What studies have shown that Fulanis have A mid eastern component? I have never read any studies that say Fulanis have a middle East Component. If you have this study I would like to read it. All I see about Fulani is that they are related to other West Africans Very Closely.
Peace
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
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The Fulani are closely related to Ibo, Yoruba, Kru, Volta, Mande, Sandawe and other West Africans. Cruciani found the highest level of E3a lineage in the world among the Fulani in Nigeria at 100%(!). That is major news as it is rare to find anything approaching 100% for a single Y lineage among any population anywhere in the world. Cruciani is the most up to date study on the Fulani it was done in 2004. Fulani in Niger have E3a at 71%
Phenotypically the Fulani are of elongated type, but elongated and broad types are both Native to East and West/Central Africa the elongated phenotype is the product of adaption to hot-dry environment, not of East vs. West Africa. West Africa is Home to both indeginous elongated and broad Africans. Herukhuti The Fulani have nothing in particular to do with Nubians, Nilotics, or Berbers or Arabs. They are Niger-Congo speakers and descendant of ancient saharans who thus have an elongated morphology characteristic of adaption to hot/dry climates
No matter how you look at it the Fulanis do not have a mid-east mixture. They are 100% West African. As for R1* Uldeme of Cameroon have this lineage at 95.2% frequency of R1*-M173. And they look like regular West Africans. I have never heard about the Fulani of Niger having this Lineage. Again Redcow if you have proof of this I would like to read it.
Peace
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: I believe Herukhuti's beliefs on the Fulani's so-called "Arab-mixed" ancestry stems from their physical appearance as the guy stated himself.
My response was straightforward and the SAME thing I said several times before.
The Arab ancestry in Berbers varies and depends on which region of North Africa and from which Berber group.
Fulani rarely marry outside their group, but I'm sure those who intermarried with Berbers, of those Berbers they married were either of Tamashek (Tuareg), Zenaga etc.--- neighboring Berbers.
As known, the Al Moravid and Al Mohadis were indigenous black North African groups who were mainly responsible for the spread of Islam throughout Saharan and thence Sub-Saharan Africa. As for how much these groups intermarried with Arabs, I do not know. What is know however is that Arab ancestry in the Sahel is minimal if even present. The Arabs themselves were predominantly confined to the coastal areas and follow a east to west gradient with greater Arab concenrations to the east especially in Egypt.
The study cited that Fulani had 100% E3a paternal lineages was done on Nigerian Fulani I believe. The same study also said they were also fully African in autosomal lineages.
Arab ancestry cannot nor should not be explained for their Islamic faith as with any other Muslim in West Africa. The spread of Islam in West Africa should be accepted as congenial act of acculturation adopted by black Africans and further spread by black Africans.
Unless you want to go the way of Hotep thinks Arabs conquered and brainwashed West Africans too.LOL
I agree. As far as I know, there weren't any Arabs that conquered West Africa. A lot of people falsely believe the Almoravids were Arabs...but this is not so. The Almoravids came from West and North-West Africa. This is obvious when you look at the description of the Almoravids concerning their venturing into Al-Andalus. The Almohades were practically identical.
Though, the notion that the Almoravides conquered Ancient Mali has been disputed by modern African historians.
Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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Wow! The R1* Y chromosome Haplotype is MiddleEastern and the title of the article says "Brief communication: mtDNA variation in North Cameroon: lack of Asian lineages and implications for back migration from Asia to sub-Saharan Africa". Asia here refers to the MiddleEast. 2005 is later than 2004.
Myra posted a later article from 2006 which says "Despite the large size of the contemporary nomadic Fulani population (roughly 13 million people), the genetic diversity and degree of differentiation of Fulanis compared to other sub-Saharan populations remain unknown. We sampled four Fulani nomad populations (n = 186) in three countries of sub-Saharan Africa (Chad, Cameroon, and Burkina Faso) and analyzed sequences of the first hypervariable segment of the mitochondrial DNA. Most of the haplotypes belong to haplogroups of West African origin, such as L1b, L3b, L3d, L2b, L2c, and L2d (79.6% in total), which are all well represented in each of the four geographically separated samples. The haplogroups of Western Eurasian origin, such as J1b, U5, H, and V, were also detected but in rather low frequencies (8.1% in total).
Most of their mtDNA are African. Yet, 8.1% is West Eurasian. Middle Eastern means West Eurasian. I was surprised to see it. J1b? V?
