To all those who don't know then let me help you the Kushites were described as Tall and very dark complexion, they spoke a language similar to Kemetic while the Meroites spoke a language similar to Nubian.
quote: Of all the Nubian languages, the ones spoken along the Nile traditionally have received the most attention. Many manuscripts have been unearthed in the Nile Valley, mainly between the first and fifth cataracts, testifying to a firm Nubian presence in the area during the first millennium. Nobiin and a dialect cluster related to it, Kenzi-Dongolawi, are found in the same area . These languages were the languages of the Christian Nubian kingdoms. Historical comparative research has shown that the Nile-Nubian languages do not form a genetic unit ; the speakers of Nobiin arrived first in the area, followed later by the speakers of the Kenzi and Dongolawi varieties.
The other Nubian languages are found hundreds of kilometers to the southwest, in Darfur and in the Nuba Mountains of Kordofan. In the past, there has been debate as to whether the Nubian languages spread to the Nile valley from Kordofan and Darfur or moved in the opposite direction. For a long time it was assumed that the Nubian peoples dispersed from the Nile Valley to the south, probably at the time of the downfall of the Christian kingdoms. However, comparative lexicostatistic research in the second half of the twentieth century has shown that the spread must have been in the opposite direction (Thelwall 1982, Adams 1982, among others). Greenberg (as cited in Thelwall 1982) calculated that a split between Hill Nubian and the Nile-Nubian languages occurred at least 2,500 years ago. This account is corroborated by non-linguistic evidence — for example, the oral tradition of the Shaiqiya tribe of the Jaali group of arabized Nile-Nubians tells of coming from the southwest long ago .
The Greeks under Ptolemy or Petronius is said to have destroyed Napata the Kushite capital.
Kushites were more closely related to Dinka not Nubians.
posted
From Claude Rilly, courtesy of ARKAMANI Sudan Journal of Archaeology and Anthropology; An Arabic/English Review on Archaeological and Anthropological Research in the Sudan:
Meroitic was the language of the successive kingdoms of Kush. It was not written before the last stage of the civilization of Kush, the so-called « Kingdom of Meroe ». However, there is evidence for a much earlier date for the appearance of this language (Rilly, 8th Nilo-Saharan Conference, Hamburg, 2001), although it was not yet written with a script of its own. A list of Proto-Meroitic names of persons, obviously important figures of the first Kushite state, the Kingdom of Kerma, appears in an Egyptian papyrus from the sixteenth century BC.[I assume the one provided below]
According to the most recent archaeological work carried out by the University of Geneva, Kerma was founded around 2400 years BC and did not undergo any dramatic ethnic or cultural changes until its final stage. So the origin of Meroitic can now be placed very probably around this date or even a little earlier. [dates provided are of course, quite debatable, and not up to date]
Although unique in its own right, Meroitic seems to have affinities in form with Demotic scripture more so than any other writing form; interestingly, what seems to be early forms of Demotic script in public displays on royal monuments, make their appearance some time near the close of the 25th Kushitic dynasty. See for example:
About the Origins of Early Demotic in Lower Egypt, in: Life in a Multi-Cultural Society, 91-102. (tables, pl.), by Ola El-AGUIZY:
The first group of the Serapeum stelae, which dates back to the XXIInd Dynasty (Sheshonq V), shows that a cursive writing quite similar to abnormal hieratic was also used in Lower Egypt. The author assumes that the evolutions of the hieratic scripts of Upper and of Lower Egypt must have passed through similar phases, the latter leading to a cursive writing similar to abnormal hieratic. The Serapeum stelae are proof of this. The XXVth Dynasty stelae show that the few signs resembling Early Demotic have intermingled with a well-formed hieratic style. Such a style must have co-existed in Lower Egypt with a more cursive one, and might probably be considered as the origin of the Early Demotic script born in this part of the country. The author suggests that Demotic is not derived from a different cursive branch of hieratic used in Lower Egypt, but rather from one of two hieratic styles used in Lower Egypt itself. The first of these styles, being the natural development of late hieratic, had become too cursive to go on being used. The second, closer to the hieratic originals, developed into Early Demotic, by a gradual and normal simplification of well-formed hieratic signs. As for the early XXVIth Dynasty Stela Louvre C 101, bearing hieroglyphic, hieratic and Demotic signs, it must have been copied from a hieroglyphic original by a scribe familiar with Demotic. For the evolution see the comparative palaeographic tables added.
If these notes are anything to go by, the Meroites are related to the Kushites. Is there any archeological and bio-anthropological clues that suggest they were different people?
To all those who don't know then let me help you the Kushites were described as Tall and very dark complexion, they spoke a language similar to Kemetic while the Meroites spoke a language similar to Nubian.
quote: Of all the Nubian languages, the ones spoken along the Nile traditionally have received the most attention. Many manuscripts have been unearthed in the Nile Valley, mainly between the first and fifth cataracts, testifying to a firm Nubian presence in the area during the first millennium. Nobiin and a dialect cluster related to it, Kenzi-Dongolawi, are found in the same area . These languages were the languages of the Christian Nubian kingdoms. Historical comparative research has shown that the Nile-Nubian languages do not form a genetic unit ; the speakers of Nobiin arrived first in the area, followed later by the speakers of the Kenzi and Dongolawi varieties.
The other Nubian languages are found hundreds of kilometers to the southwest, in Darfur and in the Nuba Mountains of Kordofan. In the past, there has been debate as to whether the Nubian languages spread to the Nile valley from Kordofan and Darfur or moved in the opposite direction. For a long time it was assumed that the Nubian peoples dispersed from the Nile Valley to the south, probably at the time of the downfall of the Christian kingdoms. However, comparative lexicostatistic research in the second half of the twentieth century has shown that the spread must have been in the opposite direction (Thelwall 1982, Adams 1982, among others). Greenberg (as cited in Thelwall 1982) calculated that a split between Hill Nubian and the Nile-Nubian languages occurred at least 2,500 years ago. This account is corroborated by non-linguistic evidence — for example, the oral tradition of the Shaiqiya tribe of the Jaali group of arabized Nile-Nubians tells of coming from the southwest long ago .
The Greeks under Ptolemy or Petronius is said to have destroyed Napata the Kushite capital.
Kushites were more closely related to Dinka not Nubians.
Hotep
THE KUSHITES WERE the merioties.Meritioc is just a name for the culture of kush and were they built their tombs for the royal families of kush,that all. IT WILL be like calling the upper egyptian thebans,or thebans of thebes upper egyptians(egyptians).
