quote:Originally posted by Underpants Man: How do Greeks' E3b levels compare with those of Turks? I recall reading somewhere that Greeks have higher levels than do Turks, thus ruling against an Ottoman origin for Greek E3b, but I don't know for sure.
Thought answered this previously:
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
^ Of course he did. But if you argue with loons for too long...eventually you parrot their looniness.
This is a good faith warning to you too UP man, as you frequent those sites.
I don't know why folks won't read biology text books before debating supremacists.
You end trying to refute half of their nonsense, while buying into the other 1/2, because you can't tell cluster from clade to begin with. lol.
This way - they win, and you lose.
Remember I clued you in on the relationship betwen EE and Dienekes to begin with.
No disrespect but I have to agree with Thought - Charles, I sometimes wonder if you are really as naive' as you pretend to be?.
Anyway, here is the info you asked for earlier.
It answers your question, for anyone who cares to listen:
quote: Charles posted:
On the other forum it was mentioned that E3b1 alpha was derived from E3b1 delta. I've searched every available publication on E3b1 and none have ever made that statement, so where's the proof?
Thought posted:
You are absoluetly correct.
The Cruciani et al study does not explicitly state that alpha derived from delta.
It does state that delta spread from East Africa to Europe *after* ~14,000 years ago. It also states that alpha derived in Europe.
Hence it requires a commonsensical sort of extrapolation.
"The fourth cluster **delta **(cluster in fig. 2B) is present, albeit at low frequencies, in **all** of the regions analyzed (4.0% in eastern and northern Africa, 3.3% in the Near East, and 1.5% in Europe) and shows a notable microsatellite differentiation (fig. 2B). The two E-M78 chromosomes found in Pakistan, at the eastern borders of the area of dispersal of haplogroup E3b, also belong to **cluster delta**.
On the basis of these data, we suggest that cluster delta was involved in a **first dispersal** or dispersals of E-M78 chromosomes from eastern Africa into northern Africa and the Near East. Time-of-divergence estimates for E-M78 chromosomes suggest a relatively great antiquity (14.7 ± 2.7 ky) for the separation of eastern Africans from the other populations. A later range expansion from the Near East or, possibly, from northern Africa would have introduced E-M78 cluster **delta** into Europe. However, given the low frequencies of E-M78 delta, it seems to have contributed only marginally to the shaping of the **present** E-M78 frequency distribution in Africa and western Eurasia. Indeed, later (and previously undetected) demographic population expansions involving clusters alpha in Europe (TMRCA 7.8 ky; 95% CI 6.39.2 ky), beta in northwestern Africa (5.2 ky; 95% CI 3.27.5 ky), and gamma in eastern Africa (9.6 ky; 95% CI 7.212.9 ky) should be considered the main contributors to the relatively high frequency of haplogroup E-M78 in the surveyed area." - Cruciani et al.
quote: Charles posts: If we read Cruciani's study he says the spread of E3b chromosones isn't so simple, so that extrapolation is *NOT* an absolute truth. Delta cluster was involve in several dispersals possibly so should we have several more clusters from each dispersal?
^
quote: Thought posts:
1) There are NO absolutes in statistics because all forms of statistical analysis are based upon probability, hence there is the margin of error.
2) Common sense can be of assistance as well. E3b1 alpha is derived from E3b1 and has a MRCA of ~8,000 ky. E3b1 is absent in Europe. E3b1 beta is virtually absent in the Balkans. E3b1 gamma is restricted to East Africa. E3b1 delta predates E3b1 alpha AND is located in the Balkans. This is why E3b1 delta is considered the precursor of E3b1 alpha.
Charles could not *debate* Thought or Supercar on this point because he didn't understand what clusters were to begin with.
This is why he keeps emailing geneticists and asking them, while he stalls in debates by claiming that the difference between clusters and clades doesn't matter.
If it doesn't matter, why keep asking?
Why keep asking even after you been given answer?
Because he can't accept the answer given and keeps looking for one that he can 'use', to make and insane [AND RACIST] argument that one can have and African lineage defined by and African Original Event Polymorphism and yet - have no African ancestry.
Charles argument is and insult to intelligence and beneath contempt.
It is good that Charlie emails geneticists.
The problem is that he is not looking to learn, and therefore 'doesn't listen'.
He's far too busy looking for ammunition to justify his past foolish remarks.
Charles is making this argument because Dienekes lied to him, by telling him that clusters could be treated the same as clades.
But that is false, and the argument ends right there, even though his pointless 'argu-ing' will no doubt continue.
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quote:In fact, all three of them now harbor the exact same position on this issue, and Charles and Evil Euro both essentially parrot Dienkes verbatim.
I had the impression that Topdog strongly disagreed with Dienekes and Evil Euro.
Of course I strongly disagree with Pontikos and Evil Euro, rasol is clueless with his loser tactic personal attacks.
Posts: 2595 | From: Vicksburg | Registered: Feb 2006
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^ Still smelling yourself and blaming the stink on others, as usual.
In fact your bizarrely genetically illiterate claims with regards to E3b in Europeans parrots Dienekes, whose argument here you and EE both copy to the letter.
That's why your post above fails to differeniate, in any specific way.
No?
Feel free then, to spell out the specific difference in your position on E3b in Europeans, from that of whom you learned it from -> Dienekes, your nemesis, and your tutor.Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote:Originally posted by rasol: ^ Of course he did. But if you argue with loons for too long...eventually you parrot their looniness.
This is a good faith warning to you too UP man, as you frequent those sites.
Same ad-hominem personal attack that shows your inane stupidity, whgen Evil Euro was still here largely because of the work I put in you were able to refute most if not all of his arguments. Whether it was providing studies, quots from books or email correspondence from geneticists, I put the work in.
quote:You end trying to refute half of their nonsense, while buying into the other 1/2, because you can't tell cluster from clade to begin with. lol.
Idiot, when i don't clearly understand something I ask the professionals for answers which is what I did so asking me the same question over and over again about a term that hasn't even been defined genetically yet shows your stupidity once again. The clade/cluster argument is a stupid red herring argument to delect attention away from your real position. Your contention is that since the alpha cluster belongs to the E-M78 network[and since the M-78 clade is African in origin] everyone ´sharing ancestry in the M78 clade has African ancestry, which is false, no published data has ever stated that fallacious point, it is you who has. Now that i reject it and refuse to accept you fallacious position, I'm siding and agreing with Evil Euro and Pontikos? Are you really that retarded?
quote:No disrespect but I have to agree with Thought - Charles, I sometimes wonder if you are really as naive' as you pretend to be?.
I get it, disagreeing with anyone's position makes me naive and stupid? No, you are the stupid one and its been demonstrated here time and time again that disagreeing with you and or Supercar inspires ad-hominem, silly personal attacks. Sorry, i stand on my own as a lone wolf without lumbar support.
quote:This is why he keeps emailing geneticists and asking them, while he stalls in debates by claiming that the difference between clusters and clades doesn't matter.
