posted
I've heard contradicting things. First whenever you type in Ahmose+Nubia into a search engine it talks about how Ahmose I crushed "Nubia" and brought more of it under Egyptians rule.
I've also heard though that Ahmose I USED "Nubian" soldiers in his campaign to re-take Egypt from the Hyksos. And that he lived in the Kush for a while as well.
So what was the 18th Dynasties connection to "Nubia"? That's my question.
Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
To make any progress on the questions you ask, you must stop repeating after the essentially Eurocentric concept of Nubia.
Once you fall for the "Nubia ruse" - all is lost, and there is no possibility of actually understanding the history of the Nile Valley.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by King_Scorpion: I've heard contradicting things. First whenever you type in Ahmose+Nubia into a search engine it talks about how Ahmose I crushed "Nubia" and brought more of it under Egyptians rule.
I've also heard though that Ahmose I USED "Nubian" soldiers in his campaign to re-take Egypt from the Hyksos. And that he lived in the Kush for a while as well.
So what was the 18th Dynasties connection to "Nubia"? That's my question.
Kamose
The 15th king of the 17th Dynasty was the son Queen Ahhotep I, and the brother of Ahmose I. Kamose went into war with the Hyksos with horse and chariot. His chariots were lighter and more maneuverable than in previous eras. He also had the advantage by having the Medjay as allies. These Nubian forces were ferocious hand to hand combatants that fought in the front lines. Kamose overcame the enemy at Nefrusy and moved into the oasis of Baharia. He then sailed up and down the Nile in search of traitors. When Kamose died, either of natural causes or of battle wounds, without an heir, his brother Ahmose I took the throne. Kamose was the last king of the 17th Dynasty. Ahmose I was to begin the 18th dynasty New Kingdom.
Carnarvon Tablet I: Inscription of Kamose
His majesty spoke in his palace to the council of nobles who were in his retinue: 'Let me understand what this strength of mine is for! (One) prince is in Avaris, another is in Ethiopia, and (here) I sit associated with an Asiatic and a Negro! Each man has his slice of this Egypt, dividing up the land with me . . . . No man can settle down, when despoiled by the taxes of the Asiatics. I will grapple with him, that I may rip open his belly! My wish is to save Egypt and to smite the Asiatic!
I went north because I was strong (enough) to attack the Asiatics through the command of Ammon, the just of counsels. My valiant army was in front of me like a blast of fire. The troops of the Madjoi were on the upper part of our cabins, to seek out the Asiatics and to push back their positions. East and west had their fat, and the army foraged for things everywhere. I set out a strong troop of the Madjoi, while I was on the day's patrol . . . to him in . . . Teti, the son of Pepi, within Nefrusi. I would not let him escape while I held back the Asiatics who had withstood Egypt. He made Nefrusi the nest of the Asiatics. I spent the night in my boat, with my heart happy.
When day broke, I was on him as if it were a falcon. When the time of breakfast had come, I attacked him. I broke down his walls, I killed his people, and I made his wife come down to the riverbank. My soldiers were as lions are, with their spoil, having serfs, cattle, milk, fat and honey, dividing up their property, their hearts gay.
From the Temple of Ahmose I, Abydos 1400 BC. Limestone slab with sculptured and painted relief showing the king performing a rite for the god. -- Manchester Museum
Ahmose I destroyed Avaris and put down rebellions within Egypt and Nubia, and then set about conducting the affairs of state with a keen and energetic mind. He reduced the status of the hereditary princes and counts of the various nomes, thus putting an end to the petty rivalries that had plagued the nation in the past.
Sources: Pritchard, James B. Ancient Near Eastern Texts. Princeton, 1969., pp.232-233. Carnarvon Tablet I. See also, Ancient Near Eastern Texts., pp. 554-555.
.
Posts: 1549 | From: California, USA | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
King Scorpion, the internet is a good resource but you cannot depend upon it giving you complete information about ancient Kmt. You should look in books about ancient Kmt.
Rasol is right about the Nubian issue. The term 'nubian' only means people of the gold. The people of ancient Kmt had specific names used for the poeple of the south and Nubian was not the name.
