba CMH Y chromosomes are a consequence of a relatively recent event that, in Lemba oral tradition, has acquired a patina of antiquity."Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
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