My knowledge of ancient Egypt is exceedingly small. I would never argue points that appear to be well established for this reason.
I suspect that the pyramids are a little older than orthodoxy suggests. This would dovetail better with the fact that records don't exist and with the reason I believe they were made. It also fits a little more closely with the geologists' belief that this area dried up around 3000BC and that radio-carbon dating consistently puts it a little older.
I seriously doubt that the oldest pyramids were intended as tombs. It still seems a near certainty that they had water on these sites even if they had to lift it manually to get it where it was needed. This would imply either a canal or underground sources.
Any theory that is proposed that has large numbers of men toiling in the desert sun using muscle power alone to build these is probably wrong.
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^Certainly man-power along wouldn't suffice and there had to be some sort of ingenuity involved.
As for the theory of the French architect, the only way it could be verified is if some non-invasive way to scan the internal structure of the pyramids, which there is though the Egyptian government is not doing that anytime soon.
Also, the pyramids had to be built as tombs for the pharoahs who were concieved of as gods. If not, what purpose do YOU think the pyramids were built for?
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I believe the pyramids were first and foremost a message to men that we are more than a tool for scratching in the Earth. Even if they had functional purposes such as astronomical, hydraulic, military,or funerary these would not be the primary motivation for the construction. The Great Pyramid hardly needs to be of its size for any practical purposes of ancient peoples.
These were built at the very beginning of written language and herein possibly lies a clue as to their true purpose. Before written language knowledge had to be passed between generations orally. This would be a cumbersome means since students would have to seek teachers and the lessons might degrade as they are passed down and new learning is added. Long before this era there would be far more learning and tradition than a single man might know so it would have to be divided into the various branches of knowledge. This would simply serve to amplify the difficulties of obtaining an education.
With the arival of the written word it would be apparent that all human endeavors were about to be stood on their ear. It would be obvious that man would come to dominate all aspects of the enviroment and that there was little that would be out of his reach. The pyramid is a warning againt hubris and vanity. It is a statement that the human spirit can accomplish anything when focused and that it is the individual who must strive, yet the individual is a part of the whole.
The Pyramid is a warning that we can lose everything if we give into hedonism as our wealth increases along with our vanity.
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^LOL I think you project too much your personal views into why the pyramids were constructed.
Indeed, there was a very important message in the construcion of the pyramid but I believe this message was ingrained in the very beliefs of the peoples who built it at that time.
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There is a large fissure more than 70' long parallel to and nearly centered on the north side of the Great Pyramid. It is very deep and nearly ten feet wide at the top. It becomes quite narrow near the bottom and was excavated by Vyse in 1837 until it became to narrow to work. Several authors have suggested there was initially a structure above this because of the way the stones lie at the entrance which is just above this area.
In Operations Carried on at Pyramids of Giza -1837 it is stated on page 131, "...and we are given to understand by Herodotus, that it was not an unusual custom for the Egyptians to excavate until they met with a fissure in the rock by which a supply of water might be obtained, without the trouble of cutting a canal."
It was also stated that according to ancient reports that stones were moved up to the pyramids a bowshot at a time (~300'). This would imply a mechanical means and be consistent with the operation of a counterweight.
It's possible I was a little too quick to give this up again.
The geology of this region has led me in some unpredictable directions which could prove to have profound implications if true. They are probably unlikely to be true but there may be little reported progress for a while.
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A major fault zone lies along the Nile and Red Sea. This is a transform (sliding) boundary but very nearby is a divergent (expanding) boundary only a few miles to the south.
Hot springs and geysers are associated with the edges of major plates and are normally found along rivers. Yellowstone in the US is an exception and while most of the activity lies along the Yellostone River there is no plate edge in the vicinity. It is believed the energy for the geysers is supplied by magma which is just under a thin section of the Earth's crust.
The Iceland geysers lie along the divergent mid-atlantic ridge while the New Zealand geysers are in a subduction zone where one plate slides under another.
It would seem improbable that the west side of the Nile from the delta to Fayuum might have contained numerous hot springs, geysers, fumerols, etc without someone having noticed it but there seems at least a remote chance. The satelite images of Yellowstone do vaguely resemble the area of the pyramids and the differences might be explained by the terrain, higher precipitation, and lack of windblown sand.
One major feature of hot springs is the way in which they can deposit rock, called travertine, at a rapid rate. This material can form in terraces where there is a steep cliff with layers of rock of varying thickness.
Travertine is nearly chemically identical to stalagmites and stalagtites. The rate at which it deposits rock appears to be proportional to the amount of dissolved carbon dioxide.
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The Manzala Rift lies right under the Nile delta which starts right at the Giza Plateau.
The Earth's crust is a mere 30 KM thick in this area and it's believed that this region is in transition to becoming a divergent plate boundary which will eventually break Africa away from Asia and leaving Africa's Horn as a large island in this ocean.
Magma can intrude up into the crust which could provide the heat for hot springs and geysers.
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I'm not finding much encouragement from anyone (including an expert on the subject) for the existence of geysers. However here's an excellent description of the forces that shaped the Fayuum and the Nile river as well as most of Egypt itself:
Although the Faiyum is not a spring-fed oasis, all accounts of the Western Desert speculate upon the aquifer, which provided the water essential to human habitation in the other great depressions.
The aquifer is held in the Nubian and other Cretaceous sandstones, which are exposed in the south, but lie between the Palaeozoic and Eocene under the desert to the north. The amount of water is incredible. Sampsell expresses it as the equivalent of 600 years of Nile discharge. The water originates in the wet areas to the south of Egypt, and migrates northwards through the permeable strata.