The cluster/clade strawman you keep bringing up is a red herring, your logic is that clusters mean nothing and clades means everything...that is when the focus is obsession with African ancestry in Southern Europeans. If the clusters are meaningless, why are they mentioned in published data?
quote: that one can have and African lineage defined by and African Original Event Polymorphism and yet - have no African ancestry.
*ALL* humans are descended from an original African event Polymorphism[that still present in East Africa, Underhill et al 2001], does that make everyone on this damn planet African genetically?
quote:Charles is making this argument because Dienekes lied to him, by telling him that clusters could be treated the same as clades.
A lie and a stupid personal attack, Pontikos told me nothing, please produce evidence of this, everything I quoted came from published data and personal email communication with professionals.
Posts: 2595 | From: Vicksburg | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by rasol: Of course he did. But if you argue with loons for too long...eventually you parrot their looniness.
This is a good faith warning to you too UP man, as you frequent those sites.
quote:Charles writes: Same ad-hominem personal attack that shows your inane stupidity
No, it's a general point and good-faith warning as note....it didn't apply specifically or only to you.
That *you chose* to take it personally and respond to it with flame-attacks [albeit laughbly weak ones], is the product of how you feel about yourself.
quote:Originally posted by rasol: Still smelling yourself and blaming the stink on others, as usual.
Still aiting o you to email a geneticist your lunatic position and post a reponse where one agrees with it, which you're obviously too afraid to do.
quote:In fact your bizarrely genetically illiterate claims with regards to E3b in Europeans parrots Dienekes, whose argument here you and EE both copy to the letter.
No stupid, EE and Pontikos stated that E3b was Caucasoid and "East Africa Caucasoid and associated E3b with so-called "caucasoid features", I have made no such dumb claims. It was I who emailed Underhill in fact and posted his reply to me to refute their nonsense. Get your head out of your rear end before maiing dumb statements
Posts: 2595 | From: Vicksburg | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:EE and Pontikos stated that E3b was Caucasoid.
They base this in part on the lunatic [impossible] claim that Europeans have and E3b, and African lineage, but no African ancestry, due to alpha cluster - which somehow negates African ancestry - thru the magic of pseudoscience, a claim that you parrot - to a TEE.
In what way do you disagree?
How are they wrong?
If you know their claim is a lie, why do you repeat it?
If you will simply stop parroting Dienekes lies, we can conclude this increasingly uncivil discourse.
quote:Charles writes: Pontikos told me nothing.
Well, denial is "par for the course."
But, denial is not answer, now is it?
quote:Originally posted by rasol:
quote:Chalres wrote: I smell cowardice.
^ Still smelling yourself and blaming the stink on others, as usual.
In fact your bizarrely genetically illiterate claims with regards to E3b in Europeans parrots Dienekes, whose argument here you and EE both copy to the letter.
That's why your post above fails to differeniate, in any specific way.
No?
Feel free then, to spell out the specific difference in your position on E3b in Europeans, from that of whom you learned it from -> Dienekes, your nemisis, and your tutor.
quote:This is a good faith warning to you too UP man, as you frequent those sites.
Actually, although I have visited Racial Reality and Pontikos' blog a few times, I don't visit them often (perhaps twice or three times at most). I have no interest in starting the kind of brain cell holocaust that would ensue from paying a lot of attention to those Greco/Sicilo-Nazis.
BTW, I should have mentioned this earlier, but in response to my question about differences in E3b levels between Turks and Greeks, you said:
quote:Thought answered this previously:
Nothing came afterwards. Did you intend to post a link or something?
Posts: 7083 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by rasol: Of course he did. But if you argue with loons for too long...eventually you parrot their looniness.
This is a good faith warning to you too UP man, as you frequent those sites.
quote:Charles writes: Same ad-hominem personal attack that shows your inane stupidity
No, it's a general point and didn't apply specifically to you.
That *you chose* to take it personally and respond to it with flame-attacks [albeit laughbly weak ones], is the product of how you feel about yourself.
Sorry.
You started the flame attacks now I'm returning the fire, I take no man's nonsense.
Posts: 2595 | From: Vicksburg | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:UPman writes: Did you intend to post a link or something?
quote: Charles posted:
On the other forum it was mentioned that E3b1 alpha was derived from E3b1 delta. I've searched every available publication on E3b1 and none have ever made that statement, so where's the proof?
Thought posted:
You are absoluetly correct.
The Cruciani et al study does not explicitly state that alpha derived from delta.
It does state that delta spread from East Africa to Europe *after* ~14,000 years ago. It also states that alpha derived in Europe.
Hence it requires a commonsensical sort of extrapolation.
"The fourth cluster **delta **(cluster in fig. 2B) is present, albeit at low frequencies, in **all** of the regions analyzed (4.0% in eastern and northern Africa, 3.3% in the Near East, and 1.5% in Europe) and shows a notable microsatellite differentiation (fig. 2B). The two E-M78 chromosomes found in Pakistan, at the eastern borders of the area of dispersal of haplogroup E3b, also belong to **cluster delta**.
On the basis of these data, we suggest that cluster delta was involved in a **first dispersal** or dispersals of E-M78 chromosomes from eastern Africa into northern Africa and the Near East. Time-of-divergence estimates for E-M78 chromosomes suggest a relatively great antiquity (14.7 ± 2.7 ky) for the separation of eastern Africans from the other populations. A later range expansion from the Near East or, possibly, from northern Africa would have introduced E-M78 cluster **delta** into Europe. However, given the low frequencies of E-M78 delta, it seems to have contributed only marginally to the shaping of the **present** E-M78 frequency distribution in Africa and western Eurasia. Indeed, later (and previously undetected) demographic population expansions involving clusters alpha in Europe (TMRCA 7.8 ky; 95% CI 6.39.2 ky), beta in northwestern Africa (5.2 ky; 95% CI 3.27.5 ky), and gamma in eastern Africa (9.6 ky; 95% CI 7.212.9 ky) should be considered the main contributors to the relatively high frequency of haplogroup E-M78 in the surveyed area." - Cruciani et al.
quote: Charles posts: If we read Cruciani's study he says the spread of E3b chromosones isn't so simple, so that extrapolation is *NOT* an absolute truth. Delta cluster was involve in several dispersals possibly so should we have several more clusters from each dispersal?
^
quote: Thought posts:
1) There are NO absolutes in statistics because all forms of statistical analysis are based upon probability, hence there is the margin of error.
2) Common sense can be of assistance as well. E3b1 alpha is derived from E3b1 and has a MRCA of ~8,000 ky. E3b1 is absent in Europe. E3b1 beta is virtually absent in the Balkans. E3b1 gamma is restricted to East Africa. E3b1 delta predates E3b1 alpha AND is located in the Balkans. This is why E3b1 delta is considered the precursor of E3b1 alpha.
Charles could not *debate* Thought or Supercar on this point because he didn't understand what clusters were to begin with.
This is why he keeps emailing geneticists and asking them, while he stalls in debates by claiming that the difference between clusters and clades doesn't matter.
If it doesn't matter, why keep asking?
Why keep asking even after you been given answer?
