quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Lioness is correct! The 3/5ths Amendment was NOT racial because it was meant for slaves NOT all black people since many blacks in the Northern states were free. The 3/5ths Amendment was created by Republicans because the slave holding Democrats were counting their slaves in the census for districting and thus giving them more power in congress. The Republicans pointed out the hypocrisy of including slaves in a census for citizens when they were not citizens at all with any rights but property. Therefore they made a compromise with the Democrats that if you count a slave that slave is 3/5ths a person in the census. Note the actual amendment doesn't mention "negro" or any racial group but simply refers to an enslaved person. Of course by that time all the slaves in the States were black (since originally there were white slaves).
Again the 3/5ths Amendment was created to limit the power of the Democrats who were the slave owners! Unfortunately, as my black friends have shown me, the Democratic Party has found ways to enslave the minds of many black Americans.
Wasn't the Republican Party founded in 1854, and the Democratic Party in 1828? That's long after the Three Fifths Compromise of 1787. It’s true that the Democratic Party was the pro-slavery party in the 19th century, but I don’t think either party was around during the time period being discussed.
3/5th was actually a good deal in context for white slaveowners for on the flip side, they risked not getting ANY recognition of the black slave population. That they got 3/5th out of the deadlock was a victory for them. If no slaves were counted, then the northern states would have had that much more power, and southern representation and slave power, correspondingly restricted. [/QB]
what do you mean "slave power" ?
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Slave power as in the Southerners use of slave numbers to gain dominant white legislative representation. Said legislatures of course would be based on race- practically only free white males need apply. Hence an interesting irony: the disenfranchised black body count would be used to elect only white people.
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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Meanwhile, moving back to the original topic...
As long as popular media (and even media made by people who should know better) keeps misrepresenting ancient Egyptian people and culture, and as long as their phenotype and biological affinities remain a topic of contention (in no small part due to rampant anti-Blackness as well as various ethno-nationalist agendas), we're going to keep having these discussions. It sucks, as there's so much more to any culture past or present than what its people look like, but that is the racialized world we live in.
That being said, we could certainly pay more attention to other facets of ancient African history. For example, maybe look into how the Nile Valley civilizations influenced others both within and without Africa? The Nile must have always been a corridor linking inner Africa to the Mediterranean world and beyond. Surely there were at least a few cultural aspects that flowed downriver and then spread out of Africa to influence the rest of the world, in a way that could mirror the dispersal of modern humans out of the continent.
quote:Originally posted by BrandonP: Wasn't the Republican Party founded in 1854, and the Democratic Party in 1828? That's long after the Three Fifths Compromise of 1787. It’s true that the Democratic Party was the pro-slavery party in the 19th century, but I don’t think either party was around during the time period being discussed.
LOL You're right. I've been so used to today's parties taking credit for their predecessor/ancestors that they've become synonymous. The parties descend from older parties. The Republican Party was founded by members of the Whig Party while the Democratic Party was founded by members of the Democratic Republicans. It's funny because the so-called Founding Fathers of America were against political parties due to interests of the party instead of interests of the citizens (which has long been happening) and thus inter-party conflicts or even intra-party conflicts that lead to splitting off and formation of new parties.
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by BrandonP: Meanwhile, moving back to the original topic...
As long as popular media (and even media made by people who should know better) keeps misrepresenting ancient Egyptian people and culture, and as long as their phenotype and biological affinities remain a topic of contention (in no small part due to rampant anti-Blackness as well as various ethno-nationalist agendas), we're going to keep having these discussions. It sucks, as there's so much more to any culture past or present than what its people look like, but that is the racialized world we live in.
That being said, we could certainly pay more attention to other facets of ancient African history. For example, maybe look into how the Nile Valley civilizations influenced others both within and without Africa? The Nile must have always been a corridor linking inner Africa to the Mediterranean world and beyond. Surely there were at least a few cultural aspects that flowed downriver and then spread out of Africa to influence the rest of the world, in a way that could mirror the dispersal of modern humans out of the continent.
Not only that, but [white] academia keeps discussing the 'race' of the Egyptians but in a roundabout way via skeletal morphology and especially genetics. With the latter they're now resorting to autosomal profiling with a "Eurasian" identity. Obviously they can no longer rely on uniparentals since the paternal E and maternal L are blatantly African.