Popular accounts talk about the aquifer as if it were a single underground river, looping its way around the oases, on its way to the sea. There is no rationale for this pleasant conceit. Said proposes that the water, while widely spread, is held in the series of high rimmed basins revealed by oil exploration. Unfortunately, tests show the water to be of ancient origin, and susceptible to depletion."
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...might lead one to speculate that these are a sort of incantation invoked to warn the Gods in heaven to take the ka of the recently departed king seriously. They are simply made aware that he is not to be trifled with so that he can take his rightful place among his equals.
This might explain the increasing numbers of gods as time went by.
Min was one of the earliest gods and is usually depicted standing on a block with an arm raising a pyramid. His fertility is depicted as an erection and when his other arm is shown it is holding same. He has high plumes on his crown. The Goddess Nut (sky god)is said in one passage of the texts to have been impregnated with fury.
The seemingly sole plausible source for significant water pressure is cold water geysers. These are caused by a process very similar to hot water geysers but rather than decreased pressure cause by boiling leading to more boiling it is decreased pressure caused by water "fizzing up" leading to more bubbles forming below. These can spray large amounts of water and spray very often for long periods.
The origin of the water does appear to be in a volcanic region far to the south.
The Giza Plateau is a fascinating and extremely complicated geology. The whole region of Africa is interesting hydraulically. The Libyan government has a "man-made River Project" which is a massive undertaking to divert large amounts of ancient water from far west of the Pyramids for use in their coastal cities and for desert irrigation.
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I've been reading the Pyramid Texts and am convinced that these date back to the earliest times and many pre-date the pyramids. There are a lot of interesting passages that can be interpreted a few different ways. If anyone's interested here's a link;
I've also been reading Breasted's work from 1906 which seems to be one of the most scholarly on the actual known facts about the ancients. Here's a link for it.
This is a little difficult to navigate but is worth the trouble for those interested in the basis of modern egyptology.
Right from the beginning the ancients named the years in the records. This name was based on important events of the year and always ended in a measurement in cubits, palms, and fingers. This number was usually from a few inches to about twelve feet and decreased over time. It is far too low for Nile flooding and too high for deposition from flooding.
There are no viable theories for the meaning of this number that was so important that years were expressed in it. I wonder if it might have been pressure of something expressed in a column of water.
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On the Giza Plateau itself there were some very remarkable phenomena. Water would come up out of the Earth itself. This was water which contained large amounts of carbon dioxide from the Jebel Umm Arafeib vulcano in central Sudan and would "fizz" up. By about 3500BC they learned that if they dug a hole to one of the caverns containing water that it would creat a geyser. Osiris and Isis were the first couple of geysers. Isis means "stone seat" and was a reference to the stone already deposited by the water flow. Osiris was placed in a box which was filled with lead by Set probably in an attempt to control the water which failed. Osiris had to be reassembled. The eye of Horus was the actual opening through which the water flowed. The two "plumes" were represented in Min's and Atum's crowns and while Atum holds a flail, it is a pyramid which Min raises. Min may be Narmer's ka or someone elses but he is the builder of the Great Pyramid. It was built with water pressure from the water. This was so important to the ancients and their economy that they named their years after it as soon as writing was invented. The cubits/ palms/ fingers measurements were probably the height it rose on a measuring rod as seen from a specific vantage.
If you suspend your disbelief for a moment and read this utterance you'll be in for a surprise. I believe these "poems" were warnings to the Gods to take the new god seriously. This was the dearly departed pharoah who would have to storm his way into heaven. This specific "poem" believe was written for Min:
Utterance 317.
>507a. To say: N. is come forth to-day at the head of the inundation of the flood.
He's will be "launched" at the pyramid during an eruption.
>507b. N. is a crocodile god, with green feather, with vigilant countenance, with forehead erect;
It's not difficult to imagine how the ancients would see such a marvel.
>507c. effervescent, proceeding from leg and tail of the Great (One) who is in splendour.
Little need be said here.
>508a. N. is come to his watercourses, which are in the land of the flood, in Mḥ.t-wr.t,
The pyramids were surrounded by walls and means to distribute this water. These "winding watercourses probably included "Lake Senezemib" which was a 1200 cubit lake built for a highly regarded scribe.
>508b. to the places of satisfaction, with green fields, which are in the horizon,
It was to the west that the ancients went when they died. It was in the land of the horizon since there was no horizon down in the valley.
>509a. that N. may make green the herbs in both lands of the horizon,
Both lands? ...probably to the south.
Quite possibly the crops grown "on the horizon" were the most valuable crops. These were the medicinal herbs and spices.
>509b. (and) that N. may bring the green to the great eye which is in the midst of the field.
Horus. This is an incantation to assure that the water continues to flow (or return if seasonal)
>509c. N. takes his throne which is in the horizon;
Min "lives" on the horizon.
>510a. N. appears as Sebek, son of Neit;
Sebek is obvious, Neit, less so.
>510b. N. eats with his mouth, N. urinates, N. cohabits with his phallus;
That's old Min for ya'. He is seriously alive and vital.
>510c. N. is lord of semen, which women receive from their husband.
...not to mention, powerful.
>510d. wherever N. wishes, according to the desire of his heart,
ditto.
I still believe the pyramids were primarily built as a message to the future. They are a warning about hubris and taking ourselves so seriously. The ancients were well aware of the changes which would be wrought by the introduction of writing.
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Horapollo was one of the last priests of the ancient Egyptians but lived many years after the pyramids were built. His surviving writing is primarily on the interpretation of heiroglyphics which is mostly in complete error so he gets little respect from most egyptologists apparently.
