posted
For those on this message board who advocate a massacre of the original Egyptians by Arab invaders I ask for complete proof. Show me documented evidence that the following took place. Two or three sentences with nothing but personal opinion will not sufface either.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
^^ Of course they don't have such evidence, because all evidence from historical records to genetics of modern day populations show no such thing.
Then again, we don't need genetics to prove that Olmecs and Dravidans were not African and neither were the Celts. Posts: 26267 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by ausar: For those on this message board who advocate a massacre of the original Egyptians by Arab invaders I ask for complete proof. Show me documented evidence that the following took place. Two or three sentences with nothing but personal opinion will not sufface either.
Ausar,I stopped talking to these idiots who talk about things which they have no clue..except for making accussations and fabricating history to fit their version of history.
Posts: 554 | From: Somaliland | Registered: Sep 2005
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The wars between the East-Roman Empire and The Persian Empire in the 6th and 7th centuries weakened both empires. The Muslim Arabs attacked both empires in the 7th century. After their conquest of the East-Roman provinces of Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, and Israel, they invaded Egypt in December 641 A.D. Egypt was one of the precious crown jewels of the East-Roman Empire. It was the breadbasket of Rome first then Constantinople. It was a fertile land that produced and exported wheat, corn, wine, oil, textiles, glass, cosmetics, and medicinal and chemical products of the time. The population Copts is estimated to be about 9 millions at the time the Arabs conquest.
The destruction of the Library of Alexandria: Scholars differed in views on how the ancient library of Alexandria was destroyed. However, recent research by Luciano Canfora concluded that the Arab general Amer ibin Alass at the orders of the Arab Caliph Omar ibin Alkhatab did the destruction of the library. The story of the Arabs destruction of the library indicates that it took them six months to burn the books in about one thousand public bathes in Alexandria.
Arab and Turkic Dynasties, 640-1798 A.D.: Several Muslim Arab and Turkic dynasties ruled Egypt from 640 A.D. to 1798 A.D. The French under Napoleon Bonaparte defeated the Ottomans and the Mumelukes rulers of Egypt in 1798 A.D. The Arab dynasties included the Umayyad (660-751 A.D.) and the Abbasids ( 751-880 A.D.) The Turkic dynasties include the Tolonides ( 880-904 A.D.) and the Akhsids ( 904-913 A.D.). They were followed by the Fatimites (913-1171 A.D.), a Shiite Arab dynasty. They were followed by Turkic, Ayubides (1171-1250 A.D.), the Mamelukes (1250-1517 A.D.) and the Ottomans (1517-1798 A.D.). After the Arabs conquest 641 A.D., the start of their rule was relatively mild. The Arab rulers primary interest was in exacting the maximum financial gain out of the rich land of Egypt. John of Nikiu in his chronicles indicates that Amer ibin Alass, after the conquest of Egypt, " increased the taxes to the extent of 22 batr of gold till all the people hid themselves owing to the greatness of the tribulation, and could not find the wherewithal to pay." The Ommyiads followed by the other dynasties instituted heavy taxes including poll tax or Algyzya, tribute and different exactions. At times the Arab rulers found it convenient to throw prominent Copts, e.g. a Bishop or Pope, in jail and request ransom to release them. The Umayyad Caliph Suliman ibin abed Almalek reflected this policy, in writing his appointed ruler of Egypt " to milk the camel until it gives no more milk, and until it milks blood". Though some of the Arab rulers were moderate, most were oppressive, cruel and committed a lot of atrocities against the Coptic population. The ultimate policy of the Muslim Arab rulers changed gradually from maximum financial gain to Isalmization either through incentives of reduced taxation, or by outright violence and force. Arab and Turkic rulers from different dynasties continued to levy heavy taxation to impoverish the Copts, instituted policies to eradicate the Coptic culture, language, leadership, and initiated violence and pogroms against the Coptic population.
Assault on Coptic Language, Culture, and Monuments: The assault on culture that was initiated by the destruction of the Alexandria library continued by the Umayyads who decreed the use the Arabic language instead of Coptic in the governance of Egypt. It took centuries for Arabic to replace Coptic as the spoken language of the land. The Coptic language continued in general use until the 13th century. Unlike the Greek or Roman rulers who maintained and rebuilt some of the ancient Egyptian temples, several Islamic rulers destroyed and pillaged the ancient Egyptian temples and Churches. The marble and porphyry pillars obtained by the destruction of many ancient temples and churches were used to build palaces, mosques, and at times just left a trail of destruction. Sultan El Aziz attempted to destroy the great pyramids of Giza circa 1193 A.D. He gathered a large labor force that attempted to destroy the pyramids for eight months. At the end of which, they succeeded in only destroying a part of the casing of the pyramid and made a small breach in one side. Fortunately the great effort needed convinced El Aziz to abandon the destruction of the pyramids.
Resistance for Oppression: The Arab's oppression led the Copts to several rebellions, but these rebellions failed to break the yoke of oppression or achieve independence. The Copts in the eastern Delta fought against the Ommayyds oppression in 725 A.D. A large-scale Coptic revolt against the Abbasids took place circa 815 A.D. El Maamoun, the Abbasid Caliph, had to bring in a large army with elephants to conquer the Copts revolution of 815 A.D. Even as late as 1176 A.D. the Copts of the city of Koptos revolted against the oppression of the Turkic rulers. The policy of heavy taxation, pillage, and violence was also accompanied by forced migration of Copts to other parts of the Islamic Empire, and settlement of Muslim Arabs into Egypt. As a result, many of the Copts were forced into Islam to escape the continued oppression and heavy taxation. The forced Isalmization policy was followed by most of the Arab rulers, and later on also by most of the Mamluks and Turkic rulers. Gradually, the population of Muslims increased and the Copts decreased. The population of the Copts decreased from 9 million at the time of the Arabs conquest 641 A. D. approximately 700,000 at the early 1900's.
Flourishing and Tribulations: Though persecution of the Copts by the Arabs, Mamluks and Turks was the norm rather than the exception, most of these rulers needed the knowledge of the Copts to govern the country and collect taxes. The history of the Islamic era shows a vicious cycle in which the Muslim rulers hire Copts because of their knowledge, skill and honesty to administer the affairs of the government of Egypt. Accordingly, the Copts do well and prosper, and ultimately the Muslim rulers change their minds for different reasons and expel the Copts from government jobs, confiscate their property, put them in jail, and a times put them to death. As the affairs of the government become erratic without the Copts knowledge, the rulers return back to hire the Copts again and so on. Under the rule of the Fatimite dynasty, one of the rulers was in fact insane. El Hakem hired several Copts in his employment. El Hakem however, decided to either to force his Coptic employees into Islam or kill them. Two prominent Copts Fahed iben Ibrahim, and Yuhana iben Nagah, were among El Hakem's employees, who accepted death rather than converting to Islam 1004 A.D. During the reign of moderate rulers and peaceful times, many Copts managed to excel in literature and the arts. Among the famous writers during the Ayubide dynasty, were the Iben Al Asaal brothers. Though the rule of the Mameluks produced many beautiful monuments, they were bloodthirsty and extremely oppressive for the Egyptians both Muslims and Copts. It is not unusual to read about pogroms launched against the Copts during the Mamluks time. A supposedly devout unknown Fakir, who would instigate a Muslim mob after the Friday Muslim prayers to attack the Copts, their homes and businesses, usually started the pogroms. However, the Mameluks also needed the services of the Copts to run the affairs of the government. Ibrahim Algawhery was the Chief Clerk of the Mameluks Abuel dahab and Ibrahim Bey 1795 A.D. Effectively he was the prime minister of Egypt and he was so influential to the extent that the Muslim historian Algaberti wrote about him and his achievements. Later on in the early 20th century another prominent Copt Botrous Galli became the prime Minister of Egypt under the rule of the British rule.
Are the Aita Africans Djehuti? Or are they Asian?
quote:Originally posted by ausar: For those on this message board who advocate a massacre of the original Egyptians by Arab invaders I ask for complete proof. Show me documented evidence that the following took place. Two or three sentences with nothing but personal opinion will not sufface either.
Posts: 104 | From: santa barbara, california usa | Registered: Mar 2005
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The destruction of the Library of Alexandria: Scholars differed in views on how the ancient library of Alexandria was destroyed. However, recent research by Luciano Canfora concluded that the Arab general Amer ibin Alass at the orders of the Arab Caliph Omar ibin Alkhatab did the destruction of the library. The story of the Arabs destruction of the library indicates that it took them six months to burn the books in about one thousand public bathes in Alexandria...
Dr. Salah Zaimeche is one such scholar, who apparently doesn't buy the Arab destruction of the Alexanderia library, and burning books contained therein. He even has an interesting question that you might want to adress:
Dr. Salah Zaimeche BA, MA, PhD;
Research Assistant, UMIST, Manchester, UK and Researcher at FSTC
If Duhem is to be followed, the Muslims are responsible for one thing, and for its total opposite, both at once. Indeed, according to him, the Muslims were fanatic, rampaging hordes, burners of Greek science, and also pale imitators, copiers of the Greeks. They cannot be both, though. How can you copy a book that you have burnt; or convey a science that you have destroyed on first contact? Incidently, both these conflicting opinions can be found not just with Duhem, but also with his crowd of followers, who pursue the same aberrations of history. More recent amongst these is another Frenchman, J.P. Verdet, who in a History of astronomy, manages to jump from Ptolemy to Copernicus, skipping nearly 1500 years, as if in his whole lifetime, and a scholar with access to tens of libraries, he never came across one single work dealing with Muslim astronomy.
Eurocentrism can't make its mind up when forging history; the Arabs either burned the library, and hence, blatantly runs counter to the Eurocentric idea that Arabs simply "preserved" Greek knowledge OR the Arabs did NOT burn the books, and perserved the so-called "Greek" knowledge. Which is it? You can't preserve something that you have already burnt.
Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
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during the time the arabs conqured egypt,the copts were not 9 million.egypt had only a population of only 3 million at that time and there were other groups that live in egypt too not just the copts.
Posts: 2688 | Registered: Jul 2004
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^ Kenndo makes a good point that too many people don't understand or refuse to undersand about the differences between ancient Km.t and modern Egypt.
During the old kingdom km.t was one of the most heavily populated regions of the world with serveral million people - and enormous number by the standards of the time, and most of whom lived in Upper Egypt.
However after long era's of foreign domination Kmt's population, like it's civilisation actually began to decline, until by Roman times there were just a few million.
Today there are 80 million people in Egypt and almost all of that population expansion has occured within the last 200 years.
There is no way to know, and no logical way of ASSUMING the demographic relationship between today's 80 million Egyptians, and the population of dynastic Km.t.
We do know that most of the population in Egypt today lives in lower Egypt - not in Upper Egypt.
There can be little doubt but that the most direct descendants of the Km.t are the modern day UpperEgyptians and Nubians who physically resemble the kemetic iconography.
Nor can there be much doubt but that millions of Egyptians, espcially living in lower Egypt are *not* descendant of the km.t but rather of the variious aam-u Asiatics, whom they, in turn, physically resemble.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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MK: Middle Kingdom NK: New Kingdom LP: Late Period It has been estimated that at the beginning of the pharaonic period the population count was about one million, and that at time of the Roman conquest about 5 million people lived in Egypt, give or take a million or so [2]. The sizes of the dips during the Intermediate Periods are arbitrary.
Numbers and composition The population count of Egypt under the first dynasties was possibly between 1 and 2 million inhabitants [2], rising slowly until the end of the Old Kingdom when a century of low Nile floods and the decay of the central power with its role of hoarding and redistributing grain surpluses caused famines which killed many of the very young and the old [13]. There are no records of similarly long periods of what looks like population decline after the restoration of order which marked the beginning of the Middle Kingdom.
Over the centuries there was a steady influx of foreigners, often driven by drought or overpopulation in their homelands: Nubians entered Egypt during the the First Intermediate Period. Canaanites, and among them probably Israelites, sojourned by the Nile many times during the second millennium BCE. They were referred to as Asiatics by the Egyptians. Enslaved people were displaced during the expansionary phase of the empire in Asia and Africa (Middle and New Kingdom)
The Hyksos, a Middle Eastern people, conquered Lower Egypt during the Second Intermediate Period. The Sea Peoples tried to do so in the 12th century. Libyans settled in the eastern Delta.
Jews, led by Jeremiah, found a safe haven in Egypt after the Assyrian conquest of Judah.