Anyway, the mainstream scholars who suggested a ''nubian'' origin for the 17th and 18th dyansties was Kent R. Weeks and James E. Harris. The following was based upon X-ray analysis and is published in their books:
X-Raying the Pharaohs (Paperback) by James E. Harris
X-Ray Atlas of the Royal Mummies (Hardcover) by James E. Harris, Edward F. Wente (Editor)
I recommened you try tracking down these book via inter-library loan because both are out-of-print.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged |
I. The following extracts from “The Oxford History of Ancient Egypt” (2000) may be helpful.
“The King of Kush is the name given in Egyptian sources to the king whose capital lay at Kerma. …Kerma is situated south of the third cataract, at the termination of the western oasis routes…. The King [of Kerma] was at his most powerful during the Classic Kerma phase, which corresponds roughly to the Second Intermediate Period [i.e., the period immediately before Ahmose]. Kamose [Ahmose’s immediate predecessor] may have succeeded in retaking Buhen, but only much later in the 18th Dynasty, after at least three more long campaigns, was Kerma itself conquered.” P. 208
“The presence of Kerma Nubians in the armies of Kamose and Ahmose is beyond dispute, but it is unclear whether they were there voluntarily or forcibly recruited during Kamose’s campaign.” P. 209
“Gold drew the Thebans and the Kerma Nubians together, first as allies but finally and inevitably as enemies.” P. 210
“The scene was set for war [between the Thebans, and the Hyksos Asiatics up north at Avaris]. The Theban kings had mastered their own region; Kamose had taken Buhen, so the route to the gold mines lay open to him; the Kerma Nubians had been driven south; and a battle fleet had been made ready. …The war must have lasted for at least thirty years….” P. 210
“Kamose first moved north from Thebes with his army and battle fleet, sending Nubian scouts ahead to reconnoiter the position of enemy garrisons.” P. 211
“Kerma Nubians served in the army at Avaris and Memphis and disposed of enough wealth to have substantial burials….” P. 216
Based on the foregoing, it appears to me that the Theban Egyptians and the Kerma Nubians/King of Kush were cautious allies at the time when, at the very beginning of the 18th Dynasty, the Hyksos Asiatics were forced to make a mass exodus out of Egypt, and to go beyond Gaza in Canaan, never to return to Egypt.
It is clear that in the military victories over the Hyksos that launched the fabulous 18th Dynasty, many of the victorious fighters were Kerma Nubians.
II. Let me note here, though slightly off subject, that the really neat thing about Ahmose is his name.
“Ahmose’s affiliations with the moon-god Iah [are] represented in the ‘Ah’ element in his name…. [I]nscriptions…describe Ahmose as ‘son of the moon-god, Iah’.” P. 220
Another way to spell “Iah”, obviously, is “Yah”.
So Yah is an old moon god from the early 18th dynasty. (Egypt had two other moon gods, who would be worshipped much longer than Yah.)
By the later 18th Dynasty, in the time of Akhenaten, Yah, who was one of the old Egyptian moon-gods, was no longer actively worshiped. Yet Yah was still remembered as being a god, and as being a moon-god.
It is well known that the Patriarchal narratives present Abraham as being from the two most prominent moon cult centers on the face of the planet: (1) ancient Ur, in southern Mesopotamia, and (2) Harran, on the upper Euphrates River. The Patriarchal narratives also present (i) Abraham as traveling to Egypt, (ii) Joseph as becoming Pharaoh’s all-powerful vizier in northern Egypt, with Joseph in effect becoming an Egyptian, as Joseph wears Egyptian clothes and marries the daughter of an Egyptian priest, and (iii) Jacob/“Israel” as moving all the Hebrews from Canaan into Egypt. So the Patriarchal narratives are big on (a) reacting to (while not embracing) a moon-god ambience, and (b) having a close connection of the Hebrews to Egypt.
One of the key names in the Patriarchal narratives for the Hebrew deity is YHWH. Though we are not sure how it was pronounced (and whether it was always considered too sacred to even pronounce, which certainly became the case later), YHWH could easily be Yah-Wah. The Hebrew author of the Patriarchal narratives knows so much about Egypt that is seems likely that he would have known a few basic Egyptian words relating to religion.
“Yah” literally means an old Egyptian moon-god, dating back 200 years to Ahmose (if the Patriarchal narratives are being composed in the mid-14th century BCE while Akhenaten is pharaoh). But Yah was no longer actively worshiped. So by slight extension, as of the mid-14th century BCE, “Yah” could easily be viewed as meaning “god” or “deity” (with no capital letter).
“Wah” is the Egyptian word for “one” or “the one and only”. Akhenaten’s most used name was Wah-n-Rah. “Rah” literally means the Egyptian sun-god, but Akhenaten viewed Aten as being the monotheistic manifestation of the old Egyptian sun-god. So “Rah” took on the connotation of meaning “God” at Amarna. “Wah-n-Rah” then means “the one and only God”. That is a perfect meaning for Akhenaten’s most-used name.