He had a very fascinating take on the meaning of three water jugs:
"Egyptian language NOUN, and which, when interpreted, signifies New, they sometimes pourtray a LION, and sometimes THREE LARGE WATERPOTS, and at other times HEAVEN AND EARTH GUSHING FORTH WITH WATER. And they depict a LION, because when the sun is in Leo it augments the rising of the Nile, so that oftentimes while the sun remains in that sign of the zodiac, half of the new water [Noun, the entire inundation?] is supplied; and hence it is, that those who anciently presided over the sacred works, have made the spouts [?] and passages of the sacred fountains in the form of lions. Wherefore, even to this day in prayer for an abundant inundation - - - - - - - - - And they depict THREE WATERPOTS, or HEAVEN AND EARTH GUSHING FORTH WITH WATER, because they make a waterpot like a heart having a tongue,—like a heart, because in their opinion the heart is the ruling member of the body, as the Nile is the ruler of Egypt, and like [a heart with?] a tongue, because it is always in a state of humidity, and they call it the producer of existence. And they depict three waterpots, and neither more nor less, because according to them there is a triple cause of the inundation. And they depict one for the Egyptian soil, as being of itself productive of water; and another for the ocean, for at the period of the inundation,water flows up from it into Egypt; and the third to symbolise the rains which prevail in the southern parts of Ethiopia at the time of the rising of the Nile. Now that Egypt generates the water, we may deduce from this, that in the rest of the earth the inundations of the rivers take place in the winter, and are caused by frequent rains; but the country of the Egyptians alone, inasmuch as it is situated in the middle of the habitable world, like that part of the eye, which is called the pupil, of itself causes the rising of the Nile in summer."
He is saying here that the ancioents believed that water flowed up out of the Earth. Obviously he could be mistaken about this but consider the implications if correct. First and foremost is the logical assumption that the ancients believed this based on the fact that they saw water rising from the Earth. If so then it's most improbable that this occured within the Nile valley. This was a canyon, then a fiord and finally a deep riverbed hundreds of feet deep. This is hardly the type of terrain which is prone to the developement of caves or caverns. Even if I'm correct that the ancient Nile actually flowed west of Giza there the deep bedrock in this area would have been far too much below the water table for the formation of caverns.
This would seem to imply the Horapollo thinks the ancients saw water coming from the ground at higher elevations or "on the horizon". Giza might well have been the site of such events.
A further implication of his observation is that this water flow was seasonal and coincided with the inundation of the valley.
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It's curious that the best detail drawing I can find of the grotto in the Great Pyramid appears to show the opening below the construction of the pyramid as exactly seven cubits and hole inside of it as a reasonable approximation of 3 cubits.
Obviously the Eye of Horus came about after Osiris, but if he can be resurrected then maybe he can be moved as well.
OF PROTECTING THE BOAT OF RA (From the Papyrus of Nu, British Museum, No. 10,477, sheet 97)
The chapter of protecting the boat of Ra. "O thou that cleavest the water as thou comest forth from the stream and dost sit upon thy place in thy boat, sit thou upon thy place in thy boat as thou goest forth to thy station of yesterday, and do thou join the Osiris, the overseer of the palace, the chancellor-in-chief, Nu, triumphant, the perfect Khu, unto thy mariners, and let thy strength be his strength.
"Hail, Ra, in thy name of Ra, if thou dost pass by the eye of seven cubits, which hath a pupil of three cubits, then verily do thou strengthen the Osiris, Nu, triumphant, the perfect Khu,--let him be among--thy mariners, and let thy strength be his strength. Hail, Ra, in thy name of Ra, if thou dost pass by those who are overturned in death, then verily do thou make the Osiris, Nu, triumphant, the perfect soul, to stand up upon his feet, and may thy strength be his strength. Hail, Ra, in thy name of Ra, if the hidden things of the underworld are opened unto thee and thou dost gratify (?) the heart of the cycle of thy gods, then verily do thou grant joy of heart unto the. chancellor-in-chief, Nu, triumphant, and let thy strength be his strength. Thy members, O Ra, are established by--this--Chapter (?)."
--This Chapter--shall be recited over a bandlet of the fine linen of kings--upon which--it hath been written with Anti, which shall be laid upon the neck of the perfect Khu on the way of the burial...
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From the Papyrus of Nebseni, Brit. Mus. No. 9900, Sheet 14, ll. 16ff.)
"He who was bidden to rule among the gods is the son of Isis (Horus), who was appointed to rule in the room of his father Osiris.
"As concerning [the words] 'day of the union of earth with earth,' they have reference to the union of earth with earth in the coffin of Osiris, the Soul that liveth in Hensu, the giver of meat and drink, the destroyer of wrong, and the guide to the everlasting paths."
Hensu is Herakleopolis at the Fayuum but the Egyptians often had municipal "sponsors" for their Gods. Osiris may have been from Hensu when he walked the Earth as a "mortal God".
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I'm not sure it was Giza, but there was some grotto with "naughty" grafitti depicting a man bent over about to get 'penetrated'.
I don't mean to sound perverted, but I heard such grafitti represented the light-hearted veiws on sex the Egyptian had and was made to tease or mock their contractor or something.
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: I'm not sure it was Giza, but there was some grotto with "naughty" grafitti depicting a man bent over about to get 'penetrated'.
I don't mean to sound perverted, but I heard such grafitti represented the light-hearted veiws on sex the Egyptian had and was made to tease or mock their contractor or something.
I'm not familiar with the grafitti you mention but there was an ancient custom of not releasing their captives until they had been "impregnated". Apparently the ceremony was designed to discourage them from attacking again.
One would expect it might be effective.
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It's strange that so many Westerners still speculate on how exactly the pyramids were built. Can't they simply just ask the Egyptians themselves how their ancestors built the pyramids? Archaeologists have been able to reconstruct the erection of Easter Island's moai by consulting the islanders' oral legends. Maybe the Egyptians have similar orally transmitted stories about the pyramids' construction that could aid us.