Because he can't accept the answer given and keeps looking for one that he can 'use', to make and insane [AND RACIST] argument that one can have and African lineage defined by and African Original Event Polymorphism and yet - have no African ancestry.
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quote:UPman writes: Did you intend to post a link or something?
quote: Charles posted:
On the other forum it was mentioned that E3b1 alpha was derived from E3b1 delta. I've searched every available publication on E3b1 and none have ever made that statement, so where's the proof?
Thought posted:
You are absoluetly correct.
The Cruciani et al study does not explicitly state that alpha derived from delta.
It does state that delta spread from East Africa to Europe *after* ~14,000 years ago. It also states that alpha derived in Europe.
Hence it requires a commonsensical sort of extrapolation.
"The fourth cluster **delta **(cluster in fig. 2B) is present, albeit at low frequencies, in **all** of the regions analyzed (4.0% in eastern and northern Africa, 3.3% in the Near East, and 1.5% in Europe) and shows a notable microsatellite differentiation (fig. 2B). The two E-M78 chromosomes found in Pakistan, at the eastern borders of the area of dispersal of haplogroup E3b, also belong to **cluster delta**.
On the basis of these data, we suggest that cluster delta was involved in a **first dispersal** or dispersals of E-M78 chromosomes from eastern Africa into northern Africa and the Near East. Time-of-divergence estimates for E-M78 chromosomes suggest a relatively great antiquity (14.7 ± 2.7 ky) for the separation of eastern Africans from the other populations. A later range expansion from the Near East or, possibly, from northern Africa would have introduced E-M78 cluster **delta** into Europe. However, given the low frequencies of E-M78 delta, it seems to have contributed only marginally to the shaping of the **present** E-M78 frequency distribution in Africa and western Eurasia. Indeed, later (and previously undetected) demographic population expansions involving clusters alpha in Europe (TMRCA 7.8 ky; 95% CI 6.39.2 ky), beta in northwestern Africa (5.2 ky; 95% CI 3.27.5 ky), and gamma in eastern Africa (9.6 ky; 95% CI 7.212.9 ky) should be considered the main contributors to the relatively high frequency of haplogroup E-M78 in the surveyed area." - Cruciani et al.
quote: Charles posts: If we read Cruciani's study he says the spread of E3b chromosones isn't so simple, so that extrapolation is *NOT* an absolute truth. Delta cluster was involve in several dispersals possibly so should we have several more clusters from each dispersal?
^
quote: Thought posts:
1) There are NO absolutes in statistics because all forms of statistical analysis are based upon probability, hence there is the margin of error.
2) Common sense can be of assistance as well. E3b1 alpha is derived from E3b1 and has a MRCA of ~8,000 ky. E3b1 is absent in Europe. E3b1 beta is virtually absent in the Balkans. E3b1 gamma is restricted to East Africa. E3b1 delta predates E3b1 alpha AND is located in the Balkans. This is why E3b1 delta is considered the precursor of E3b1 alpha.
Charles could not *debate* Thought or Supercar on this point because he didn't understand what clusters were to begin with.
This is why he keeps emailing geneticists and asking them, while he stalls in debates by claiming that the difference between clusters and clades doesn't matter.
If it doesn't matter, why keep asking?
Why keep asking even after you been given answer?
Because he can't accept the answer given and keeps looking for one that he can 'use', to make and insane [AND RACIST] argument that one can have and African lineage defined by and African Original Event Polymorphism and yet - have no African ancestry.
What does that have to do with Turks?
Posts: 7083 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:UPman writes: Did you intend to post a link or something?
quote: Charles posted:
On the other forum it was mentioned that E3b1 alpha was derived from E3b1 delta. I've searched every available publication on E3b1 and none have ever made that statement, so where's the proof?
Thought posted:
You are absoluetly correct.
The Cruciani et al study does not explicitly state that alpha derived from delta.
It does state that delta spread from East Africa to Europe *after* ~14,000 years ago. It also states that alpha derived in Europe.
Hence it requires a commonsensical sort of extrapolation.
"The fourth cluster **delta **(cluster in fig. 2B) is present, albeit at low frequencies, in **all** of the regions analyzed (4.0% in eastern and northern Africa, 3.3% in the Near East, and 1.5% in Europe) and shows a notable microsatellite differentiation (fig. 2B). The two E-M78 chromosomes found in Pakistan, at the eastern borders of the area of dispersal of haplogroup E3b, also belong to **cluster delta**.
On the basis of these data, we suggest that cluster delta was involved in a **first dispersal** or dispersals of E-M78 chromosomes from eastern Africa into northern Africa and the Near East. Time-of-divergence estimates for E-M78 chromosomes suggest a relatively great antiquity (14.7 ± 2.7 ky) for the separation of eastern Africans from the other populations. A later range expansion from the Near East or, possibly, from northern Africa would have introduced E-M78 cluster **delta** into Europe. However, given the low frequencies of E-M78 delta, it seems to have contributed only marginally to the shaping of the **present** E-M78 frequency distribution in Africa and western Eurasia. Indeed, later (and previously undetected) demographic population expansions involving clusters alpha in Europe (TMRCA 7.8 ky; 95% CI 6.39.2 ky), beta in northwestern Africa (5.2 ky; 95% CI 3.27.5 ky), and gamma in eastern Africa (9.6 ky; 95% CI 7.212.9 ky) should be considered the main contributors to the relatively high frequency of haplogroup E-M78 in the surveyed area." - Cruciani et al.
quote: Charles posts: If we read Cruciani's study he says the spread of E3b chromosones isn't so simple, so that extrapolation is *NOT* an absolute truth. Delta cluster was involve in several dispersals possibly so should we have several more clusters from each dispersal?
^
quote: Thought posts:
1) There are NO absolutes in statistics because all forms of statistical analysis are based upon probability, hence there is the margin of error.
2) Common sense can be of assistance as well. E3b1 alpha is derived from E3b1 and has a MRCA of ~8,000 ky. E3b1 is absent in Europe. E3b1 beta is virtually absent in the Balkans. E3b1 gamma is restricted to East Africa. E3b1 delta predates E3b1 alpha AND is located in the Balkans. This is why E3b1 delta is considered the precursor of E3b1 alpha.
Charles could not *debate* Thought or Supercar on this point because he didn't understand what clusters were to begin with.
This is why he keeps emailing geneticists and asking them, while he stalls in debates by claiming that the difference between clusters and clades doesn't matter.
If it doesn't matter, why keep asking?
Why keep asking even after you been given answer?
Because he can't accept the answer given and keeps looking for one that he can 'use', to make and insane [AND RACIST] argument that one can have and African lineage defined by and African Original Event Polymorphism and yet - have no African ancestry.
Argument By Repetition (Argument Ad Nauseam)
Changing The Subject (Digression, Red Herring, Misdirection, False Emphasis)
^ No actually I was asked a question by Upman and replying to him.
quote:UPman writes: Did you intend to post a link or something?
I reposted it because UPman missed it when you interrupted, Charles.