The phrase Yah-Wah” was never used as such in Egypt. But its meaning in Egyptian becomes clear on the above analysis. “Yah” means “god”, and “Wah” means “the one and only”, so “Yah-Wah”/YHWH means ‘the one and only God”.
The Hebrews later largely lost contact with Egypt and forgot the original meaning of the name YHWH. The Book of Exodus, many centuries later, tries to interpret YHWH as being a play on the Hebrew verb “to be”. Scholars agree that the linguistic analysis in Exodus as to the meaning of YHWH does not make sense in Hebrew, yet scholars have come to no consensus as to what the word (or letters or phrase) YHWH really means or where it came from.
But if we just think of old Ahmose, who united (temporarily) with the Kerma Nubians of Kush to re-establish Egypt and launch the fabulous New Kingdom, we can figure out where the name of the Hebrews’ deity originally came from. The Hebrews did not get their religious ideas from Egypt, and the Hebrews certainly were not worshipping an out-of-date polytheistic Egyptian moon god. But by the time of the Hebrews, “Yah” just meant “god” in Egypt, and “Yah-Wah” then would mean, in Egyptian, “the one and only God”.
It is impossible to conjure up a better meaning for the word YHWH as the Hebrews’ monotheistic deity.
posted
Good points here. The issue is one over ethnic, national and racial identity. "Nubians" as a term is synonymous with negro in the minds of early European Egyptologists. Therefore, they would often try to impose their own racial biases on the Egyptians by calling ALL people to the South of Egypt "Nubians". In many passages they would often substitute "negro" for "nubian" outright, further reinforcing their own racial biases onto Egyptian history. First off, Egyptians never called anyone specifically to the South of Egypt a "Nubian" and they certainly NEVER called group of people to the south as negro, ie black, especially as a term of racial derision. If anything, a "Nubian" was a HONORED title, reserved for the EGYPTIANS themselves. The pharoahs had many titles, a throne name, a birth name and a "golden" horus name, ie a "Nubian" name. The gods and women were often represented as the "golden" or "shining" ones, ie "Nubian". There was an important pre/early dynastic town in Upper Egypt that was associated with gold and an early site of Set worship, which was called Nubt. Set was often called Set of Nubti or Set the "Nubian" in modern grammar. Therefore, Nubian has nothing to do with sometimes dark skinned people to the south of Egypt. In addition, the word black in Egypt was Kem and we all know that the word Kem had anything but a bad connotation in Egypt, since that was part of the NAME of the country itself. Black was often associated with Gods or associated with power and therefore would NOT have been used the same way as Europeans try to portray it. There was no racial distinction between the Egyptians and those to the south and the names that the Egyptians used for people to the South had nothing to do with racial labels. They used clan, tribal or other names, none of which included "Nubian". There were many different peoples to the South of Egypt and they NEVER called themselves "Nubians". This is a term that came very LATE in the dynastic period, from FOREIGNERS who labelled people to the South as "Nubians", in association with the gold regions to the South of Egypt.