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Most of what has been passed down has been discounted by archaeologists. There is some reason that these oral legends might be suspect since there have apparently been a series of catastrophes which decimated the population. Oral traditions can easily be lost or distorted under such conditions.
It's of great interest to me that Herodotus was told that the pyramids were built with "great machines". He was also told that a canal was built to the pyramid site and that the ancients preferred to dig to find water because it was easier than building canals.
Manetho said that the stones were moved up to the pyramids a bowshot (~300 feet) at a time.
Horappollo implied that the ancients believed that water came up out of the ground.
It would seem a great deal of the physical evidence would support such contentions. Even the existence of causeways is difficult to explain without copious amounts of water being present. The location and shape of the quarry says that the primary means for lifting stone was not ramps.
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1524b. His year is calculated for him; his hour knows him.
1524c. N. is known by his year which is with him;
1524d. his hour which is with him knows him.
This is from utterance 577.
It would seem to be a reference to the "naming of the years" by means of cubits, spans, and fingers ala the Palermo Stone. This seems to be one of the oldest of the utterances as well. I'd guess it predates the Great Pyramid.
Here's a quick link;
[www.wyldwytch.com]
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Perhaps all the clues are being overlooked because they are right out in plain sight. Maybe the entire belief system was based on the slowly fading water pressure at Giza. Perhaps the pyramid itself is just the largest X on the planet to mark the most important spot that exists; the House of Osiris over the Eye of Horus (r).
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Utterance 690 seems to describe the eruption of a cold water geyser.
2109. The sky trembles, the earth quakes before the god, before N.
2110a. N. [is not enveloped] by the earth;
2110b. ’Iḫ.t-wt.t, thou art not enveloped by the earth.
2110c. Thy fame is by day; thy fear is by night, as a god, lord of f ear.
2110d. Thou commandest the gods like the mighty one, chief of the mighty.
2111. [O] Osiris, the overflow comes, the inundation hastens, Geb groans.
2112a. I have pitied thee with pity; I have smitten him who acted with evil (intent) against thee;
2112b. that thou mayest live, that thou mayest raise thyself up because of thy strength.
2113. O N., [the inundation comes 1, [the overflow hastens], Geb [groans].
2114a. Exult in the divine efflux which is in thee; let thy heart live;
214b. thy divine limbs are in good condition; loosen thy bindings.
2115a. Horus comes to thee, N.; he does for thee that which he did for his father Osiris,
"’Iḫ.t-wt.t" might be the "yeast gas" coming out of solution.
"’Iḫ.t-wt.t", thy fame is by day thy fear is by night. By day this would be a major topic of interest by most educated people. At night the wind often slows when solar heating stops. This would allow possibly deadly concentrations of "yeast gas" to accumulate especially in lower lying areas.
It appears as well in utt 436:
788b. the efflux goes forth from the god, the secretion which comes out of Osiris,
788c. so that thy hands may be washed, so that thine ears may be open.
789a. This power is spiritualized by means of its soul.
789b. Wash thyself for thy ka washes itself. Let thy ka be seated,
789c. that it may eat bread with thee, without ceasing eternally.
790a. Thy going is as a successor of Osiris;
790b. thy face is before thee; thine homage is before thee.
791a. It is agreeable to thy nose on account of the smell of ’Iḫ.t-wt.t;
791b. for thy feet when they hit thy feast (carry thee to thy feast);
791c. for thy teeth, for thy finger-nails when thy bread is broken.
Again this is mentioned with the efflux from Osiris.
From utt 221;
197e. make thou that his ‘bȝ-sceptre be at the head of the living; make thou that his śḫm-sceptre be at the head of the spirits;
197f. make thou that his blade be firm against his enemies.
198a. O ’Inw-Crown, thou has come forth from him as he came forth from thee.
198b. The great ’Iḫ.t has given birth to thee, the ’Iḫ.t-wt.t has adorned thee;
198c. the ’Iḫ.t-wt.t has given birth to thee, the great ’Iḫ.t has adorned thee,
198d. for as for thee, thou art like Horus, who fought in protection of his eye.
"gas" has given birth to thee, the great "yeast gas" has adorned thee. The great "yeast gas" has given birth to the, the great "gas" has adorned thee.
from 664;
1916-1 (N. 719 + 29). O N., great is sleep; it is great to sleep.
1916-2 (N. 709 + 4). This great one sleeps, he sleeps; wake up, raise thyself up.
1916-3 (Nt. 738). Great is thine odour, pleasant to the nose, the odour of ’Iḫ.t-wt.t.
And finally from 576;
1502b. Osiris awakes in peace; he who is in Ndi.t awakes in peace.
1503a. His head is lifted up by Rē‘; his odour is [as] that of the ’Iḫ.t-wt.t-serpent.
1503b. The head of N. also is lifted up by Rē‘; the odour of N. is as that of ’Iḫ.t-wt.t-serpent.
This may be a type of snake that smells something like rising bread or possibly it's just a recognition of its dangerous properties.
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this is how the pyramid was built: Initially in a succession of degrees that some call “crossai” and others “bomides”. the word “base” or “bomides” is a small altar, pedestal, elevated platform, table or entablature, which, once laid in place, is used as a “base” to support the “crossaï”. The word “row” or “crossaï” refers to a corbel/crenel forming stairs. This all suggests the ramps or steps were made from two types of stone that ended on stages or platforms. Supporting evidence for the construction methods used for building the pyramids is in the earliest writings of the Egyptians. The earliest known ancient texts are the so-called “pyramid texts”. They were written over 5,000 years ago and are some of the oldest known writings in the world. The inscriptions were found in the tomb of Unas. His pyramid can be found at Saqqara. The tomb depicts the Egyptian view of the afterlife and the ascent into the sky of the divine king after death. These religious texts are known as utterances or magical funerary spells.