Of course you have no answers for that or anything else, so you're correct in noting that there should be no need to repeat the facts, and no excuse for anyone not grasping them.
quote:Charles writes: Needling
^ Ad hominem whining, and attempting to distract instead of answering.
quote:Originally posted by Underpants Man: ]What does that have to do with Turks?
Nothing, the guy is simply babbling and making non-sequitir. Turks have less E3b than Greeks, I thought I posted an answer earlier in this thread, it could have been missed.
Posts: 2595 | From: Vicksburg | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:UPman writes: What does that have to do with Turks?
Everything:
Egyptian M78 lineages are highly consistent with a northbound migration *through the Levantine corridor*, reflected in M78 males as far north as Turkey.- Luis, et. al., 2004
Where are the Balkans in relation to Turkey?
Common sense can be of assistance as well. E3b1 alpha is derived from E3b1 and has a MRCA of ~8,000 ky. E3b1 is absent in Europe. E3b1 beta is virtually absent in the Balkans. E3b1 gamma is restricted to East Africa. E3b1 delta predates E3b1 alpha AND is located in the Balkans. This is why E3b1 delta is considered the precursor of E3b1 alpha. - Thought.
How did E3b spread from Africa to Europe as denoted by Cruciani and Luis above?
How do clusters help us track these migrations of E3b Africans?
All of this has been covered thuroughly, and Charles knows it.
Charles wants to dissociate 'alpha' cluster from clade E3b1, and then redefine the clade by it's cluster, in order to provide a fake emaculate conception for E3b1 in Europe.
But that makes no sense to anyone who understands genetics.
That's why he had no rebuttal to us then [a year ago!], and still doesn't today.
So why are we repeating the same discussion now?
He'd just rather it be forgotten, or not understood. Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
^ The same thing as Cruciani and Luis quoted above, we've discussed all of this innumerable times before on Egyptsearch, so if you search E3b you'll find tons.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Underpants Man: Can you two just vist your local pharmacies and buy chill pills? I don't want this argument to morph into a clone of the ones with Evil Euro.
I fear it is too late for that now, UP Man!
Look at how many pages this 'debate' has ensued. Definitely a repeat of the Evil-Euro wars (just without the racial epithets).
Posts: 26286 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by rasol: ^ The same thing as Cruciani and Luis quoted above, we've discussed all of this innumerable times before on Egyptsearch, so if you search E3b you'll find tons.
Cruciani and Luis et al papers do not support your idiotic assertions so don't pretend to act as if they do.
Posts: 2595 | From: Vicksburg | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
^ Childish ventings may relieve your frustations at being refuted by Cruciani and Luis, but don't kid yourself. It won't save you:
Egyptian M78 lineages are highly consistent with a northbound migration *through the Levantine corridor, reflected in M78 males as far north as Turkey.- Luis, et. al., 2004
M78 chromosomes are of African origin, there was A TWO STEPS MIGRATION, from Africa to the MidEast & the MidEast to Europe. - Cruciani, 2006.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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Egyptian M78 lineages are highly consistent with a northbound migration *through the Levantine corridor*, reflected in M78 males as far north as Turkey.- Luis, et. al., 2004
Turks have M78 delta and alpha clusters with the delta cluster being indicative of a much earlier Paleolithic migration out of Africa, as well as having the alpha cluster which is younger in Turkey than in Europe.
quote:Where are the Balkans in relation to Turkey?
Common sense can be of assistance as well. E3b1 alpha is derived from E3b1 and has a MRCA of ~8,000 ky. E3b1 is absent in Europe. E3b1 beta is virtually absent in the Balkans. E3b1 gamma is restricted to East Africa. E3b1 delta predates E3b1 alpha AND is located in the Balkans. This is why E3b1 delta is considered the precursor of E3b1 alpha. - Thought.
No where is it stated that the alpha cluster is derived from the delta cluster, I remind that both are clusters and using your logic you're stating the alpha cluster is a cluster of a cluster, which isn't stated. Thought acknowledges that himself that this isn'*t stated but he makes *HIS* onw inference that it is. A theory unsubstantiated is *NOT* irrefutable proof and you know that. [
quote:How do clusters help us track these migrations of E3b Africans?
Clusters are defined by the rare STR alleles that characterize them, they're not fancy names for M78 for use of tracking migrations nor are they all them same. The alpha cluster doesn't denote a migration from Africa to Europe but it does denote a migration from the Near east to Europe as already stated ad-naseum. M78 alpha chromosones declines in Europe as one moves West, so using your logic that the alpha cluster denotes an "African Neolithic" migration into Europe are you saying that Africans migrated north out of Africa through Egypt into the Levant as far north s Turkey then these same Africans turned west and migrated all the way to southwestern Europe? If so you're smarter than Cruciani also:
"the clinal frequency distribution of E-M78 within Europe testifies to important dispersal(s), most likely Neolithic or post-Neolithic. These took place from the Balkans, where the highest frequencies are observed, in all directions, as far as Iberia to the west and, most likely, also to Turkey to the southeast. Thus, it appears that, in Europe, the overall frequency pattern of the haplogroup E-M78, the most frequent E3b haplogroup in this region, is mostly contributed by a new molecular type that distinguishes it from the aboriginal E3b chromosomes from the Near East. These data are hard to reconcile with the hypothesis of a uniform spread of a single Near Eastern gene pool into southeastern Europe. On the other hand, they might be consistent with either a small-scale leapfrog migration from Anatolia into southeastern Europe at the beginning of the Neolithic or with an expansion of indigenous people in southeastern Europe in response to the arrival of the Neolithic cultural package. At the present level of phylogenetic resolution, it is difficult to distinguish between these possibilities."
Note, neither one of the possibilities state that M78 were introduced into Europe by any "African" Neolithic nor by Africans and Southwest Asians.
quote:Charles wants to dissociate 'alpha' cluster from clade E3b1, and then redefine the clade by it's cluster, in order to provide a fake emaculate conception for E3b1 in Europe.
Lies, I simply stated what was stated in published data the way it was said without adding any nonsense to it. You're the one calling it "African Neolithic ancestry" when no such thing has been said in published data
Posts: 2595 | From: Vicksburg | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by rasol: Childish ventings may relieve your frustations at being refuted by Cruciani and Luis, but don't kid yourself. It won't save you:
Quit playing with yourself kid, Cruciani didn't refute me, he refuted you.
quote:Egyptian M78 lineages are highly consistent with a northbound migration *through the Levantine corridor, reflected in M78 males as far north as Turkey.- Luis, et. al., 2004
The Egyptian M78 lineages simply tell the direction the migration took, there are no distinctive "Egyptian" M78 lineages.
quote:M78 chromosomes are of African origin, there was A TWO STEPS MIGRATION, from Africa to the MidEast & the MidEast to Europe. - Cruciani, 2006. [/QB]
Ok, but Crucinai didn't say it was a two step migration of *AFRICANS* into Europe, just one from Africa into the Near East. You're too thick in the skull to see this.