So, lets put this in perspective. The reason why the 18th dynasty is touted as a "Nubian" dynasty by Europeans is because Egypt was RUN BY FOREIGNERS for most of the 13 to 17th dynasties. If anything, these dynasties can be called "white" since the people running Egypt were more likely lighter skinned people, called Asiatics, from the North of Egypt. But these were FOREIGNERS, so you cannot treat them as some native WHITE dynasty that was overrun by some "Nubians". Egyptologists try to hide the REAL relationship between Egypt's neighbors to the North and South. The South, even though they often competed for resources and sometimes had princes who attempted to rebel and sieze the throne of Egypt, was the CLOSEST to Egypt, OFTEN coming to help her brother fend off the attacks from the Asiatics to the North. The North was ALWAYS seen as the PRIMARY threat to Egypt's survival, not just as a country, but as a culture and ethnicity that originated in the south and was RULED from the South. What has happend since the dynastic period only REINFORCES this point of view (the destruction of Egyptian culture and rule of Egypt from the North by Egyptians largely of FOREIGN blood). All the great dynasties of Egypt came from the South, because Egypt's CULTURE came from the South. Otherwise, Egypt's greatest dynasties would have been during the periods of FOREIGN rule by people from the North and West, but those dynasties are nothing more than an afterthought in most history books. The native rulers of Egypt had to seek shelter to the South of Egypt during the Second intermediate period because of the threat from the North. During this time, the ties between Egypt and the South grew stronger, since Egypt was a child of the South, ultimately and the NATIVE dynasties finally grew strong enough to overthrow the Hyksos. This is when the Medjay became prominent in Egypt as soldiers and policemen. But they were NOT called Nubians. Actually the ties between Egypt and Kerma (Kush) were already significant from the 13th dynasty, when Amenhemat came to power as a child of Ta Seti and established relations with people all the way down to the 5th cataract. After the Hyksos were overthrown, Ahmose had to deal with those "traitors" amongst the southerners who had been WOOED by the Hyksos and others AWAY from Egypt. EVERYONE knew that Egypt's strength CAME from the South and this is why so many tried to REMOVE the Southern lands as a significant factor in support of those opposing any FOREIGN rule in Egypt. This is also why the South was never really SUBJUGATED during Greek and Roman rule and why the capital of Egypt was moved to the North in order to make it easy to CONTROL the population. This is also why the religion was changed during the Greek and Roman period to FURTHER weaken the strength and will of the natives, especially those from the South. By the time of the Arab conquest of Egypt, MUCH of Egypt's native culture had been so weakened that it was NO MATCH for the onslaught of Islam, which FINALLY brought the total destruction of Egypt's cultural legacy and ties to the South, by bringing Islam AND introducing the slave trade amongst those people to the South of Egypt in the Sudan. The North of the Sudan is Islamic because of this and the South is Christian, mainly as a result of Britsh missionaries during the colonial period. It was a widely used tactic of the British to try and divide African peoples and set them against each other and the Islamic North versus the Southern Christian South is a legacy of this period of history.
Posts: 8899 | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by rasol: ^ We discussed this before King Scorpion.
To make any progress on the questions you ask, you must stop repeating after the essentially Eurocentric concept of Nubia.
Once you fall for the "Nubia ruse" - all is lost, and there is no possibility of actually understanding the history of the Nile Valley.
You know what I mean. Can you just answer the question...lol?
The above request is rather sad given that I, Wally, Ausar, AlTakruri, SuperCar, Doug and others have all answered this question - only to have it repeated by those who either cannot or will not understand the answer.
The key to understanding is to start thinking for yourself.
Supposed Africanist scholars who can only lamely repeat after Eurocentric scholarship that translated Nehesi to "negro" and while denying that Km.t means Black, ultimately consign themselves to living in a permanent state of confusion.
Six months from now, you'll be asking the same question. Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by ausar: King Scorpion, the internet is a good resource but you cannot depend upon it giving you complete information about ancient Kmt. You should look in books about ancient Kmt.
Rasol is right about the Nubian issue. The term 'nubian' only means people of the gold. The people of ancient Kmt had specific names used for the poeple of the south and Nubian was not the name.
Anyway, the mainstream scholars who suggested a ''nubian'' origin for the 17th and 18th dyansties was Kent R. Weeks and James E. Harris. The following was based upon X-ray analysis and is published in their books:
X-Raying the Pharaohs (Paperback) by James E. Harris
X-Ray Atlas of the Royal Mummies (Hardcover) by James E. Harris, Edward F. Wente (Editor)
I recommened you try tracking down these book via inter-library loan because both are out-of-print.
Oh I know. Which is why I asked here, because I know about the term "Nubia" and wanted a straight answer.
Good posts so far! Does anybody know of a good book on the New Dynasty and the expelling of the Hyksos?
Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by rasol: ^ We discussed this before King Scorpion.
To make any progress on the questions you ask, you must stop repeating after the essentially Eurocentric concept of Nubia.
Once you fall for the "Nubia ruse" - all is lost, and there is no possibility of actually understanding the history of the Nile Valley.
You know what I mean. Can you just answer the question...lol?
The above request is rather sad given that I, Wally, Ausar, AlTakruri, SuperCar, Doug and others have all answered this question - only to have it repeated by those who either cannot or will not understand the answer.
The key to understanding is to start thinking for yourself.
Supposed Africanist scholars who can only lamely repeat after Eurocentric scholarship that translated Nehesi to "negro" and while denying that Km.t means Black, ultimately consign themselves to living in a permanent state of confusion.
Six months from now, you'll be asking the same question.
Or did not read the thread.
You know what...why can't mods sticky topics? And what happened to the search button?
Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
^^^Ausar, he does have a point, the search button is not presently visible.. I did notice this some time before but thought maybe it was just me (my I.E.).