The following text is a translation by Faulkner:
Text 365: The earth is beaten into steps for him towards heaven that he may mount on it towards heaven, and he rises on the smoke of the great fumigation. The earth or bedrock is beaten; meaning stone is cut and chiselled to form steps.
Now, to a modern reference by Somers Clark and R. Engelbach (Ancient Egyptian Construction and Architecture). on p. 178 and figure 210 of Clark and Engelbach’s book. They describe a set of steps at Saqqara. I will cite their description of the illustration as follows:
The earliest stairway yet known, which is constructed of laid blocks, is one leading up to the roof of one of the small chapels, which are believed to have formed the “heb-sed” or festival temple of King Djoser at Saqqara. It is free-standing and shows peculiarities not encountered elsewhere.
Each step is formed of a separate block, which engages in a small recess cut into the block below it. The angle of the “riser” or front of the step is not vertical, but at a right angle to the surface to the “tread”. The treads have very steep angles of slope and the stairway resembles a plain dromos more than any other example of later times.
Clark and Engelbach go on to say, “sloping treads are very common in Egyptian building, but examples are known both in the Old and the Middle Kingdoms in which steps are level and the risers vertical”. I submit that it is reasonable to assume the photograph( see www.thesecretdjed.com/ )(ramps)shows a set of ramps after they were dismantled from the pyramid, redressed, and used for this secondary purpose.
To back up this idea I will return to the pyramid text.
Text 389: Mother of Unas, you Wild Cow and wife, who is on the grassy hill, who is on the hill of the zHzH-bird! They stand fast, the two djed-pillars, the broken-off steps come down/from where the lights come down.
The section of text “the broken-off steps come down/from where the lights come down” is obviously referring to the act of dismantling the ramp after the pyramid was built. This is my new site www.thesecretdjed.com theory re-pyramid construction, you may find it interesting…….be patient the page takes a while to load
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Thanks for the input. This is utterance 267
364a. Thy heart belonged to thee, Osiris; thy legs belonged to thee, Osiris; thine arm(s) belonged to thee, Osiris.
364b. The heart of N. belongs to himself; his legs belong to himself; his arm(s) belong(s) to himself.
365a. A stairway to heaven shall be laid down for him, that he may ascend to heaven thereon;
365b. he ascends on the smoke (incense) of the great censing.
366a. N. flies, as a goose; he alights as a scarab;
366b. he flies as a goose; he alights as a scarab
366c. upon the empty throne which is in thy boat, O Rē‘.
367a. Stand up, remove thyself, thou who knowest not the reed-thicket,
367b. that N. may sit in thy place and row (around) in heaven in thy boat, O Re.
368a. N. pushes off from the earth in thy boat, O Rē‘;
368b. so when thou goest forth from the horizon, he (N.) has his sceptre in his hand,
368c. as navigator of thy boat, O Rē‘,
369. Thou (N.) mountest up to heaven; thou separatest thyself from the earth, a separation from wife and office (royal-apron).
In this case Osiris is referring not to the God or the geyser but to the dead king. Kings were held responsible for crops and water pressure so they are associated with Osiris. This can get confusing since often the reference is to Osiris rather than to "N" (the dearly departed).
The king is ascending to heaven and the pyramid is the ladder on which he ascends. The ceremony involves the burning of incense on the north side and this helps the king ascend to the boat of Re. This utterance is probably one of the latest ones written long after the pyramids were complete. I believe this for several reasons but the most obvious is that there are no untranslatable heiroglyps in it. That Faulkner often translates "incense" as "fumigate" is interesting since in many cases "fumigate" seems to work better to describe the action of carbon dioxide.
The viscera of the dead ended up in the marsh of reeds which was actually on Earth. The reed thicket then is "experienced" only by the dead. 367a and b are simply telling the living to stay out of the way of the ascending king.
It's most interesting that you're so interested in the djet (tet). I'm developing a theory on this now but it would be premature to mention it. I confess I wasn't fully able to grasp the intent of the video and couldn't get it to play properly. Of course a windlass can't be ruled out but it seems less likely for a technology which had yet to invent the wheel.
There are numerous references to ladders in the Pyramid Texts and they seem to not always point to the same thing. Some are obviously literal ladders.
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Here is Utterance 271. It appears to be a little older. I don't have much of an opinion abot it but "Dȝ.t." may refer to the source of water, "geyser". I also think all the references to "herb hill" are to Giza.
388a. It is N. who inundated the land after it had come out of the ocean; it is N. who pulled up the papyrus;
388b. it is N. who reconciled the two lands; it is N. who united the two lands;
388c. it is N. with whom his mother, the great wild-cow, will be united.
389a. Mother of N., thou wild-cow, who is upon the herb (-overgrown) hill, who is upon the hill of the sḥsḥ-bird.
389b. the two dd-pillars are standing, the broken steps are falling down.
390a. N. ascends on the ladder which his father Rē‘ made for him,
390b. Horus and Set lay hold of the arm of N.; they take him to the Dȝ.t.
391a. He (Horus) to whom it was signalled (winked): "Guard thyself against him to whom (this) is ordered";
391b. he (Set) to whom it was ordered: "Guard thyself against him to whom (this) is signalled (winked)."
391c. The face of god is open (revealed) to N.; N. sits (takes his place) upon the great throne at the side of the god.
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389b. the two dd-pillars are standing, the broken steps are falling down. The djed!! said to represented strength, stability and balance, and that it also symbolized the backbone of a god king called Osiris. My research will demonstrate the djed is a winch or windlass.
