posted
The use of different names to describe the Tehenu and Asian in the Ramses III Table of Nations is understood in relation to the political and ethnic conditions in Egypt and Western Asia during this period. The research appears to indicate that the physiognomy of the Libyans had changed by this time . This resulted , for the most part from the invasion of Egypt by Sea Peoples in association with the Libu (Libyans).
The figures on Ramses III Table of nations are associated with the nations Ramses was dealing with iduring his reign. The Libyans attacked Egypt during the 5th and 11th years of Ramses III's reign. Beginning around 1230 Sea People began to attack Egypt. In 1180 Ramses III had his decisive battle with the Libyans. Among the warriors fighting with the Libu were Sea People.
Ramses III made multiple versions of his campaigns against the Libyans. To understand the naming method for Ramses III Table of Nations you have to understand that the term Tehenu was a generic term applied to the Libyans, who by this time were mixed with Palestinian-Syrian people (who were descendants of the Gutians), and People of the Sea (Indo-Europeans).
The attack against Egypt in 1188 was a coalition of tribal groups led by the Meshwesh, who are believed to be a Tamehu nationality. As a result, we find that the Meshwesh were referred to as Tehenu\Tamehu. This may not be correct because the Meshwesh are not mention in Egyptian text until the 14th Century BC.
The members of the coalition were led by Meshesher the wr 'ruler' of the coalition.Each group was led by a "great one" or a magnate. The Meshwesh were semi-nomads that lived both in villages and dmi'w 'towns'.The Tehenu lived in the Delta between the Temehu and the Egyptians. The Egyptians referred to all of the people in this area most often by the generic tern "Tehenu".
The TjemhuTemehu which included the Meshwesh controled an area from Cyrenaica to Syria. As a result, in textual material from the reign of Ramses II, there is mention of Temehu towns in Syria. David O'Connor makes it clear that Ramses III referred to these Temehu by the term Tehenu/Tjehnyu (p.64).
The Temehu were very hostile to the Tehenu/Tjehnya. In fact, the first mention of the Meshwesh in Ramses III inscriptions relating to 1188, was the attack of the Tehenu, by the Meshwqesh, Soped and Sea People . David O'Connor makes it clear that the the records of Ramses III make it clear that the Meshweshy "savagely" attacked the Tehenu and looted their cities during their advance to Egypt (p.35 & 105).
The coalition of the Meshweshy had each unit of the army organized into "family or tribal ' units under the leadership of a "great one". As result to understand why the fAsian and Tehenu figures on the Table of Nations are identified differently you have use both the pictorical and textual material from the reign of Ramses III to understand the representations. As a result, Palestianian -Syrian personage or figure D, is labled Tehenu because he was probably a member of one Meshwesh units, thus he was labled Tehenu. The personage that is second from the Egyptians which is labled an Asian, eventhough he is clearly a Tehenu, was probably a member of a Syrian Palestinian unit when he was captured by the Egyptians thusly he was labled Asian. You can find out more about this reality if you check out: David O'Connor, "The nature of Tjemhu (Libyan) society in later New Kingdom; in Libya and Egypt c1300-750 BC, (Ed.) by Athony Leahy (pp.29-113), SOAS Centre of Near and Middle Eastern Studies and the Society for Libyan Studies, 1990.
In the Table of Nation figure B we see the traditional depiction of a Tehenu, the sidelock, shoulder cape and clean face. The Temehu, called Meshwesh are different from the Tehenu and the original Tamehu recorded by the Egyptians prior to the New Kingdom. Below is a Meshwesh
The Meshwesh wore Tehenu traditional costumes but they are not believed to be real Tehenu. The Tehenu and the Temehu usually wore different costumes. In the New Kingdom depictions of the Temehu, the Meshwesh have "long chin beards", like the Syrian-Palestinians and Peoples of the Sea. They wear kilts, sheaths and capes open at the front tied at one shoulder. Like the earlier Tehenu they wore feathers as a sign of High Status.