Posts: 2595 | From: Vicksburg | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Turks have M78 delta and alpha clusters with the delta cluster being indicative of a much earlier Paleolithic migration out of Africa
Wrong again, the delta cluster originates in East Africa 14kya~. Since underived E3b1 lineages are *not* found in Eurasia, this time period marks the earliest possible beginning of African migrations into Eurasia.
It does *not* denote the "last" of such migrations, it does not denote the 'first' of such migrations either....but merely the earliest possible.
And therefore does not denote 'a much earlier' migration.
We have explained this to you time and time again.
quote:Thought wrote: Common sense can be of assistance as well. E3b1 alpha is derived from E3b1 and has a MRCA of ~8,000 ky. E3b1 is absent in Europe. E3b1 beta is virtually absent in the Balkans. E3b1 gamma is restricted to East Africa. E3b1 delta predates E3b1 alpha AND is located in the Balkans. This is why E3b1 delta is considered the precursor of E3b1 alpha. - Thought.
The above is correct.
Charles response by asking a question which Thought just answered, only he doesn't understand what clusters are, and so doesn't understand the answer.
And since he refuses to understand, then he *cannot* by his own choice understand the answer.
No matter how much it is broken down and simplified for him, and no matter how many times it is explained.
Hence the redundant discussion continues.....
quote:Charles: No where is it stated that the alpha cluster is derived from the delta cluster
Thought answered this. Cruciani answerd this, Supercar answerd this, and I answerd this.
You simply refuse to understand any fact that you do not like:
Clusters are not clades.
You cannot treat them as such.
They cannot be 'delineated' as deriving sequentially one from another.
They simply tell us when lineages such as E3b1 expand into different population groups.
So read again care-full-y this time:
quote:E3b1 alpha is derived from E3b1 and has a MRCA of ~8,000 ky
quote:E3b1 delta is considered the precursor of E3b1 alpha
.
Again read and keep reading until you understand:
Since the E3b underived lineages appear to be confined mostly to the sub-Saharan Africans, initial migrations toward North Africa from the south primarily involved derivative E3b-M35 lineages. - Luis.
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quote:M78 chromosomes are of African origin, there was A TWO STEPS MIGRATION, from Africa to the MidEast & the MidEast to Europe. - Cruciani, 2006.
quote:Charles writes: Ok
I'm sure it is ok, since it is the original and factual comment I made that set your pointless ranting nonresponsives off to begin with.
Then Cruciani repeated it, reducing you to frenzy of helpless rantings and ludicrous excuses, such as.....
quote: but..... Crucinai didn't say it was a two step migration of *AFRICANS* into Europe
lol. lol. lol.
He clearly denotes a two step migration From Africa, into Europe, thru the levantine,
with the levant being step 1
and europe being step 2.
This fact must be eating you alive, judging by the extreme nature of your disingenuous denials.
And yes he says from 'Africa' and not from Africans.
He also says to 'Europe' and not to Europ-eans.
Your attempts at petty dissembling to run away from the incontestible fact of African migration to Eurasia, and Afrian ancestry in Eurasians...are nothing but a joke.
quote:Originally posted by rasol: ]Incorrect, the delta cluster originates in East Africa 14kya~. Since underived E3b1 lineages are *not* found in Eurasia, this time period marks the earliest possible beginning of African migrations into Eurasia.
You're quite stupid, the first M78 lineages enetered the Near East in the late Paleolithic, just read the studies. The delta cluster was involved in the first dispersals of M78 out of Africa:
"On the basis of these data, we suggest that cluster was involved in a first dispersal or dispersals of E-M78 chromosomes from eastern Africa into northern Africa and the Near East.
Cruciani et al, 2004
Now please explain where I was wrong. Where did I state underivd E3b1 is found in the Near East?
quote:It does *not* denote the "last" of such migrations.
When and where did I say it denoted a last migration? Stop beating on strawmen.
Posts: 2595 | From: Vicksburg | Registered: Feb 2006
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And you're obviously completely demoralised in that you resort to such self degrading semantics such as this forum has not seen since Evil Euro was banned. In fact, that kind of remark typifies the last resort banalities of those looking for a way out of lost arguments.
quote:Charles writes: The delta cluster was involved in the first dispersals of M78 out of Africa
Yes I know, that's why: E3b1 delta is considered the precursor of [neolithic] E3b1 alpha. - Thought
It took you one year to come up with response to the devastating fact noted above, and when you did finally respond, you still managed to miss the point. rotfl!
So come back tomorrow and ask the same question again, and we can repost the answer for 10th time. Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote:Originally posted by rasol: This is why E3b1 delta is considered the precursor of E3b1 alpha. - Thought.The above is correct.
Where's the evidence for this in published data? Where's the evidence from published data that the delta cluster is considered as the precursor to the alpha cluster? You state this is correct but post no evidence for it.
quote:Charles response by asking a question which Thought just answered, only he doesn't understand what clusters are, and so doesn't understand the answer.
Non-sequitir and red herring, next....
quote:. Cruciani answerd this, Supercar answerd this, and I answerd this.
Cruciani didn't state that, point out where he did, or will you draw another unsupported theory in conclusion?
quote:You simply refuse to understand any fact that you do not like:
Clusters are not clades.
You cannot treat them as such.
They cannot be 'delineated' as deriving sequentially one from another./quote]
More non-sequitir and strawman beating
[quote]They simply tell us when lineages such as E3b1 expand into different population groups.
Thats why they're defined by unique STR alleles, oh wait, you totally ignore this and pretend its insignificant.
quote:E3b1 alpha is derived from E3b1 and has a MRCA of ~8,000 ky
quote:E3b1 delta is considered the precursor of E3b1 alpha
More unsupported garbage that isn't stated in published data yet you state it as if its an already proven fact.
Posts: 2595 | From: Vicksburg | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Thought: This is why E3b1 delta is considered the precursor of E3b1 alpha.
quote:Charles:Where's the evidence for this in published data?
It has been presented over and over again, but you don't understand what clusters and clades are, and moreover you don't want to understand. Because for you to to accept the answer provided over and again, is to end this argument, and admit defeat.
Not our fault, you won't put two and two together.
quote: Charles posted:
On the other forum it was mentioned that E3b1 alpha was derived from E3b1 delta. I've searched every available publication on E3b1 and none have ever made that statement, so where's the proof?
Thought posted:
You are absoluetly correct.
The Cruciani et al study does not explicitly state that alpha derived from delta.
It does state that delta spread from East Africa to Europe *after* ~14,000 years ago. It also states that alpha derived in Europe.
Hence it requires a commonsensical sort of extrapolation.
"The fourth cluster **delta **(cluster in fig. 2B) is present, albeit at low frequencies, in **all** of the regions analyzed (4.0% in eastern and northern Africa, 3.3% in the Near East, and 1.5% in Europe) and shows a notable microsatellite differentiation (fig. 2B). The two E-M78 chromosomes found in Pakistan, at the eastern borders of the area of dispersal of haplogroup E3b, also belong to **cluster delta**.
On the basis of these data, we suggest that cluster delta was involved in a **first dispersal** or dispersals of E-M78 chromosomes from eastern Africa into northern Africa and the Near East.