The Hassaniyya Arabs entered what is Mauritania in the Middle Ages after the Berbers and the Black helpers took Espanya. They are called the descendants of the Amalekites. So, there is the J Y chromosome in the Mahgreb. Most of the Blacks in Mauritania are Peul.
One more time. The Tukulor Empire extended into Nigeria. They were the Black Fulani Hal-Pulaar-en. No wonder they have 100% E3a Y chromosomes. The Wolof should be that way as well. But, Cameroon and Niger has the Wodaabe Red Fulani.
The Berbers are called Arabs. They are not really, but since they look like it, they are called that and they are accepted. The Fulani pastoralists rode side by side with the Berber/Tuareg North Africans for centuries. They are very connected. They share common cultural traits. The Tuareg and Peul existed together in the Sahara for thousands of years. Francophone websites one after another acknowledge all this.
If you'd look carefully, you'd see the clothing of the Wodaabe = M'Bororo is the same as the Lebu on the walls of Egyptian temples. They both wear long tunics with fringes. And the Peul women tattoo their faces the same way the Berber women in North Africa do. But, like I say, you know more than the Fulani themselves.
From the hap3b.pdf file, the Nigerien Peul are 71% E3a and have no other E Y chromosomes. So, is the Y chromosome of the 29%. Use logic! They are Wodaabe like the Cameroonians. So, hard to figure out?
The Sudanic people of West Africa are related to the people in East Africa also genetically in some of their mtDNAs. Beyond that, the elongated tall skinny or slender people came from East Africa. One cultural proof is the megalithic complexes and burial mounds which stretch from Ethiopia to Mali to Senegal.
Please don't say....Oh Oh Oh I never heard of that, therefore it must not be true. Again you say the Nilotic have no connection to the Peuls. if you could read French and the article I gave you, you'd read an entry by a Tutsi
Je suis un réscapé Tutsi, un peuple de pasteurs comme les Peuls. Une des thèses sur notre origine serait la terre d’Egypte. Existe une parenté entre ces deux peuples ? Je rappelle aux lecteurs que plus d’un million de Tutsi ont été tués durant le génocide d’avril 1994.
King, this is a big subject. What you should really do is read what the Fulanis and other Africans say about all this. We disagree on the subject of mixing and my view is based on a long study of francophone tests and websites and reading forums and articles by and about the Peuls and seeing photos and paintings of Peuls. We agree that the Fulani are basically Black. We also disagree on who they are linked to. I'm finished on this topic.
Posts: 1115 | From: GOD Bless the USA | Registered: May 2006
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Most of us have already seen these reports. I don't know what the original R1* father looked like.
This report is from 2005
Brief communication: mtDNA variation in North Cameroon: lack of Asian lineages and implications for back migration from Asia to sub-Saharan Africa.Coia V, Destro-Bisol G, Verginelli F, Battaggia C, Boschi I, Cruciani F, Spedini G, Comas D, Calafell F. Department of Animal and Human Biology, University La Sapienza, 00185 Rome, Italy.
The hypervariable region-1 and four nucleotide positions (10400, 10873, 12308, and 12705) of the coding region of mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) were analyzed in 441 individuals belonging to eight populations (Daba, Fali, Fulbe, Mandara, Uldeme, Podokwo, Tali, and Tupuri) from North Cameroon and four populations (Bakaka, Bassa, Bamileke, and Ewondo) from South Cameroon. All mtDNAs were assigned to five haplogroups: three sub-Saharan (L1, L2, and L3), one northern African (U6), and one European (U5). Our results contrast with the observed high frequencies of a Y-chromosome haplogroup of probable Asian origin (R1*-M173) in North Cameroon. As a first step toward a better understanding of the evident discrepancy between mtDNA and Y-chromosome data, we propose two contrasting scenarios. The first one, here termed "migration and asymmetric admixture," implies a back migration from Asia to North Cameroon of a population group carrying the haplotype R1*-M173 at high frequency, and an admixture process restricted to migrant males.
The second scenario, on the other hand, temed "divergent drift," implies that modern populations of North Cameroon originated from a small population group which migrated from Asia to Africa and in which, through genetic drift, Y-chromosome haplotype R1*-M173 became predominant, whereas the Asian mtDNA haplogroups were lost. Copyright 2005 Wiley-Liss, Inc
This idea about R1*-M173 originating in Asia, is highly speculative; Recalling...
elsewhere I wrote this, spawned by this very same study from Myra, yet again:
M173 chromosomes (group R) are observed in the Bantu of southern Cameroon (14.3%), Oman (10.7%), Egypt (6.8%), and the Hutu (1.4%). Whereas the R1*-M173 undifferentiated lineage is present in all four populations, the two downstream mutations, M17 and M269, are confined to Egypt and Oman. - Luis et al.