David O'Connor makes it clear that there was "marked hetergeneity of the Tjemhu" (p.41). The first attack by Libyans on Egypt were led by the Libu during the 5th year of Ramses III's reign. Diop has provided convincing evidence that the Libu, later migrated into Senegal, where they presenly live near Cape Verde
The difference in dress among the Meshwesh and their hostility toward the Tehenu, have led many researchers to see the Temehu of the New Kingdom as a different group from the original Temehu of Egyptian traditions. O'Connor (p.74) in the work cited above makes it clear that the Temehu in Ramses III day--"[have] hairstyles, dress and apparently ethnic type [that] are markedly different from the Tjehnyu/tjemhu of the Old Kingdom (Osing, 1980,1018-19). Various explanations have been offered: Wainwright, for example, concluded that 'Meshwesh was a mixed tribe of Libu like tribesmen with their native chiefs who become subject to a family of Tjehnu origin'(1962,p.92), while Osing suggested that the New Kingdowm Tjemhu had displaced or absorbed the earlier Tjehnyu but had selectively taken over or retained some Tjehnyu traits, in the case of the rulers for Meshwesh (1980,1019-1020). Dr. O'Connor is of the opinion "that some rulers of the later New Kingdom Tjemhu deliberately adopted traits they discovered from the Egyptians to be charcteristic of ancient Tjehnyu/Tjemhu, so as to increase there prestige, or in some way had these traits imposed upon them by the Egyptians" (p.74).
It is my opinion that given the organiztion of the Libyans into mhwt "family or tribal groups', sometime prior to 1230 BC over an extended period of time Indo-European speaking people later to be known as Peoples of the Sea entered Western Asia and Libya and were adopted by Tehenu families. This adoption of the new immigrants by Tehenu/Tamehu probably led to the Meshwesh and Soped adopting Tehenu customs but maintaining their traditional beards,. The original Temehu, like the Libu probably saw the integration of Sea Peoples into Temehu society as a way to increase their number and possibily conquer Egypt. It is interesting to note that the Meshwesh were very sure they might be able to conquor the Egyptians because they brought their cattle and other animals with them when they invaded the country. Moreover whereas the Meshwesh, were semi-nomadic, the Sea Peoples: Akawashu, Lukki, Tursha., Sheklesh, and Sherden remained nomadic. and used the spear and round shield.
The Nehasyu were ancient members of the Tehenu/Temehu. This would explain the reason why the Meshwesh and Nehasyu were mainly bowman.
In conclusion, the names for the personages in the Table of Nations from Ramses III tomb were labled correctly. These personages were recorded in the the Tables based on the military and family units were attached too, not the country identifiable by their dress.
Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: This belongs in the Maghreb thread which is trying to keep all this kind of info together in one place for easy reference.
Thought Writes:
Why would this belong in the Maghreb thread?
Posts: 2720 | Registered: May 2004
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posted
As it is an excursion in identifying various "eastern Libyans" it very much relates to the Maghreb thread. See there the definition of Maghreb.
quote:Originally posted by Thought2:
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: This belongs in the Maghreb thread which is trying to keep all this kind of info together in one place for easy reference.
Thought Writes:
Why would this belong in the Maghreb thread?
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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See! I (Ramessess III) destroyed them and slew them at one stroke. I overthrew them,
felled them in their own blood, and turned them into heaps of corpses. I turned them back from treading the frontier of Egypt…I brought the rest…as numerous prisoners, pinioned like fowl before my horses, and their wives and children by tens of thousands.
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: As it is an excursion in identifying various "eastern Libyans" it very much relates to the Maghreb thread. See there the definition of Maghreb.
Thought Writes:
These "Libyans" are from NE Africa NOT the Maghreb : NW Africa.
A region of northwest Africa comprising the coastlands and the Atlas Mountains of Morocco, Algeria, and Tunisia.
Posts: 2720 | Registered: May 2004
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posted
...keep in mind that most people continue to make the mistake of not translating the Mdu Ntr words for these ethnic groups into their exact meanings; which I think leads to confusion; add nauseum...