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: [white] academia keeps discussing the 'race' of the Egyptians but in a roundabout way via skeletal morphology and especially genetics. With the latter they're now resorting to autosomal profiling with a "Eurasian" identity. Obviously they can no longer rely on uniparentals since the paternal E and maternal L are blatantly African.
So of the mummies that have been tested how many are E and how many are L ?
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^ Actually I was referring to modern populations living in the areas that were centers of ancient Egypt, but I do believe the same is true with mummies. I don't know if it was Beyoku or someone else who posted a list of results of genomic tests on mummies.
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Not only that, but [white] academia keeps discussing the 'race' of the Egyptians but in a roundabout way via skeletal morphology and especially genetics. With the latter they're now resorting to autosomal profiling with a "Eurasian" identity. Obviously they can no longer rely on uniparentals since the paternal E and maternal L are blatantly African.
I remember a lecture I heard with Swedish paleogeneticist Anders Götherström who said that he regarded autosomal DNA as being a much more powerful tool than only uniparental DNA. But in his lecture he talked in the context of Northern Europe, not Africa.
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 2684 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
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quote:Originally posted by Yonis: Look here another forum concerning Ancient Egypt i just found, http://forum.egyptiandreams.co.uk/ these people here are interested genuinly about Pharaonic Egypt, they barely ever discuss social contructs such as "race", they are real passionate about Ancient Egypt and its people, Religion, culture etc. Its these people who will take over Egyptology later and become the next generation experts on Egypt and controll the information flow, maybe then you'll still be debating and arguing with the information they release.
lol 2. The "Egyptian Dreams" website has been defunct for some time now. Maybe they are coming back, but if they be the "next generation" these self-styled "purists" have been long missing in action..
As regards WF Petrie, he is a product of his time as far as racial approaches but his pioneering sterling work in the field cannot be denied. Interestingly, his data found several similarities between AE culture and the fellow African cultures near to Egypt.
quote: Actually race has been a significant part of Egyptology since its beginning. WF Petrie father of Egyptology, put forward several racial theories, correlating his widely used dating method with the "rise and fall" of various races in AE. He was also influenced by racial eugenics guru Francis Dalton.
" Petrie championed a technique for relative dating that correlated the ‘rise-floruit-fall’ patterns (Silberman 1999:76) in stratified pottery sequences with the grand cycles of the rising and falling vigor of races responsible for them. The racial component of Petrie’s methodology was explicit and he frequently complemented his artifactual analyses with considerations of ethnic physiognomies. To this end, Petrie carried out photography of exhumed remains, live subjects, and ancient portraiture in order to study facial features as an avenue to understanding the past. He maintained, for example, that the thirteenth dynasty Egyptian ruler ‘Mermashau’ had ‘a high face of coarser type, with high cheekbones, quite unlike any of the earlier statues of kings, and suggesting a foreigner who had risen to be a general and thence reached the throne’ (Petrie 1939:139). Petrie’s approach to biological variability can be attributed to the influence of Sir Francis Galton, the father of Eugenics."
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Originally posted by zarahan aka Enrique Cardova: lol 2. The "Egyptian Dreams" website has been defunct for some time now. Maybe they are coming back, but if they be the "next generation" these self-styled "purists" have been long missing in action..
I visited them sometime in late January, seems they disappeared sometimes after that. At that time they stated:
quote:Posts regarding the racial origins of the ancient Egyptians, i.e. were they black - were they white, are not welcome here and will likely be locked or deleted. Why? Because they always end up bringing out the lunatics, fringe theorists and general nut cases and invariably end up in racist flame wars. In an ideal world it would be great to have a civilised discussion about the origins of the ancient Egyptian race. Unfortunately we don't live in an ideal world. Thank you for your understanding.
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 2684 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
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quote:Originally posted by BrandonP: Meanwhile, moving back to the original topic...
As long as popular media (and even media made by people who should know better) keeps misrepresenting ancient Egyptian people and culture, and as long as their phenotype and biological affinities remain a topic of contention (in no small part due to rampant anti-Blackness as well as various ethno-nationalist agendas), we're going to keep having these discussions. It sucks, as there's so much more to any culture past or present than what its people look like, but that is the racialized world we live in.