Petronius was a roman.greeks did not rule egypt at this time,it was rome. it was the romans that invaded kush,but as you know the kushites won that war. The noba(not the nuba of the nuba hills)married into the kushite families and adopted kushite(meroitic culture to a large extent).THE WERE SOME CHANGES in culture when the official faith became christian,but it did not happen overnight.
THE NOBA WERE the groups that created the nubian kingdoms after kush in 350 a.d. That is were the term nubian comes in.recent studies suggest this.it is from this group,BUT kush was called nubia too by the 3rd cen, b.c..
The noba were closely related to the kushites.They are basically the same people and have the same origins and they intermarried with kushites overtime in ancient and early medieval times.
THAT IS why the medieval , modern nubians and arabized nubians could say they were the kushites too. kushites are meroites.The kushites capital was at napata,than changed to meroe.
Napata was not destroyed by greeks.there was a egyptian invasion in 590 b.c. however,and that is why the capital was moved.meriotic is term used for a change of culture to a certain extent,not the change of people. Napata was rebuilt too and existed just like meroe.
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posted
When did the term "Nubia" gain some meaning other than the gold producing regions? It must have been early, as Ezana's Aksumite expeditions refer to defeating the Kasu (Kush) as well as the Noba (Nubia). The two seem to be distinct (e.g. the later King Kaleb claims rule over both groups, but his successor W`zb only claims supremacy over the Kasu), and Ezana differentiates the Noba into "Red" and "Black" Noba. It's hard to tell from the text which is the more northern group.
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posted
The Romans I believe, were the earliest to popularize the bastardization of the Kemetian term "Nub", by applying it as a reference to the geographical region beyond Kemet's southern borders. No evidence has been produced to show that Kushites ever referred to themselves as "Nubians", nor had the Kemetians referred to them as such.
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quote:Originally posted by Supercar: Kenndo, what is the change in Meroitic culture from that of the Kushitic one?
THE kingdom of kush had two parts. THE kerma period of the kingdom of kush,than the second kingdom of kush after 1100 b.c. to 350 a.d.
now for the second one it seems there were three periods.
el kurru,napatan and meroitic.scholars break down the periods of of this kush.the napatan period is no that much different than the meroitic,but the reason meriotic is used because it seems a more native culture element was more major than the egyptian influence part of the second period of kush.example,art was abit different than egyptian or napatan.new architecture developed ,new writing,more different ways of dress.nubian gods started to be worship more so once again.
ROYAL tombs were being built around meroe than napatan.kush during the meritioc was became less egyptian influence and a older and new kushite view of the world has taken place. the kushites as whole except the middle class and upper classes were never egyptianized,but during this period,kushite culture became more nubianized again. NAPATAN kush in other words was more closer in culture to egypt than the meriotic period,but even the napatan period was still a kushite base culture.
All of it is kushite,just different periods. A REALLY good book on the further explaination on this is the-kingdom of kush by derek a. welsby
YOU could find his email address on the web. I COULD SEND to you his email address too if you like.
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quote:Originally posted by Yom: When did the term "Nubia" gain some meaning other than the gold producing regions? It must have been early, as Ezana's Aksumite expeditions refer to defeating the Kasu (Kush) as well as the Noba (Nubia). The two seem to be distinct (e.g. the later King Kaleb claims rule over both groups, but his successor W`zb only claims supremacy over the Kasu), and Ezana differentiates the Noba into "Red" and "Black" Noba. It's hard to tell from the text which is the more northern group.
THE RED noba were in lower nubia and took over than region in 350 a.d. for a few cent. THE BLACK noba ruled the kingdoms of alwa and makuria. THE ONLY real difference the black noba had with the kasu was language and to a certain extent dress.They are basically the same ethnic group,but the noba HAD A different language and only few of thier customs were different.WAS THERE fighting at times,yes,but at times they got along to,more so in late ancient times and later.
THE KASU SEEM TO HAVE DISAPPEARED INTO THE NOBA GROUP.Of course they understood meritioc,but the language of meroe did not survived but three meriotic letters was used in thier script later.
THE noba culture was basically the same as the kasu,but that change to some extent in medieval times when the christain faith was adopted by noba royal family officially.many noba however still had the kushite faith until late medieval and early modern times.
THE basic kushite faith still exist today.alot of the kushite culture still existed today as well,that is why modern scholars LIKE william y. adams and tim kendall and others are studying modern nubian culture more so today to get a better understanding of kush and later nubia.
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posted
Again, the problem stems from the great disarray caused by the term 'Nubia' and 'Nubian'.
'Nubia' was the name used by the Romans to describe the adjacent region immediately south of Egypt. The various peoples within that region were collectively called 'Nubians'. The term 'Nubia' is probably derived from the Egyptian word 'Nub' which means gold. The Egyptians never used the term 'Nubia' as an ethnic label but instead specified the various groups of so-called 'Nubians'. These 'Nubians' varied in physical appearance as well as language. Some looked more like the Egyptians while others looked more like Dinka type peoples. Some spoke Afrasian languages while others spoke Nilo-Saharan languages.
Things get more befuddled when *modern* linguistics labels 'Nubian' as a subgroup of Nilo-Saharan languages.
The Medjay who are most likely the ancestors of the Beja were 'Nubians' who spoke Afrasian languages while the Kushites and their immediate descendants the Meroites, who are likely ancestors of some modern Nubian groups spoke Nilo-Saharan.
Thus comes the confusion, when Egyptology says that Egyptians were aided by Nubians (Medjay) against their Nubian enemies (Kush).
In modern times, 'Nubian' is used specifically for those Nilo-Saharan speaking groups of Egypt and Sudan which are divided into Nile Nubians and Hill Nubians. The Nile Nubians are further divided into the Kanuzi of southern Egypt, the Mahas of northern Sudan, and the Dongola of north-central Sudan. The Hill Nubians are divided into far mor diverse groups.
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THE kingdom of kush had two parts. THE kerma period of the kingdom of kush,than the second kingdom of kush after 1100 b.c. to 350 a.d.
now for the second one it seems there were three periods.
el kurru,napatan and meroitic.scholars break down the periods of of this kush.the napatan period is no that much different than the meroitic,but the reason meriotic is used because it seems a more native culture element was more major than the egyptian influence part of the second period of kush.example,art was abit different than egyptian or napatan.
Can you share examples of this difference in Art? I mean art can be trendy; even back in dynastic Egypt, we saw this.
quote:Kenndo:
new architecture developed ,new writing,more different ways of dress.nubian gods started to be worship more so once again.