They can have added but relatively little to the population size: the Hyksos were mostly expelled at the end of the Second Intermediate Period and the Sea Peoples, apart from those who were enslaved or became mercenaries, were repulsed [7]. More peaceful was the presence of Phoenician traders in Lower Egypt probably since earliest times. Before the advent of the Greeks in Egypt, Phoenician ships carried much of Egyptian overseas trade and were never completely replaced by their European rivals. The Late Dynastic Period saw Libyans and Kushites conquer and settle and Ionians and Carians found colonies. Assyrians and Persians were mostly content with controlling Egypt from afar, Macedonians and Greeks on the other hand founded new settlements, but did not merge with the indigenous population. The numbers of these migrants and conquerors were not very large compared to the indigenous Egyptian population, and they were mostly absorbed over the centuries after having had separate identities for a few generations. Herodotus speaks of the Hermotybians having reached, at their peak, the number of 16 myriads (160,000) and the Calasirians 25 myriads. For individual foreigners integration into Egyptian society seems to have been swift and relatively unproblematical, be it as merchants, soldiers, artisans or servants of the crown [14]. More than 400 officials employed in the royal bureaucracy during the second millennium BCE, have been identified as Asiatics. There is little evidence that they were discriminated against, even if they retained some of their native culture such as foreign names.
The majority of the population lived in villages, near the land they worked and the animals they tended. Close proximity to ones property was necessary to protect it from being stolen. Towns served as regional economic, religious and administrative centres, and their inhabitants began to accumulate wealth [8].
Some of the cities became very sizeable. Diodorus Siculus (first half of the 1st century BCE) speaks of Alexandria:
At the time when we were in Egypt, those who kept the census returns of the population said that its free residents were more than three hundred thousand, and that the king received from the revenues of the country more than six thousand talents
(1) Today's data were taken from Der Fischer Weltalmanach 98, Fischer Taschenbuch Verlag (2) Pre-industrial societies with stable population numbers do not exist anymore.-- (3) Probably closer to 20 than to 30. Life expectancy at birth in the Roman Empire has been estimated to have been between 22 and 25 years. Censuses held in Egypt during the same period give similar results: 22 for women and 25 for men. In comparison: at the turn of the last century (i.e.circa 1900) it was less than 30 years in India. (4) Upper class Egyptians had a life expectancy which exceeded the average by possibly up to a decade - Nerlich does not think there was much of a difference between the pharaohs and their peasants [5]. Women lived about five years less than men because of childbed fever and other complications at birth. (5) The average age at death of grown-up Ugandans was reached by extrapolation. (6) The population growth rate in ancient Egypt fluctuated widely. Periods of relative health and abundance alternated with years of famine and plagues. The average growth rate was very low, the population number doubled in 30 to 60 generations [3] as opposed to today when it takes just about one. (7) Some estimate the literacy rate to have been less than 1% even during the New Kingdom.
There were three main population centres: the Nile valley between Thebes and the first cataract, the Faiyum, and the Delta. To make all the lower lying land along the upper reaches of the Nile fit for cultivation the earth banks of the river had to be cut, in order for the annual flood waters to fill the large scale irrigation basins which had come into being through the building of dams. These earthworks often required cooperation on a scale beyond the capabilities of single villages and was contributory to the formation of regional power centres. The Faiyum, a natural oasis irrigated by the Bahr Yussuf was developed during the Middle Kingdom, when large tracts of land were reclaimed from the Lake and put under cultivation. Under the Ptolemies it was preferred to other regions by the Greeks who settled there in large numbers. The Delta posed problems of drainage and was difficult to settle as few regions were permanently above the level of the high Nile. The marshes along the northern coastline were much of the time water-logged. These problems were overcome to some extent by building dams and drainage canals. In the end the majority of the Egyptian population lived in Lower Egypt.
[1] According to Andreas G. Nerlich of Munich who investigated New Kingdom and Late Period tombs at Thebes the main age of death was between 20 and 40 years, peaking between 20 and 30. Infants and children constituted about a quarter of the buried [5].
[2] Egyptologists tend to dodge the issue of population numbers, as there are no statistics available and all such numbers are based on more or less educated guesswork: ♣ Edward S. Ellis put the New Kingdom population at 5 millions. ♣ The author of the Royal Ontario Museum website gives an estimate of between 1.5 and 5 million Egyptians during the Pyramid Age, a rather non-committing number for a nicely vague and long time period. ♣ Dominic Rathbone estimates that Roman Egypt had a population of 3 to 5 millions, and Bagnall and Frier concur.
Ancient historical sources are not very reliable and open to interpretations: ♣ For what it's worth: a seventh century bishop, John of Nikiu, wrote in his world history about Snefru:
And there was great prosperity in his days and the Egyptians increased very much, and their cattle increased also. And he reigned over them forty and eight years in happiness and peace because of the return of the Egyptians from captivity. And he went to rest full of honour. But before he died he numbered the Egyptians, and their number was 500,000 men.
♣ According to the Harris papyrus somewhat in excess of 100,000 people belonged to the temple estates during the reign of Ramses III. James Henry Breasted thought that they had been less than 2% of the population, which would give an upper limit of 5,000,000 towards the end of the New Kingdom. ♣ Josephus Flavius gives a count of 7½ millions, without Alexandria. ♣ Diodorus spoke of a population of three (others read this as seven) millions at the beginning of the Roman period. In olden times there were more than 18,000 towns and large villages which one can find recorded by name in the sacred lists; under Ptolemy, son of Lagus, more than 3,000 towns were counted, and as many there still are in our times. The total population is said to have amounted to 7 million, and even now it is said to be not less than 3 millions. note -uganda is not a poor country,the povery rate is only below 35%,it is lower middle income of course you could still be a poor state and lower middle icome if most folks are still poor but for uganda this is not the case. edited june 25th
quote:Originally posted by zulu: The Arabic and Turkic Eras:
The wars between the East-Roman Empire and The Persian Empire in the 6th and 7th centuries weakened both empires. The Muslim Arabs attacked both empires in the 7th century. After their conquest of the East-Roman provinces of Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, and Israel, they invaded Egypt in December 641 A.D. Egypt was one of the precious crown jewels of the East-Roman Empire. It was the breadbasket of Rome first then Constantinople. It was a fertile land that produced and exported wheat, corn, wine, oil, textiles, glass, cosmetics, and medicinal and chemical products of the time. The population Copts is estimated to be about 9 millions at the time the Arabs conquest.
The destruction of the Library of Alexandria: Scholars differed in views on how the ancient library of Alexandria was destroyed. However, recent research by Luciano Canfora concluded that the Arab general Amer ibin Alass at the orders of the Arab Caliph Omar ibin Alkhatab did the destruction of the library. The story of the Arabs destruction of the library indicates that it took them six months to burn the books in about one thousand public bathes in Alexandria.