A later range expansion from the Near East or, possibly, from northern Africa would have introduced E-M78 cluster **delta** into Europe.
However, given the low frequencies of E-M78 delta, it seems to have contributed only marginally to the shaping of the **present** E-M78 frequency distribution in Africa and western Eurasia.
Indeed, later[!!!] (and previously undetected) demographic population expansions involving clusters alpha in Europe (TMRCA 7.8 ky; 95% CI 6.39.2 ky), beta in northwestern Africa (5.2 ky; 95% CI 3.27.5 ky), and gamma in eastern Africa (9.6 ky; 95% CI 7.212.9 ky) should be considered the main contributors to the relatively high frequency of haplogroup E-M78 in the surveyed area." - Cruciani et al. Thought posts:
Common sense can be of assistance as well.
E3b1 alpha is derived from E3b1 and has a MRCA of ~8,000 ky.
E3b1 is absent in Europe.
E3b1 beta is virtually absent in the Balkans.
E3b1 gamma is restricted to East Africa.
E3b1 delta predates E3b1 alpha AND is located in the Balkans.
This is why E3b1 delta is considered the precursor of E3b1 alpha.
quote:Charles could not *debate* Thought or Supercar on this point because he didn't understand what clusters were to begin with.
This is why he keeps emailing geneticists and asking them, while he stalls in debates by claiming that the difference between clusters and clades doesn't matter.
If it doesn't matter, why keep asking?
Why keep asking even after you been given answer?
It's not enough to quote sources, a parrot can do that much. A scholar is required to be able to think. If one cannot do this, then there is little anyone else can do to help. Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Thought: This is why E3b1 delta is considered the precursor of E3b1 alpha.
quote:Charles:Where's the evidence for this in published data?
It has been presented over and over again, but you don't understand what clusters and clades are, and moreover you don't want to understand. Because for you to to accept the answer provided over and again, is to end this argument, and admit defeat.
Not our fault, you won't put two and two together.
quote: Charles posted:
On the other forum it was mentioned that E3b1 alpha was derived from E3b1 delta. I've searched every available publication on E3b1 and none have ever made that statement, so where's the proof?
Thought posted:
You are absoluetly correct.
The Cruciani et al study does not explicitly state that alpha derived from delta.
It does state that delta spread from East Africa to Europe *after* ~14,000 years ago. It also states that alpha derived in Europe.
Hence it requires a commonsensical sort of extrapolation.
"The fourth cluster **delta **(cluster in fig. 2B) is present, albeit at low frequencies, in **all** of the regions analyzed (4.0% in eastern and northern Africa, 3.3% in the Near East, and 1.5% in Europe) and shows a notable microsatellite differentiation (fig. 2B). The two E-M78 chromosomes found in Pakistan, at the eastern borders of the area of dispersal of haplogroup E3b, also belong to **cluster delta**.
On the basis of these data, we suggest that cluster delta was involved in a **first dispersal** or dispersals of E-M78 chromosomes from eastern Africa into northern Africa and the Near East.
A later range expansion from the Near East or, possibly, from northern Africa would have introduced E-M78 cluster **delta** into Europe.
However, given the low frequencies of E-M78 delta, it seems to have contributed only marginally to the shaping of the **present** E-M78 frequency distribution in Africa and western Eurasia.
Indeed, later[!!!] (and previously undetected) demographic population expansions involving clusters alpha in Europe (TMRCA 7.8 ky; 95% CI 6.39.2 ky), beta in northwestern Africa (5.2 ky; 95% CI 3.27.5 ky), and gamma in eastern Africa (9.6 ky; 95% CI 7.212.9 ky) should be considered the main contributors to the relatively high frequency of haplogroup E-M78 in the surveyed area." - Cruciani et al. Thought posts:
Common sense can be of assistance as well.
E3b1 alpha is derived from E3b1 and has a MRCA of ~8,000 ky.
E3b1 is absent in Europe.
E3b1 beta is virtually absent in the Balkans.
E3b1 gamma is restricted to East Africa.
E3b1 delta predates E3b1 alpha AND is located in the Balkans.
This is why E3b1 delta is considered the precursor of E3b1 alpha.
quote:Charles could not *debate* Thought or Supercar on this point because he didn't understand what clusters were to begin with.
This is why he keeps emailing geneticists and asking them, while he stalls in debates by claiming that the difference between clusters and clades doesn't matter.
If it doesn't matter, why keep asking?
Why keep asking even after you been given answer?
It's not enough to quote sources, a parrot can do that much.
A scholar is required to be able to think.
Argument By Repetition (Argument Ad Nauseam). Repeating the same garbage over and over again doesn't make it true. Post proof that Cruciani stated that the alpha cluster is derived from the delta cluster. Quoting Thought as proof is just as stupid as EE quoting Dienekes, you don't quote layman.
Posts: 2595 | From: Vicksburg | Registered: Feb 2006
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Also repeating a question that has already been answered is repetition fallacy as well.
quote: Note, neither one of the possibilities state that M78 were introduced into Europe by any "African" Neolithic nor by Africans and Southwest Asians
^ That quote does not answer the question at issue, and hense is irrelevant to citations that do:: Egyptian M78 lineages are highly consistent with a northbound migration *through the Levantine corridor, reflected in M78 males as far north as Turkey.- Luis, et. al.,
You can't refute and answer with a non-answer Charles. Try again.
quote: Post proof that Cruciani stated that the alpha cluster is derived from the delta cluster
Why? that's not our position.
You still don't get it.
Our position is that clusters are not clades and so don't derive from one another in a linear fashion like clades.
also, our position is that you are unable to understand this, because...... ????
Well you have to answer that question. Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
obtuse - not perceptive, or sharp, and [often deliberate] lack of ability to understand.
Argument by obtuseness:
Another example of arugment by obtuseness is Charles protest that Cruciani denotes migrations to Europe thru the Levantine from "Africa", but not from......'Africans'.
This would be and obtuse protest, even if Cruciani had not destroyed all hope [for Charles entire argument actually], by specifying E3b1-M78 is AFRICAN.
This "should" satisfy even the slowest and most inattentive minded of folks.
But Charles chooses to forget/ignore whatever he needs to in order to argue obtusely.
Argument by obtuseness is as easy as it is ineffectual.
Easy because playing dumb is easier than 'playing smart'.
Ineffectual because it merely suggests the person arguing obtusely is either unserious or unbelievably slow.
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When i don't clearly understand something I ask the professionals for answers which is what I did so asking me the same question over and over again about a term that hasn't even been defined genetically
This is glaringly false; if there is no definition for a cluster, why then was the term used? Cruciani gave you the definition; you just failed to recognize it.
Both clades and clusters have clear definitions, that you are unable to define, differentiate, and know the role of each, in the investigation of human expansion. Because you don't know these concepts, you keep repeating nonsense that has been torn apart for a year now.
quote:Charles:
Your contention is that since the alpha cluster belongs to the E-M78 network[and since the M-78 clade is African in origin] everyone ´sharing ancestry in the M78 clade has African ancestry, which is false, no published data has ever stated that fallacious point
Yes, everyone who has this mutation, has common recent African ancestry with all others who carry this mutation. That is simply what the mutation denotes, "tropical African ancestry". There is no variant of this one time mutation; don't confuse microsatellite clusters with one time event SNPs. You end up in the kind of confusion as you, Charles, sports.
quote:Charles:
The cluster/clade strawman you keep bringing up is a red herring...