Naturally, the Kushites were progressive folks, and hence, no need to assume things, as the kind you mentioned, would remain static. However, are you suggesting that local Kushitic gods, that existed before syncretizing some of them with those of Kemet, were abandoned during the Napatan period?
quote:Kenndo:
ROYAL tombs were being built around meroe than napatan. kush during the meritioc was became less egyptian influence and a older and new kushite view of the world has taken place. the kushites as whole except the middle class and upper classes were never egyptianized,but during this period, kushite culture became more nubianized again.
Naturally, since the capital moved from Napata to Meroe.
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The noba were closely related to the kushites.They are basically the same people and have the same origins and they intermarried with kushites overtime in ancient and early medieval times.
What are your sources for this statement. The literature seems to agree that the Kushites and Noba were enemies.
The Noba are believed to have spoken a Nubian language. The Nubian language is not related Meroitic.
Welsby in The Kingdom of Kush wrote, "Early scholars of the [Meroitic] language hoped that it may have been related to Old Nubian but this has been shown not to be the case, although both are agglutinative, lack gender and the place of inflexions taken by post-positions and suffixes. Whether it was related to the language of the Kerma culture is another unknown, as no inscriptions in Kerman have come to light"(p.190).
Lazlo Torok, in The Kingdom of Kush:Handbook of the Napatan-Meroitic Civilization , wrote "Since so far no bilingual text has been discovered nor any related language found, very little of Meroitic can be understood. Some linguists see a relationship between Berber and Chadic on the one hand and Meroitic, on the other. Others regard it as related to Nubian. On geographical grounds, it has been suggested that Meroitic may be related to the following language groups(in describing order of probability). Eastern Sudabic; Nilo-Saharan; Cushitic/Omotic; Kordofanian. The efforts based on such assumptions produced, however, very few results, if any. While the linguistic classification of Meroitic remains obscure, there is hardly any doubt that it was originally spoken in the northern Butana" (p.50).
As you can see Meroitic has not been found to be related to Nubian, other languages in the Nilo-Saharan family ,or any other language spoken in the area.
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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The noba were closely related to the kushites.They are basically the same people and have the same origins and they intermarried with kushites overtime in ancient and early medieval times.
What are your sources for this statement. The literature seems to agree that the Kushites and Noba were enemies.
The Noba are believed to have spoken a Nubian language. The Nubian language is not related Meroitic.
Welsby in The Kingdom of Kush wrote, "Early scholars of the [Meroitic] language hoped that it may have been related to Old Nubian but this has been shown not to be the case, although both are agglutinative, lack gender and the place of inflexions taken by post-positions and suffixes. Whether it was related to the language of the Kerma culture is another unknown, as no inscriptions in Kerman have come to light"(p.190).
Lazlo Torok, in The Kingdom of Kush:Handbook of the Napatan-Meroitic Civilization , wrote "Since so far no bilingual text has been discovered nor any related language found, very little of Meroitic can be understood. Some linguists see a relationship between Berber and Chadic on the one hand and Meroitic, on the other. Others regard it as related to Nubian. On geographical grounds, it has been suggested that Meroitic may be related to the following language groups(in describing order of probability). Eastern Sudabic; Nilo-Saharan; Cushitic/Omotic; Kordofanian. The efforts based on such assumptions produced, however, very few results, if any. While the linguistic classification of Meroitic remains obscure, there is hardly any doubt that it was originally spoken in the northern Butana" (p.50).
As you can see Meroitic has not been found to be related to Nubian, other languages in the Nilo-Saharan family ,or any other language spoken in the area.
I DISAGREE with that,and i agree with supercar,meriotic i related to nubian and it belongs to in the sudanic(nilo-saharan group)
THE NOBA ARE RELATED TO THE KUSHITES. THEY have the basic same ethnic background but they were different tribal groups within the ethnic group. sometimes thier was fighting within the same groups.let's not forget that the mande mandingo were enemies with the sosso mande.they both were mande but fought one each other. THE NOBA AT THE END OF KUSH did not fight with the kushites at the end of kush and after kush more so.IT SEEMS there major problems were nomads and the axumites and other enemies.
when the noba formed the new kingdoms kushiyes and noba were not fighting and they were not enemies.most of the noba married into the kushite group and most kushites married into the noba.
In other words they really became one even more so.
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Again, the problem stems from the great disarray caused by the term 'Nubia' and 'Nubian'.
'Nubia' was the name used by the Romans to describe the adjacent region immediately south of Egypt. The various peoples within that region were collectively called 'Nubians'. The term 'Nubia' is probably derived from the Egyptian word 'Nub' which means gold. The Egyptians never used the term 'Nubia' as an ethnic label but instead specified the various groups of so-called 'Nubians'. These 'Nubians' varied in physical appearance as well as language. Some looked more like the Egyptians while others looked more like Dinka type peoples. Some spoke Afrasian languages while others spoke Nilo-Saharan languages.
Things get more befuddled when *modern* linguistics labels 'Nubian' as a subgroup of Nilo-Saharan languages.
The Medjay who are most likely the ancestors of the Beja were 'Nubians' who spoke Afrasian languages while the Kushites and their immediate descendants the Meroites, who are likely ancestors of some modern Nubian groups spoke Nilo-Saharan.
Thus comes the confusion, when Egyptology says that Egyptians were aided by Nubians (Medjay) against their Nubian enemies (Kush).
In modern times, 'Nubian' is used specifically for those Nilo-Saharan speaking groups of Egypt and Sudan which are divided into Nile Nubians and Hill Nubians. The Nile Nubians are further divided into the Kanuzi of southern Egypt, the Mahas of northern Sudan, and the Dongola of north-central Sudan. The Hill Nubians are divided into far mor diverse groups.
I AGREE and there is one more nile valley nubian group called the sukkot.let's not forget nubians of darfur and the other nubians ,the arabized nubians,of course latter are not nubian speakers any more because of the arabs.
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THE kingdom of kush had two parts. THE kerma period of the kingdom of kush,than the second kingdom of kush after 1100 b.c. to 350 a.d.
now for the second one it seems there were three periods.
el kurru,napatan and meroitic.scholars break down the periods of of this kush.the napatan period is no that much different than the meroitic,but the reason meriotic is used because it seems a more native culture element was more major than the egyptian influence part of the second period of kush.example,art was abit different than egyptian or napatan.
Can you share examples of this difference in Art? I mean art can be trendy; even back in dynastic Egypt, we saw this.
quote:Kenndo:
new architecture developed ,new writing,more different ways of dress.nubian gods started to be worship more so once again.