... The Oman collection in the present study is the only population outside of Africa in which R1*-M173 has been found. - Luis et al.
From what I've seen thus far, the Omani frequency of R1 consistently falls short of that present in Central Africa. While I can visualize the idea of its presence in Egypt being ancient, and perhaps as relics of ancient back-migration through the Levantine corridor [with derivatives like R1a1 being remnants of later back-flow into the Nile Valley], the idea that downstream mutation is needed, so as to reach the conclusion on the origins of R1 itself, isn't a strong presupposition, IMO. That downstream mutations like R1a and R1b exist in high frequencies in Eurasia [and rare in Africa], simply tells us, well... that Asia is where the split occurred. Now if it was somehow shown that the R1*-M173 in the Nile Valley or Oman is older than those found in the African interior, perhaps, this would be a relatively stronger case for its origins outside the continent! I am still open to seeing the different angles from which this matter of R1*-M173 presence in Africa is approached, which would increasingly lessen the "possibility" of its origins in Africa.
^^In response to which, Rasol posted this piece from Keita:
"It might be likely that the greater percentage of haplotypes called "Eurasian" are predominately, although not solely, of indigenous African origin."
"Early hunting and gathering paleolithic populations can be modeled as having roamed between northern Africa and Eurasia, leaving asymmetrical distribution of various derivative variants over a wide region, giving the appearance of Eurasian incursion." - Keita
Wow! The R1* Y chromosome Haplotype is MiddleEastern and the title of the article says "Brief communication: mtDNA variation in North Cameroon: lack of Asian lineages and implications for back migration from Asia to sub-Saharan Africa". Asia here refers to the MiddleEast. 2005 is later than 2004.
Myra posted a later article from 2006 which says "Despite the large size of the contemporary nomadic Fulani population (roughly 13 million people), the genetic diversity and degree of differentiation of Fulanis compared to other sub-Saharan populations remain unknown. We sampled four Fulani nomad populations (n = 186) in three countries of sub-Saharan Africa (Chad, Cameroon, and Burkina Faso) and analyzed sequences of the first hypervariable segment of the mitochondrial DNA. Most of the haplotypes belong to haplogroups of West African origin, such as L1b, L3b, L3d, L2b, L2c, and L2d (79.6% in total), which are all well represented in each of the four geographically separated samples. The haplogroups of Western Eurasian origin, such as J1b, U5, H, and V, were also detected but in rather low frequencies (8.1% in total).
Most of their mtDNA are African. Yet, 8.1% is West Eurasian. Middle Eastern means West Eurasian. I was surprised to see it. J1b? V?
...more likely [south] west European [particularly H and V mtDNA], probably from historic interactions with "Berbers"/west Afrasan speakers from the coastal areas of west Africa.
Ps - what about the J1b, followed by the question mark; what are you trying to tell us about it?
quote:Shango:
The Berbers are called Arabs.
By whom? There are Arabized "Berbers" who will tolerate it, but try telling this to west Afrasan speakers who prefer their indigineous "Berber"/west Afrasan heritage.
quote:Shango:
The Sudanic people of West Africa are related to the people in East Africa also genetically in some of their mtDNAs. Beyond that, the elongated tall skinny or slender people came from East Africa.
All Africans ultimately came from East Africa. What's your point?
I don't know when pseudo-scientists will ever stop mystifying the Fulani, who are as ordinary west African as any other; I guess reactionary thought comes with the territory.
Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Supercar: I don't know when pseudo-scientists will ever stop mystifying the Fulani, who are as ordinary west African as any other; I guess reactionary thought comes with the territory.
Indeed. I think much of the problem stems from the Fulani themselves. If you keep telling people you're partly "Arab", well then, people will tend to believe you... hence the myth is propagated.
The real issue here is that most of us west Africans have been misinformed for centuries (i.e. since the slave trade distabilised our cultures). Even some Yoruba (my peoples) say they came from Mecca! All the tribal/civil wars we've had to endure have ensured the status quo. Our current obsession with religion I think, is the main Achilles' heel. We cannot be enlightened until we reject dogma.