Namou Sho > Nam=traveler - ou=people - Sho=sands; "people who travel the sands" - Nomads who are pictorially shown to be Asiatic.
Tamh > hematite; ochre; reddish > Tamhou Red ones - What today we refer to as White people.
Tehenn = "sparkling", "dazzling", "Egyptian Faience (an opaque glaze, usually strong greenish blue)" Tehennu = "sparkling or dazzling or bright blue ones/people"; portrayed pictorially as Blacks
and so on and so forth.
It's all explained by the Mdu Ntr...
Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
Im lost lol..ok do you have a picture of this table of nations so we can see@Clyde winters and also were any of these groups between libu, tehenu and temehu blacks? Also, the libyans that took the thrown in Egypt were they asiatics, sea people or blacks?
-------------------- Oderint dum metuant!
"Let them hate as long as they fear!" Posts: 33 | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
There is no way that interpretation is accurate, as Egyptians did not think in terms of "Indo Europeans, or Semites or Blacks. And the part of the Egyptian and other Blacks dressing in extly the same clothing does not add up either. You definitely see them dress themselves differently. Even those who are dark skinned. Posts: 163 | Registered: Mar 2006
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The reproduction of Ramses III tomb is by Rich Lepsius and *is* accurate, as can be shown from the actual tomb scenes:
The above are labled km.t[rm.t], and they are very dark and.... dressed...as they are dressed. Period.
Your attempt at rebuttal misses the mark is it shows *other* scenes - one of which is a reproduction also by Lepsius of the Seti I tomb drawing in which km.t and Nhsw are more distinct, another of Princess Kemset, in which Km.t and Aamu are more distinct - neither of which has any bearing on the accuracy of the Ramses III reproduction - in which Km.t and Nhsw are similar, but quite distinct from Aamu/Thnw.
The real question, this thread attempts to access is *why* the Km.t are virtually identical to the Nhsw in the Ramses III tomb scene, and why the Thnw, and Aamu appear to be in reverse from their usual positions.
But....that *is* what is on the tomb walls, so blaming Lepsius, even as his other reproductions are used as "counter evidence" against him, makes no sense.
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posted
In the reproduction from the tomb of Ramses III, figure 'B', is named Tjhnw (Tehenu), not Indo-European. The second Black figure is titled Nhsyw.
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
The drawing you posted does not look like the picture you have posted now.
While you see the dark skinned guys dressed and called Egyptians (rt) (which look like figure A), in the picture, you do not have the other man (C)with the exact same clothing that is supposed to be a foreigner.
I think both A and C are Egyptians (or the same one?
Posts: 163 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: In the reproduction from the tomb of Ramses III, figure 'B', is named Tjhnw (Tehenu), not Indo-European. The second Black figure is titled Nhsyw.
So if figure B is Tehenu, Why are you calling the Tehenu Black Libyans? Figure B doesn't look very Black to me. Maybe, like Egyptians, they had lots of looks?
Posts: 163 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote: The Meshwesh wore Tehenu traditional costumes but they are not believed to be real Tehenu. The Tehenu and the Temehu usually wore different costumes. In the New Kingdom depictions of the Temehu, the Meshwesh have "long chin beards", like the Syrian-Palestinians and Peoples of the Sea. They wear kilts, sheaths and capes open at the front tied at one shoulder. Like the earlier Tehenu they wore feathers as a sign of High Status
quote:Originally posted by SidiRom: The drawing you posted does not look like the picture you have posted now.
While you see the dark skinned guys dressed and called Egyptians (rt) (which look like figure A), in the picture, you do not have the other man (C)with the exact same clothing that is supposed to be a foreigner.)
I think both A and C are Egyptians (or the same one?
You did not read the article I cited which explains this in detail, as Winters explained his theory of the labeling of Tehenu.
posted
sidirom quote: ________________________________________________________________________ So if figure B is Tehenu, Why are you calling the Tehenu Black Libyans? Figure B doesn't look very Black to me. Maybe, like Egyptians, they had lots of looks? _______________________________________________________________________________
He looks Black to me. All Black/African people do not have dark skin.