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ahhh the wheel.The vast majority of people, including me, hold to the Darwinian view of technological evolution, which is a type of league table with the flint arrow at the bottom and the silicon chip at the top.Place in order of invention, the steam engine the simple pedal and a vending machine.
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posted
I'm not ready to comment on the djed yet but have found some interesting facts.
There is a very young mountain chain SSW of Giza which rose in the Nile headwares and caused a lake to form. This lake (Lake Kivu) is highly carbonated and is one of three such lakes in the world, all in Africa.
This may be the smoking gun when you consider that the underground basins are known to exist not far to the north of this area. All that's really needed may be the larger rainfall that predominated before 3000 BC.
posted
Has anyone access to the build report for the experiment conducted by the Nissan Corporation to recreate a 1/10 scale replica of the Giza pyramid in the 1970s? The overview used to be online, but like George Bush's drug convictions, is now purged from the web.
As I recall, Nissan started out using tools, transports, and lift structures proposed by many historians. When these failed, they brought in and used modern tools such as Helicopters, Cranes, cutting Lasers, and boats. In the end, they still failed to meet the tolerances of the actual pyramids by a factor of 100. The project was halted before completion, when Nissan deviated from their original plan and the cranes were tearing up the desert.
That's pretty humbling that modern machinery cannot yet produce the precision that was deployed by the ancient Egyptians. Based on Nissan's conclusions, I would say Yes, the ancient Egyptians knowledge of working with stone (and applies to other materials) far exceeded that of modern man. Bear in mind that Nissan was using stones 1/10th the size of the original and achieved precision less than 1/100th of the original even when cutting the stones with modren industrial cutting lasers.
Has anyone here reviewed the details of this experiment? If not, I highly suggest that you do.
Posts: 3595 | From: Moved To Mars. Waiting with shotgun | Registered: Dec 2006
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posted
I'm still working on this. Right now I'm trying to "collate" and date the Pyramid Texts. There are some more heiroglpyhs that might be translateable as well.
Here are some cold water geysers from Utah if you can view UTube and have a couple minutes. Note the actual appearance of the geysers from burning bushes to lotus flowers. They tend to be very white and frothy. I've seen stills of other appearances. Also note the djed-like structure at the base of Crystal Geyser.
quote:Originally posted by djed: 389b. the two dd-pillars are standing, the broken steps are falling down. The djed!! said to represented strength, stability and balance, and that it also symbolized the backbone of a god king called Osiris. My research will demonstrate the djed is a winch or windlass.
I've had time to more fully develop my ideas about the nature and usage of the djed.
This is a cylindrical object tapering outward toward the top with a flared area at the base and four large equally spaced discs near the top. It is often depicted with Osiris standing right inside and only his eyes and arms visible. When more is visible the top portion of his head is sometimes missing like the Sphinx.
In utterance 423 there is a strong implication that natron is given to Osiris (take to thyself) so as to make him stand and appear young again. I believe the natron (salts) were added to the carbonated water to cause it to erupt. Osiris would stand when the libation of natron was added.
This geyser (Osiris) was near the top of a hill and the water would simply run off so high walls were built around the area. But this resulted in the eye of the geyser being under water so that its action was being smothered. To counteract this they split a tree trunk, hollowed it out, tied it back together, and inverted it over the eye. Now when the geyser erupted it would blow the water out of the tree trunk and more water couldn't flow back in to smother it. This was the first djed pillar and it was suspended a little way over the opening so pressure surges wouldn't damage it. Since it tapered outward toward the top any flow that enterred it was unable to damage it.
The top of the djed was a system of four sets of teeth which could be adjusted with the wAs scepter to impede the flow of water. This system essentially was like a choke as you would hold your thumb over the end of a hose. If the geyser lost height you'dsimply adjust the teeth into the flow thereby increasing the pressure and height. It could be used to make the geyser more "stable" and "enduring". The operation of the throttle is hinted at in utterance #298;
443a. he draws, (the teeth) which are upon (in) thy mouth; he saps thy poison
443b. with those four strings, which were in the service of the sandals of Osiris.
As the throttle is closed the poisonous CO2 is removed to a greater degree. The four strings operate the four sets of teeth under each of the four discs in the top of the djed pillar. Osiris stands in his "sandals".
The lakes and watercourses fed by these geysers would have been warm and heavily CO2 laden. This would cause explosive growth of algae. Only some species of fish can survive in such inhospitable conditions and these were probably gathered up at the beginning of the inundation and added to the "Lake of the Jackal". These would not only help keep the water fresh but would provide fertilizer for the sandy soil at the end of the growing season. These fish were likely the species that were against the religion to eat since they were reputed to have eaten the phalus of Osiris. It was no loss to the economy since the fish served a useful purpose.
The djed pillar remained an important symbol in Egyptian religion long after its use had been forgotten.
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Dear Members: I need to make myself clear on what I mean by ‘building’ this pyramid, it will be like a mental challenge (Hypothetical). This may be your only chance to see the building of a pyramid from the top down and the inside out! If you go to my website (Our Pyramid on the Menu)you can see the details on how it will be done. We have four Crafts that you can work with, Masons, Miners, Extras and Laborers. Go to one of these pages and you will be counted as one of these workers. Ask your friends to join in if you wish. We have an Administrators Page where you can visit (daily, weekly or whenever) to see our progress, changes or any other news about our work. I will post messages there, and you can contact me and ask questions. This should be very interesting and a lot of fun! Project starts. 01/01/2008
To the non-believers, as an old saying goes: If you think this can’t be done, just hide and watch! Regards: William C. Mayfield, Reno, Nevada, USA
Posts: 11 | From: Reno, Nevada | Registered: Dec 2007
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quote:Originally posted by sam p: I'm interested in opinions on the possibility of this being the means that these were actually built.