Also, realize that many of the great queens came from the south (aka nubia). Moreover, the legitamacy of the crown flowed through the peoples of the south. Rasol does have a point of not allowing yourself to get bamboozled by the twisted Eurocentric re-telling of Kmt's history.
Posts: 142 | From: University Height, NJ, USA | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by anacalypsis: ^^^Ausar, he does have a point, the search button is not presently visible.. I did notice this some time before but thought maybe it was just me (my I.E.).
Also, realize that many of the great queens came from the south (aka nubia). Moreover, the legitamacy of the crown flowed through the peoples of the south. Rasol does have a point of not allowing yourself to get bamboozled by the twisted Eurocentric re-telling of Kmt's history.
That's why I'm asking questions. Also Rasol, this may have been talked about before...but remember the old forum and its entire archive was wiped a little while back. The Hyksos invasion and eradication really interests me...and I know how shady and one-sided many internet sites are which is why I ask here (as well as other forums) and compare that with what I've read elsewhere.
Plus, I have a bad memory Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote: ^^^Ausar, he does have a point, the search button is not presently visible.. I did notice this some time before but thought maybe it was just me (my I.E.)
I don't have any control over this. Since I don't own or control this board I don't have much say over what functions and what doesn't. Send a private message to sammy about the disabled search function. To all the poster: I am not the owner of this board! Sammy is !!! Please ask him about the search and edit function.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I will only say this much on the enthusiast way off-topic of the Hebrew's deity and the pronunciation of that deity's name.
It has nothing to do with Pharoanic Egyptian language or Egyptian moon deities.
The Israelites of the Yemen never ceased speaking Hebrew amongst themselves.
Said Yemenites know and teach the enunciation to their little schoolchildren.
Anyone knowing how to conjugate the Hebrew verb "to be" through tenses can see its overly obvious relation to the "tetragrammaton."
A sober study of Egyptian language and history of the Middle and New Kingdoms combined with a realistic study of Hebrew/ Israelite/Judahite language, history, and related archaeology of both their lands in that timeframe, restores Occam's Razor from the misapplication of enthusiast speculation that bends it nearly to its snapping point.
Now to get to the real subject of the topic matter and sorry for replying to non-related offpoint distraction. The search function has been retracted but I'm not going to repeat what I wrote on the Hyksos and their imagined alliance with Kush (apparent based only on a single correspondance that was intercepted, in which Hyksos invite Keshli to a previously unconsidered joint attack on northern TaShmw) or the resistance movement led by three succesive TaShemu kings that ended the three way slice up rule over TaMeri and which factions of KM.t.yw (Nehesiu included) supported it or were subdued as result of it.
I will say the catch all category "Nubian" makes for a real mess in trying to understand the polities and politics of the Middle Nile Valley such that the actual relationship between TaShemu, TaSeti, Medjay/Intiu, and Kerma at the time of the end of the second intermediate period will remain a fool's game as long as "Nubia" is retained as a working concept applicable to that era.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: I will only say this much on the enthusiast way off-topic of the Hebrew's deity and the pronunciation of that deity's name.
It has nothing to do with Pharoanic Egyptian language or Egyptian moon deities.
The Israelites of the Yemen never ceased speaking Hebrew amongst themselves.
Said Yemenites know and teach the enunciation to their little schoolchildren.
Anyone knowing how to conjugate the Hebrew verb "to be" through tenses can see its overly obvious relation to the "tetragrammaton."
A sober study of Egyptian language and history of the Middle and New Kingdoms combined with a realistic study of Hebrew/ Israelite/Judahite language, history, and related archaeology of both their lands in that timeframe, restores Occam's Razor from the misapplication of enthusiast speculation that bends it nearly to its snapping point.
Now to get to the real subject of the topic matter and sorry for replying to non-related offpoint distraction. The search function has been retracted but I'm not going to repeat what I wrote on the Hyksos and their imagined alliance with Kush (apparent based only on a single correspondance that was intercepted, in which Hyksos invite Keshli to a previously unconsidered joint attack on northern TaShmw) or the resistance movement led by three succesive TaShemu kings that ended the three way slice up rule over TaMeri and which factions of KM.t.yw (Nehesiu included) supported it or were subdued as result of it.
I will say the catch all category "Nubian" makes for a real mess in trying to understand the polities and politics of the Middle Nile Valley such that the actual relationship between TaShemu, TaSeti, Medjay/Intiu, and Kerma at the time of the end of the second intermediate period will remain a fool's game as long as "Nubia" is retained as a working concept applicable to that era.