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
Since when does African African equal Black? Africans come in many hues. Yes they look African. But THAT figure does not look Black.
Posts: 163 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by SidiRom: The drawing you posted does not look like the picture you have posted now.
While you see the dark skinned guys dressed and called Egyptians (rt) (which look like figure A), in the picture, you do not have the other man (C)with the exact same clothing that is supposed to be a foreigner.)
I think both A and C are Egyptians (or the same one?
You did not read the article I cited which explains this in detail, as Winters explained his theory of the labeling of Tehenu.
I did. But I did not see evidence to corroborate that the first drawing is the same as the pictures he posted.
Posts: 163 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote: The Meshwesh wore Tehenu traditional costumes but they are not believed to be real Tehenu. The Tehenu and the Temehu usually wore different costumes. In the New Kingdom depictions of the Temehu, the Meshwesh have "long chin beards", like the Syrian-Palestinians and Peoples of the Sea. They wear kilts, sheaths and capes open at the front tied at one shoulder. Like the earlier Tehenu they wore feathers as a sign of High Status
That image does not have a chin beard.
Posts: 163 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by SidiRom: But I did not see evidence to corroborate that the first drawing is the same as the pictures he posted.
The drawings are reproductions from Kurt Lepsius of the Tomb of Ramses III.
The "pictures" are photos of the actual tomb.
None are so blind as those who will not see.
But supposedly he took the pictures to corroborate the drawings from Lepsius. They don't why not take a picture of the exact same imagery?
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posted
^ This question *was answered* by Ampim. If you didn't get the answer, then you did not read it thuroughly.
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posted
The imagery was too wide claim? And that is why he took two pictures of virtualy the same imagery?
Posts: 163 | Registered: Mar 2006
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"...there are literally countless people in the world who have personally viewed the KV 11 "Table of Nations" images,
and I challenge anyone to publish *original photographs* of ALL FOUR Egyptians and Nubians from the Ramses III tomb, and still claim that the scene as reproduced by Sethe/Lepsius is an erroneous "pastiche."
...it is only fair, isn't it! Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
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posted
Im sorry for being slow lol but could someone catch me up to speed on what the paintings mean and what seems to be the discrepency I don't quite follow the argument
-------------------- Oderint dum metuant!
"Let them hate as long as they fear!" Posts: 33 | Registered: Mar 2006
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Various reproductions of different Tomb scenes including Seti I and Ramses III were made in the 19 century by German scholar Rich Lepsius and Kurt Seth.
Some of these scenes were long exhibited - but some, like the Ramses III scene [shown above] were hidden away - for reasons the must be obvious.
When Diop published his masterpiece - African Origin of Civilisation - he brought this reproduction to public attention.
It shows the Km.t [ancient Egyptians] portraying themselves as extremely dark, virtually jet black, much like the Nhwsy [so called Nubians] and diametrically opposed to the dshr.tu [literally red peoples] - Asiatics and Libyans.
Diop's publishing of the Lepsius accurate reproduction has been attacked for years, by a number of false arguments, or arguments out of ignorance.
Professor Ampim photographed the Tombs for himself to expose the false nature of the attacks against Diop and/or Lepsius and the methodologies used to obscure the truth:
the scene does exist, the Km.t are Black Africans, Lepsius work is faithful, and Diop's publishing of the scene is accurate.
quote:Originally posted by rasol: ^ Lol. slowly he confeses to understanding which most certainly was always the case.
Ampim's photos in the link [which are not all of his photos of the tombs] focus on the specific point of contention. Don't try to distract from it.
Are the group A from Lepsius reproductions Km.t, or not? They are.
Your statement....
quote:Sidirom wrotes: There is no way that interpretation is accurate
.....made without any substantiation and buttressed with irrelevant distractions is *not* correct.
Lepsius is right. You are wrong. Period.
How so? My contention was never that the dark skinned people were not Egyptian. So that argument is a strawman. I am not Yurco. My problem is the claim that Egyptians and the foreigners supposedly are depicted as culturally the same with the same clothing. For that you need to show the picture of those people with the other hieroglyphs. So your claim is flawed and kind of snotty as well.