There seem to be a lot of very expert individuals here so opinions are most welcome.
TTT- - for relevance.
Dear Members (Revised: 12/18/2007) I need to make myself clear on what I mean by ‘building’ this pyramid, it could be like make believe. This may be your only chance to see the building of a pyramid from the top down and the inside out, starting on a Mountain top. Theoretically, the mountain disappeared and there stands Our Pyramid. If you go to my website, (click Our Pyramid on the Directory) you can see the details on how it will be done. We have four Crafts that you can work with, Masons, Miners, Extras and Laborers. Go to one of these pages and you will be counted as one of these workers. Ask your friends to join in if you wish. We have an Administrator’s Page where you can visit (daily, weekly or whenever) to see our progress, changes or any other news about our work. I will post messages there, and you can contact me and ask questions. This should be very interesting and a lot of fun! (No cost, no work) Project starts, (Extras and Laborers: 12/26/2007) others, 01/01/2008. Be a Sidewalk Superintendent!
To the non-believers, as an old saying goes: If you think this can’t be done, just hide and watch! Regards: William C. Mayfield, Reno, Nevada, USA
Posts: 11 | From: Reno, Nevada | Registered: Dec 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Are you thinking of an engineering career? If you are, there are plenty of engineering programs that take trips to different parts of the globe to study famous historical architectural feats. The Pyramids of Giza are at the top of the list.
If you are interested in how things are built so much, I suggest you look into these programs.
posted
Dear Members (Revised: 12/18/2007) I need to make myself clear on what I mean by ‘building’ this pyramid, it could be like a game. This may be your only chance to see the building of a pyramid from the top down and the inside out, starting on a Mountain top. Theoretically, the mountain disappeared and there stands Our Pyramid. If you go to my website, (click Our Pyramid on the Directory) you can see the details on how it will be done. We have four Crafts that you can work with, Masons, Miners, Extras and Laborers. Go to one of these pages and you will be counted as one of these workers. Ask your friends to join in if you wish. We have an Administrator’s Page where you can visit (daily, weekly or whenever) to see our progress, changes or any other news about our work. I will post messages there, and you can contact me and ask questions. This should be very interesting and a lot of fun! (No cost, no work) Project starts, (Extras and Laborers: 12/26/2007) others, 01/01/2008. Be a Sidewalk Superintendent!
131a. To say: The abomination of N. is hunger; he does not eat it;
131b. the abomination of N. is thirst; he does not drink it.
131c. It is N. who gives food to those who exist.
131d. His nurse is ’iȝ.t;
131e. it is she who makes his life (through nourishment?); it is she who gave birth to N.
132a. N. was conceived in the night; N. was born in the night.
132b. He belongs, to the Followers of Rē‘, who are before the morning star.
132c. N. was conceived in Nun; he was born in Nun.
132d. He has come; he has brought to you (some) bread of that which he found there.
I don't know why this didn't show up in previous searches except perhaps because I often included "Osiris" with the search phrase to limit the search to the Pyramid Texts. "Osiris" doesn't appear in this utterance. Perhaps it pre-dates most of them or more likely his presence is assumed as a part of N; an equivalency.
It's possible that 131d & e are simply referring to a feminine noun "gas" rather than a feminine deity.
In either case this is pretty explicit: N is made by CO2 and was given life by "CO2". In was in the darkness of the caverns where "Osiris N" was born. ...In the waters of Nu under the auspices of Nun and the "Lord of the Caverns", Osiris.
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I don't know how I missed this. It didn't show up on the searches for some reason. It seems to tie everything together pretty neatly.
Utterance 211.
131a. To say: The abomination of N. is hunger; he does not eat it;
131b. the abomination of N. is thirst; he does not drink it.
131c. It is N. who gives food to those who exist.
131d. His nurse is ’iȝ.t;
131e. it is she who makes his life (through nourishment?); it is she who gave birth to N.
132a. N. was conceived in the night; N. was born in the night.
132b. He belongs, to the Followers of Rē‘, who are before the morning star.
132c. N. was conceived in Nun; he was born in Nun.
132d. He has come; he has brought to you (some) bread of that which he found there.
This clearly states that the dead king/ Osiris has "gas" for a nurse. It is the gas that makes him live. It is Nun (the primordial waters) who gave birth to N/ Osiris.
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There are numerous descriptive terms for Horus' eye in the Pyramid Texts and what appear to be a large number of names as well.
I've thought I've known what this eye is and the names for some time but have not stated it because I failed to grasp the basic concept of what Horus is. It was caused by viewing this in a vacuum and being confused by believing Horus was a single entity rather than two.
Horus apparently was originally the spirit which was the land of the horizon. This was the land above the Nile Valley where the horizon was visible. But this was a specific and well defined area that extended from the South Fayuum to Giza (or Abu Rawash) and west to what was probably the oldest course of the Nile. This triangular section was a part of Geb and Horus was its spirit. This Horus was a god and was credited with the ability of this area to be lush despite being in a desert. Horus was the water coming up through the Earth in fissures and oozing up though cracks.
But Horus was also a dead king resurrected as the child of Isis and featured in legend. He was the spirit of this lush region personified and redeified.
There are dozens of names in the PT but these are in just the first few pages (and some from memory)
Dried Sweet Hard White Green Black Red Upper Lower Right Left
These are distinct eyes rather than pet names for the same eye ripped out by Set.
These eyes had many remarkable attributes as well
Water circulated behind them. They have an odor. They were swallowed by various entities. (mostly Gods) They can drip on the tufts of plants. They breathe!!! Osiris' body is full of one that he might live. They were sealed up.
These eyes are the holes through which water flowed up. They were drilled into the larger fissures which often resulted in cold water geysers powered by the yeast gas which was the efflux of Osiris. Natron was added as necessary. Lower eyes were topped by a djed or the sandals of Osiris so that the water might be aimed and controlled to fill the upper eye of Horus on the platform above. If this aim were bad the platform might be destroyed and the "eye swallowed" and then the "bridge girderers of the desert" would have no use for the boat made by Khnum.
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51c. Osiris, N., take to thyself the eye of Horus, with which he brought and carried the gods. Twȝ.t-oil.
This, utterance #76, is really pretty remarkable in its simplicity. It is an "incantation" expressed as a wish that the dead king who was responsible for the geysers in life should rise with Osiris; to take the eye to himself, or become as a part of the eye. This "eye" could not take away the Gods but it could bring them and only then could it carry them.
It was Horus, God of the ennead of the Earth and spirit of the land of the geysers (D[]t)who brought and carried the Gods (through his eye).
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The name of the counterweight is mentioned only a few times in the Pyramid Texts. It appears to be "Ḥnw-boat". I don't believe this is a proper noun. In later times it might have been replaced by other terms which were proper nouns. It's most apparent usage is in utterance #214 line 138c: Thou descendest on firm (copper?) cables, on the shoulders of Horus in his name of "He who is in the Ḥnw-boat." I seriously doubt these are copper cables, however. It appears also in utt's 364,644, 645,647,and 669.
It might be noted that 669 implies copper cables as well.
There are several more non-proper nouns to work on.
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There are lots more references to geysers in the pyramid texts but most of these are either disjointed or haven't been relevant to an argument at hand.
Many of these are somewhat difficult to explain without bringing geysers into the picture. For instance "bows" (sky arcs) are mentioned repeatedly in the Pyramid Texts. These appear in the Land of Horus which is the area that the pyramids were built and are riddled with caves and caverns. It is Osiris who is Lord of the Caverns and the nine bows are the rainbows of the nine gods of the Ennead. Utterance 222 says that Osiris and the king, 202b. cause thou that N. govern the Nine Bows, that he equip the Ennead.
#667A- The time of inundation comes, the wȝg-festival comes, to the uplands, it comes as Osiris. (inundation comes to the uplands!!)
#397- He is effervescent; he is effervescent; Shu, let thy arms be about N.
B of D #59- Sycamore which gives me air from within itself. (this is the djed pillar and the air within allows Osiris to stand).
#581- 1553a. Aker stands up for thee; Shu dries (lit. something like. "lies down," Wb. V 366) for thee. 1553b. They tremble who see the inundation (when) it tosses; (the inundation when it tosses!!!)
#486- 1039a. To say: Greetings to you, Waters, which were brought by Shu and lifted up by the two sources,
#610- 1723b. when the great bread and this wine-like water were given to him.
#382- 670b. Horus circulates behind his eye.
#494- 1063b. Water was given by the Two Enneads. 1063c. [The flood] stood [on the bank]. (there are a very limited number of ways that a flood can get on the bank)
I think I've got a couple more words as well. When Osiris settles into the []nw-boat he becomes Seker (1256c. when Osiris (N.) said, "come to me," hence comes his name as "Seker.". Seker is Head of "Pdw-'s" which means something likes "lifts" as the action of a crane. This word, I'm told, uses a "smooth" determinative. Seker lifts the M[].t-boat which is full of stones.
138c. thou descendest on firm (copper?) cables, on the shoulders of Horus in his name of "He who is in the Ḥnw-boat."
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370a. To say: N. washes himself, Re appears, the Great Ennead sparkles;
The dearly departed washes himself. The sun comes out. The geysers which comprise the ennead sparkle.
1728a. The water-holes are united for thee; the lakes are brought together for thee,
There's a river in the valley and numerous lakes throughout Egypt but what are the water-holes?
1748a. Wash thy hands with this fresh water which I have given thee, my (lit. thy) father Osiris.
This literally says Osiris is fresh water. Of course most readers believe Osiris is the inundation of the valley so this is hardly conclusive but his effervescence, efflux, yeast gas, and "water like wine" might mean this is not the flood of the valley.
1405a. To say: The earth is high under the sky by (means of) thine arms, Tefnut.
I believe this line is in reference to the use of the geyser to build the pyramid. The Earth has been made high into the sky with the use of effort of the geyser; the arms of Tefnut. This would seem to be supported by;
Utterance 333.
542a. To say: N. purified himself upon that appearing (-mound) of the earth, on which Re purified himself;
542b. he placed a []b-’ib-stand and he set up the ladder.
542c. Those who are in the great (heaven), they will take the arm of N.
N was purified in the water coming up from the ground which created a natural mound. The ladder is the pyramid which was built at this site after the cavern was drilled and it began shooting water up. The original mound may well have been removed to a temple which became the ben ben stone which "fell from the sky".
Also from utt #568;
1431c. A ladder is made for him, upon which he mounts, in its name of "That which mounts to heaven."
1432a. His boat is brought to him by the d‘m-sceptres of the imperishable stars.
1432b. The bull (or, ox) of heaven lowers its horn, so that he may pass thereon to the lakes of D[].t.
The D[].t is the generic term for geyser. To the ancients this term included not only the water shooting skyward and that falling back but also the water in the caves and tunnels which fed it as well as the lakes and waterways it formed. The king ascended to heaven in the M[].t-boat and his viscera was probably purified in the marsh of reeds after descending in the []nw-boat. Pyramid is literally "instrument of (for) ascension" in ancient Egyptian. The pyramid was the ladder by which the dead king, and the stones of which it was made, were lifted to heaven.
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