You see this is the good stuff. This is what always got me...because I've always been under the impression that there was a single unified nation south of Egypt (obviously I'm wrong though). What was it like just different Kushitic city-states? Also, can you point me to any books AlTakuri, or essays, anything that has what you're talking about in it?
Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
You wrote: “I will only say this much on the enthusiast way off-topic of the Hebrew's deity and the pronunciation of that deity's name. 1. It has nothing to do with Pharoanic Egyptian language or Egyptian moon deities. 2. The Israelites of the Yemen never ceased speaking Hebrew amongst themselves. 3. Said Yemenites know and teach the enunciation to their little schoolchildren. 4. Anyone knowing how to conjugate the Hebrew verb "to be" through tenses can see its overly obvious relation to the "tetragrammaton." A sober study of Egyptian language and history of the Middle and New Kingdoms combined with a realistic study of Hebrew/ Israelite/Judahite language, history, and related archaeology of both their lands in that timeframe, restores Occam's Razor from the misapplication of enthusiast speculation that bends it nearly to its snapping point."
1. You say that “YHWH” in Hebrew has no relation to “Yah-Wah” in Egyptian.
2. Does “Adon” in Hebrew have any relation to “Aton” in Egyptian?
3. Does “Amen” in Hebrew have any relation to “Amen” in Egyptian?
4. Does “Midyaniy” in Hebrew have any relation to “Mitanni” in Egyptian?
5. Does “Nahrim” in Hebrew have any relation to “Nahrima” in Egyptian?
6. Does P-L-S-T/‘Philistines’ in Hebrew have any relation to P-L-S-T/pelest in Egyptian?
7. Does P-R-Z-T/‘Perizzites’ in Hebrew have any relation to P-R-S-T/perestoy in Egyptian?
8. Does “Hebrew” in Hebrew have any relation to “habiru” in Egyptian?
9. Does “Sa-Rah” in Hebrew have any relation to “SA-RA” in Egyptian?
10.Does “I-Sa-Rah-El” in Hebrew have any relation to what “I-SA-RA-El” means in Egyptian (with “El” being a foreign word to the Egyptians, but the Egyptians would certainly have known the name of the best-known Canaanite god, El)?
11. Is the “RAH” in Ab-Rah-Am (Abraham) in Hebrew not “RAH” in Egyptian?
12. Is the “aac” in “Isaac” not “Akh” in Egyptian?
Akhenaten’s two main names feature the following four Egyptian words: (1) AKH; (2) ATEN; (3) WAH; (4) RAH. Note that all four of those Egyptian words are on the above list. AKH is in Isaac; ATEN is in Adon and adon and Adonai; Wah is in Yah-Wah/YHWH; and RAH is in Sa-Rah and I-Sa-Ra-El.
All of the above words have the same meaning in Hebrew and Egyptian. With the exception of “Amen”, all of the above words are in the Patriarchal narratives, which is one of the oldest parts of the Bible, and which I see as dating to the mid-14th century BCE, during Akhenaten's reign.
Weren’t the Hebrews the immediate neighbors of Egypt? Didn’t the Hebrews wander into super-rich Egypt when famine would strike modest Canaan? Why wouldn’t the Hebrews be expected to pick up some Egyptian words? Didn’t Egypt have profound impact on its neighbors?
The Hebrews did not borrow their religion ready-made from Egypt. But the Hebrews did borrow many religious WORDS from Egypt. All of the Hebrews’ words are borrowed. The vast majority of Hebrew words, especially non-religious words, are borrowed from the Canaanites. Thus Ugaritic and Moabite are very similar languages to Hebrew. But the Hebrews were the closest “Asiatics” to Egypt, and the Hebrews developed more profound religious views than other Canaanites. So it’s really not surprising that many of the Hebrews’ religious WORDS (not necessarily ideas) were borrowed from Egypt. All those words are coming either from Canaan or from Egypt. Arabic came along a lot later than Hebrew.
I see the above 12 key words, many of which are religious, as being borrowed into Hebrew from Egypt. Jews, Christians and Muslims should be proud, on my view, that some of our key religious vocabulary comes from the fabulous 18th Dynasty of fabulous Egypt of fabulous Africa.
posted
^^Dude, I don't think Egyptian Ayah or Yah has anything to do with the Abraham or any Biblical figures. If anything, the Egyptian god corresponds more with the Ethiopian god by the same name and perhaps even pre-Islamic Somali beliefs (Somali name of the moon is Dayah).