That being said, we could certainly pay more attention to other facets of ancient African history. For example, maybe look into how the Nile Valley civilizations influenced others both within and without Africa? The Nile must have always been a corridor linking inner Africa to the Mediterranean world and beyond. Surely there were at least a few cultural aspects that flowed downriver and then spread out of Africa to influence the rest of the world, in a way that could mirror the dispersal of modern humans out of the continent.
Not only that, but [white] academia keeps discussing the 'race' of the Egyptians but in a roundabout way via skeletal morphology and especially genetics. With the latter they're now resorting to autosomal profiling with a "Eurasian" identity. Obviously they can no longer rely on uniparentals since the paternal E and maternal L are blatantly African.
The shenanigans with the Abusir aDna being a prime example of this.
[White] academia conveniently has a term that purports to be geographical or anthropological in nature that just so happens line up quite well with one conventional racial category in particular. Makes it easy to talk about race in certain contexts while maintaining the veneer that race is not what’s being discussed.
Almost like a dog whistle.
-------------------- "One dog ain't enough, and two is too low" - Three Dog
quote:Originally posted by zarahan aka Enrique Cardova: As regards WF Petrie, he is a product of his time as far as racial approaches but his pioneering sterling work in the field cannot be denied. Interestingly, his data found several similarities between AE culture and the fellow African cultures near to Egypt.
Would be nice to know which other African cultures Petrie was describing here.
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This post I saw on Twitter today represents one reason this topic continues to be a thorn in my side. So many fucking history nerds, even the ones who mean to be anti-racist, keep asserting shit like this:
quote:Originally posted by zarahan aka Enrique Cardova: As regards WF Petrie, he is a product of his time as far as racial approaches but his pioneering sterling work in the field cannot be denied. Interestingly, his data found several similarities between AE culture and the fellow African cultures near to Egypt.
Would be nice to know which other African cultures Petrie was describing here.
Petrie did most of his work using areas closely linked to Egypt further south, which would be heavily Nubia (overlapping into what is Southern Egypt today) and overlapping into what is today's Sudan. A few of his articles published includes the title "Egypt in Africa." See: bibliography of Petrie's work below. https://www.jstor.org/stable/543795
Petrie held strong "racial" views and was closely linked with eugenicist guru Francis Dalton. The article below examines Petrie's racial approach using the thousands of objects in Petrie museums and collections. Petrie's "race model" claims were challenged by several of his colleagues including well known names such as Guy Brunton and Gertrude Caton-Thompson, who had worked alongside Brunton to excavate Badari. Using the same data they found supposed "incoming Caucasoid races" to be nothing of the sort, but most likely indigenous developments in the region. Note these critiques are by his own contemporaries long ago, not strawman (or bogeyman) "Afrocentrics."
It is amusing to see the desperate "3d" tactics deployed in some quarters (Denial, Downplay, Deception): from "stealth" removal of legitimate references by Wikipedia moles, to would-be discussion "bans" where even credible mainstream scholars become, apparently, part of a dastardly "fringe" of mysterious "Afrocentrism" (roll ominous musics..), for their crime of studying or demonstrating Egypt in an African context.
Ironically, Petrie's racial theories were in part undermined by his own data as others like Brunton, using the same data, drew altogether more different and ultimately more credible conclusions, than the dozens of different "races" Petrie claimed to be finding. None of the above of course can deny that in many cases where the data was dealt with in a more objective and balanced way, that Petrie did pioneering work.
Some of Petrie's data is also reflected in studies of Egyptian religion, and that too, shows African influences per conservative scholars.
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Originally posted by BrandonP: I gave my earlier "chillin'" Cleopatra's shirt a darker shade of blue to make her stand out more from my depiction of Hypatia of Alexandria. Plus, I think darker blue is more Egyptian-esque than lighter blue.
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quote:Originally posted by One Third African: And for this week's "Throwback Thursday", here's my reinterpretation of Michelangelo's David from 2017:
what's this all about ?
this is like Clyde on steroids with a paintbrush
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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^ And why did Lioness have to post that nude pic of all your works?!
Anyway, Yonis topic question has been answered. It's past 2020 yet race is not only discussed here in this forum but again academia keeps bringing it up and in a rather dishonest way. It's as I said many times before. Academia has resurrected the 'Hamitic Hypothesis' and is trying to use genetics to support their questionable claims.
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ And why did Lioness have to post that nude pic of all your works?!
