posted
I have known Dr. Winters for a number of years. Long enough to have observed the strength of his scholarship and as well as his weaknesses. Let me tell you something Winters haters, especially Dejuhuti, you need to just shut the hell up! I have observed the high level of research and scholarship on this board and no one is on the level of Dr. Clyde A. Winters. Let me tell you something that the man himself may be too modest to tell you: Dr. Winters can speak and read 7 or 8 different languages. He can read about as many ancient languages because he is gifted like that and was respectful enough to look for the root languages in ancient African. It was Dr. Winters who started the acclaimed Journal of African Civilizations published by Ivan Van Sertima and he taught Runoko Rashidi and many others how to look at World African Culture. Scholars from all over the world write to this man with pleas of help in deciphering ancient texts, yet mainstream academics reject his work for the same reason they refuse to acknowledge that Egyptians and Nubians were no different. Dr. Winters was invited by top scholars in Southern India to write their beginning history in their Dravidian Encyclopedia, the equivalent of our Brittanica! When you haters get this type of honor and repect, to write for a whole nation of people, then you can be smarmy and smart-assed. Until then you all need to just shut up with what goes way beyond mere disagreement into disrepect. I see too much negative jaw jacking about a man of Dr. Winters stature on this forum when we all should thank God for his participation. Oh, and Dejuti, in order to keep this forum civil I will simpy say this to you:
Those who appreciate Dr. Winters please speak up and let him know it.
Posts: 65 | From: Chicago | Registered: Apr 2006
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quote:Those who appreciate Dr. Winters please speak up and let him know it.
I appreciate him for his interest in African history and dedication to it.
I also appreciate his demeanor - most people on the internet can't debate without it collapsing into and insult contest but Dr. Winters stays above that.
Because I respect him - I won't condescend to him, some of his theories are merely far fetched, but others are downright pseudo-scientific and border on being transparently/knowingly false.
I just call it like I see it, with no malice.
So that's my 'speak up'.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
Sorry Bro, but I don't "hate" or have any kind of animosity towards Winters whatsoever.
In fact I find the guy and his studies to be simply hilarious and good entertainment! Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
I for one respect Dr. Winters and hope he continues to post on this forum. I just think that him calling every black person African is out of place and kind of wrong. I don't know for sure but I think that Dravidians belong to india. Aside from this he is a class debater who I think deserves the utmost respect.
Peace
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
At first I wasn't going to reply because on at least two occasion I've expressed my indebtedness to Dr. Winters in my own Africana development. However, if he's feeling bad I tell "Ahmad" to "cheer up Brian." On this forum everybody gets beat with the beration stick. It's just a rule here that we're all essentially equals regardless of credentials
quote:Originally posted by BroG: Those who appreciate Dr. Winters please speak up and let him know it.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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University of California - Riverside Archeology in America
The Decipherment of the Fuente Magna Bowl
Abstract:
Using the phonetic values of the Vai script, Dr. Winters has been able to decipher the Indus Valley and Linear A writing. The Sumerian language is closely related to the Dravidian and Mande languages, and the Proto-Sumerian , Libyco-Berber and Vai scripts are similar. Thus, it is possible to read the script on the Fuente Magna by using the phonetic values of the Vai script. Once Winters had transliterated the Fuente Magna signs, he was able to translate the inscription using the Sumerian language.
posted
Thanks for posting the South American translations of Dr. Winters Ms. Wysinger. This is an example of what I was saying. South American scholars asked him to do that. And AlTakruri, the respect Dr. Winters or anyone else deserves should not be based on credentials. It should be based on merit. No one on this forum that I have seen has the world wide contributions or body of work that Dr. Winters has. He is not above criticism, but based on merit no one on this forum is his equal. Period. Respect that dude.
Posts: 65 | From: Chicago | Registered: Apr 2006
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posted
I work at the University of California. I'm aware of Dr. Winters work.
I've often wondered why they came down on him in this forum. I do respect him BroG. I want to be put on record.
Posts: 1549 | From: California, USA | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
I have a great deal of respect for Dr. Winters.
I rather view his detractors and those who resort to humor to deride proponents of Negro accomplishments as people who are hiding (or not hiding) a post-colonial mentality and find it horrifying that their assumptions of white cultural superiority (may) find root in borrowings from cultures and civilizations that pre-dated their contact with them after arriving at various places from the Russian Steppes.
I expect either contemptuous rejection by whites of my claim; or more humorous deriding hiding insecurities and anxieties about their self-worth masked in ridicule hiding fear.
For all talk of white superiority, as whites drove into Europe from the Steppes near 1800 BC up until the time of Attila and afterwards, there were already highly developed civilizations and cultures of Negroes there. Negroes who comprised a single people variously called the Iberians (before their Europeanization) Celt, Druid, Halstaat, La Tene cultures with their high achievements in, first bronze working and then iron, and always in architecture. Their arts were unexcelled and their conventions continued in European art up to today.