Naturally, the Kushites were progressive folks, and hence, no need to assume things, as the kind you mentioned, would remain static. However, are you suggesting that local Kushitic gods, that existed before syncretizing some of them with those of Kemet, were abandoned during the Napatan period?
quote:Kenndo:
ROYAL tombs were being built around meroe than napatan. kush during the meritioc was became less egyptian influence and a older and new kushite view of the world has taken place. the kushites as whole except the middle class and upper classes were never egyptianized,but during this period, kushite culture became more nubianized again.
Naturally, since the capital moved from Napata to Meroe.
kushite art-
EARLY kushite art is characterised by a brutal realism. I WILL write down what mr. welsby said. quote- although kushite artists were strongly influenced by these earlier styles,often to the extent that some confusion may occur when attempting to date a given piece on stylistic grounds,they were not producing slavish copies.THIER work has a vitaity of it's own and marks a renaissance of pharaonic art.
motifs and scenes of types unknown in in egypt serve to remind us that kushites were distinct people with thier own traditions.
THE ptolemaic dynasty,one of the three main players in hellenistic period in the eastern mediterranean,maintained a predilection for this hellenic artistic canon. traditional egyptian art was influenced by these artistic modes of expression and in its turn kushite art follwed suit.THE amalgam of kushite and hellenistic art is one of hallmarks of 'meroitic' culture.THE ARRIVAL OF THE ROMANS IN EGYPT added yet another influence both to egyptian and to kushite art.IT has been suggested,with some plausibility,that other influences came from the near east,and also,with little justication,from india.
later kushite art is characterised by stylistic disunity. for example,the two granite colossi which were erected in front of th temple of amun at tabo must contempory and must have been carved in the same locality.yet they vary considerably in detail, one being more typically meroitic with large bulging eyes in the flat face and with the mouth curving upwards as though in a smile.the other has almond-shaped eyes and straight mouth with more tube like lips.
THE art of this period has been divided into five stylistic groups,one of which displays new traits which which identified as meroitic(group 3) and encompassing a new type of represention,the ba-statue(group 4). group 1 continues the traditions of the earlier kushite period;group 2 marks a renaissance of egyptian forms;and group 5 is a short perhaps short-lived flowering of hellenistic art,principally from alexandria.
my comments/kenndo-(this is still kushite art but a more greater influence from greek art) now welsby quote- sculpure of group 5 is largely confined to the water sanctuary,the so-called 'royal baths' of meroe. one of the most interesting of this group is a reclining figure carved from nubian sandstone and coated with a thick layer of plaster which has then been painted. The reclining attitude of the statue can readily paralled in roman art.
THESE groups,although varying consideably in character,retain a number of common features which allow them to be grouped together under the single heading of 'meroitic art'. among these characteristics are human figures depicted with unusually broad,generally level shoulders,long columnar necks and round heads. another is predilection for depicting women of stout proportions, well illustrated by two female statues from meroe and by representations of kushite queens,as for example on the pylon of the lion temple of naqa(fig 6) the kingdom of kush page 181
Similar innovations are to be seen in reliefs.
ba-statues sculpted in the round are a peculiarly kushite art form,although the beliefs behind the concept of the ba,the soul of the deceased,are firmly rooted in egyptian religious practices. on egyptian religious papyri the ba is represented as a human-headed bird.The kushite representations,which are almost totally confined to northern nubia,are given progessively more human forms.THE easliest examples have the bird's body with a stylised human head.
At the other extreme the figure is almost totally human in form,with the wings of the bird adopting more the form of the cloak which trails down behind the individual(fig. 34) THE FACIAL FEATURES DEVELOP UNTIL THEY achieve the status of real portrature.among the fine series from the cemetry at karanog are several which preserve the sun disc on the head;traces of paint indicate the figures were gaudily painted(col.pl. 5).
minor artistic works
IN A number of cases kushite products are so faithfully copied from egyptian,hellenistic or graeco-roman models that thier origin is called into question. frequently,however,kushite traits can can be easily recognised.what is striking is the quality of a number of the undoubted kushite pieces.among these one may single out a crystal ball surmounted by a head of the goddess hathor in gold.THE head is very egyptian in character,but no parallels to this piece are known.
A very large cast-bronze object in the form of a squatting goose is totally egyptian in concept,yet here it used to form the leg of a typically kushite funerary bed.
a particularly fine piece is a spoon made from faience in the form of a swimming girl holding a basin in her outstretched hands. although the type has a long history,her kushite origin is suggested by her extremely broad hips,a feature of kushite ladies,and by a coiffure.
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quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: [qb] Kenndo [QUOTE]
The noba were closely related to the kushites.They are basically the same people and have the same origins and they intermarried with kushites overtime in ancient and early medieval times.
What are your sources for this statement. The literature seems to agree that the Kushites and Noba were enemies.
The Noba are believed to have spoken a Nubian language. The Nubian language is not related Meroitic.
Welsby in The Kingdom of Kush wrote, "Early scholars of the [Meroitic] language hoped that it may have been related to Old Nubian but this has been shown not to be the case, although both are agglutinative, lack gender and the place of inflexions taken by post-positions and suffixes. Whether it was related to the language of the Kerma culture is another unknown, as no inscriptions in Kerman have come to light"(p.190).
Lazlo Torok, in The Kingdom of Kush:Handbook of the Napatan-Meroitic Civilization , wrote "Since so far no bilingual text has been discovered nor any related language found, very little of Meroitic can be understood. Some linguists see a relationship between Berber and Chadic on the one hand and Meroitic, on the other. Others regard it as related to Nubian. On geographical grounds, it has been suggested that Meroitic may be related to the following language groups(in describing order of probability). Eastern Sudabic; Nilo-Saharan; Cushitic/Omotic; Kordofanian. The efforts based on such assumptions produced, however, very few results, if any. While the linguistic classification of Meroitic remains obscure, there is hardly any doubt that it was originally spoken in the northern Butana" (p.50).
As you can see Meroitic has not been found to be related to Nubian, other languages in the Nilo-Saharan family ,or any other language spoken in the area.
edited-I DISAGREE with that,and i agree with supercar,may not be related to meriotic but meroitic belongs to in the sudanic(nilo-saharan group)
THE NOBA ARE RELATED TO THE KUSHITES. THEY have the basic same ethnic background .