Wrong again, as usual. They are brought up time and again, because your understanding of them will instantly show you how silly these exchanges have dragged on, simply because of your illiteracy on the matter.
quote:Charles:
, your logic is that clusters mean nothing and clades means everything...
Another lie. What we are trying to get you to see is that clusters have their own meanings and role in a monophyly in reconstructing human expansions, and one time event SNPs have another. But since you cannot grasp this concept, you naturally unfoundedly assume that folks are saying what your lie above is stating.
quote:Charles:
ALL* humans are descended from an original African event Polymorphism[that still present in East Africa, Underhill et al 2001], does that make everyone on this damn planet African genetically?
Keep bringing up the same points that were addressed a year ago. I told you that this nonsense of yours is futile as a distractive antic; Yes all humanity ultimately have African ancestry, BUT not all have the MOST RECENT COMMON AFRICAN ANCESTOR. When will this penetrate your skull? This is why you need to know what single event SNPs denote; can't be overemphasized. Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
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ALL* humans are descended from an original African event Polymorphism[that still present in East Africa, Underhill et al 2001], does that make everyone on this damn planet African genetically?
Keep bringing up the same points that were addressed a year ago. I told you that this nonsense of yours is futile as a distractive antic; Yes all humanity ultimately have African ancestry, BUT not all have the MOST RECENT COMMON AFRICAN ANCESTOR. When will this penetrate your skull? This is why you need to know what single event SNPs denote; can't be overemphasized.
This reality manifests itself time and again, in observations like this one:
There is more genetic similarity between Europeans and sub-Saharan Africans and between Europeans and Melanesians, inhabitants of islands northeast of Australia, than there is between Africans and Melanesians. - Templeton
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When i don't clearly understand something I ask the professionals for answers which is what I did so asking me the same question over and over again about a term that hasn't even been defined genetically
This is glaringly false; if there is no definition for a cluster, why then was the term used? Cruciani gave you the definition; you just failed to recognize it.
Both clades and clusters have clear definitions, that you are unable to define, differentiate, and know the role of each, in the investigation of human expansion. Because you don't know these concepts, you keep repeating nonsense that has been torn apart for a year now.
quote:Charles:
Your contention is that since the alpha cluster belongs to the E-M78 network[and since the M-78 clade is African in origin] everyone ´sharing ancestry in the M78 clade has African ancestry, which is false, no published data has ever stated that fallacious point
Yes, everyone who has this mutation, has common recent African ancestry with all others who carry this mutation. That is simply what the mutation denotes, "tropical African ancestry". There is no variant of this one time mutation; don't confuse microsatellite clusters with one time event SNPs. You end up in the kind of confusion as you, Charles, sports.
quote:Charles:
The cluster/clade strawman you keep bringing up is a red herring...
Wrong again, as usual. They are brought up time and again, because your understanding of them will instantly show you how silly these exchanges have dragged on, simply because of your illiteracy on the matter.
quote:Charles:
, your logic is that clusters mean nothing and clades means everything...
Another lie. What we are trying to get you to see is that clusters have their own meanings and role in a monophyly in reconstructing human expansions, and one time event SNPs have another. But since you cannot grasp this concept, you naturally unfoundedly assume that folks are saying what your lie above is stating.
quote:Charles:
ALL* humans are descended from an original African event Polymorphism[that still present in East Africa, Underhill et al 2001], does that make everyone on this damn planet African genetically?
Keep bringing up the same points that were addressed a year ago. I told you that this nonsense of yours is futile as a distractive antic; Yes all humanity ultimately have African ancestry, BUT not all have the MOST RECENT COMMON AFRICAN ANCESTOR. When will this penetrate your skull? This is why you need to know what single event SNPs denote; can't be overemphasized.
Good response Supercar, the perceptive will pick up on the fact that clades by definition lead back to mrca and thus can denote a relative-relationship in the direct ancestry of every single person on earth, who ever lived.
tandem repeats cannot do this, for they are neither necessarily parent and child, nor sibling, nor cousin.
alpha microsats. associated with clade E3b1 can tell us something about the spread of African lineage in Eurasians going as far back as the neolithic, and thats it. It's not a clade, and you cannot delineate it as if it were.
Clusters are defined by the rare STR alleles that characterize them
...as has been pointed out to you countless times already. And yet, you hereby claim that there is no way to tell or define what a cluster is. This is "a" step towards learning about "clusters" and their role in human expansion.
quote:Charles: they're not fancy names for M78 for use of tracking migrations nor are they all them same.
...naturally not; otherwise it would be harder to track the direction of each and every migration that involves a clade and perhaps an estimate of the timeline of such expansions with a relatively high or adequate degree of precision, without such variation between clusters. Yet all are still tied to a single common recent ancestor, the M78 mutation.
quote:Charles:
The alpha cluster doesn't denote a migration from Africa to Europe but it does denote a migration from the Near east to Europe as already stated ad-naseum.
This assertion is actually quite simplistic and wrong. I'll demonstrate again why via Cruciani:
We used the term cluster simply to indicate a group of chromosomes that share similar microsatellite haplotypes. In our mind a cluster is a MONOPHYLETIC unit, but this CANNOT BE PROVED based on the microsatellites ALONE…
We believe that cluster alfa chromosomes come from the Near East, but, in turn, M78 chromosomes are of AFRICAN ORIGIN, so you can imagine a TWO STEPS MIGRATION:
from Africa to the Middle east and from the Middle east to the Europe. - Cruciani
It denotes a two steps migration from Africa to the "Middle east", and from the "Middle east" to Europe. You cannot break this denotation into two pieces and leave the other piece of information out [in any case, ANY prehistoric African migrations to the Balkans through the Nile Valley corridor would have to be a two steps, meaning having to go through the "Near East" first ]. Why again? Because it is tantamount to treating the derivative with the alpha microsatellite cluster as a standalone entity. The M78 denotes African ancestry, as Cruciani states, and hence a microsatellite "cluster" on M78 bearing chromosomes cannot be treated as separate entity from the M78 mutation; the alpha cluster bearing chromosomes have the M78 SNP. The parent-offspring relationship is not broken in anyway.
quote:Charles:
"the clinal frequency distribution of E-M78 within Europe testifies to important dispersal(s), most likely Neolithic or post-Neolithic. These took place from the Balkans, where the highest frequencies are observed, in all directions, as far as Iberia to the west and, most likely, also to Turkey to the southeast. Thus, it appears that, in Europe, the overall frequency pattern of the haplogroup E-M78, the most frequent E3b haplogroup in this region, is mostly contributed by a new molecular type that distinguishes it from the aboriginal E3b chromosomes from the Near East. These data are hard to reconcile with the hypothesis of a uniform spread of a single Near Eastern gene pool into southeastern Europe. On the other hand, they might be consistent with either a small-scale leapfrog migration from Anatolia into southeastern Europe at the beginning of the Neolithic or with an expansion of indigenous people in southeastern Europe in response to the arrival of the Neolithic cultural package. At the present level of phylogenetic resolution, it is difficult to distinguish between these possibilities."