Djehuti, I dig that you have noble intentions but like the African-American saying goes, "be easy". Posts: 3423 | From: the jungle - when y'all stop playing games, call me. | Registered: Jul 2006
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Yes we disagree but that should not stop the debate. You have shown that you know a lot about the Fulani and I respect what you have said. But you have to understand that the Fulanis are Elongated West Africans and they did not come from east Africa. If you mean a long time ago then all west Africans come from East Africa. As for R1* yes it is a West Eurasian lineage but it is found at its highest frequency in the Uldeme of Cameroon and these cameroonians are broad looking Africans. This should give us a clue that if it was back migration that was the cause of R1* being found in the Uldeme that it was brought by West Eurasians that were still tropically Adapted people since the Uldeme are Broad west Africans and look like other broad west Africans. This does not really say much about the Fulani because this lineage does not have an effect on what the Fulani look like. The Fulani are still Elongated West Africans. And I can't speculate about the Wodaabe having R1* lineage I need valid proof. If the Fulani of Niger had R1* then I think that It would of been said in the study you posted on them.
I never said that I think I know more about the Fulani then anyone you keep saying this to keep your pride. You need to humble yourself. No one is trying to make the Fulanis anything they are other then you who is trying to say that they are not really west African. You should realize that R1* does not make Fulanis look any different then other west Africans. I made a mistake about the Cruciani study being the most up to date and for this I am wrong, but this study is still the most accurate when it comes to showing what the Fulanis lineage is.
Peace
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
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Thanks to Djehuti I have been reading this thread. I have see from this thread that the Fulani are indeed 100% West African. Like the Egyptians I used to think that Fulani had Asiatic blood in them. But thanks to KING and Djehuti both doing their homework. I realize that the Fulanis do not have Asiatic blood and what they have in regards to Foreign genes is minimal at best. I used to believe a little in the Fulanis coming from Egypt, but thanks to the studies presented by KING I see this is not the case. This is all very much to take in some of my thoughts on Africans have changed. I am beginning to realize that Africans that Look different from other Africans does not need to be explained away with genes from the middle east. Thanks Djehuti for bring this thread to my attention.
To Redcow
I used to think like you that the Fulani came from Egypt but the stuff presented by KING and Djehuti seems to be more accurate then what you are saying. You try to justify Fulani from Nigeria having 100% E3a by saying that Fulani from Niger only have 71% E3a. You say that the rest of the 29% is made up of R1*. You have not shown this to be the case you seem to be to emotional to argue with. By your logic the Hausa are 60% R1* because they are only 40% E3a. This does not make much sense. You seem to take that the Fulani are not from East Africa very personally. While I take this as good news you try in vain to say that KING and Djehuti are wrong you have not really shown any evidence of middle eastern genes your whole arguement seems to be that you have spoken to the Fulani people personally and they say they come from the east so we should ignore genetics and take their word on it. Be a Man It is okay to admit when you are wrong. Fulani are west Africans and belong only to west Africa. What is so hard to accept? and also you say stuff like African Americans are mixed when really only 17% of African Americans are mixed. You seem obsessed with making people mixed when they really are not. You need to approach African people and history with a open mind this is the only way to learn. KING and Supercar asked you questions I think you should answer them.
Anyways this is a good thread with great pictures of the Fulani I hope everyone reading this take a look at the Pictures. Their is lots of Fulani in these pictures. This is one of KINGs Picture threads. It is a good one.
The only other person who thought that the Fulani were not really from west Africa is Herukhuti. He like me thought that because the fulani look different then other west Africans that they were mixed. But when he read the studies he too realized that he was wrong. He was man enough to admit that he was wrong. Redcow seems to just want to believe what he hears from the Fulani people and ignore genetic data that does not agree with his beliefs. Redcow should be looking for truth instead of trying to cover up truth.
Posts: 32 | From: Waterloo | Registered: Aug 2006
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Big confusion here. This idea of halPulaaren as "impure" is colonialist nonsense. Anyone speaking Fulbe belongs to halPulaaren. Colonialist wanted to distinguish halPulaaren of Tekrur (Tukolor) from all other Fulbe. They had Speke's "Hamitic Hypothesis" in mind and used facial features and hair to do the job, going as far as to invent something anybody with eyes could see was patently inaccurate: straight hair on Fulani heads.
Those Bororo known as Wodaabe are the least admixed of all Fulani but all other Fulani shy away from marrying Wodaabe like it was taboo since they view Wodaabe as taboo breakers.
Fulani history doesn't go back much past 5th cent. CE although modern scholastics can go back to the so-called "Bovidian" era of the Sahara and show cultural-economic and physical anthropology similarities surviving today. See the work of the modern scholar Hampate Ba, who is himself a Peuhl.