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THE NOBA ARE RELATED TO THE KUSHITES. THEY have the basic same ethnic background but they were different tribal groups within the ethnic group. sometimes thier was fighting within the same groups.let's not forget that the mande mandingo were enemies with the sosso mande.they both were mande but fought one each other. THE NOBA AT THE END OF KUSH did not fight with the kushites at the end of kush and after kush more so.IT SEEMS there major problems were nomads and the axumites and other enemies.
when the noba formed the new kingdoms kushiyes and noba were not fighting and they were not enemies.most of the noba married into the kushite group and most kushites married into the noba.
Please cite sources supporting the view that Kushites and Noba were the same.
Also the Sosso and Malinke are not the same ethnic groups. Both groups claim affiliation with the ancent Ma Civilization, but they speak different languages.
THE NOBA ARE RELATED TO THE KUSHITES. THEY have the basic same ethnic background but they were different tribal groups within the ethnic group. sometimes thier was fighting within the same groups.let's not forget that the mande mandingo were enemies with the sosso mande.they both were mande but fought one each other. THE NOBA AT THE END OF KUSH did not fight with the kushites at the end of kush and after kush more so.IT SEEMS there major problems were nomads and the axumites and other enemies.
when the noba formed the new kingdoms kushiyes and noba were not fighting and they were not enemies.most of the noba married into the kushite group and most kushites married into the noba.
Please cite sources supporting the view that Kushites and Noba were the same.
Also the Sosso and Malinke are not the same ethnic groups. Both groups claim affiliation with the ancent Ma Civilization, but they speak different languages.
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THE NOBA nad kushites were to some extent not the same but their basic culture WAS not different but the languages were different,but they have the same origin.YOU COULD BE different at the same time be the same
Modern nubians claim kush,and they claim medieval nubia as well.modern nubians see themselves as one peolpe with the kushites.They claim relations too them.
let's say is they were really that different,but in the end they did became one.that is my point.the kushites as whole never left the nile valley. I AM SAYING THAT THE NOBA and kasu were the same ethnic group with only some differences,and it was very minor.THE NOBA in in late ancient times worship kushite gods and they dressed like kushites,they acted like kushites,they look like kushites and the last rulers of kush were noba. They were two different tribes of the same ethnic group.
YOU COULD be of the same ethnic group as have different language or related but different languages as well.when i mean ethnic group i mean the bsaic same origin and basic same culture and civilization. The noba and kasu had both in common.the noba AND KASU were the same basic ethnic group but were different tribes(OR subgroups within a group)that is how i see it.THAT IS WHAT I MEAN BY ethnic group.WHEN SCHOLARS SAY A ETHNIC GROUP IS DIFFERENT OR they are a different ethnic group we have to be careful,because in this context it could be just a different tribal or subgroup within the overall group.
So were they noba a different ethnic group?no,were they a different tribal or subgroup?yes,and the latter point i would agree with you on that.
IT is like when scholars wouls say the german race,or french race.we know they are ethnic groups,not races,but for some reason some scholars still like to use that incorrect term for folks from the same race.
Another point, they had many things in common except language,but one thing their languages have in common,BOTH LANGUAGES belong to the (sudanic)nilo-saharan language group.
One example-there are some differences on the greeks and macedonians.were macedonians greeks?or just a tribe related to greeks but different at first and became more greek like when they adopted greek culture more.
Scholars say that they are closely related.some would say that the macedonians are greeks or if not greeks at first became so later,but still with some difference,but i say they were greeks from the start. scholars and common folks have different views on this as well,MANY WOULD SAY THEY ARE GREEKS TO WHILE OTHER WOULD SAY NO THEY WERE NOT.
One other example the mande is good point to make the point.
I DISAGREE WITH YOU ON THIS POINT,THE SOSSO WERE A mande subgroup and so were the malinke,they both belong to the same basic ethnic group. The mande is a ethnic group and a language group.Their languages are related and their customs are basically the same with only a minor differences.
Here is something about the mande
Mandé is an ethnic group of West Africa. Speakers of the Mande languages are found chiefly in Gambia, Guinea, Guinea-Bissau, Senegal and Mali. Linguistically, the Mande languages belong to a divergent branch of the Niger-Congo family. The Mande peoples are credited with the founding of the largest ancient West African empires. The Mandé are closely related to both West Atlantic-speakers (such as the Fulani and Wolof) and Nilo-Saharan -speakers (such as the Songhay), in terms of culture and race. At least some sources argue that the Mandé are defined by language, not by race, as over time many groups have adopted Mandé languages, names, and traditions. This is probably part of the reason for the widely varying estimates of the number of Mandé.
culture The Mandé, unlike most other Africans, are patrilineal and patriarchal. They are predominantly Muslims, but though ritual washing and daily prayers are usually observed, very few wear Arab dress and virtually no women wear the veil. The most famous Mandé practices are their fraternal orders and sororities known as Poro and Sande or Bundu, respectively.
References
UNESCO General History of Africa, Volume IV, pp. 197-200. Mauny, R. (1971), “The Western Sudan” in Shinnie: 66-87. Fage, John D. (2001), History of Africa. Routledge; 4th edition.
a correction from my other post mali empire had 40 million to 50 million people.
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I thought Noba was a general name that Strabo and other Greco-Roman writers gave to a group of people south of Egypt? Do you believe that the term Noba was actually used by the the actual group? How do we know what language they spoke since they left no written inscriptions?
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posted
I THINK they did use the term noba.they did of course wrote in meriotic but that stop 440 a.d. and greek was use and than in medieval times a script called old nubian was formed.they used other scripts too.I THINK THAT is where the term nubia comes from.the noba never call themselves nubian at first others did.
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posted
If you think then you don't have a definite answer. We don't even know what language the Noba spoke or what even they reffered to themselves. Did the Noba tell the Greco-Roman writers that is exactly what they called themselves?
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Who are the Sukkot?
a group of nubians closely related to the mahas
THEB NAME OF THIS GROUP was in the book called nubian ethnograhies by elizabeth warnock fernea.
here is something i found 3 DIALECT SURVEY
Although no dialect survey has come to our attention, Nubian is generally considered to be divided into Hill or Kordofan, Meidob, Kenuz, Mahas or Nobiin, and Dongolawi. The latter three, spoken along the Nile, are most likely candidates for language materials, according to Thelwall (personal communication, 1983). Although geographically separated by Mahas, Kenuz and Dongolawi are highly mutually intelligible.
4 USAGE
Nubian is a regional language.
5 ORTHOGRAPHIC STATUS
There is no standardized orthography for Nubian. It has been written in both Latinized and Arabic scripts.
my comments greek letters is being used now again this time without the three meriotic letters,well i think without them,i am not sure.