Posts: 163 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by rasol: the Km.t are Black Africans,
Correction, THOSE Rm.t are Dark Skinned Africans. Other imagery shows Egyptians as brown skinned. Thus it shows the plurality of the culture. Posts: 163 | Registered: Mar 2006
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If any one needs a source of reference for the nations listed above here it is, E.A. Wallis Budge, AN Egyptian Hieroglyphic Dictionary Volumes 1 and 2.
E.A. Wallis Budge Volume 1 Page 344 on your left under Ti'hsu is C = Sudanese
I assume their was a Kemetic nome is the south or people in the South (may be the ancient Tutsi people) called ti-t page \E.A. Wallis Budge 822 Volume2
E.A. Wallis Budge Volume II Page 855 themhu= Libyans is D
quote:Correction, THOSE Rm.t are Dark Skinned Africans.
Correction: Black Africans *are* dark skinned Africans so your 'qualifier' is empty, and is in fact redundant.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote:All Africans are not Black so your assumption that the qualifier is not neccesary is incorrect.
I didn't say all Africans were Black, so your qualifier relates to nothing but your own straw argument.
Your posts are little more than a series of irrelevant comments, which increasingly suggest your frustration with reality of Black Km.t, as shown on Ramses III Tomb scene photos and Lepsuis ACCURATE reproduction below, which you have been unable to refute, in any way.
I suggest you swallow your sour grapes and stop blaming the messenger.
quote:Originally posted by rasol: I didn't say all Africans were Black, so your qualifier relates to nothing but your own straw argument.
You are the one building strawmen. You have not shown that the Rm.t portrayed are dressed the same as those supposedly foreing from the south.
quote:Your posts are little more than a series of irrelevant comments, which increasingly suggest your frustration with reality of Black Km.t, as shown on Ramses III Tomb scene photos and Lepsuis ACCURATE reproduction below, which you have been unable to refute, in any way.
But others have. And your webiste has not refuted those claims as no picture has been shown of the other groups. And your strawman of a Black Km't which is wrong does not relate to the fact the Km.t had a black population along with other populations.
quote:I suggest you swallow your sour grapes and stop blaming the messenger.
It seems you are the one obsessing on the messenger because you have no concrete evidence of the message.
Posts: 163 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by rasol: ^ Wrong again. The message shown above, is from the Km.t. It is quite literally, set in stone [concrete] and written on the wall. [quote] No, that is a trascription. The only thing set in stone we saw on your pictures was the group labeled Rm.t
[quote]Obviously you get it, and you sure can't refute it, so why continue to vent?
Obviously you don't get it. Where is the evidence for the OTHER dark skinned peoples labeled foreigners that dress the same as Egyptians.
Posts: 163 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by rasol: ^ Wrong again. The message shown above, is from the Km.t. It is quite literally, set in stone [concrete] and written on the wall. [quote] No, that is a trascription. The only thing set in stone we saw on your pictures was the group labeled Rm.t
[quote]Obviously you get it, and you sure can't refute it, so why continue to vent?
Obviously you don't get it. Where is the evidence for the OTHER dark skinned peoples labeled foreigners that dress the same as Egyptians.
How the Nubians dressed in the photo in question, even if it is the same as those of the Egyptians, is irrelevant to the point of the photos shown, which was, the depiction representing 'Egyptians'. So the real question is whether you are denying that those dark skin individuals represent the Kemetians or the "Rmt", as spelt out in the text?
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posted
^ Correct. Obtuseness is no defense. The desparate lengths that people go to - to try and distract attention from an unpleasant truth never fails to amuse. Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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1. Is it possible this is a depiction of slaves/servants?
Why would they be? There is no text therein to suggest such, nor do I see indication of ridicule or humiliation in the depictions.
quote:Senkhemdjed:
2. Are/were the Tenehu black libyans?
The 'Tehenu' are supposed to be the dark Skin 'Libyans'. The 'Temehu' are supposed to be the later lighter-toned inhabitants of the region.