Depending on which Fulani historians you ask you will hear slightly different origins for the folk who enter Arabic recorded West African historiography. All agree that Bajjemongo (of Sinai/Palestinian Jewish origins)is the mother, but whether the father(s) of her children are a Jew, an Arab, or even a water spirit, various from one group of Fulani to the next.
Genetic anthropology doesn't support Fulani history. Neither does archaeology. Lingusitics partially supports Fulani history.
The belief that the Fulani have mixed ancestry due to certain features deemed "caucasoid" is the Eurocentric fallacy of the 'Hamitic'Myth. According to this myth, true or "authentic" black Africans were only limited to a certain stereotypical look e.g. dark skin, broad noses, everted lips, etc.
I have already cited evidence (which has been cited hundreds of times on this forum) that such features like long narrow faces and narrow noses have NOTHING to do Eurasians or even the false concept of the "kacazoid" race itself. Such features are found around the globe and are indigenous to many areas including Africa.
It was such so-called "kacazoid" features that white anthropologists and other scholars were able to get away with calling the Ancient Egyptians "kacazoid"! The same insidious beliefs were placed on peoples in the Horn of Africa like Ethiopia and Somalia. Heck, even the Tutsi of Rwanda, Central Africa were said to have Arab ancestry! Of course all studies have proven such notions to be wrong but there are still people today who repeat the same fallacies.
Even those who don't believe that these peoples have kacazoid ancestry still try to link these peoples together because of their features. Hence people theorize that Tutsis originate from Ethiopia, even though most Ethiopians speak Afrasian languages while the Tutsi speak Niger-Congo languages. People say the Fulani originate from Egypt even though Egyptians are also Afrasian speakers while Fulanis are again Niger-Congo speakers.
As has been stated before, there is prehistoric rock paintings around the Western areas of the Sahara around Algeria, Niger, and Mauritania that depict peoples with the same features as Fulani, with the same type of cattle, and what appears to be the same ritual customs. Why is it so hard to accept that these paintings depicted Fulani ancestors and that Fulani have always lived in Western Africa??
It's time we do away with the ignorance people.
Posts: 26311 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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But you have to understand that the Fulanis are Elongated West Africans and they did not come from east Africa.
The Fulani don't come in a single phenotype. I thought your "photo" threads would have assisted you in determining this by now.
quote:King:
As for R1* yes it is a West Eurasian lineage but it is found at its highest frequency in the Uldeme of Cameroon and these cameroonians are broad looking Africans.
What evidence do you have that R1*-M173 in Northern Cameroonian populations is the result of back-migration?
quote:King:
This should give us a clue that **if** it was back migration that was the cause of R1* being found in the Uldeme that it was brought by West Eurasians that were still tropically Adapted people since the Uldeme are Broad west Africans and look like other broad west Africans.
I am glad you subsequently decided to use "if", which would be a big one, because moments ago, you passed it off as something of an absolute/established fact.
quote:King:
This does not really say much about the Fulani because this lineage does not have an effect on what the Fulani look like. The Fulani are still Elongated West Africans. And I can't speculate about the Wodaabe having R1* lineage I need valid proof. If the Fulani of Niger had R1* then I think that It would of been said in the study you posted on them.
You are probably aware by now, as we've discussed ad nauseam, that the Fulani are predominantly of E3a patrilineages; so, "suppose" the Fulani samples showed "R1*": then what?
quote:King:
No one is trying to make the Fulanis anything they are other then you who is trying to say that they are not really west African.
Never heard Fulani groups refer to themselves as Arabs; that's news to me.
The mtDNA examination, particularly the details of U5, along with H and V clusters, which we are told, were identified in small frequencies, should tell us something about historic interactions with "Berbers"/west Afrasan speakers.
Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
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I am getting "into" this subject passionately. And my main sources are from reading Francophone materials since the countries of the West Africa are mostly Francophone. I was just looking at a French Jewish blog that is dealing with the possible Jewish ancestry of the Peuls with an article written by a Peul comparing Fulani traditions and Judaism based upon oral traditions revealed by Amadou Hampate Ba.
Au cours d’un processus historique lointain non élucidé, les habitants de ce pays, quoique d’ethnies différentes (sans doute à dominante peule depuis leur arrivée massive dans le Fouta Toro, mais aussi sérères, wolofs, soninkés, etc.), en vinrent tous à pratiquer la langue peule, laquelle devint pour eux un facteur d’unité linguistique, voire culturelle2. Le "peuple toucouleur" n’est donc pas une ethnie au sens exact du mot mais un ensemble d’ethnies soudées par l’usage de la même langue et, au fil du temps, plus ou moins mêlées par voie de mariages. Les Toucouleurs eux-mêmes se désignent par le nom de halpoular : "ceux qui parlent le poular" (c’est-à-dire le peul). On les appelle aussi Foutanké : "ceux du Fouta".