Arab and Turkic Dynasties, 640-1798 A.D.: Several Muslim Arab and Turkic dynasties ruled Egypt from 640 A.D. to 1798 A.D. The French under Napoleon Bonaparte defeated the Ottomans and the Mumelukes rulers of Egypt in 1798 A.D. The Arab dynasties included the Umayyad (660-751 A.D.) and the Abbasids ( 751-880 A.D.) The Turkic dynasties include the Tolonides ( 880-904 A.D.) and the Akhsids ( 904-913 A.D.). They were followed by the Fatimites (913-1171 A.D.), a Shiite Arab dynasty. They were followed by Turkic, Ayubides (1171-1250 A.D.), the Mamelukes (1250-1517 A.D.) and the Ottomans (1517-1798 A.D.). After the Arabs conquest 641 A.D., the start of their rule was relatively mild. The Arab rulers primary interest was in exacting the maximum financial gain out of the rich land of Egypt. John of Nikiu in his chronicles indicates that Amer ibin Alass, after the conquest of Egypt, " increased the taxes to the extent of 22 batr of gold till all the people hid themselves owing to the greatness of the tribulation, and could not find the wherewithal to pay." The Ommyiads followed by the other dynasties instituted heavy taxes including poll tax or Algyzya, tribute and different exactions. At times the Arab rulers found it convenient to throw prominent Copts, e.g. a Bishop or Pope, in jail and request ransom to release them. The Umayyad Caliph Suliman ibin abed Almalek reflected this policy, in writing his appointed ruler of Egypt " to milk the camel until it gives no more milk, and until it milks blood". Though some of the Arab rulers were moderate, most were oppressive, cruel and committed a lot of atrocities against the Coptic population. The ultimate policy of the Muslim Arab rulers changed gradually from maximum financial gain to Isalmization either through incentives of reduced taxation, or by outright violence and force. Arab and Turkic rulers from different dynasties continued to levy heavy taxation to impoverish the Copts, instituted policies to eradicate the Coptic culture, language, leadership, and initiated violence and pogroms against the Coptic population.
Assault on Coptic Language, Culture, and Monuments: The assault on culture that was initiated by the destruction of the Alexandria library continued by the Umayyads who decreed the use the Arabic language instead of Coptic in the governance of Egypt. It took centuries for Arabic to replace Coptic as the spoken language of the land. The Coptic language continued in general use until the 13th century. Unlike the Greek or Roman rulers who maintained and rebuilt some of the ancient Egyptian temples, several Islamic rulers destroyed and pillaged the ancient Egyptian temples and Churches. The marble and porphyry pillars obtained by the destruction of many ancient temples and churches were used to build palaces, mosques, and at times just left a trail of destruction. Sultan El Aziz attempted to destroy the great pyramids of Giza circa 1193 A.D. He gathered a large labor force that attempted to destroy the pyramids for eight months. At the end of which, they succeeded in only destroying a part of the casing of the pyramid and made a small breach in one side. Fortunately the great effort needed convinced El Aziz to abandon the destruction of the pyramids.
Resistance for Oppression: The Arab's oppression led the Copts to several rebellions, but these rebellions failed to break the yoke of oppression or achieve independence. The Copts in the eastern Delta fought against the Ommayyds oppression in 725 A.D. A large-scale Coptic revolt against the Abbasids took place circa 815 A.D. El Maamoun, the Abbasid Caliph, had to bring in a large army with elephants to conquer the Copts revolution of 815 A.D. Even as late as 1176 A.D. the Copts of the city of Koptos revolted against the oppression of the Turkic rulers. The policy of heavy taxation, pillage, and violence was also accompanied by forced migration of Copts to other parts of the Islamic Empire, and settlement of Muslim Arabs into Egypt. As a result, many of the Copts were forced into Islam to escape the continued oppression and heavy taxation. The forced Isalmization policy was followed by most of the Arab rulers, and later on also by most of the Mamluks and Turkic rulers. Gradually, the population of Muslims increased and the Copts decreased. The population of the Copts decreased from 9 million at the time of the Arabs conquest 641 A. D. approximately 700,000 at the early 1900's.
Flourishing and Tribulations: Though persecution of the Copts by the Arabs, Mamluks and Turks was the norm rather than the exception, most of these rulers needed the knowledge of the Copts to govern the country and collect taxes. The history of the Islamic era shows a vicious cycle in which the Muslim rulers hire Copts because of their knowledge, skill and honesty to administer the affairs of the government of Egypt. Accordingly, the Copts do well and prosper, and ultimately the Muslim rulers change their minds for different reasons and expel the Copts from government jobs, confiscate their property, put them in jail, and a times put them to death. As the affairs of the government become erratic without the Copts knowledge, the rulers return back to hire the Copts again and so on. Under the rule of the Fatimite dynasty, one of the rulers was in fact insane. El Hakem hired several Copts in his employment. El Hakem however, decided to either to force his Coptic employees into Islam or kill them. Two prominent Copts Fahed iben Ibrahim, and Yuhana iben Nagah, were among El Hakem's employees, who accepted death rather than converting to Islam 1004 A.D. During the reign of moderate rulers and peaceful times, many Copts managed to excel in literature and the arts. Among the famous writers during the Ayubide dynasty, were the Iben Al Asaal brothers. Though the rule of the Mameluks produced many beautiful monuments, they were bloodthirsty and extremely oppressive for the Egyptians both Muslims and Copts. It is not unusual to read about pogroms launched against the Copts during the Mamluks time. A supposedly devout unknown Fakir, who would instigate a Muslim mob after the Friday Muslim prayers to attack the Copts, their homes and businesses, usually started the pogroms. However, the Mameluks also needed the services of the Copts to run the affairs of the government. Ibrahim Algawhery was the Chief Clerk of the Mameluks Abuel dahab and Ibrahim Bey 1795 A.D. Effectively he was the prime minister of Egypt and he was so influential to the extent that the Muslim historian Algaberti wrote about him and his achievements. Later on in the early 20th century another prominent Copt Botrous Galli became the prime Minister of Egypt under the rule of the British rule.
Are the Aita Africans Djehuti? Or are they Asian?
quote:Originally posted by ausar: For those on this message board who advocate a massacre of the original Egyptians by Arab invaders I ask for complete proof. Show me documented evidence that the following took place. Two or three sentences with nothing but personal opinion will not sufface either.
If Arabs did all this than why did take them 900 years to make Egypt a majority muslim land. They could have done what the Spaniards did to muslims in Spain and Portugal and put the Coptic Christians or anyone else thorough the sword and made Egypt over night a muslim land...but the fact that it took Arab or any other muslim who ruled the land 900 years to make the land majority muslim descredites European propoganda that Arabs used the Sword to convert people. There are Christians in Egypt till today and Christian Arab all over Middle East, if Arabs used force there wouldn't have been any other faiths in Middle East today.