Something interesting that I feel is often overlooked in the aforementioned Rameses III tomb wall paintings due to too much emphasis placed on the appearance of the Kemetians, though not unheard of [e.g. as in a few depictions of 'laborers'], is the 'beardless' Asiatics in that same depiction, not to mention the interesting hairstyle.
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posted
1.) No. This scene is associated with religious text, stating that the Rm.t and Nehasu are children of Horus, son of Osirus and Isis.
2) The Egyptians called the population of the neighboring Libya `Tehenu.' They were pictured with dark complexion and curly hair.[Ahmed Fakhir, `Siwa Oasis', (Cairo, 1973), p. 75]
3) I don't know the ehnic background of Osorkon.
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posted
The condensed painting (Lepsius' Denkmaeler plate 48) is an accurate reproduction of what's in Ramses III tomb (KV 11). Many inaccurate claims have been made about it which is one reason I present it here without Diop's commentary.
I think this is the original Denkmaeler plate.
What I really want to point out is that the word Tjhnw (Tehenu) appears nowhere on that plate or any of the other reproductions of vignette 30 of the Gate of Teka Hra in the Book of Gates.
The word next to the rightmost figure is TMHHW (Tjemehu Tamehu Tamahu etc.)
The THHNW and the TMHHW both were KM.t's immediate western neighbors but were also distinct, though related, ethnies. The Tehenu lived more to the north at delta latitudes while the Tamehu were more to the south near the various NHHSW peoples.
Both show up in Old Kingdom documents. Tehenou, they were as dark as Kmtyw, appear pinioned on the reliefs of Neuserre and Sahure (Dynasty V) who defeated them.
Tamehou are mentioned by Harkhuf a royal merchant for Pepy II (Dynasty VI) in reference to a brewing war between them and the NHHSW of Yam.
As the painting above makes clear the Tamehou are not in the Nehesi category.
Before 12th dynasty times both Tehenou and Tamehou were painted the same general shades as the Kmtyw. The Tehenou were for sure indigenous "Libyans" and representative of the black phenotypes in "Libya." They were not Nilotics nor Bantu nor Sudanese. They were a local "Libyan" ethnic group and quite different from the people who today want to use them as proof of protohistoric Imazighen in KM.t. Imazighen do not appear in KM.t until the Late Kingdom as the Meshwesh.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: In the reproduction from the tomb of Ramses III, figure 'B', is named Tjhnw (Tehenu), not Indo-European. The second Black figure is titled Nhsyw.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
No more excuses about where the "Nubian" photos went, or whether the lack of 'direct' posting of photos of the Nhsw in the aforementioned link, has anything to do with a desire to mislead the reader. Here they are, the "Nubians":
Courtesy of Mr. Ampim, depictions of the Nehesw or the "Nubians"...
And now, the Rmt or Kemetians [note: the damaged portion, but Horus' legs and a portion of his arm is visible at the far left hand side of the photo]:
Finally, photos of Rmt and Nhsw side by side:
Dress codes and complexion are similar to me. Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
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posted
alTakruri quote: __________________________________________________________ What I really want to point out is that the word Tjhnw (Tehenu) appears nowhere on that plate or any of the other reproductions of vignette 30 of the Gate of Teka Hra in the Book of Gates.
The word next to the rightmost figure is TMHHW (Tjemehu Tamehu Tamahu etc.)
The THHNW and the TMHHW both were KM.t's immediate western neighbors but were also distinct, though related, ethnies. The Tehenu lived more to the north at delta latitudes while the Tamehu were more to the south near the various NHHSW peoples.
You are wrong the Rameses III relief clearly illustrates that the people on the relief from left to right are Rmt (Egyptian), Tjhnw (Libyans),Nhsy (Kushites) and Aamw (Syro-Palestinians). This reality is discussed by F.J. Yurco, in his article on the Rameses III relief, in Egypt in Africa, (Ed.) Theorore Celenke (1996).
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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I think this is the original Denkmaeler plate.
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