Basically, Fuuta Toro was already occupied by Wolofs, Serers, Soninkes and when the Peuls came in from the outside these people adopted the Pulaar language and became Hal-Pulaar-en. The Tukulor are an amalgam of ethnic groups.
On my favorite Senegalese site to visit it details that the Peuls haves light skin, fine features, bah, bah, bah......(inside joke) On their forums they ask and argue constantly about the differences between Peul and hal-Pulaar-en.
I am convinced by reading Amadou Hampate Ba's untranslated materials that their is a connection between the Ancient Israelites and Ancient Egyptians. Some say the original Egyptians were Peul or vice versa.
I know I'm not going deep into the specifics here. I want to do that in another venue (hint).
Yes, I've seen the Saharan rock art sites. This is my favorite from Chad. http://ennedi.free.fr/ Go down to Pastoral and click Groupes Mixtes and see the Peuls. And they all praise the Fulani culture to the highest degree. I wish seriously that you really could read all these websites. Then you'd get my enthousiam.
What the Francophones do not have is the genetic date written in English. They are going by knowledge of culture and traditions. And I know the Sahara is the mother of Ancient Egypt and West Africa.
What the Africans have that I do not have is their knowledge of their traditionss, folk tales and beliefs.
See they are debating these issues everywhere in Black Francophonie. This is not just me.
and King as for being a man. In the West African shapeshifting tradition which was brought to Americas, theoretically a good magician could turn into a lower animal and vice versa. One could turn into a snake, dog, ram, or a bull. Is that what the ancient Egyptians were trying to say with their animal headed deities?
You seem to of had me confused with Reid I don't remember saying anything about you. I just asked you questions that you seem to of ignored.
But that aside what does any of this have to do with the genetics of the Fulani. I understand that the Fulanis believe in some of the myths about themselves. This does not make any of what they are saying true. This is done to explain away why the Fulanis are Elongated Africans I also know Supercar that their are Broad Fulani. This is good to know that they are having debates but none of this changes the Genetics of the Fulani people. They are still west African and not East African. I don't really understand why you are so excited about this. If the Fulani people knew the truth they would not need to debate about this. Fulani are "Purely" west African. You know this as much as anyone on this forum. If you can speak French why don't you go on this forum and tell them the truth.
Peace
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
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KING, I apologize. I confused you with Reid.
I don't go openly to the Francophone Blacks online because they fear African Americans will take over. I know this for a fact because they pretty much said so in many forums online.That's why they do not translate much of their writings into English. Many non-Americans think Americans only know English and African Americans really must be dumber than that.
The West African want all their vast knowledge kept to themselves. There are French speaking people on these English speaking boards who could have said all I've said much much much much much better than I could ever dream of doing, but they keep you ignorant. I could have kept this info to myself as well. Don't you get it?
I speak Spanish as well and you they play language games sometimes as well. Also, there is the religion problem. We have a difference of religion and that's a big problem today if you follow the news today. So, actually I've looked at sites because of my wanting to know about Africa which otherwise I would not have.
The Fulani are West African. The Fulani are the ancestors of many African americans. I believe that having 2 - 300 years of mixing on the slave plantations that my ancestors were probably Mende/Temne/Wolof/Fulbe based on DNA repots for African Americans. So, I consider myself learning my roots. I have seen their pics. Some Fulani are very Black and very Negroid even more than the average West African. I know that.
What I am saying is that with my knowledge of Judaism/Chrstianity and reading Fulani writings in French that in the far past some Fulani either came out of Israel/Egypt or there is some Saharan common culture to Peuls/Egyptians/Jews. You'd have to read the books. Mind you the Ancient Egyptians were Black. I've had White Jews and Israeli whisper to me that the original Jews were Black, but I can never quote 'em.
Posts: 1115 | From: GOD Bless the USA | Registered: May 2006
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posted
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Supercar: [QB] [QUOTE] ... The Oman collection in the present study is the only population outside of Africa in which R1*-M173 has been found. - Luis et al.