If was the only way to spread the faith than how is it possible that the most populas muslim country in the World Indonesia has never seen or been invaded by any muslim army, but yet the country has over 200+ million muslims more than any other country. Even today you have Christian missioneries who use advertisement, aid to convert poor people in third world and yet they don't come close to the number of people that convert to Islam without advertisement or aid to convert poor, desperate people. The fact that Islam is the fast growing faith in the West were its demonized says allot about the spread of Islam thoroughout history and present day.
Posts: 554 | From: Somaliland | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
Zulu and Kendo you should always post the link to your source that you copy and paste from. The information you pasted is fairly accurate but the other site you posted Zulu is full of bias since it comes from a Coptic site.
The source of Kendo's information:http://nefertiti.iwebland.com/people/
In a later post I will dissect what is true about the Coptic article that was cut and pasted and what is simply false.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:Originally posted by ausar: Zulu and Kendo you should always post the link to your source that you copy and paste from. The information you pasted is fairly accurate but the other site you posted Zulu is full of bias since it comes from a Coptic site.
quote:Originally posted by ausar: Zulu and Kendo you should always post the link to your source that you copy and paste from. The information you pasted is fairly accurate but the other site you posted Zulu is full of bias since it comes from a Coptic site.
posted
Okay here is a crtique of some of the article that Zulu posted about medieval Egypt:
quote:Arab and Turkic Dynasties, 640-1798 A.D.: Several Muslim Arab and Turkic dynasties ruled Egypt from 640 A.D. to 1798 A.D. The French under Napoleon Bonaparte defeated the Ottomans and the Mumelukes rulers of Egypt in 1798 A.D. The Arab dynasties included the Umayyad (660-751 A.D.) and the Abbasids ( 751-880 A.D.) The Turkic dynasties include the Tolonides ( 880-904 A.D.) and the Akhsids ( 904-913 A.D.). They were followed by the Fatimites (913-1171 A.D.), a Shiite Arab dynasty. They were followed by Turkic, Ayubides (1171-1250 A.D.), the Mamelukes (1250-1517 A.D.) and the Ottomans (1517-1798 A.D.). After the Arabs conquest 641 A.D., the start of their rule was relatively mild. The Arab rulers primary interest was in exacting the maximum financial gain out of the rich land of Egypt. John of Nikiu in his chronicles indicates that Amer ibin Alass, after the conquest of Egypt, " increased the taxes to the extent of 22 batr of gold till all the people hid themselves owing to the greatness of the tribulation, and could not find the wherewithal to pay." The Ommyiads followed by the other dynasties instituted heavy taxes including poll tax or Algyzya, tribute and different exactions. At times the Arab rulers found it convenient to throw prominent Copts, e.g. a Bishop or Pope, in jail and request ransom to release them. The Umayyad Caliph Suliman ibin abed Almalek reflected this policy, in writing his appointed ruler of Egypt " to milk the camel until it gives no more milk, and until it milks blood". Though some of the Arab rulers were moderate, most were oppressive, cruel and committed a lot of atrocities against the Coptic population. The ultimate policy of the Muslim Arab rulers changed gradually from maximum financial gain to Isalmization either through incentives of reduced taxation, or by outright violence and force. Arab and Turkic rulers from different dynasties continued to levy heavy taxation to impoverish the Copts, instituted policies to eradicate the Coptic culture, language, leadership, and initiated violence and pogroms against the Coptic population.
The following posted contains alot of facts and some misinformation. The early Caliph did heavily tax the peasants of rural Egypt. Many of the rulers were opressive on the rural populations. What must be clarified is the term for the word Coptic which most in this article are using to mean Egyptian Christians. All Egyptians that lived in Egypt were called Qubti by the Arabs--wheather they were Christians or even practioners of non-Abrahamic faiths. Later Egyptian Muslims that converted to Islam were still considered Mawali and also Qubts so the term Qubt does not relate primarily to Christians.
Ayyubids were not Turkish but actually Kurdish.
Also there were polices insitigated by Caliph Walid I of the Umayyad caliph to eliminate all non-Arabic languages that were spoken in the empire. What is not true is that widescale pogroms were instigated by any of the rulership in Egypt.
See the following:
It was also al-Walid that coupled islamicization with arabicization. Conversion was not forced on conquered peoples; however, since non-believers had to pay an extra tax and were not technically citizens, many people did convert for religious and non-religious reasons. This created several problems, particularly since Islam was so closely connected with being Arab—being Arab, of course, was more than an ethnic identity, it was a tribal identity based on kinship and descent. As more and more Muslims were non-Arabs, the status of Arabs and their culture became threatened. In particular, large numbers of Coptic-speaking (Egypt) and Persian-speaking Muslims threatened the primacy of the very language that Islam is based on. In part to alleviate that threat, al-Walid instituted Arabic as the only official language of the empire. He decreed that all administration was to be done only in Arabic. It was this move that would cement the primacy of Arabic language and culture in the Islamic world.
quote:Assault on Coptic Language, Culture, and Monuments: The assault on culture that was initiated by the destruction of the Alexandria library continued by the Umayyads who decreed the use the Arabic language instead of Coptic in the governance of Egypt
The destruction of the Alexandrian library by invading Muslims is largely an urban legend and has been debunked. See the post by Supercar on the Alexandrian library.
quote:It took centuries for Arabic to replace Coptic as the spoken language of the land. The Coptic language continued in general use until the 13th century.
This is true in parts of Upper Egypt. According to Arab historian al-Marqrizi the Coptic language was spoken quiet fleuntly in rural villages and some claim continued untill the 1700's.
quote:Unlike the Greek or Roman rulers who maintained and rebuilt some of the ancient Egyptian temples, several Islamic rulers destroyed and pillaged the ancient Egyptian temples and Churches. The marble and porphyry pillars obtained by the destruction of many ancient temples and churches were used to build palaces, mosques, and at times just left a trail of destruction. Sultan El Aziz attempted to destroy the great pyramids of Giza circa 1193 A.D. He gathered a large labor force that attempted to destroy the pyramids for eight months. At the end of which, they succeeded in only destroying a part of the casing of the pyramid and made a small breach in one side. Fortunately the great effort needed convinced El Aziz to abandon the destruction of the pyramids.
While the following is true, the article does not mention that many early Coptic monks like Shenute bragged about killing ancient Egyptian priests and also destoying temples or ancient Egyptian relics along the Nile. Both Christian and the Islamic rulers in Egypt have been guilty of destoying ancient Egyptian relics. Shenute's white monestary in Sohag was made of ancient Egyptian temple marble.