Hegel speaks of the Negro as the only people without civilization; but when the Germanic people entered Germany or the Gauls entered France, there were Negroes there with the most sophisticated civilizations. So, all this talk of white superiority and Negro cultural impoverishment I think only masks insecurities about how young and new and unoriginal European culture is; and Negro detractors try to drown out their fears by their loud and vociferous condemnations and ridicule. This is a sign not of intellectual superiority but immaturity.
Now, you might take my comments as anger-driven. And you'd be wrong. I am simply being candid. I am calling the shots as I see them. And I think this is my last post in this thread as I feel it could go on forever and I've said all I intend to on this matter. You can have the last word if you disagree with what I have said. And most whites at this site will.
Take care,
Marc Washington
.
-------------------- The nature of homelife is the fate of the nation. Posts: 2334 | Registered: May 2006
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quote:Originally posted by KING: I for one respect Dr. Winters and hope he continues to post on this forum. I just think that him calling every black person African is out of place and kind of wrong. I don't know for sure but I think that Dravidians belong to india. Aside from this he is a class debater who I think deserves the utmost respect.
Peace
I've never seen him make references to all black people being African. This sounds like a generalization.
He also never said that Dravidians are not Indian. He said that Dravidians have a Black African heritage because their languages are linquistically linked to each other.
I actually really respect the guy, but I do think that some people on this board are very disrespectful to him because they have a general dislike of Afrocentricity, and like many, probably still hold onto perceptions of an African American inferiority complex created by Richard Herrnstein, Charles Murray, and Mary Leftkowitz in the early 90's.
I personally don't see anything wrong with Afrocentricity. Actually, during my own college years(early to mid 90's)at a predominately white university, I knew black, white and Indian professors and acquaintances who were Afrocentrics, and they were by far among the most popular professors on campus. At that time, Afrocentricity was not viewed as threatening and unscholarly like some see it now because unlike early Eurocentric scholarship, Afrocentricity is not rooted in the belief of an entire race of people being inferior.
I did learn from other Afro-centered professors that there were some Afrocentric researchers out there who made false claims(ie Cleopatra being black) but never assumed that all Afrocentrics practiced this kind of scholarship, and to this day, I believe many of them still hold posts at Ivy League colleges in the US.
Posts: 72 | Registered: Apr 2006
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quote:Negroes who comprised a single people variously called the Iberians (before their Europeanization) Celt, Druid, Halstaat, La Tene cultures with their high achievements in, first bronze working and then iron, and always in architecture. Their arts were unexcelled and their conventions continued in European art up to today.
Words like "Negro" have a subjective meaning, but I do not think anyone would consider those people "Negroid". If anything, most of them would be considered "Nordic".
posted
Unfortuantely some of you guys just don't realize that the reason why we "come down hard" on Winters is that much of his work is pseudo-scholarship and no different from Eurocentrics of the past.
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
Call me a cheerleader if you will, but I am speaking out because many of you folk don't have the proper perspective on Dr. Clyde A. Winters. It is often the nature of genius to go off on wild tangents and even engage in eccentric behaviors and theories. Albert Einstien was wildly lampooned for both his Theory of Relativity and his Unified Field Theory(Meaning of Everything Theory) Some folk said he was just crazy! This still did not keep the world from progressing due the the overall contributions of his work. Stop dismissing Dr. Winters due to some of his more "wild" theories and step back to observe the man's overall contributions. After all, the Theory of Relativity turned out to be true. I have studied the work of Dr. Winters for 16 years now, and some of what was once considered "crazy" by him has been vindicated. Mostly by non-Europeans without racist agendas.
Posts: 65 | From: Chicago | Registered: Apr 2006
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posted
You call me dude, I call you cheerleader. Get offa me. You obviously haven't read what I've had to say about Dr. Winters himself (as opposed to some of his theories). If you'd read a thing I've said about what I owe him you wouldn't be centering disrespect shown him on me.
Dr. Winters is perfectly capable of addressing me personally if he himself feels I've dissed him. You don't have a thing to do with it, so stay out of it and if there's a problem he feels he has with me then he and I will work it out.
posted
I am not focusing on you alTakruri. I read your posts and think you are one of the few who showed some kind of respect for the man. I take issue with being called "cheerleader" for speaking out for a man who is clearly not being given his due respect. In fact I think your point of view is similar to my own in a way. I am Afrocentric. And it is our tradition to praise elders for doing honorable work and tell others about it. That is all I am doing. If I ruffled any feathers while doing so I apologize. But I take nothing back.
Posts: 65 | From: Chicago | Registered: Apr 2006
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posted
I haven't seen anyone being disrespectfull (besides salladin or whatever his name was) towards Dr Winters on this forum. Alot of people might not agree with his theories from to time, but that doesn't mean people are being disrespectful, infact some posters have stated numerous of times how much they appreciate his presence on this board.
Posts: 1420 | Registered: May 2005
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Clyde Winters is cool in my opinion, eventhough I have to admit that alTukruri went the 12 rounds with him on the Berber debate and I honestly alTukruri won folks. Though that doesn't take away from his honorable work and his presence here is a definite compliment in my opinion. Hopefully Clyde Winters will keep posting because I have learned alot from the information that he shares with us here.
quote:Clyde Winters is cool in my opinion, eventhough I have to admit that alTukruri went the 12 rounds with him on the Berber debate and I honestly alTukruri won folks.
That's why it's best to focus on the search for truth and not the 'winner/loser' aspect of debates.
When it's for a good cause - everyone wins. [cheers,applause, tears of joy] Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
The problem I see with some of Mr Winters writings is that he seems to connect cultures without showing that his work hs been reputably peer reviewed. I really haven't seen anyone else reference his linguistic works, which would be groundbreaking to say the least, except people who have no experience to verify it. When Mr Winters makes points on this board that seem plausible, I support him, but when he junps out there with something that doesn't and then doesn't show any research to back it up except his own well it gets kind of iffy. I don't think that just because people challenge him and don't follow him blindly they are disrespecting him.
Posts: 167 | From: usa | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
Great scientist never follow blindy and always use the scientific method of thinking and research not only to put claims to the test, but also to make objective conclusions!
I must say even thought I have little time to type and read this board I do enjoy it when I do. There are some GREAT minds here and that includes Dr Winters! RESPECT!
quote:Originally posted by kifaru: The problem I see with some of Mr Winters writings is that he seems to connect cultures without showing that his work hs been reputably peer reviewed. I really haven't seen anyone else reference his linguistic works, which would be groundbreaking to say the least, except people who have no experience to verify it. When Mr Winters makes points on this board that seem plausible, I support him, but when he junps out there with something that doesn't and then doesn't show any research to back it up except his own well it gets kind of iffy. I don't think that just because people challenge him and don't follow him blindly they are disrespecting him.
Posts: 318 | From: PA. USA | Registered: Jan 2005
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posted
I don't have any problem with Winters myself...I actually find the Olmec-African connection intriging in the sense that you can't deny that they used the Mande script...a destinctly West African thing. I know that it was very much possible for the Ancients to cross the Atlantic. The Vikings did it, and maybe other cultures too. The only reason I'm still skeptical is because there has been no trace of ships or evidence of a sea-faring nation in West Africa. I know a port used on the modern coast of Morocco going out into the Atlantic was used by the Phoenocians. I think to make the claim irrefutable we need something more than the language sadly.
It was even noted in Black Spark, White Fire when Poe mentioned that "in 1974, the Polish craniologist Andrzej Wiercinski revealed that no fewer than 13.5% of the skeletons found from the Olmec cemetary of Tlatilco were Negroid."
Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by King_Scorpion: I actually find the Olmec-African connection intriging in the sense that you can't deny that they used the Mande script...and destinctly West African thing.
See that's the thing I'm talking about. To my knowledge there has yet to be any DNA or verifiable linguistic evidence of this. No Mande trade goods have been found. Negroid features are not unique to "negroes". When scientists or anybody talks about theories like they are facts it leads to entrenched ideological positions and hinders the advancement of the science.
Posts: 167 | From: usa | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by King_Scorpion: I actually find the Olmec-African connection intriging in the sense that you can't deny that they used the Mande script...and destinctly West African thing.
See that's the thing I'm talking about. To my knowledge there has yet to be any DNA or verifiable linguistic evidence of this. No Mande trade goods have been found. Negroid features are not unique to "negroes". When scientists or anybody talks about theories like they are facts it leads to entrenched ideological positions and hinders the advancement of the science.
When the craniologist said 13.5% of the skeletons were Negroid...I assume he meant all the other skeletons were like the indegenous indians....and like I said, I'm still skeptical of this.
Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
There are Mande trade goods in the Americas but they date from the time of Mansa Bubakari II (14th cent. CE) not to the Olmec era (11th cent. BCE). That's a more than 2000 year difference between those two epochs.
The best known of the goods was guanin. Much new work and synthesis of existing literature is needed on the topic of West African/Middle American trade.
Couldn't agree more with what you say about taking testable theory as attested fact being a boon to idealogues but a hindrance to "science."
quote:Originally posted by kifaru: See that's the thing I'm talking about. To my knowledge there has yet to be any DNA or verifiable linguistic evidence of this. No Mande trade goods have been found. Negroid features are not unique to "negroes". When scientists or anybody talks about theories like they are facts it leads to entrenched ideological positions and hinders the advancement of the science.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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