From what I've seen thus far, the Omani frequency of R1 consistently falls short of that present in Central Africa. While I can visualize the idea of its presence in Egypt being ancient, and perhaps as relics of ancient back-migration through the Levantine corridor [with derivatives like R1a1 being remnants of later back-flow into the Nile Valley], the idea that downstream mutation is needed, so as to reach the conclusion on the origins of R1 itself, isn't a strong presupposition, IMO. That downstream mutations like R1a and R1b exist in high frequencies in Eurasia [and rare in Africa], simply tells us, well... that Asia is where the split occurred. Now if it was somehow shown that the R1*-M173 in the Nile Valley or Oman is older than those found in the African interior, perhaps, this would be a relatively stronger case for its origins outside the continent! I am still open to seeing the different angles from which this matter of R1*-M173 presence in Africa is approached, which would increasingly lessen the "possibility" of its origins in Africa. QUOTE]
Well actually,
Carlos Flores1, 2, Nicole Maca-Meyer1, 2, Jose M. Larruga1, Vicente M. Cabrera1, Naif Karadsheh3 and Ana M. Gonzalez1
(1) Departamento de Genética, Facultad de Biología, Universidad de La Laguna, 38271 Tenerife, Spain (2) Unidad de Investigación, Hospital Universitario N.S. de Candelaria, 38010 Tenerife, Spain (3) Department of Biochemistry and Physiology, Faculty of Medicine, University of Jordan, Amman, Jordan
Received: 31 March 2005 Accepted: 20 June 2005 Published online: 2 September 2005
Abstract A high-resolution, Y-chromosome analysis using 46 binary markers has been carried out in two Jordan populations, one from the metropolitan area of Amman and the other from the Dead Sea, an area geographically isolated. Comparisons with neighboring populations showed that whereas the sample from Amman did not significantly differ from their Levantine neighbors, the Dead Sea sample clearly behaved as a genetic outlier in the region. Its high R1*-M173 frequency (40%) has until now only been found in northern Cameroonian samples. This contrasts with the comparatively low presence of J representatives (9%), which is the modal clade in Middle Eastern populations, including Amman. The Dead Sea sample also showed a high presence of E3b3a-M34 lineages (31%), which is only comparable to that found in Ethiopians. Although ancient and recent ties with sub-Saharan and eastern Africans cannot be discarded, it seems that isolation, strong drift, and/or founder effects are responsible for the anomalous Y-chromosome pool of this population. These results demonstrate that, at a fine scale, the smooth, continental clines detected for several Y-chromosome markers are often disrupted by genetically divergent populations. Keywords Human populations - Middle East - Jordan - Y-chromosome - Binary markers
Comparisons with neighboring populations showed that whereas the sample from Amman did not significantly differ from their Levantine neighbors, the Dead Sea sample clearly behaved as a genetic outlier in the region. Its high R1*-M173 frequency (40%) has until now only been found in northern Cameroonian samples.
I don't know what the original Jews were. We have the DNA of today's Jews. They say the Ethiopian Jews aren't really Jewish. yet, they know the most about the religion.
We all must wait for info to come out from all sectors.
The Fulani are West African. Some Ashkenazi Jews have the L2 mtDNA. Life is a mystery. We don't have the whole story. We may never have it.
Posts: 1115 | From: GOD Bless the USA | Registered: May 2006
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I respect what you say and I hope you have a good time finding out about your roots. If you are linked to the Fulani then you should be very proud because they are a beautiful people both broad and elongated. I hope you continue to keep us informed about what you learn about the Fulani. I have respected you in our debate and I would like to learn as much about the Fulani as you do. Keep the info coming. And it is great to debate someone without the name calling and ignorant remarks.
Peace
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
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If you are West Indian from Canada. And if especially Jamaica derived than we should have the same tribal roots. I'm claiming everybody Wolof, Soninke, Tuare, Hausa, Ibo, Ashanti, and anybody else in the mix including Nubians, Ethiopians etc from a link thousands of years back. I'm claiming Ancient Egypt. For real. I'm claiming Native Americans and Western Europeans and Jews. 400 years of slavery gives me all this. Since all humans are of African descent claim the world.
Peace Shalom Selam Paix Paz
Posts: 1115 | From: GOD Bless the USA | Registered: May 2006
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... The Oman collection in the present study is the only population outside of Africa in which R1*-M173 has been found. - Luis et al.
...Shango posts:
quote:Well actually,
Carlos Flores1, 2, Nicole Maca-Meyer1, 2, Jose M. Larruga1, Vicente M. Cabrera1, Naif Karadsheh3 and Ana M. Gonzalez1
...Its high R1*-M173 frequency (40%) has until now only been found in northern Cameroonian samples...