However, it can be demonstrated that some of the Arabic and Islamic writers during the medieval period took great interest in ancient Egypt.
While many Egyptians might have been forcefully converted to Islam, many Egyptians were also forced into Christianity by Coptic monks like St. Shenute who went from village to village in Upper Egypt destoying the ancient Egyptian temples and forcing non-Christian Egyptian priests to convert to Christianity.
quote:Resistance for Oppression: The Arab's oppression led the Copts to several rebellions, but these rebellions failed to break the yoke of oppression or achieve independence. The Copts in the eastern Delta fought against the Ommayyds oppression in 725 A.D. A large-scale Coptic revolt against the Abbasids took place circa 815 A.D. El Maamoun, the Abbasid Caliph, had to bring in a large army with elephants to conquer the Copts revolution of 815 A.D. Even as late as 1176 A.D. the Copts of the city of Koptos revolted against the oppression of the Turkic rulers.
The revolts were primarily staged by rural Egyptians in both the Delta and Upper Egypt. Most of the revolts were over taxiation during the various foreign rulers in Medieval Egypt. Just converting to Islam often would not exempt one from taxiation either for a Abbasid qadi ruled that both Egyptian Christians and Muslims had to pay kharj on the basis that Egypt was conquered by force. This ruling was despite the fact that Egypt was not conquered by force.
For information on the decision by the qadi to tax Egyptian Muslims see the following book:
See the essay Land-Tenure in Egypt in the First Five Centuries of Islamic Rule (Seventh–Twelfth Centuries AD), Gladys Frantz-Murphy
Taxiation revolts did not just start with the Arabs but actually started in the Ptolemic era and continued into the Roman occupation of Egypt. Arabs were not the first opressors of rural Egyptian fellahin. Egyptian fellahin were remarked as being very strong people that would take beatings to resist taxiation and sometimes flee to different parts of Egypt. A common destination for most fleeing Egyptian pesants was Upper Egypt and northern Sudan. Many lower Egyptians fled from Roman taxiation to these areas.
For more details about this era I recommend Egypt After the Pharoahs by Alan K. Bowman and Life in Egypt Under Roman Rule by Naphtali Lewis
quote:The policy of heavy taxation, pillage, and violence was also accompanied by forced migration of Copts to other parts of the Islamic Empire, and settlement of Muslim Arabs into Egypt. As a result, many of the Copts were forced into Islam to escape the continued oppression and heavy taxation.
This was only true for the people who partiscipated in the various revolts. Many were relocated in parts of Iraq and forced to become soliders to actually stop the Zanji revolt in southern iraq. The rest were sold into slavery according to the contemporary history Michael the Syrian. However, the Muslim Arabs were only settled in Bilbeis and other areas around the Eastern Delta in Lower Egypt. The Fatimids tried to settled Bani Hilal and Bani Sulaim into parts of Middle Egypt but they were later expelled in large amounts of Magreb[Northwestern Africa].
The Mamelukes pushed the Hawaara tribe into parts of modern day Sohag[the Hawaara treated the fellahin terrible and refused intermarriage with them]. Most of them,however, did not take to agritcultural activity and remained a nomadic menace to the rural Fellahin. Most of these Bedouin tribes were not settled completely untill around the late 1700's-1800's. Many of the nomadic tribes like the Hawaara are actually Arabized berber tribes.
quote:The forced Isalmization policy was followed by most of the Arab rulers, and later on also by most of the Mamluks and Turkic rulers. Gradually, the population of Muslims increased and the Copts decreased. The population of the Copts decreased from 9 million at the time of the Arabs conquest 641 A. D. approximately 700,000 at the early 1900'
Not all of the converts in Egypt were forced into Islam. Many choice Islam as their religion converting. Some were forced just like many early Christian converts in Egypt were forced. The issue is not as simple as this essay attempts to make out. Plus the population of Egypt was no where near 9 million,and you must also included the foreign populations in Egypt that resided alongside the Qubts.
Many of the people that converted people in Upper Egypt to Islam are people like Abul'l al Hagag. He was a sufi saint from Iraq. You have similar stories all across Lower and Upper Egypt.
quote: Flourishing and Tribulations: Though persecution of the Copts by the Arabs, Mamluks and Turks was the norm rather than the exception, most of these rulers needed the knowledge of the Copts to govern the country and collect taxes. The history of the Islamic era shows a vicious cycle in which the Muslim rulers hire Copts because of their knowledge, skill and honesty to administer the affairs of the government of Egypt. Accordingly, the Copts do well and prosper, and ultimately the Muslim rulers change their minds for different reasons and expel the Copts from government jobs, confiscate their property, put them in jail, and a times put them to death. As the affairs of the government become erratic without the Copts knowledge, the rulers return back to hire the Copts again and so on. Under the rule of the Fatimite dynasty, one of the rulers was in fact insane. El Hakem hired several Copts in his employment. El Hakem however, decided to either to force his Coptic employees into Islam or kill them. Two prominent Copts Fahed iben Ibrahim, and Yuhana iben Nagah, were among El Hakem's employees, who accepted death rather than converting to Islam 1004 A.D. During the reign of moderate rulers and peaceful times, many Copts managed to excel in literature and the arts. Among the famous writers during the Ayubide dynasty, were the Iben Al Asaal brothers. Though the rule of the Mameluks produced many beautiful monuments, they were bloodthirsty and extremely oppressive for the Egyptians both Muslims and Copts. It is not unusual to read about pogroms launched against the Copts during the Mamluks time. A supposedly devout unknown Fakir, who would instigate a Muslim mob after the Friday Muslim prayers to attack the Copts, their homes and businesses, usually started the pogroms. However, the Mameluks also needed the services of the Copts to run the affairs of the government. Ibrahim Algawhery was the Chief Clerk of the Mameluks Abuel dahab and Ibrahim Bey 1795 A.D. Effectively he was the prime minister of Egypt and he was so influential to the extent that the Muslim historian Algaberti wrote about him and his achievements. Later on in the early 20th century another prominent Copt Botrous Galli became the prime Minister of Egypt under the rule of the British rule.
This is also true of many Muslim converts placed in hight positions were not trusted by the foreign rulers.
Most of the Fatimid period was peaceful for christians except for el Hakim. Hakim was a lunatic that even banned chess and women from walking the streets.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Okay here is a crtique of some of the article that Zulu posted about medieval Egypt:
quote:Arab and Turkic Dynasties, 640-1798 A.D.: Several Muslim Arab and Turkic dynasties ruled Egypt from 640 A.D. to 1798 A.D. The French under Napoleon Bonaparte defeated the Ottomans and the Mumelukes rulers of Egypt in 1798 A.D. The Arab dynasties included the Umayyad (660-751 A.D.) and the Abbasids ( 751-880 A.D.) The Turkic dynasties include the Tolonides ( 880-904 A.D.) and the Akhsids ( 904-913 A.D.). They were followed by the Fatimites (913-1171 A.D.), a Shiite Arab dynasty. They were followed by Turkic, Ayubides (1171-1250 A.D.), the Mamelukes (1250-1517 A.D.) and the Ottomans (1517-1798 A.D.). After the Arabs conquest 641 A.D., the start of their rule was relatively mild. The Arab rulers primary interest was in exacting the maximum financial gain out of the rich land of Egypt. John of Nikiu in his chronicles indicates that Amer ibin Alass, after the conquest of Egypt, " increased the taxes to the extent of 22 batr of gold till all the people hid themselves owing to the greatness of the tribulation, and could not find the wherewithal to pay." The Ommyiads followed by the other dynasties instituted heavy taxes including poll tax or Algyzya, tribute and different exactions. At times the Arab rulers found it convenient to throw prominent Copts, e.g. a Bishop or Pope, in jail and request ransom to release them. The Umayyad Caliph Suliman ibin abed Almalek reflected this policy, in writing his appointed ruler of Egypt " to milk the camel until it gives no more milk, and until it milks blood". Though some of the Arab rulers were moderate, most were oppressive, cruel and committed a lot of atrocities against the Coptic population. The ultimate policy of the Muslim Arab rulers changed gradually from maximum financial gain to Isalmization either through incentives of reduced taxation, or by outright violence and force. Arab and Turkic rulers from different dynasties continued to levy heavy taxation to impoverish the Copts, instituted policies to eradicate the Coptic culture, language, leadership, and initiated violence and pogroms against the Coptic population.
The following posted contains alot of facts and some misinformation. The early Caliph did heavily tax the peasants of rural Egypt. Many of the rulers were opressive on the rural populations. What must be clarified is the term for the word Coptic which most in this article are using to mean Egyptian Christians. All Egyptians that lived in Egypt were called Qubti by the Arabs--wheather they were Christians or even practioners of non-Abrahamic faiths. Later Egyptian Muslims that converted to Islam were still considered Mawali and also Qubts so the term Qubt does not relate primarily to Christians.
Ayyubids were not Turkish but actually Kurdish.
Also there were polices insitigated by Caliph Walid I of the Umayyad caliph to eliminate all non-Arabic languages that were spoken in the empire. What is not true is that widescale pogroms were instigated by any of the rulership in Egypt.
See the following:
It was also al-Walid that coupled islamicization with arabicization. Conversion was not forced on conquered peoples; however, since non-believers had to pay an extra tax and were not technically citizens, many people did convert for religious and non-religious reasons. This created several problems, particularly since Islam was so closely connected with being Arab—being Arab, of course, was more than an ethnic identity, it was a tribal identity based on kinship and descent. As more and more Muslims were non-Arabs, the status of Arabs and their culture became threatened. In particular, large numbers of Coptic-speaking (Egypt) and Persian-speaking Muslims threatened the primacy of the very language that Islam is based on. In part to alleviate that threat, al-Walid instituted Arabic as the only official language of the empire. He decreed that all administration was to be done only in Arabic. It was this move that would cement the primacy of Arabic language and culture in the Islamic world.
quote:Assault on Coptic Language, Culture, and Monuments: The assault on culture that was initiated by the destruction of the Alexandria library continued by the Umayyads who decreed the use the Arabic language instead of Coptic in the governance of Egypt
The destruction of the Alexandrian library by invading Muslims is largely an urban legend and has been debunked. See the post by Supercar on the Alexandrian library.
quote:It took centuries for Arabic to replace Coptic as the spoken language of the land. The Coptic language continued in general use until the 13th century.
This is true in parts of Upper Egypt. According to Arab historian al-Marqrizi the Coptic language was spoken quiet fleuntly in rural villages and some claim continued untill the 1700's.
quote:Unlike the Greek or Roman rulers who maintained and rebuilt some of the ancient Egyptian temples, several Islamic rulers destroyed and pillaged the ancient Egyptian temples and Churches. The marble and porphyry pillars obtained by the destruction of many ancient temples and churches were used to build palaces, mosques, and at times just left a trail of destruction. Sultan El Aziz attempted to destroy the great pyramids of Giza circa 1193 A.D. He gathered a large labor force that attempted to destroy the pyramids for eight months. At the end of which, they succeeded in only destroying a part of the casing of the pyramid and made a small breach in one side. Fortunately the great effort needed convinced El Aziz to abandon the destruction of the pyramids.
While the following is true, the article does not mention that many early Coptic monks like Shenute bragged about killing ancient Egyptian priests and also destoying temples or ancient Egyptian relics along the Nile. Both Christian and the Islamic rulers in Egypt have been guilty of destoying ancient Egyptian relics. Shenute's white monestary in Sohag was made of ancient Egyptian temple marble.
However, it can be demonstrated that some of the Arabic and Islamic writers during the medieval period took great interest in ancient Egypt.
While many Egyptians might have been forcefully converted to Islam, many Egyptians were also forced into Christianity by Coptic monks like St. Shenute who went from village to village in Upper Egypt destoying the ancient Egyptian temples and forcing non-Christian Egyptian priests to convert to Christianity.
quote:Resistance for Oppression: The Arab's oppression led the Copts to several rebellions, but these rebellions failed to break the yoke of oppression or achieve independence. The Copts in the eastern Delta fought against the Ommayyds oppression in 725 A.D. A large-scale Coptic revolt against the Abbasids took place circa 815 A.D. El Maamoun, the Abbasid Caliph, had to bring in a large army with elephants to conquer the Copts revolution of 815 A.D. Even as late as 1176 A.D. the Copts of the city of Koptos revolted against the oppression of the Turkic rulers.
The revolts were primarily staged by rural Egyptians in both the Delta and Upper Egypt. Most of the revolts were over taxiation during the various foreign rulers in Medieval Egypt. Just converting to Islam often would not exempt one from taxiation either for a Abbasid qadi ruled that both Egyptian Christians and Muslims had to pay kharj on the basis that Egypt was conquered by force. This ruling was despite the fact that Egypt was not conquered by force.
For information on the decision by the qadi to tax Egyptian Muslims see the following book:
See the essay Land-Tenure in Egypt in the First Five Centuries of Islamic Rule (Seventh–Twelfth Centuries AD), Gladys Frantz-Murphy
Taxiation revolts did not just start with the Arabs but actually started in the Ptolemic era and continued into the Roman occupation of Egypt. Arabs were not the first opressors of rural Egyptian fellahin. Egyptian fellahin were remarked as being very strong people that would take beatings to resist taxiation and sometimes flee to different parts of Egypt. A common destination for most fleeing Egyptian pesants was Upper Egypt and northern Sudan. Many lower Egyptians fled from Roman taxiation to these areas.
For more details about this era I recommend Egypt After the Pharoahs by Alan K. Bowman and Life in Egypt Under Roman Rule by Naphtali Lewis
quote:The policy of heavy taxation, pillage, and violence was also accompanied by forced migration of Copts to other parts of the Islamic Empire, and settlement of Muslim Arabs into Egypt. As a result, many of the Copts were forced into Islam to escape the continued oppression and heavy taxation.
This was only true for the people who partiscipated in the various revolts. Many were relocated in parts of Iraq and forced to become soliders to actually stop the Zanji revolt in southern iraq. The rest were sold into slavery according to the contemporary history Michael the Syrian. However, the Muslim Arabs were only settled in Bilbeis and other areas around the Eastern Delta in Lower Egypt. The Fatimids tried to settled Bani Hilal and Bani Sulaim into parts of Middle Egypt but they were later expelled in large amounts of Magreb[Northwestern Africa].
The Mamelukes pushed the Hawaara tribe into parts of modern day Sohag[the Hawaara treated the fellahin terrible and refused intermarriage with them]. Most of them,however, did not take to agritcultural activity and remained a nomadic menace to the rural Fellahin. Most of these Bedouin tribes were not settled completely untill around the late 1700's-1800's. Many of the nomadic tribes like the Hawaara are actually Arabized berber tribes.
quote:The forced Isalmization policy was followed by most of the Arab rulers, and later on also by most of the Mamluks and Turkic rulers. Gradually, the population of Muslims increased and the Copts decreased. The population of the Copts decreased from 9 million at the time of the Arabs conquest 641 A. D. approximately 700,000 at the early 1900'
Not all of the converts in Egypt were forced into Islam. Many choice Islam as their religion converting. Some were forced just like many early Christian converts in Egypt were forced. The issue is not as simple as this essay attempts to make out. Plus the population of Egypt was no where near 9 million,and you must also included the foreign populations in Egypt that resided alongside the Qubts.
Many of the people that converted people in Upper Egypt to Islam are people like Abul'l al Hagag. He was a sufi saint from Iraq. You have similar stories all across Lower and Upper Egypt.
quote: Flourishing and Tribulations: Though persecution of the Copts by the Arabs, Mamluks and Turks was the norm rather than the exception, most of these rulers needed the knowledge of the Copts to govern the country and collect taxes. The history of the Islamic era shows a vicious cycle in which the Muslim rulers hire Copts because of their knowledge, skill and honesty to administer the affairs of the government of Egypt. Accordingly, the Copts do well and prosper, and ultimately the Muslim rulers change their minds for different reasons and expel the Copts from government jobs, confiscate their property, put them in jail, and a times put them to death. As the affairs of the government become erratic without the Copts knowledge, the rulers return back to hire the Copts again and so on. Under the rule of the Fatimite dynasty, one of the rulers was in fact insane. El Hakem hired several Copts in his employment. El Hakem however, decided to either to force his Coptic employees into Islam or kill them. Two prominent Copts Fahed iben Ibrahim, and Yuhana iben Nagah, were among El Hakem's employees, who accepted death rather than converting to Islam 1004 A.D. During the reign of moderate rulers and peaceful times, many Copts managed to excel in literature and the arts. Among the famous writers during the Ayubide dynasty, were the Iben Al Asaal brothers. Though the rule of the Mameluks produced many beautiful monuments, they were bloodthirsty and extremely oppressive for the Egyptians both Muslims and Copts. It is not unusual to read about pogroms launched against the Copts during the Mamluks time. A supposedly devout unknown Fakir, who would instigate a Muslim mob after the Friday Muslim prayers to attack the Copts, their homes and businesses, usually started the pogroms. However, the Mameluks also needed the services of the Copts to run the affairs of the government. Ibrahim Algawhery was the Chief Clerk of the Mameluks Abuel dahab and Ibrahim Bey 1795 A.D. Effectively he was the prime minister of Egypt and he was so influential to the extent that the Muslim historian Algaberti wrote about him and his achievements. Later on in the early 20th century another prominent Copt Botrous Galli became the prime Minister of Egypt under the rule of the British rule.
This is also true of many Muslim converts placed in hight positions were not trusted by the foreign rulers.
Most of the Fatimid period was peaceful for christians except for el Hakim. Hakim was a lunatic that even banned chess and women from walking the streets.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
I will start a new topic on this subject ausar there is many evidence pointing to the arabs destroying killing pillaging raping Egypt physically and mentally. Give me a Week
-------------------- Hikuptah Al-Masri Posts: 526 | From: Aswan Egypt | Registered: Jun 2006
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quote:I will start a new topic on this subject ausar there is many evidence pointing to the arabs destroying killing pillaging raping Egypt physically and mentally. Give me a Week
I await your responce,akhi. Understand I have always stated the Arabs destoyed and pillaged Egypt and that the Medieval Egyptian era can be described as colonization. What I doubt is that large scale massacres occured in Egypt in the same way that Europeans did to native Americans.
Although, I am sure that killing of indigenous Egyptians did occur.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
Supercar makes an interesting point about there being a contradiction in the way Europe writes the history of the Arab invasion of Egypt. Some sources say the marauding Arabs destroyed libraries and treasure troves of knowledge, and yet these same Arabs are attributed to preserving this very knowledge which was later passed on to Europeans during the Middle Ages and after.
Another aspect that native Egyptians were not "wiped out" by invading Arabs is also made clear in genetics by the fact that many "Arab" Egyptians carry a significant percentage of African lineages even male lineages!
So much for Arabs "wiping out" the Egyptians. Posts: 26267 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
It is safe to say that elements of resistance were wiped out but people were forcibly copnverted, or the dispossessed indigenous groups used Islam as a source of strength and vengeance to topple those who put them down in the first place. It is only natural because that is historical Islam. The modern equivalent is that when Berber groups in the 60's began to clamour for more use of their languange, they were forcibly labelled as "rabble rousers" and branded as anti-Islamic??
Posts: 1290 | From: usa | Registered: May 2005
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