Getting back to the issue at hand, Rasol is correct that this issue has been discussed before.
"Nubians" consisted of various groups of peoples and the Egyptians never used the term which was coined by Romans to describe the peoples south of Egypt.
The 'Nubian' allies of Ahmose were the Medjay nomads. The 'Nubian' enemies of Ahmose were the Kushites of Kerma. Which is why "Nubia" has become a confusing Eurocentric construct-- Ahmose fought against "Nubians" aided by "Nubians".
Carnarvon Tablet I: Inscription of Kamose
His majesty spoke in his palace to the council of nobles who were in his retinue: 'Let me understand what this strength of mine is for! (One) prince is in Avaris, another is in Ethiopia, and (here) I sit associated with an Asiatic and a Negro! Each man has his slice of this Egypt, dividing up the land with me... No man can settle down, when despoiled by the taxes of the Asiatics. I will grapple with him, that I may rip open his belly! My wish is to save Egypt and to smite the Asiatic!
^^Of course the excerpt above uses the Breasted translation or rather mistranslation of the Egyptian word Nhsi to mean "negroe" when we all know by now it means no such thing. Posts: 26311 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
1. I agree that that ancient Egyptians did not use the term "Nubia".
2. The ancient Egyptians did, however, use the term "Kush". “The King of Kush is the name given in Egyptian sources to the king whose capital lay at Kerma." (Note that the Hebrew Bible never uses the term "Nubia", but often uses the term "Kushite". Same.)
3. During the very beginning of the 18th Dynasty, when Kamose and Ahmose were operating, the King of Kush, south of the 2nd cataract, was at the height of his powers. "The King [of Kerma] was at his most powerful during the Classic Kerma phase, which corresponds roughly to the Second Intermediate Period [i.e., the period immediately before Ahmose]."
4. Ahmose did not attempt to defeat the King of Kush. "Kamose [Ahmose’s immediate predecessor] may have succeeded in retaking Buhen, but only much later in the 18th Dynasty, after at least three more long campaigns, was Kerma itself conquered.”
5. Based on what you cite, and on what we know happened, it is obvious that Kamose and Ahmose put first priority on kicking the Asiatic Hyksos out of Egypt. It took a long time to accomplish that, and much inconclusive fighting. "The war must have lasted for at least thirty years….” But in the end, Ahmose was able to force a mass exodus of the Asiatic Hyksos out of Egypt in the mid-16th century BCE, with the Asiatic Hyksos never to return to Egypt.
6. We know that Africans south of the 2nd cataract were an important component of Ahmose's armies. “The presence of Kerma Nubians in the armies of Kamose and Ahmose is beyond dispute, but it is unclear whether they were there voluntarily or forcibly recruited during Kamose’s campaign.” “Kamose first moved north from Thebes with his army and battle fleet, sending Nubian scouts ahead to reconnoiter the position of enemy garrisons.” “Kerma Nubians served in the army at Avaris and Memphis and disposed of enough wealth to have substantial burials….”
One may decry the use of the word "Nubians" in the above account quoted from "The Oxford History of Ancient Egypt" in my prior post, but we can simply substitute for the controversial term "Nubians" the phrase "Africans from south of the 2nd cataract".
7. Although you state that Kerma was the enemy of Ahmose, note that the above quotes insist that warriors from Kerma were prominent in Ahmose's troops.
8. You claim in particular: "The 'Nubian' allies of Ahmose were the Medjay nomads. The 'Nubian' enemies of Ahmose were the Kushites of Kerma."
That seems a little too neat for me. The situation in Ahmose's time was probably more fluid than that. Note that Kushite warriors from Kerma seem to have been an important component of Ahmose's fighters.
The combatants in these military conflicts may have been quite small in number. So a fairly small number of top fighters from Kerma in Kush might have been very important to Ahmose's military campaigning.
9. You state: "Ahmose fought against 'Nubians' aided by 'Nubians'."
Yes, I would agree with that. But I am not so sure that all the Kushites at Kerma were enemies of Ahmose, not at this stage.