It would appear that Flores et al. were not aware of the Luis et al. study I cited. In any case, it is interesting that they should say this about R1*-M173, showing just how relatively rare it is. Frankly, I am not sure what bearings it has on my earlier comments pertaining to this matter.
Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
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posted
Enthusiasm is what kills detached scientific methodology and valid, credible conclusions that can stand up to objective investigation and criticism.
Saharan rock art can in no way support Arab or other non-west/saharan African origins for present day peoples of the south Sahara, Sahel, and Savannah displaying nearly identical phenotypes and practicing nearly identical culture/economy of their far ancestors.
Long story short, there were no Arabs or Jews in the neolithic Sahara or anywhere for another couple of thousand years. You can't have it both ways.
Yes, to make it very clear one more time, the Fulani history does posit incretion from Jews (that's why I wrote about Bajjemongo traditionally a descendent of Sinai/Palestine Jews - and yes we have the names of leading families who trekked from Cyrenaican Libya in the 2nd century CE and miscegenated with the indigenees who greeted them clear from Air to where the Senegal meets the Atlantic).
The Torodbe "class" specifically mentions even later Jewish incretion. We can read this in the history left by the founders of the Muslim Fulani (including Tukulor) emirates, and it's no compliment in Islam to be a descendent of Yaaqob/Israel instead of Ishmael or Esau. Hence some Muslim Fulani claim Esau not Yaaqob as patriarch and Uqba not Yakubu for Bajjemongo's first husband.
Don't believe me? Go on and ask your French Peuhl. No matter how deluded they may be from colonial artificial imposition of (red) Fulani/(black) Tukulor separateness
-- and I know the homeborn distinction between Fulbe and Fulbe from Haabe moms that has squat to do with outside imposition from colonialist anthropology --
they're not going to deny Bajjemongo, just finangle about who her first husband was, depending on how "strictly" Muslim they feel the need to represent.
However, genetics and archaeologydo not support Fulani history. Detached non-enthusiast scholarship at best sees Fulani as a Serer base with Amazigh incretion.
Judaeans who fled from Roman persecution by migrating west to the Maghreb then south to the Tuat oases and southwest to Air, the Niger parabula, the Hodh and Tagant, and Senegal/Mauritania were not Fulani (including all Fulbe speakers, yes Tukulors too), they established fullblown Jewish settlements all the way from small villages to complete kingdoms as we can read about in Arabic documents left by Sudanese/Sahelian historians in the "tarikhs" and various chronicles.
Who were the banu Warith of the Juddala Imazighen whom the Arab (Honehin) encountered when they first entered Mauritania?
What was their language?
How much does Pulaar/Fulbe, versus Wolof or Serere, owe that tongue?
quote:Originally posted by RedCow:
. . . . Yes, I've seen the Saharan rock art sites. This is my favorite from Chad. http://ennedi.free.fr/ Go down to Pastoral and click Groupes Mixtes and see the Peuls. And they all praise the Fulani culture to the highest degree. I wish seriously that you really could read all these websites. Then you'd get my enthousiam.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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There are many peoples in Africa, not just the Fulani, who claim descent from the Middle-East (the birthplace of most of their faiths).
It's time to seperate myth from the FACTS, truth from fiction.
And when the heck are we going to get back to the original topic of this thread--- the crook??
Posts: 26311 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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I'll have to check Bajjemongo offline. See no reference to her anywhere. There are neolithic paintings of "Whites" in the Sahara. Just hit a site that says the Jews in Cyrene also came from Egypt. They were partly Egyptian Jews.
Furthermore, the countries of northern North Africa have the most Tifinagh writing. Many times Eastern Tifinagh is written with Punic translations (right to left), the language of Phoenicia a few centuries before 1 A.D. Then Tifinagh which goes back to 1500 BC becomes influenced by Punic which is equally as old.
I can't read Arabic, Wolof, Pulaar etc. But, I will check stuff out offf line in French.
Be back in a long while.
Adios 'migo
Posts: 1115 | From: GOD Bless the USA | Registered: May 2006
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posted
^^If I am not mistaken, Bajjemongo is the ancestress claimed by many Fulani. Other than that, I don't know much about her. Can someone explain more about the geneological lengends about her.
Also, the topic of Neolithic "whites" in the Sahara have been brought up before by a Berber guy who used to post here.
I doubt depictions painted in slate white actually resemble 'white' European types.
Also Tifinagh is directly descended from a script the ancient Garamante people of Libya used and the Tuareg seem to be the keepers of such a script.
Posts: 26311 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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