THE NUMBER OF NUBIAN SPEAKERS IS LARGER NOW.the link below is outdated when it come to the size of nubian speakers today.peace. http://isp.msu.edu/AfricanStudies/Posts: 2688 | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by ausar: If you think then you don't have a definite answer. We don't even know what language the Noba spoke or what even they reffered to themselves. Did the Noba tell the Greco-Roman writers that is exactly what they called themselves?
let me correct myself,the idea that nubian comes from the noba was written by a nubian scholar i quoted a few months ago,i was just trying to remember were i posted it. WE NEED THAT SEARCH BUTTON AGAIN.I WILL try to find the quote later.THE CULTURE of modern nubian speakers have not change much.we know that old nubian comes from ancient times and that basic language is still spoken today.THE noba spoke nubian. 1 CLASSIFICATION AND WHERE SPOKEN
The Nubian languages are spoken in southern Egypt and in the Sudan. They belong to the Nubian group of Eastern Sudanic branch of Chari Nile.
3 DIALECT SURVEY
Although no dialect survey has come to our attention, Nubian is generally considered to be divided into Hill or Kordofan, Meidob, Kenuz, Mahas or Nobiin, and Dongolawi. The latter three, spoken along the Nile, are most likely candidates for language materials, according to Thelwall (personal communication, 1983). Although geographically separated by Mahas, Kenuz and Dongolawi are highly mutually intelligible.
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posted
Kenndo, your email correspondance on Kushitic-Napatan and Meroitic Art can work as an archeological support for the idea that Meroitic complex was related to Napatan complex of the Kushites, whereby the former was essentially a continuation of the latter.
quote:Originally posted by kenndo:
The noba and kasu had both in common.the noba AND KASU were the same basic ethnic group but were different tribes(OR subgroups within a group)that is how i see it.THAT IS WHAT I MEAN BY ethnic group.WHEN SCHOLARS SAY A ETHNIC GROUP IS DIFFERENT OR they are a different ethnic group we have to be careful,because in this context it could be just a different tribal or subgroup within the overall group...
Another point, they had many things in common except language,but one thing their languages have in common,BOTH LANGUAGES belong to the (sudanic)nilo-saharan language group.
The Kushites were more ethnically heterogenous than their lower so-called "Nubian" counterparts, as can readily be seen in Kemetian art. Now, as the likes of Claude Rilly have pointed out, there are clues as to Meroitic being a spoken language in the Nile Valley long before the corresponding script was adopted for it. With these different ethnic groups, it would make sense that the Kerma social complex, from the start was able to amalgamate the related language groups of its societal occupants under a regional/Nile Valley lingua franca. It would seem that after the decline of Meroe, that the said Nilo-Saharan 'affiliated' lingua franca broke down as the region became increasingly subjected to foreign invasions, for example, Afrasan speakers from southwest Asia, European imperialists, and groups from west Saharan regions. On that backdrop, elements of the [defunct] Meroitic script and Kushitic names on Egyptian papyri come out as being related, and linguistic reconstructions done, as that done by Mr. Rilly, show 'relationship' with several languages now spoken in the region. What is your thoughts on this?
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Bender (1976 with hi5 own modifications): Nilo-Sahelian
A. Songhai B. Saharan C. Mahan D. Fur E. Eastern Sudanic (Greenberg's E 1. -1.8)
F. Nilotic G. Nyangiya, Teuso, Tepeth H. Central Sudanic I. Berta J. Kunama K. Koman L. Gumuz
Bender. who has carried out the most extensive assembly and colla- tion of existing and new data, emphasizes that his scheme is provisional, because of both the continuing expansion of the data base and the devel- opment of the comparative methodology. His scheme, nevertheless, represents a more critical reappraisal of Greenberg than Dalby's (1977). The weakness of the Chari-Nile hypothesis had been pr~viously pro- posed by Goodman (1971) on the basis of Greenberg's own evidence, but this hypothesis now rests on Bender's new data and analysis. Also to be noted are the revisions in Eastern Sudanic. The internal situation in Nilotic can now be reevaluated as a result of extensive recent work, particularly by scholaFs from CologneU niversity, though Bender concurs with Greenberg in accepting a three-way split at the next level down.
The Nubian Group
The major impact of the introduction of the Arabic language and Islam to the eastern Sudan began with the fall of Christian Nubia in the period after A.D. 1000, and the expansion of the use of Arabic ever since has created a situation today in which not only are speakers of many Nilo: Saharan languages interpenetrated and even isolated by Arabic mono- linguals, but they are also by and large bilingual with Arabic as at least a second, and increasingly a first, language. Thus it is often impossible, or at least very difficult, to estimate the previous distribution of Nilo- Saharan languages, particularly for the areas that at the present time are solely Arabic-speaking, or where the presence of non-Arabic speakers may be owing to recent migration. It is nevertheless surprising to observe how few of the N ilo-Saharan languages have either become extinct, or are on the verge of extinction, since 1920, the point from which the recorded information on the peoples and languages of the Sudan starts to achieve some sort of overall coverage (maps 8 and 9).
Internal Relations in the Nubian Language Group
The Nubian languages are, of course, important carry-overs from the pre-Arabic eras, and tracing their earlier history is an important part of our understanding of Sudanese history in the last millennium B.C. and the first millennium A.D. The most succinct summary of ideas about the history of the Nubian languages and possible migrations of Nubian- speaking peoples is given by Trigger (1966: 19): "The principal debate concerning the history of the Nubian languages has been whether they spread to the Nile Valley from Kordofan and Darfur or moved in the opposite direction." Basically MacMichael (1922) and Arkell (1961) argue that the presence of Nubian-speaking groups in Kordofan and Darfur resulted from the incursions of Ethiopians or the Arabs and Islam on the Nile N ubians. Zyhlarz (1928), relying on an evaluation of the linguistic evidence available to him, argues for a Kordofan origin. Of the various modified forms of these hypothesis which have been proposed, the only pertinent one is Greenberg (1963). He supports Zyhlarz, arguing tenta- tively, on the basis of a glottochronological study, that any split between "Hill and Nile Nubian more recent than 2,500 years B.P. [before present] is incorrect." Ultimately the choice among hypotheses depends on the establish- !pent of a reliable subclassificatio~ of the Nubian languages: Although it . has been known, at least since Mac Michael (1922), that the Nubian lan- guage group comprised Nobiin (Mahas), Dongolawi-Kenuzi, Hill Nubian (South Kordofan), Birgid, and Meidob, and that the two Nile Nubian dialects were closer to each other than to any other member, it was only with the coll~ction of new data on Birgid and Meidob and the systematic comparison"of basic vocabulary across the whole group(ThelwallI97S)' that a serious reappraisal of internal subgrouping could take place. The cognate counts of the 100-item list were submitted to cluster analyses, and tree diagrams based on five different methods were derived (fhelwall 1981). The trees yield the same derivation for the following relations: (1) Meidob is the most distant member of the group; (2) Kadaru and Debri are the closest-knit pair and, at 87 percent cognate, may be treated as dialects of one Hill (Kordofan) Nubian unit; and (3) Dongolawi-Kenuzi and Nobiin are closer to each other than either is to any other language. Crucial qualifications to this last statement are taken up below. What is not consistent from the tree diagrams is the hierarchical relationship among Birgid, Kadaru, Debri, and Nile Nubian. The basic anomaly is the difference in the percentages between Dongolawi as against Nobiin and Birgid, Kadaru and Debri. Ifwe take only the highest figures for either Kadaru or Debri, excluding the other on the basis that two cognate counts for such closely related languages will distort the figures, we still get a mean or average of 53 between Dongolawi and Birgid-Debri as against 40.2 between Nobiin and Birgid-Kadaru. .It is less for Nobiin:Birgid-Debri. This 13 percent difference is not plausibly explained as random differential retention of common core Nubian Lexicon. One plausible hypothesis is that the percentages for Dongolawi with Birgid, Kadaru, and Debri more accurately represent retained common vocabulary and that the Dongolawi:Nobiin percentage is discordantly high because of borrowing by Dongolawi from Nobiin so early in the history of Nubian differentiation that loan status is not easily discernible. In support of this interpretation we may argue first that place-names of probably Nobiin origin exist in an area that is now either Arabicized or inhabited by Dongolawi speakers. Second, the political dominance of Nobiin as the administrative and religious language (the extant texts in "Old Nubian" are closer to Nobiin than to any other present-day Nubian language) shows that Nobiin had a prestige advantage which would ex- plain continuing vocabulary interference from Nobiin through the medi- evalperiod, with a resulting higher proportion ofNobiinloansinpresent- day Dongolawi. A third argument is that in the first millennium A.D. ~ obiin and DongoJawi would still have been sufficiently mutually intelli- gible for the selection of alternative lexicon on the basis of prestige to have been sociolinguistically easy and not to require special pleading. If \\le discount thepongolawihigh score with Nobiin, the pattern of percent- ages may be reasonably int~rpreted as a dialect chain with the low range in the 40 percents, representing more distant members, and the 50 percents, the nearer members in a chain or network. Figure 1 presents a schematic version of present geographical distri- bution of the Nubian languages with the glottochronological dates inserted. The dates are not proposed deterministically but merely for hypothesis building and testing. .In summary, the lexicostatistical relations, with the overhigh Don- golawi:Nobiin figure attributed to contact influences, suggest that in the last millennium B.C. Nubian communities, presumably pastoralists in subsistence, spread out widely across the steppes between northern Dar- fur and the Nile.."The possible position of Meidob in its own group
coordinate with the group made up of the other four Nubian languages suggests that the movement was principally from Darfur eastward. The pre-Nobiin were the first Nubians to settle in the upper and lower Nubian Nile stretches, perhaps even in the latter part of the last millennium B.C. The pre-Dongolawi were a slightly later intrusion of nearby Nubians displacing the pre-Nobiin in Upper Nubia. If pre-Dongolawi were replac- ing the still very similar (at that time) pre-Nobiin, that would further enhance the movement of Nobiin vocabulary into Dongolawi and thus add to the appearance of special resemblance between the two which, it has been argued, was caused by the medieval prominence of Old Nubian. A recent examination of vocabulary evidence for N ubiancontact with the Nile is given in Behrens (1981). W. Y. Adams (chap. 2, above) adduces
evidence from texts which indicates the history of Nubian settlement is strikingly parallel to that reached from the linguistic sources. Some corroborating nonlinguistic information supporting this con- clusion is a migration tradition of the Shaiqiya tribe, who are part of the greater Jaali group, presently Arabic-speaking, along th~ Nile upstream from Dongola and who are considered arabized Nubians.. This tradition recounts that the Shaiqi came from western Sudan and first settled on the White Nile near Ed-Dueim, 120 kilometers south of Khartoum, and then at a later date moved north across the Bayuda steppe to their present position (Ali Osman, personal communication). It would be a very aber- rant and thus believable tradition even for a present-day Nubian-speak- ing community, let alone an Arabic one, since the historical importance of the Nubian kingdoms and the desire to manufacture a respectable Islamic and Arabian pedigree combine to give many peoples in the central and western Sudan migration-from-the-east traditions. The Meidob, for i,n- I stance, hedge their bets by having both a tradition linking them to the Nile
Acknowledgments
This paper could not have been completed without generous access to Roland Stevenson's word lists and Lionel Bender's word lists and ongoing grammatical analyses. It was written during a sabbatical visit to the Sudan from the New University ofUlsterJ with the gen.erous s~PP9rt of a British Academy research fellowship. Local facilities in Khartoum. were kindly provided by Dr. Mustafa Abdel Majid of the Linguistics .Department, University of Khartoum. W. Y. Adams was instrumental in encouraging me to turn my main attention to the Nubian group. I am also grateful to Ali Osman for stimulating discussions and unpublished information.
note-the christian nubian kingdom of alwa fell in 1504 to the funj
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quote:Originally posted by Supercar: Kenndo, your email correspondance on Kushitic-Napatan and Meroitic Art can work as an archeological support for the idea that Meroitic complex was related to Napatan complex of the Kushites, whereby the former was essentially a continuation of the latter.
quote:Originally posted by kenndo:
The noba and kasu had both in common.the noba AND KASU were the same basic ethnic group but were different tribes(OR subgroups within a group)that is how i see it.THAT IS WHAT I MEAN BY ethnic group.WHEN SCHOLARS SAY A ETHNIC GROUP IS DIFFERENT OR they are a different ethnic group we have to be careful,because in this context it could be just a different tribal or subgroup within the overall group...
Another point, they had many things in common except language,but one thing their languages have in common,BOTH LANGUAGES belong to the (sudanic)nilo-saharan language group.
The Kushites were more ethnically heterogenous than their lower so-called "Nubian" counterparts, as can readily be seen in Kemetian art. Now, as the likes of Claude Rilly have pointed out, there are clues as to Meroitic being a spoken language in the Nile Valley long before the corresponding script was adopted for it. With these different ethnic groups, it would make sense that the Kerma social complex, from the start was able to amalgamate the related language groups of its societal occupants under a regional/Nile Valley lingua franca. It would seem that after the decline of Meroe, that the said Nilo-Saharan 'affiliated' lingua franca broke down as the region became increasingly subjected to foreign invasions, for example, Afrasan speakers from southwest Asia, European imperialists, and groups from west Saharan regions. On that backdrop, elements of the [defunct] Meroitic script and Kushitic names on Egyptian papyri come out as being related, and linguistic reconstructions done, as that done by Mr. Rilly, show 'relationship' with several languages now spoken in the region. What is your thoughts on this?
You made good point,i agree with this.
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posted
OH, i would say that kushites had thier names on walls,skins,egyptian and kushite papyri of the early napatan period and kushite papyri later and other things they wrote on. peace.
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posted
This is from awhile ago but i will post it here. quote-
quote: By the way do you consider the noba(nubians)of today ethnically the same as the kushites/kerma nubians?or a different civilization and people from kush even if the noba interrmarried with kushites and got alot of influence from them etc...?
Doctor winters for example always go on to say they are basically a different ethnic group and civililzation and not like the mande who have different sub ethnic groups but still the Mandinka people and Soninke people are still mande ethnically the same.
For example some could say the kushites and noba are sub-ethnic groups that belong to be ethnic group Nehesy.
I know there is debate still going on about this but i am starting to believe that nubians of today,and the group they came from, the noba, really are a different ethnic group then then kushites of meroe.
Like how the A and B group nubians are a different ethnic group from the C group AND THEY ARE different then the kushites.
Note- There is debate if the c group are different the the a or b group nubians. They are called nubians if you read books or go to wikipedia but they are different ethnic groups that happen to live in nubia.
I got this from another forum. 2020-10-29 S. Faraji - The Kushite Kingdom of Kerma in the Post Middle Kingdom Era https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOEEkJOlsso PNG1970 quote- What is most interesting is section 37:26 is the most interesting.
posted
Modern Nubians or Nuba/Noba are 'Nobin' people who are Nilo-Saharans. This is different from ancient Nubians who are inhabitants of the region of Nubia.
Nubia was the term Romans used to refer to the land south of Egypt. The word is not Latin and has no Latin etymology and it is likely the word comes from the Egyptian word Nubt meaning golden as in place of gold. The actual term the Egyptians used for the land south of them is Ta-Nehesy. Ta-Nehesy corresponds to the Roamn 'Nubia' and was a geographic term simply for the region south of Egypt. It was NOT term for a ethnicity or polity since many ethnicities and polities existed in Nubia. Kushite were one of them. So Kushites are ancient Nubians because they lived in Nubia but they are not the same as modern Nubians who are Nobiin.
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quote: Noba is a term found in a number of historical sources discussing ancient and Medieval Nubia. Its exact meaning is uncertain, with ancient sources themselves seeming confused about the region south of Egypt. Most likely it refers to two separate groups: the Nuba, a people from southeast of Nubia, and a people later known as the Nobatae (Nubians), a group of unknown origin who invaded Nubia during the decline of Meroe, Conquered the kingdom of Kush and most likely founded the kingdom of Nobatia and Makuria and gave their name to Nubia itself as well as the Nubian languages.
Nubians
quote: Modern Nubians speak Nubian languages, Eastern Sudanic languages that is part of the Nilo-Saharan family. The Old Nubian language is attested from the 8th century, and is the oldest recorded language of Africa outside of the Afroasiatic family. It was the language of the Noba nomads who occupied the Nile between the First and Third Cataracts and also of the Makorae nomads who occupied the land between the Third and Fourth Cataracts, following the collapse of the Kingdom of Kush sometime in the fourth century. The Makorae were a separate tribe who eventually conquered or inherited the lands of the Noba: they established a Byzantine-influenced state called the Makuria, which administered the Noba lands separately as the eparchy of Nobatia. Nobadia was converted to Miaphysitism by the Orthodox priest Julian and Longinus of Constantinople, and thereafter received its bishops from the Pope of the Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria.
quote: The name Alodia might be of considerable antiquity, perhaps appearing first as Alut on a Kushite stela from the late 4th century BC. It appeared again as Alwa on a list of Kushite towns by the Roman author Pliny the Elder (1st century AD), said to be located south of Meroe.[37] Another town named Alwa is mentioned in a 4th-century Aksumite inscription, this time located near the confluence of the Nile and the Atbara rivers.[38]
By the early 4th century the kingdom of Kush, which used to control much of Sudan's riverbanks, was in decline, and Nubians (speakers of Nubian languages) began to settle in the Nile Valley.[40] They originally lived west of the Nile, but changes in the climate forced them eastward, resulting in conflicts with Kush from at least the 1st-century BC.[41] In the mid-4th century the Nubians occupied most of the area once controlled by Kush,[38] while it was limited to the northern reaches of the Butana.[42] An Aksumite inscription mentions how the warlike Nubians also threatened the borders of the Aksumite kingdom north of the Tekeze River, resulting in an Aksumite expedition.[43] It describes a Nubian defeat by Aksumite forces and a subsequent march to the confluence of the Nile and Atbara. There the Aksumites plundered several Kushite towns, including Alwa.[38]
Archaeological evidence suggests the kingdom of Kush ceased to exist in the middle of the 4th century. It is not known whether the Aksumite expeditions played a direct role in its fall. It seems likely that the Aksumite presence in Nubia was short-lived.[44] Eventually, the region saw the development of regional centres whose ruling elites were buried in large tumuli.[45] Such tumuli, within what would become Alodia, are known from El-Hobagi, Jebel Qisi and perhaps Jebel Aulia.[46] The excavated tumuli of El-Hobagi are known to date to the late 4th century,[47] and contained an assortment of weaponry imitating Kushite royal funerary rituals.[48] Meanwhile, many Kushite temples and settlements, including the former capital Meroe, seem to have been largely abandoned.[49] The Kushites themselves were absorbed into the Nubians[50] and their language was replaced by Nubian.[51]
How the kingdom of Alodia came into being is unknown.[52] Its formation was completed by the mid-6th century, when it is said to have existed alongside the other Nubian kingdoms of Nobadia and Makuria in the north.[30] Soba, which by the 6th century had developed into a major urban center,[53] served as its capital.[30] In 569 the kingdom of Alodia was mentioned for the first time, being described by John of Ephesus as a kingdom on the cusp of Christianization.[52] Independently of John of Ephesus, the kingdom's existence is also verified by a late 6th century Greek document from Byzantine Egypt, describing the sale of an Alodian slave girl.[54]
Wikipedia
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