Note, neither one of the possibilities state that M78 were introduced into Europe by any "African" Neolithic nor by Africans and Southwest Asians.
What marks the beginning of the "Neolithic" and who brought its spawned economy into Europe, is the question you keep dodging.
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That quote does not answer the question at issue, and hense is irrelevant to citations that do::
I did provide an answer, you're just too stubborn to see it.
quote:Egyptian M78 lineages are highly consistent with a northbound migration *through the Levantine corridor, reflected in M78 males as far north as Turkey.[/i]- Luis, et. al.,
You can't refute and answer with a non-answer Charles. Try again.
Dummy that question was already answered, there are *NO* distinctive Egyptian M78 lineages, Luis is simply indicating the direction the M78 lineages took, through Egypt into the Levant. still don't get it, try again.
quote: Why? that's not our position.
Yes it is, you quoted Thought on it as fact and made the fallacious statement that I ran from it, don't lie.
quote:Our position is that clusters are not clades and so don't derive from one another in a linear fashion like clades.
Yet you quoted Thought as stating that the delta cluster is the precursor of the alpha and you quoted Thought as stating a fact which even he admits Cruciani didn't state.
Posts: 2595 | From: Vicksburg | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by rasol: obtuse - not perceptive, or sharp, and [often deliberate] lack of ability to understand.
Argument by obtuseness:
Another example of arugment by obtuseness is Charles protest that Cruciani denotes migrations to Europe thru the Levantine from "Africa", but not from......'Africans'.
This would be and obtuse protest, even if Cruciani had not destroyed all hope [for Charles entire argument actually], by specifying E3b1-M78 is AFRICAN.
This "should" satisfy even the slowest and most inattentive minded of folks.
But Charles chooses to forget/ignore whatever he needs to in order to argue obtusely.
Argument by obtuseness is as easy as it is ineffectual.
Easy because playing dumb is easier than 'playing smart'.
Ineffectual because it merely suggests the person arguing obtusely is either unserious or unbelievably slow.
Vicious personal attack, post ignored
Posts: 2595 | From: Vicksburg | Registered: Feb 2006
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Your contention is that since the alpha cluster belongs to the E-M78 network[and since the M-78 clade is African in origin] everyone ´sharing ancestry in the M78 clade has African ancestry, which is false, no published data has ever stated that fallacious point
Yes, everyone who has this mutation, has common recent African ancestry with all others who carry this mutation. That is simply what the mutation denotes, "tropical African ancestry". There is no variant of this one time mutation; don't confuse microsatellite clusters with one time event SNPs. You end up in the kind of confusion as you, Charles, sports.[/quote]
Sure, thats why M78 alpha isn't labelled as African ancestry in published data nor is it called an "African Neolithic" contribution to Europe, your other fallacious tale.
quote:]Wrong again, as usual. They are brought up time and again, because your understanding of them will instantly show you how silly these exchanges have dragged on, simply because of your illiteracy on the matter.
Yes it is s strawman and you know it, in fact its s red herring also, it has nothing to do with the fact that M78-alpha is not an African lineage.
quote:Another lie. What we are trying to get you to see is that clusters have their own meanings and role in a monophyly in reconstructing human expansions, and one time event SNPs have another. But since you cannot grasp this concept, you naturally unfoundedly assume that folks are saying what your lie above is stating.
Rubbish, you ignore the data which state the STR microstaellite alleles which define each cluster and the populations that harbor these rare STRs and see only what you want to see, which is called cherry picking
Posts: 2595 | From: Vicksburg | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote: That quote does not answer the question at issue, and hense is irrelevant to citations that do: Egyptian M78 lineages are highly consistent with a northbound migration *through the Levantine corridor, reflected in M78 males as far north as Turkey.- Luis, et. al.,
quote:Charles: I did provide and answer.
You didn't and you can't.
You did try to run away from luis, et. al answer though via obtuseness.
But, it didn't work, see the following....
quote:Charles writes: there are *NO* distinctive Egyptian M78 lineages
E3b1 M78 IS distinctive to East Africa, where it originates.
Egypt is *in* East Africa.
The population group in the study reference.. *IS* Egyptian. Get a clue!
This is why simply reading studies never helps you Charles.
You recite from studies much like a parrot - without actual comprehension.
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quote:Originally posted by *Topdog*: ...Rubbish, you ignore the data which state the STR microstaellite alleles which define each cluster and the populations that harbor these rare STRs and see only what you want to see, which is called cherry picking
This entire rambling above marks tremendous stupidity, that doesn't deserve going over circular exchanges on. How about actually addressing what was requested of you?...
Btw, since you keep nagging like an infant whose pacifier has been taken away from its mouth, by claiming that I'm lazy, how about you being not the so lazy one answer these ridiculously basic questions:
a)What is a clade?
b)What is a cluster?
c)What is the difference between a clade and a cluster?
d)what bearing does the alpha microsatellite cluster have on the fact that the cluster appears on M78 bearing chromosomes?
d)How do you explain this:
There is more genetic similarity between Europeans and sub-Saharan Africans and between Europeans and Melanesians, inhabitants of islands northeast of Australia, than there is between Africans and Melanesians. - Templeton
More to come, but this will do for now, for an utterly slow individual like yourself.
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This is why simply reading studies never helps you Charles.
You recite from studies much like a parrot - without actual comprehension.
You can say that again. One would think that the million times that basic facts have been told to him, both from us and his latest correspondence, would have sunk in. Very unsually unperceptive character we are dealing with here.
Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
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posted
^ I actually like Charles, but his obtuseness is *astounding*.
quote:rasol writes: Our position is that clusters are not clades and so don't derive from one another in a linear fashion like clades.
quote:charles writes: Yet you quoted Thought as stating that the delta cluster is the precursor of the alpha
It's not a quote of Thought, it's a fact that E3b1 with delta clusters precede E3b1 alpha clusters in Eurasia.
But precursor does not have the same meaning as derive.
Precede simply establishes that one comes before the other.
This term is used instead of 'derived' for a reason, Charles.
Clusters do not necessarily derive linearly from each other, like clades, ie -> E3, E3b, E3b1, Charles.
That's exactly what makes them clusters -> *NOT* clades.
This is what Cruciani tried to tell you - you can't make those kinds of claims based on clusters alone.
But since you won't listen to him, and you won't listen to Luis, then why should we expect you to listen to us?
You know, I'm only explaining this for the benefit of others who actually are educable.
You've completely convinced me that you are either unable or unwilling to get it.
But that's your loss. You want to be the mere tool we use to teach those able and willing to learn? So be it.
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was involved in a first dispersal or dispersals of E-M78 chromosomes from eastern Africa into northern Africa and the Near East.
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