It's an Africanized version of Michelangelo's David that I drew back in 2017. I thought it would be fun to do an Africanized version of one of the Western canon's most famous sculptures. I don't actually think the Biblical David, had he existed at all, would have necessarily looked like that (he probably also would have also something like a tunic at least).
I actually did draw another version of Michelangelo's David that is not nude later on:
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why would you make Michelangelo's David black? what is the purpose of it ? why these games?
quote:Originally posted by BrandonP:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: what's this all about ?
Yeah, good question. What the fuck does your trolling my art have to do with the thread topic?
quote:Originally posted by BrandonP: It's an Africanized version of Michelangelo's David that I drew back in 2017. I thought it would be fun to do an Africanized version of one of the Western canon's most famous sculptures.
quote:Originally posted by BrandonP: The archaeologist Latonya Coleman is giving her colleague and boyfriend Scott Jones an affectionate kiss. Scott may not have the same appetite for dangerous adventure as his girlfriend, but they do share a passion for studying the ancient past. Brought to you by
quote:Originally posted by BrandonP: I did this simple “pin-up” of an unnamed African-American woman bending over with her hands on her thighs because, well, that sort of stuff is always fun to draw. Brought to you by Brandon S. Pilcher
quote:Originally posted by BrandonP: Yusuf ibn Tashufin (1061-1106 AD) was a ruler of the Muslim Almoravid Empire, which he and his cousin Abu Bakr spread from the Senegal River in West Africa all the way up to what are now Morocco and Algeria. Under Yusuf's leadership, the Almoravids even crossed the Strait of Gibraltar and took control of Muslim Spain, and Yusuf even defeated the Christian king Alfonso VI of Castile at the battle of Sagrajas in 1086 AD. Pictured alongside him here is his wife and queen Zaynab an-Nafzawiyyah, with whom he would have shared power as if she were a co-ruler. They are known to have produced at least three sons together, one of whom was Yusuf's successor Ali ibn Yusuf.
Man, did this attract unwanted attention today on Facebook. One of the comments I had to delete:
Women of the Plains, my prehistoric fiction novel »
A couple of Thursdays ago, I completed the first draft of another novel titled Women of the Plains. It's a prehistoric-fiction tale set in eastern Africa around 100,000 years ago, with the characters all being Homo sapiens prior to the "Out of Africa" migrations.
The protagonist is Oja, a woman from a culture of politically egalitarian, nomadic hunter-gatherers. After she gets separated from her band as a result of a hunting accident, she is starved for companionship until she stumbles upon another, different culture of people who live in a permanent village alongside a river and have developed a more hierarchical political structure. As she struggles to assimilate into this new culture and their way of life, her best friends Uru and Namak go out looking for her, hoping to return her to their old band.
After I make the necessary revisions, the novel should be coming out sometime in the spring of 2023. In the meantime, enjoy this reference sheet showing off the three leading ladies!
quote:Originally posted by BrandonP: It's an Africanized version of Michelangelo's David that I drew back in 2017. I thought it would be fun to do an Africanized version of one of the Western canon's most famous sculptures.
quote:Originally posted by BrandonP:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: what's this all about ?
Yeah, good question. What the fuck does your trolling my art have to do with the thread topic?
What you do is all about race and that is the topic We do a lot of debate about historical accuracy on this website but you have this ongoing thread called
"Promoting my art again (for sale on Redbubble)"
The forum is Hetheru's Corner Discussing all forms of entertainment. Movies, Music, DVDs, Books and Games.
but this stickied thread is promoting products for sale and you're also moderating there so you can delete comments if they are bad for business. That's conflict of interest
It should be in a separate forum for Promoting products for sale
Anyway this art is mainly devoted to your fetish for black women The problem is to try to justify that you try to add history to it
quote:Originally posted by BrandonP: It's an Africanized version of.....
you play this race game on facebook and other social media blackenizing a lot of stuff, purposely trying to get a racist reaction
And you get these racist reactions so you can position yourself has champion for blacks Not that that is not good but what is the motive? The motive is that you are doing this so black people don't get mad about your ongoing sexual objectification of black women and sex fetish for them, category: exploitation
so it's very racial and the whole thing is being sold for money
I don't think it should be on this site, it's purposely instigating racist reaction to try to justify a racial sex fetish, if not there should be a separate forum for "Member's sites and Sales Promotions"
I think if it's going to be somewhere it should be on a black pin-up comics and cartoons site, this historical stuff you try to mix in is corrupted by your fetish and it's misinforming people. If soft porn is going to be in an historical setting it should obvious that it is just costuming and not trying to pretend to be something valid historically at the same time, that's the problem
You are trying to protect yourself as a pin up artist of black women by patronizing black people at the same time as if to say "I hope none of you don't get mad that black women are sex objects to me but look black people look, I'm "Africanizing" history for you also"
If anything is racial on ES, this is definitely an example
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Askia_The_Great: Yes, lets STAY on topic. What does Brandon art have to do with this thread?
Everything obviously because his art is all about race and it's on ES and he uses it to provoke people racially. sshhh, don't mention the elephant in the room
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by BrandonP: This post I saw on Twitter today represents one reason this topic continues to be a thorn in my side. So many fucking history nerds, even the ones who mean to be anti-racist, keep asserting shit like this:
“AE’s don’t fit into our modern concept of race”
“I mean i guess if we’re taking that approach i can ag—“
“They definitely weren’t Black though”
“…. but i thought you just sai-“
“Unlike the Nubians, who DEFINITELY WERE BLACK”
I guess our modern concept of race ceases to be anachronistic once you cross the first cataract. Very suspicious.
Maybe they feel that by also specifying how AE’s weren’t white either, that it somehow makes their position more moderate (and therefore more “sensible” or “accurate”) as if they’re both equally ridiculous claims.
But yeah, like you said, it’s pretty clear that discussions over the race of Ancient Egyptians aren’t likely to be going away anytime soon.
Sidenote: The mention’s under that tweet are a lot better than I’m accustomed to, and i can say i feel like i’ve seen more people on the web in recent years who are open to the idea that Egyptian Civilization could even be associated with “Blackness”.
-------------------- "One dog ain't enough, and two is too low" - Three Dog
quote:Originally posted by BrandonP: This post I saw on Twitter today represents one reason this topic continues to be a thorn in my side. So many fucking history nerds, even the ones who mean to be anti-racist, keep asserting shit like this:
“AE’s don’t fit into our modern concept of race”
“I mean i guess if we’re taking that approach i can ag—“
“They definitely weren’t Black though”
“…. but i thought you just sai-“
“Unlike the Nubians, who DEFINITELY WERE BLACK”
I guess our modern concept of race ceases to be anachronistic once you cross the first cataract. Very suspicious.
Maybe they feel that by also specifying how AE’s weren’t white either, that it somehow makes their position more moderate (and therefore more “sensible” or “accurate”) as if they’re both equally ridiculous claims.
But yeah, like you said, it’s pretty clear that discussions over the race of Ancient Egyptians aren’t likely to be going away anytime soon.
Sidenote: The mention’s under that tweet are a lot better than I’m accustomed to, and i can say i feel like i’ve seen more people on the web in recent years who are open to the idea that Egyptian Civilization could even be associated with “Blackness”.
I'm looking at this image form "Bad History Takes" it says "Most ancient Egyptians weren't black" , though there was a significant Nubian influence at one point"
You have in quotes: “They definitely weren’t Black though”
what is this quote from?
It's better to not use "white" or "black" in anthropology in general, these terms have no standard
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Clearly none of the quotes are real, it’s hyperbole meant to simulate my general feeling of these types of statements.
Saying “Most AE’s weren’t black, though there was significant Nubian influence at one point” seems like a roundabout way to say AE’s weren’t black, by associating “Blackness” with Nubian (and thus “foreign”) identity. The wording also leads me to believe they’re probably referring to the 25th Dynasty as well, but I could be wrong about that.
The last part about anthropology is weird given the topic of thread.
-------------------- "One dog ain't enough, and two is too low" - Three Dog
The vast majority, upward of 90% of modern Egyptians are considered to be Arab. It would be fair to guess many might have some percentage of Ancient Egyptian ancestry. I don't know what Derenic Byrd's ancestry is. He may or may not have ancestors were from Kemet. He seems to dislike Arabs though, purposely instigating here. probably mad Kevin Hart got cancelled in Egypt but if so, he should have said so. I have a new post with some background information on that: posted 08 March, 2023, 12:40 PM
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Like I said STAY on topic. Brandan's artwork has nothing to do with this thread. Last warning.Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014
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