It seems more likely to me that at this point in the game, there may have been tacit agreement by many of the various tribes of Africans south of the 2nd cataract that it was a good thing for Ahmose to be kicking the Asiatic Hyksos out of Egypt. Not so surprisingly, once that task had been accomplished, however, there no longer was any necessary continuity of interest between the Theban Africans and the various groups of Africans south of the 2nd cataract. Having liberated northern Egypt from the Asiatic Hyksos, Ahmose's successors, the Theban Africans of the 18th Dynasty, then slowly began to try to bring the various African tribes south of the 2nd cataract under the hegemony of the Theban Africans. That was a very long process. It is likely that during that lengthy process, many alliances were made by the Theban Africans with various tribes of Africans south of the 2nd cataract, and then those alliances were broken when it suited the further interests of the Theban Africans.
10. The bottom line is that by the time we get to the mid-18th Dynasty, the Theban Africans have won, for better or worse. From the mid-18th Dynasty through the 20th Dynasty, we have portrait after portrait of Egypt's "traditional enemies", commissioned by the Theban Africans. Except for Horemhab (including the images he commissioned during Tut's reign), and with the Hittites not being added until the 14th century BCE, there is a remarkable consistency in who are portrayed as being Egypt's "traditional enemies":
(a) Africans from south of the 2nd cataract.
(b) Hurrians/Syrians, and beginning in the 14th century BCE, Hittites. By contrast, southern Canaanites, and Amorites (northern Canaanites), are usually not included in Egypt's "traditional enemies", except, as noted, by Horemhab (who hated Akhenaten's personal bodyguards, who prominently included southern Canaanites and at least one actual Hebrew).
Those "traditional enemies" of Egypt are always shown in two, very traditional ways. First, they are shown as being hunted down like animals by pharaoh, or as being smited by pharaoh. Secondly, individuals are shown as being bound, very painfully and obviously, by the elbows. We have image after image of those traditional views of Egypt's "traditional enemies" from the mid-18th Dynasty through the 20th Dynasty. Time after time we see an African from south of the 2nd cataract, and an Asiatic who is a Syrian (or Hurrian), bound by the elbows, painfully and obviously. All those disturbing images are telling us something.
11. I am not saying that the Africans south of the 2nd cataract were monolithic, or that they did not contribute greatly to Egypt's greatness, at many different times in history. All I am saying is that from the mid-18th Dynasty through the 20th Dynasty, during Egypt's greatest period, Africans from south of the 2nd cataract were routinely viewed as being one of Egypt's two "traditional enemies".
12. Akhenaten is a rare, refreshing change of pace in that regard. Akhenaten depended for his personal survival on personal bodyguards made up of Africans from south of the 2nd cataract, and southern Canaanites, including at least one actual Hebrew (who was probably the real world version of Jacob/"Israel"). Only Akhenaten had personal bodyguards like that, because only Akhenaten could not rely on Theban Africans, all of whom were likely to harbor a secret commitment to the god Amen, and as such could not be counted upon to safeguard anti-Aten crusader Akhenaten.
So only in Amarna, excluding Horemhab's commissions during Tut's reign, do we see an admiration by the Theban Africans, or at least by pharaoh Akhenaten, both of Africans from south of the 2nd cataract, and of southern Canaanites/Hebrews. Thus in this way, as in his views of women and religious, Akhenaten was amazingly "progressive", being much closer to our modern views on these matters than any other pharaoh, especially the other pharaohs from the mid-18th Dynasty through the 20th Dynasty.
As always, one key to understanding these issues is to look at the images coming out of the 18th Dynasty, including the extraordinary Amarna period, and the 19th and 20th Dynasties. Repeated imagery is very powerful testimony regarding what is going on. From this repeated imagery, we can tell whom the Theban Africans viewed as being Egypt's "traditional enemies", for better or worse.
Here is Harris and Weeks on Pharaoh Seqenenre a.k.a, Tao the Brave (initiator of the campaign against the Hyksos)
quote:His entire facial complex, in fact, is so different from other pharaohs (it is closest to that of his son Ahmose) that he could be fitted more easily into the series of Nubian and Old Kingdom Giza skulls than into that of later Egyptian kings. Various scholars in the past have proposed a Nubian-that is, non-Egyptian-origin for Seqenenre and his family, and his facial features suggest this might indeed be true."
- Weeks and Harris. X-Raying the Pharaohs (1973)
^Hence, some of the confusion. The only thing that this pioneer's features indicate is a continuation of indigenous traits in Upper Egypt (he was from Thebes). Make note that he isn't dissimilar (according to Harris and Weeks) from neither so-called "Nubian" OR early Giza (Northern Egypt) remains. He is the progenitor of the 18th dynasty.
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
![[Cool]](cool.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
![[Embarrassed]](redface.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic