posted
The madness continues. Please see also Rasol's thread re: Interview with Kola Boof.
quote:Arab Gunmen Kill Hundreds of Villagers in Chad Published: November 15, 2006
DAKAR, Senegal, Nov. 14 — Hundreds of Chadians have been killed by roving groups of Arab gunmen in dozens of villages over the past 10 days, according to aid workers and human rights officials along Chad ’s troubled border with Sudan . At least 220 people have been killed, and dozens of wounded people have overwhelmed small, poorly equipped local hospitals, the United Nations said Tuesday. Chad’s government has declared a state of emergency over the attacks and has accused Sudan, its neighbor to the east, of fomenting a crisis in Chad. “By exporting its Darfur conflict to Chad, Sudan wants to weaken Chad by making different Chadian communities fight each other,” Hourmadji Moussa Doumgor, a government spokesman, told The Associated Press on Monday. “All this is to prepare the ground for a large-scale war.” For more than two years, Chad and Sudan have traded accusations about support for insurgents across their shared border. Sudan is fighting non-Arab rebel groups in the western region of Darfur that seek greater autonomy, while Chad is fighting rebels seeking to overthrow the government of President Idriss Déby. The conflict in Darfur, which pits the non-Arab tribes against the Arab-dominated government, has been marked by brutal intertribal violence in which the Sudanese government has armed Arab militias to fight the non-Arab insurgents. At least 200,000 people have died, and more than two million have been driven from their homes. That ethnic warfare has spilled over into Chad, inspiring copycat violence among Chadian Arabs and cross-border raids on villages by Sudanese militias. The recent violence has been particularly brutal. One man’s eyes were gouged out with bayonets, said David Buchbinder, a researcher with Human Rights Watch who is traveling in the region affected by the attacks. Two women were burned alive in their hut, he said. “It is extremely horrific violence,” Mr. Buchbinder said. “It is as if it is driven by hatred. It is a coordinated action over a large part of eastern Chad, and not always with theft as a motive. Sometimes the motive is only to kill.” The attacks represent a sharp escalation of the violence in the volatile region around Darfur and threaten to further destabilize one of the most dangerous and lawless corners of the world. The attacks appear to be the work of Arab militias from both sides of the Chad-Sudan border, and because they are occurring deep inside Chad, about 60 miles from the border, the violence is particularly ominous. While the initial clashes between non-Arab villagers and Arab raiders appeared to involve mainly local tribes, the fresh set of attacks appears to be linked directly to the fighting in Darfur and involves a mix of Chadian and Sudanese Arabs. But even that distinction is largely academic — the porous border has little meaning for most villagers, who move back and forth freely. The United Nations Security Council has approved a United Nations peacekeeping force to stanch the violence spreading out of Darfur and replace the largely ineffective and undermanned African Union force currently working there. But Sudan has adamantly refused to allow the new force to deploy. The United Nations plans to convene a high-level meeting on Thursday in Addis Ababa, Ethiopia, the headquarters of the African Union, to discuss ways to end the violence.
I've noticed that these "arabs" who exercise these atrocities both in Darfur and now Chad don't even look such as those in northern sudan, but they all look west african. The janjaawed don't look northern sudanese at all imo. It seems that these people take their "arabness" a little bit too far, they need to chill, lol
quote:I've noticed that these "arabs" who exercise these atrocities both in Darfur and now Chad don't even look such as those in northern sudan, but they all look west african
Sudanese Arabs look 'west african' (?)
It's also misguided to post the pictures of those women and associate them with "atrocities."
In fact Yonis, your comments become more and more bizarre, and less serious with each posts.
No wonder you keep using the emoticon.
Which translate as....just being silly again, desparate for attention....please ignore me.Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
stop distorting, your acting like a troll now. i said the janjaawed look west african (from the pics i've seen )they look no different than darfurians, they are just darfurians who've learned arabic. I didnt say northern sudanese "arabs" look west african.
quote:It's also misguided to post the pictures of those women and associate them with "atrocities."
The women are chadian arabs, i didnt associate them with atrocities, just wanted to show how chadian arabs look like, some people might think they look like iraqi type arabs, which would be false. i know alot of Americans think the sudanese arabs look like Iraqi arabs, due to the skewed media coverage.
And for your comment on my use of the smileys are just rediculous, as usual when you don't agree on something you attack on irrelevant issues Quite typical on your behaviour, they have a function and are there to be used, the programmers of this forum didn't put them there for decoration, if you don't like them then don't use them, but i like them, so back off, maybe you should try to adress the thread instead.
Posts: 1420 | Registered: May 2005
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All lies come on i have lived in Sudan this is Israeli American Propoganda to Dehumanize the Arabs/Muslims i see alot of u keep posting this trash inorder to make it seem as if blacks are being treated like **** by Arabs this is Yehudi/Zionist false flags.
I hope u guys stop these Arab Hating Posts dont u see there are more Arabs in Eritrea & Ethiopia than in Sudan Chad & Somalia put together and they have lived side by side with no problems come on Muhammed pbuh said 9 out of 10 of the mightest men come from Ethiopia this is not the Words of a Racist Arab Prophet Muhammed was a True ARab who loved his African Brothers come on His BestFriend was Bilal the Ethiopian the women who raised the prophet Muhammed was a Ethiopian women. There is more evidence pointing to good relations between Arabs and Ethiopians.
-------------------- Hikuptah Al-Masri Posts: 526 | From: Aswan Egypt | Registered: Jun 2006
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Bilal was a man, but where do you get the silly idea that there are more Arabs in Ethiopia and Eritrea than elsewhere? There are probably no more than 1000 in Ethiopia and 20,000 Rasha'ida in Eritrea (immigrants from Saudi Arabia, from which they were expelled in 1846).
-------------------- "Oh the sons of Ethiopia; observe with care; the country called Ethiopia is, first, your mother; second, your throne; third, your wife; fourth, your child; fifth, your grave." - Ras Alula Aba Nega. Posts: 1024 | Registered: Jun 2006
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Are you disregarding the suffering of whole groups of people because of your religion? I am not here to debate the merits of any religion. My point is that people ARE suffering at the hands of other people, be it Muslims or whomever. The Tutsis and the Hutus of Rwanda originally lived side by side without discord. I don't believe what you said about neigboring groups living together holds any water when it comes to whether or not those groups can turn hostile toward each other.
Posts: 34 | From: Lurkerville | Registered: Oct 2006
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Yom were do u get your information from there are more arabs in ERitrea & Ethiopia than there are in Sudan. Yom read what i wrote there are more Arabs in Eritrea & Ethiopia than Sudan Chad & Somalia put together.
igbogoddess this is nothing knew in AFrica tribes fight eachother and im sorry but all our information is wrong i dont believe nor do i trust american Media which is ran by Zionists so all your articles about Sudanese Arabs killing blacks is all Bullshit propoganda Israel/America Style.
[ 16. November 2006, 11:14 PM: Message edited by: Horus_Den_1 ]
Posts: 526 | From: Aswan Egypt | Registered: Jun 2006
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This thread is not anti-Arab. I view the perpetrators and the victims of these acts as black people. That some black people in Africa identify themselves as Arab is beyond dispute. And although I agree with you that the western press, the American media in particular, may have some interest in distorting the nature of the conflict; the atrocities they're reporting are real enough. That there is a significant element, in these conflicts, of agression by people who embrace an arab identity against people who they deem to be non-arab black I am convinced. You attempt to paint a picture of Arab/Black concord and brotherhood; but this picture founders upon the rock of an inconvenient fact called history. It just ain't so; the teachings of the Prophet Mohammed not withstanding.
I remarked at the beggining of the thread, "The madness continues." It is madness and it is tragedy: no matter how the antagonists identify themselves. Shakespeare observed, in Hamlet, that men will go to war over an eggshell. That countries as poor as Sudan and Chad will waste energy and national resources on ethnic strife, in barren desert wastelands, is tragic confirmation of this.
Posts: 1038 | From: Franklin Park, NJ | Registered: Aug 2005
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Calypso what history are u talking about what do u know about the tribal strife of Sudan u completely think this is AFrican vs Arab dont u and its sad that u are brainwashed into thinking this. U think this is the first time fighting has broken out in Darfur this **** happened before when i was in Eastern Sudan back in 1985 there were fighing between the Fur and the Zaghwa but i dont see none of u talking about that o i forgot u dont get information about AFrica inless your News agency tells u well all Mass Media in America is Garbage and Fake so u can believe what u want but i know the Truth about what is going on in Sudan & Egypt.
-------------------- Hikuptah Al-Masri Posts: 526 | From: Aswan Egypt | Registered: Jun 2006
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^But you cannot ignore the 'Arab' factor involved in this situation! Arabization is very much the root of this problem here! No Jewish/Zionist "propaganda" involved. These are Arab-obsessed black Africans killing their own black African, even Muslim bretheren!
Posts: 26249 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:These are Arab-obsessed black Africans killing their own black African, even Muslim bretheren!
Yes they might be arab-obsessed black africans, but you can't deny that the mainstream western media tries to make it look as if these conflicts are some form of middle eastern (arab) attack on Africa. I have access to fox-news and i can tell you there is a big difference between them and the swedish news television on how they cover the darfur issue. in sweden they always show how the northern sudanese government and people look like when talking about darfur, but i've never seen even once fox-news showing the janjaweed or the northern sudanese, they always only show the darfuarians, their stories, their camps and suffering. The sudanese arab speakers are only presented through words, never have i seen a single picture of El-Bashir(president of sudan) in fox news. This is a direct scheme to deceive the american public, and obviously it seems to work quite well.
Posts: 1420 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: But you cannot ignore the 'Arab' factor involved in this situation!
The purpose of his interventions, as you've no doubt detected is precisely to deflect attention from the issue of Arabisation, which he does not want to deal with.
Hence he continues his bizarre apologia/excuse making....
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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Arabization is not the issue when u speak about darfur and Sudan then if its Arabs vs Africans/Blacks then explain the reason why the Raishaid free lions with the Beja Congress are fighting the government of khartoum its called Marginilize the people of DArfur want to control the oil and resources of Darfur and they want Darfur to be more developed just like the Beja & Raishaida want there regions to be developed the Arabization is bullshit u guys keep showing different articles ran by American/Zionist Media Machines and u want me to believe that garbage im sorry but i know what is going on in darfur and its the same thing that is going on in Ogaden. All of u need to really understand all the opposition the the Sudanese government the Darfur Rebels,Raishaida Rebels,Beja Rebels, Even Southern Sudans Rebel groups all have there bases in Eritrea this is called politics/politricks every one supports the opposition of one another.
Did u guys know that the Sudanese government Blamed the Eritrean Government for DArfur they even blamed the Eritrean government for the Uprising of Beja & Raishaid Come on the DArfur Rebel leaders live in Eritrea so do the Beja.
-------------------- Hikuptah Al-Masri Posts: 526 | From: Aswan Egypt | Registered: Jun 2006
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quote:Arabization is not the issue when u speak about darfur and Sudan then if its Arabs vs Africans/Blacks then explain the reason why the Raishaid free lions with the Beja Congress are fighting the government of khartoum
Broken logic.
- like defending the NAZI's against charges of anti-semitism because they persecuted Poles and invaded Russia and France, and did not *only* kill Jews.
A thinking person realises that the longer the list of victims the more monstrous the regime.
Your peculiar 'defense' of Northern Sudan merely added to the list of their atrocities.
I ask again why any *sane* person would defend this vile racist and self-hating regime?
Saying that they kill Beja and not just Dafurians...is *not* a sane answer.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
Yonis point is a valid one, many Northern Sudanese look like a mix of Western African, Southern Sudanese and Eastern African and some Arab, that's why Ausar often say they look like African American...they are Africans...but it doesn't excuse them from being fascist they still have an Arab ideology, even though they look like that:
They are mixed Africans with a very small amount of Arab blood...for sure they don't look Somali or Oromo...
quote:it doesn't excuse them from being fascist they still have an Arab ideology
correct.
Arabisation, like NAZI-ism *is* a racist ideology.
Aryan Germans are *not* in fact a different *race* than Jewish Germans.
Aryan Germans are hardly any different in appearance than Jewish Germans.
Trying to excuse the Arabs of Sudan based on their appearance makes no sense.
It only further descredits them and reveals the fact that self hatred of their own blackness is a driving force in the racist fanaticism.
The Arabs understand this principal perfectly well...., they reveal this every time they accuse Israel of racism.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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First of all can any of u show me the Sudanese Arab Government and can u show me Arab ideology which governs Sudan.
From everything u brothers & sisters are posting i can tell u dont know nothing about Sudan all u do is quote and post articles written by Zionist/American Media outlets who tell u Arabs are killing Africans what a great story to get all african Americans hating Arabs and it has worked as a Egyptian i have witness more racism ever since this American Staged 9/11 and this Sudan DArfur Arab vs African Bullshit.
Let me tell u something Sudanese as a Whole are not even that Fond of Arabs and if any of u knew anything about Sudanese culture no one says they are Arab every Sudanese is attached to there Tribes the Fur is one the Jaaliyin is another and no one says im from the Arab Tribe they will either tell u Zaghwa or Fur or Jaaliyin and there are many more this is the fight u are seeing not Arabs vs Africans this is One tribe the Fur vs another tribe the Zaghwa and another tribe i forgot the name.
Another thing someone posted those pictures of Al-Mahdi Al-Bashir and Taha the vice president if u really understood Sudanese Culture u would know that Al-Mahdi and BAshir are enemies and Turabi the one behind the ideology of Sudan was arrested by Bashir his own student this is a Power struggle and what there trying to do is get Darfur the same way they were trying to get Southern Sudan for the resources in the area.
CAn any of u come up with any information beside listening and watching your Zionist controlled Media. The people that are being attacked by Arabs is the Fur people did u guys know that alot of the high officials in the socalled Sudanese Arab government u all are talking about are from the Fur tribe.
-------------------- Hikuptah Al-Masri Posts: 526 | From: Aswan Egypt | Registered: Jun 2006
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quote:Another thing someone posted those pictures of Al-Mahdi Al-Bashir and Taha the vice president if u really understood Sudanese Culture u would know that Al-Mahdi and BAshir are enemies and Turabi the one behind the ideology of Sudan was arrested by Bashir his own student this is a Power struggle and what there trying to do is get Darfur the same way they were trying to get Southern Sudan for the resources in the area.
posted
The posters here have shown you some concrete evidence that runs counter to the points that you have made. Could you give us some credible information that would prove what you are saying about the Sudanese government? I would like to have all of the facts, since you say that we are not exposed to it.
Posts: 34 | From: Lurkerville | Registered: Oct 2006
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- like defending the NAZI's against charges of anti-semitism because they persecuted Poles and invaded Russia and France, and did not *only* kill Jews.
A thinking person realises that the longer the list of victims the more monstrous the regime.
Your peculiar 'defense' of Northern Sudan merely added to the list of their atrocities.
I ask again why any *sane* person would defend this vile racist and self-hating regime?
Saying that they kill Beja and not just Dafurians...is *not* a sane answer.
Indeed. Also, the Arab government is not 'racist' towards the Rashaida as they are to their own African brethren.
The Rashaida are just viewed by the government as being unruly tribes who do not submit to federal authority.
The situation with the Rashaida is similar to that of the Persian government and their conflict with the Kurds, even though both groups are equally Iranian.
At least you don't hear northern Sudanese militias raping women and even children (including little boys) of the Rashaida and calling them epithets like 'abid' or 'aswad' (both words used as synonyms of each other!)
Posts: 26249 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Africa: Yonis point is a valid one, many Northern Sudanese look like a mix of Western African, Southern Sudanese and Eastern African and some Arab,...
The question is how much Arab ancestry exists in northern Sudan?
^According to the map above, apparently not much at all since it is not even shown in northern Sudan.
Posts: 26249 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
The Raishaid revolt is nothing different from DArfur did u know that the Darfur Rebels & the Freelions rebels have been training together and they have found the Darfur Rebels all the way in Eritrea on the Border training and attacking government posts this is not about who is black and who is not its about Marginilization the area of Darfur & the Area of Eastern Sudan Kassala is underdeveloped and there is alot of oil in Darfur & EAstern Sudan the tribes of the area want to share the wealth with the other tribes that run the Government. The bases for all of the opposition against the Sudanese government is in Eritrea.
Im not saying that the Khartoum government is Good but the majority of Sudanese will tell u they dont like the government but this is the same threw out the whole world.
One thing u brothers and sisters are forgeting is that mostly all the Sudanese Muslims trace there lineages back to the Prophet Muhammed pbuh this is the same with Muslims in Phillipines Indonesia Malaysia & even India my Family even does the same thing my Uncle claims he is from the Prophet Muhammeds bloodline when really there is no connection he is just a African Egyptian.
-------------------- Hikuptah Al-Masri Posts: 526 | From: Aswan Egypt | Registered: Jun 2006
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quote:Hikuptah wrote: Let me tell u something Sudanese as a Whole are not even that Fond of Arabs and if any of u knew anything about Sudanese culture no one says they are Arab every Sudanese is attached to there Tribes
You don't say! Then how do you explain this:
quote:ARAB SUMMIT CONFERENCE ARAB LEAGUE EIGHTEENTH ORDINARY SESSION KHARTOUM, 28 - 29 March 2006
Khartoum is to host the meetings of the Arab Summit during the coming March 2006.
This is the second time Khartoum hosts the Arab summit, whereas the first time was in 1967, The 1967 summit was one of the most famous Arab summits, known as "the three-No summit" that had wiped the tears and healed the wounds of July War, restored self-confidence for the Arab nation, narrowed the differences of the Arab Leaders and secured the will of endurance in confrontation for both the Arab States and the Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO) alike.
quote:Originally posted by Africa: Yonis point is a valid one, many Northern Sudanese look like a mix of Western African, Southern Sudanese and Eastern African and some Arab,...
The question is how much Arab ancestry exists in northern Sudan?
^According to the map above, apparently not much at all since it is not even shown in northern Sudan.
posted
Northern Sudanese consider themselves ''Arabs'' but not in the same sense as a Gulf Arab. Lot of people that claim desent from prophet Muhammed are known as Ashraf in Egypt and in Upper Egypt consider themselves better than both the fellahin and Arabs.
Calyso,Look up a group in northern Sudan called the Sayyids which formed the elite of Sudan in the 1800's- early 1900's. Most of the Sayyids considered themselves Arabs.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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Good stuff ya'll. Hikuptah, you are cool man. I like your style, and search for truth, etc. So don't take it personal, but I disagree with you. I agree that greater attention is focused upon the conflict in Sudan than in Congo or other places in Africa: I agree. I agree that AMerican media does portray Northern Sudanese as being "gulf" type of Arabs, and hence us Americans don't often realize the that Arabs of the Sudan are Black people in acutuality. I agree with you concerning the propoganda.
However, you cannot deny that the conflict in Sudan is about, in large part, the ideology of "Arabization". This is the truth. Hikuptah, you want proof? Read the book, "War of Visions" by Francis Deng(I think his first name is "Francis", his last name is definitely Deng...........and I believe that I am pretty close to the acutual title of the book). He suggests in the book that Northern Sudanese may in fact have psychological issues concerning how they claim to be Arab, but often time being very dark-skinned..........
Hikuptah, these are facts. V.S. Naipual traveled to Africa back in the day. He was on the coast of Kenya, and he met an Arab boy who said, "'These people are mad at us. They said that we took Black Men from the interior and sold them as slaves'. I looked this this boy who dark skin and curly hair and realized that in this part of the world, being Arab was not a skin color, but a state of mind." V.S. Naipual wrote that Hikuptah.
Don't be distressed cause obviously there are good people in every land. You are a cool individual Hikuptah. But maybe it might be good if you took a look at these issues just a little bit deeper. You cool in my book Hikuptah. YOur my Egyptian brother. Salaam
Posts: 826 | From: U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2006
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Arabs of Sudan are killing the African Blacks of Sudan NO THIS IS WRONG.
THE FUNNY THING IS THAT U ALL THINK THIS IS THE FIRST TIME SOMETHING LIKE DARFUR HAS HAPPENED IN SUDAN NO THIS IS NORMAL TRIBAL FIGHTS WERE DO U SEE ARABS KILLING AFRICANS ALL I SEE IS AFRICANS KILLING AFRICANS BUT U ALL WANT IT TO BE ARABS KILLING AFRICANS BECAUSE U ALL REALLY DONT LIKE ARABS I HAVE NOTICED THE WAY U ALL POST WHEN IT COMES TO ARABS.
COME ON BEFORE U ALL WORRY ABOUT SUDAN WHY DONT U WORRY ABOUT THE SELF HATRED OF BLACKNESS AMONGST AFRICAN AMERICANS THEY DESPISE KINKY HAIR AND BLACKSKIN FIRST FIX YOUR OWN RACIAL PROBLEMS BEFORE U TALK ABOUT SUDAN.
TRIBAL WARS ARE ALL PART OF AFRICA AND STOP TRYING TO MAKE THE SUDANESE TRIBAL WAR INTO SOME AFRICAN ARAB BULLSHIT I DONT NEED ANY OF U TO TELL ME WHAT IS GOING ON IN SUDAN I ALREADY KNOW ZIONIST PIGS THATS WHATS GOING ON.
-------------------- Hikuptah Al-Masri Posts: 526 | From: Aswan Egypt | Registered: Jun 2006
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quote:COME ON BEFORE U ALL WORRY ABOUT SUDAN WHY DONT U WORRY ABOUT THE SELF HATRED OF BLACKNESS AMONGST AFRICAN AMERICANS THEY DESPISE KINKY HAIR AND BLACKSKIN FIRST FIX YOUR OWN RACIAL PROBLEMS BEFORE U TALK ABOUT SUDAN.
In a book about Sudan written by a Sudanese woman Salma Ahmed Nageeb you find this:
quote:Another powerful theme which stands out in this book is the obsession with race and visual appearance which is intimately connected with class relations in central urban Sudan. Looking like an African is bad; looking lighter is good, and the visual markers of skin color and hair texture define who is an "Arab" (good) and who is not (bad). Those who look more African are considered to be of a lower rank. Those from the far west of Sudan are not vested with the prominent title of "Arab," rather they are merely referred to as "Westerners" (in itself a derogatory term). In the case of one young woman, whose father was a Westerner (a Rizeiqat) she stated: "Alhamdullillah, my hair is okay and I have got all the right features from my mother, but I am dark, thanks be to my father [sarcastically]. Who would want to marry one with such a color? Every man wants safra. I myself use all these creams to find a man with a light skin color. If I stayed dark do you think a light man would want his children to be 'dirtied'...?" According to the practice of skin bleaching, it is important to bleach out the African blackness of the skin so as to be viewed as an "Arab" Sudanese. In the meantime, the sellers of the skin-bleaching creams impress upon their female clients that "what is important is that your face should not look dark. You know I feel pity for women whose faces are dark. Excuse me, but what is the difference between their faces and shoes?" (p. 76)
I'm sure we can find similar evidence of self hatred in Egypt, Libya, Saudi Arabia, etc, etc, throughout the ARab world.
The very fact that so many Africans in Sudan, Egypt, Libya, Somalia, etc are so willing to identify themselves as Arabs instead of with their, more ancient, African cultures is again testament to their self hatred.
The fact that you constantly resort to anti-zionist screed shows that you share the Pan-Arab obsession with Palestine. The tragic situation in Palestine, however, does not lead to sympathy with others similarly placed - such as the Darfurians. Instead you lie about it and think if you scream the lie loud enough you can convince others.
BTW you wrote yesterday that I'm brainwashed and get my info from the western media. Where do you suggest I turn to for an objective free press: Cairo, Khartoum, or perhaps Damascus?
Posts: 1038 | From: Franklin Park, NJ | Registered: Aug 2005
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The link you provided was not representative of a sample. It was one woman who happened to have phenotype that stood out! A better represnetative would be to have her whole family represneted to show the genetic variability that is present is certain populations. The rest of the audience was more of a homogenous group that the individual sample! The Chadian 'Arabs' were more Muslim than Arab! With the ethos of Al-Arabiyya, the fellows are 'Arab' but culturally and ethnically, they are NOT Arab.
Posts: 1290 | From: usa | Registered: May 2005
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Alot of the Arab/Islam on this group stems from people whose lives revolve around Ancient Egypt and EgyptSearch. I mean just look at the number of posts some of these people have since they registered. One of these obsessive people isn't even of African descent. That is why there is an obsession with them and why their brains fall for the media tricks.
Ancient Egypt was taken over by the Greeks, Romans, and Turks as well.
* The different tribes have been fighting each other for centuries.
* There is a civil war taking place.
* Both nomads and farmers are in refugee camps.
* Arab Sudanese government officials have declared themselves African on numerous occasions.
(Saying that the a joint U.N. force should be commanded by an African; (President Bashir)that the treaty with the Beja was an example of how Africans can solve their own problems; (Vice President Ali Osman) saying that both sides in the civil war are the same color.
People should have better things to do than worry about what someone calls himself.
Posts: 76 | Registered: Apr 2006
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One and Done, this message board is about ancient Egypt so what do you expect people to focus on and talk about?
I donot place the blame exclusively upon Arabization but also Western influence as well. You will find alot of the anti-African influence in Sudan and Egypt comes from western influence as well as Arabization.
You point about Greeks,Romans,Turks and others ruling and invading ancient Egypt is a key point I emphasize and include in the history of Egypt. Most posters on this board are not really focused on this period nor fully understand the era.
I am also not anti-Arab because i acknowledge both the plight of the Palestineans as well as those who are victims of Arabization. Zionism,Arabization and Racism are all false idealologies I abhor.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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Pan-Arab obsession with Palestine Calypso what do u mean by this I'm with the Freedom of Palestine till the day i die I'm Not Free Until my Palestinian Brothers are Free and if u feel this is Arabization then Al-Hamdullah I will Be That.
I agree with Ausar and im glad as a Saeedi Egyptian that he is for the plight of My Palestinian Brothers and Inshallah Hureyaa Al-Hizb Palestine.
-------------------- Hikuptah Al-Masri Posts: 526 | From: Aswan Egypt | Registered: Jun 2006
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I mentioned the book, "War of Visions" by Francis Deng. Again, I state that he suggested that much of the Northern Sudanese psychology may in fact be infected with an anti-Black sentiment, but it is indeed a psychological imbalance because many of the Northerners are in fact Black people................
You asked for evidence Hikuptah: there it is! Read it for yourself............The author, judging by his last name, is Dinka. Hence, he is a southerner representing the South Sudan. Now you tell me that what he researched was a Zionist conspiracy.............please don't be silly enough to believe that. The government in Sudan murdered two million people in the South. Hence, don't talk to me about Zionist conspiracy! Tell the government in Sudan to stop killing people, and then we can talk about Zionist conspiracies......
It really upsets me that people in the Muslim world don't look themselves in the mirror and say, "Ok, what have we done to contribute to our present state"? Why not? Tell me, do you think the Sudanese government's murder of two million people pales next to Zionism???????????? Ok, at best, a few hundred Palestianians die during a given year. In Darfur, hundreds of thousands of people were killed in no time................Which situation is worse? Why don't Arabs clean up their own backyard?
And Hikuptah, don't tell me that I don't know what I am talking about. I was totally open-minded about stuff in the Arab world. I was proud that Anwar Sadat, a Black Man, was president of Egypt. I read his autobiography. I boasted to my father, "This Black Man was present of modern Egypt. The people accepted him and race wasn't a factor....". And my father immediately said, "Yeah right". I was shocked that he didn't believe me, but when I inquired, sho nuff, this dude was made fun of by his opponents for being half-Black.........That made me realize that there are issues in the Arab world that haven't been dealt with. I am not saying that racism is intitutional in the Arab world. I know that most people are cool people. But I am making an observation that cannot be overlooked, that there are issues concerning race in the Arab world, and that is a major reason for the conflict in Sudan today..........
Hikuptah, instead of being defensive, you ought to check it out yourself. I am not tripping on stuff. I am aware that the majority of slaves in the Islamic world were of Turkish origin, etc. But there are some serious issues concerning race that cannot be seperated from the conflict in Sudan..........then again, should I call it race? Zaid, the adopted son of Muhammad, was pure Arab, and very Black-skinned. It is the same today: there are many Arabs who are Black...........but I hope you understand what I mean.......I am saying that there are issues of skin color in the Arab world. Open your mind, and you might acutually find freedom. Salaam
Posts: 826 | From: U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2006
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Pan-Arab obsession with Palestine Calypso what do u mean by this I'm with the Freedom of Palestine till the day i die I'm Not Free Until my Palestinian Brothers are Free and if u feel this is Arabization then Al-Hamdullah I will Be That.
I agree with Ausar and im glad as a Saeedi Egyptian that he is for the plight of My Palestinian Brothers and Inshallah Hureyaa Al-Hizb Palestine.
Well and good, but at the same time, not recognizing it, when the shoe is on the other foot...uhem, I mean the sanction of ethnic cleansing by 'self-identified' Arab state, is to say the least, hypocritical. Sudan is Egypt's most immediate neighbour, aside from Libya, and yet, the prospect of ordinary Egyptians not recognizing what is going on down there, while looking to relatively distant places in the "Middle East", and recognizing the plight of the oppressed therein, is imo, tragic. How times have changed! In the good old Kemetic days, even though Kemet's southern neighbours were considered rivals who needed to be cautiously dealt with at times, at the same time, this is where they sought much assistance, when the uncomfortably close presence of potential extra-African imperialists was being felt; they didn't seek such from the Levant. That sort of relationship just wasn't there. Today though, one can't help but get the feeling that the attitude is to turn a blind eye to what's happening in the neighbours to south, as though all is just dandy.
Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
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quote:Originally posted by One_and_Done: Alot of the Arab/Islam on this group stems from people whose lives revolve around Ancient Egypt and EgyptSearch. I mean just look at the number of posts some of these people have since they registered. One of these obsessive people isn't even of African descent.
So far, I know two Egyptsearch regulars (Djehuti, a Filipino, and myself, a white) who aren't of African descent.
Posts: 7072 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
We all agree that man has been fighting over something or other forever. It will be that way until the man eventually destroys himself. That goes without saying. HOWEVER, to say that the conflict in Sudan is purely an INTERNAL affair is not correct either. The present conflict in the Sudan was LARGELY orchestrated by external forces, like the British and Egyptians, who divided up the Sudan into North and South. The North was Islamized by the Egyptians and others, while the South was Christianized by the British.
quote: Foreign control: the Egyptian and British
In 1820, Northern Sudan came under Egyptian rule when Mehemet Ali, the Ottoman viceroy of Egypt, sent armies led by his son Ismail Pasha and Mahommed Bey to conquer eastern Sudan. The Egyptians developed Sudan’s trade in ivory and slaves. Ismail Pasha, khedive of Egypt from 1863-1879, tried to extend Egyptian (and therefore British) influence south. This led to a revolt led by religious leader Muhammad ibn Abdalla, the self-proclaimed Mahdi (Messiah), who sought to purify Islam in Sudan. He led a nationalist revolt against Egyptian/British rule culminating in the fall of Khartoum and the death of the British General Charles George Gordon in 1885. The revolt was successful and Egypt and the British abandoned Sudan, and the resulting state was a theocratic Mahdist state.
In the 1890s the British sought to regain control of Sudan. Lord Kitchener led military campaigns from 1896-98. An agreement was reached in 1899 establishing Anglo-Egyptian Sudan, under which Sudan was run by a governor-general appointed by Egypt with British consent. In reality, Sudan was a colony of Great Britain.
From 1924, until independence in 1956, the British had a policy of running Sudan as two essentially separate colonies, the south and the north.
In fact there is whole conflict falls into a PATTERN of so-called "ethnic" and "tribal" battles that are NOT due to the natural struggles between groups over land and resources. These struggles are more POLITICAL and RARELY have anything to do with the well being of the PEOPLE and MORE to do with the divisions created by COLONIAL rule. Therefore, struggles like this are NOT like the ancient rivalries over resources because BLACKS IN AFRICA DONT CONTROL THEIR OWN RESOURCES. So these struggles DO NOTHING to bring about the LIBERATION of the people who are fighting, because the REAL ENEMY, the forces of NEOCOLONIALISM and IMPERIALISM are STILL in place AFTER the war is over and STILL IN CONTROL of the WEALTH of the country. ANY rivalry and warfare in Africa that DOES NOT seek an end to IMPERIAL, NEO-COLONIAL oppression of African people by the creation of FAKE, foreign IMPOSED identities and "ethnicities" , as a form of DIVIDE AND CONQUER, is DOOMED to fail and ONLY supports the IMPERIALIST and NEOCOLONIALIST powers in Africa.
The struggle in Congo fits this pattern, as well as Angola, Mozambique, Rwanda, Somalia, Liberia, Ethiopia, Somalia and so on. All of these "struggles" fit a pattern of "ethnic" rivalries over "ideological" and "political" issues that are MOSTLY fabricated in order to JUSTIFY warfare that serves NO PURPOSE other than to KEEP the COUNTRY in SHAMBLES, the PEOPLE in disarray and RIPE for EXPLOITATION (ie. BEGGING the WORLD for AID and ROBBERY by the World Bank). Until, Africans stop fighting over FAKE crises FABRICATED and SUPPORTED by FOREIGN POWERS (Africans dont make tanks, planes and helicopters), and start fighting for REAL control over LAND, RESOURCES and WEALTH (what is the point of a revolution if the land and wealth STAYS in the hands of the oppressor?), Africans will slowly disintegrate and be FOREVER at the mercy of FOREIGN POWERS and NEVER become independent countries capable of building THEIR OWN EMPIRES and IDEOLOGIES that promote AFRICANS and AFRICAN WELL BEING (the definition of civilization is CONTROLLING the means of production, ORGANIZATION of labor, AGRICULTURAL output, TRADE and commerce and the TECHNOLOGY to support all of them for the support of the state: ie. the people ... all of which was DEVELOPED in Africa and DOCUMENTED almost like a BLUEPRINT on the walls of Egyptian monuments).
Therefore, when people here talk about the struggle in Sudan as being SENSELESS they are talking about how it follows the BLUEPRINT for NEOCOLONIAL control of Africa as opposed to following the BLUEPRINT of CIVILIZATION, wealth and prosperity as found in Egypt. UNIFIYING the land, ORGANIZING labor, INCREASING agricultural output, PROMOTING EDUCATION and DEVELOPING medicines to cure the ailments of the people are the HALLMARKS of the AFRICAN blueprint for CIVILIZATION. The NeoColonial blueprint for the DESTRUCTION of Africa features INCREASED "ethnic" strife, CONSTANT warfare, LACK of control over land and wealth, LITTLE education and INCREASED starvation and poverty.
Posts: 8891 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
Supercar Egypt & Libya are two of Sudans Neighbors dont forget she has close neighbors in the south eritrea & ethiopia were she should learn to unite all the tribes under one family as Eritrea has done 9 tribes one heart one people this is actually the anthem of the eritrean people 9 tribes 9 tents. For Sudan to look to Egypt which has alot to do with the problem of racial indentity dont forget it use to be called the Egyptian-Sudan.
The Turks,British, and Egyptians have alot to do with the problem and no one can deny this. Sudans problems with the people of the South mainly stems from Religion not Color of Skin.
Most Northern Sudanese look at southerners with suspicion because of Christianity and the Western influence and the western backing that it has. We all know that Israel Europe & America are not very fond of Muslims.
-------------------- Hikuptah Al-Masri Posts: 526 | From: Aswan Egypt | Registered: Jun 2006
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quote:Sudans problems with the people of the South mainly stems from Religion not Color of Skin.
Wrong once again Hikuptah.
quote:The remark by a prominent Muslim refugee-rights activist troubled me greatly: "Zionists [are] abusing this issue," he announced curtly when he said he would not be joining me and hundreds of other people on Sunday at a "Scream for Darfur" rally at Queen's Park in Toronto.
This line of thinking, that Jews have somehow stolen the issue of Darfur's genocide by actively campaigning against it, has been making the rounds in cyberspace and needs a rebuttal.
The fact that more than 200,000 Darfurians, almost all of them Muslims, have been killed in an ongoing genocide; the fact that more than a million Muslim Darfurians are displaced refugees living in squalor and fear, appears not to have registered with the leadership of traditional Muslim organizations and mosques
quote:We all agree that man has been fighting over something or other forever. It will be that way until the man eventually destroys himself. That goes without saying. HOWEVER, to say that the conflict in Sudan is purely an INTERNAL affair is not correct either. The present conflict in the Sudan was LARGELY orchestrated by external forces, like the British and Egyptians, who divided up the Sudan into North and South. The North was Islamized by the Egyptians and others, while the South was Christianized by the British.
Northern Sudan aleady had both an Arab idenity and were Islamic before the occupation of Muhammed Ali. The people who occupied Sudan were not ethnic Egyptians but actually foreigners. Muhammed Ali was a ethnic Albanian. Slave trading also existed before Muhammed Ali's occupation with northern Sudanese raiding both Dafur and southern Sudan and trading them.
You need to actually pick up a book and read yourself about Sudan's issues instead of solely relying on Wikipedia.
The British are the ones who gave northern Sudanese the idea they were different and better than the southern Sudanese. Infact, most British Orientalist did not even consider northern Sudanese to be ''black'' Africans.
Northern Sudanese Sayyids considered themselves ot also be superior to southeners.
Let me also emphasized that Egyptians did partispate under the Muhammed Ali regine but never had any prominent position in the goverment. Most were just workers or soliders.
Sudan has been indepedent since the 1950's.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote: The present conflict in the Sudan was LARGELY orchestrated by external forces, like the British and Egyptians, who divided up the Sudan into North and South. The North was Islamized by the Egyptians and others, while the South was Christianized by the British.
Doug, to be able to divide something, it has to have been united, and as far as i know northern sudanese were never united with southern sudanese, that is the time before modern sudan.
Posts: 1420 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
^ Sudan - the country - is by definition based upon the political unity of Northern and Southern Sudan. What you are saying effectively is that Sudan - the country - is a lie, and always has been. (??)
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
What I am saying is not that Sudan has always been UNIFIED under ONE government or "culture". What I AM saying is that the MODERN divisions and ethnic strife WITHIN Sudan are based LARGELY on FOREIGN identities not just various groups competing over resources. Chrisitianity is NOT indigenous to Sudan, even though in the 6th Century, Northern Sudan WAS a Christian Kingdom. It did not become Muslim until the Muslims invaded and conquered it and that was PRIOR to the invasions of Egypt in the 19th century. ISLAM is not NATIVE to Sudan. The last purely INDIGENOUS EMPIRE and CULTURE in Sudan was Cush which fell in the 4th Century.
After that here is a general timeline:
quote: 4th Century: The kingdom of Cush falls, and a period of 2 centuries of obscurity for Sudan follows. Northern Sudan is inhabited by a group we now refer to as X-Group, and who by ancient geographers were called Nobatae. It is believed that they represented a cultural continuation of the Cush. 6th century: Makuria (or Maqurra) with Dunqula (Dongola) as capital, Alwah with Soba as capital and Nobatia with Pachoras emerge as powerful states in Nubia. 543: Coptic Christian missionaries from Egypt, led by Julian, start converting the population of Nubia to Christianity. 652: A Muslim army from Egypt takes control over Nobatia, and even laid siege on Dunqula. They compelling Makuria to pay tribute to Egypt each year of 360 slaves. The agreement also defined the border between Egypt and Makuria, and stated that no Nubians could settle in Egypt and vice versa. The agreement would last for almost 600 years, assuring trade and good relations between the states. 9th century: Christianity reaches as far as the Darfur region in southwestern Sudan. — Arab tribes are pressed out of Egypt by its rulers, start raiding and pillaging along the border to the Nubian territories. Around 1300: The Mamluks send military expeditions towards Makuria, but are able to take control over the country. Yet the campaigns have strong negative effects on Makuria's economy and political stability. Around 1400: Makuria falls to confederation of Arab nomads and Egypt. A handful of tribes, of which the Juhaynah was the most dominant, settles in Nubia, and start intermarrying the Nubians. Over time the Arabs would become the leading group in the region started. Their nomadic institutions would eventually replace the political authority of Makuria. Around 1500: Alwa is conquered by an Arab confederation led by Abdullah Jamma. Their cities are abandoned. 1504: The Funj kingdom is founded by Amara Dunqas in central of Sudan near the confluence of the White and the Blue Niles. Sennar becomes its capital. Dunqas converts to Islam, and spread the new religion all over this part of Sudan. 17th century: Funj kingdom controls large parts of eastern Sudan, from Nubia to the Ethiopia in south. The kingdom controlled important trade routes, bringing in good revenues. 18th century: The Funj rulers start to build up a military caste made up of slaves from foreign lands. This group would develop into a political factor that challenged the Funj aristocracy, and eventually the king. This destroyed the political power of the Funj, and made the kingdom an easy prey for foreign warlords. 1821: The Egyptians attack Sennar, bringing the Funj kingdom to an end. Hence all of Sudan down the Nile, through the Blue Nile, and the Atbara river came under control of Muhammad Ali. 1820's: A short period of extreme taxation starts. The Sudanese revolt, and kills the Egyptian commander Isma'il. 1826: Ali Khurshid is appointed governor-general. His rule involved lower taxes and tax exemption for and cooperation with local leaders. Trade routes were protected and expanded. Khartoum was developed as the administrative capital, and agricultural and technical improvements were introduced.
The whole GIST of my point is that SINCE the fall of Cush, there has been a STEADY FLOW of FOREIGN IDEAOLOGIES and INTERESTS fighting for control in Sudan. Therefore, like the REST of Africa, much of the CONFLICT, even though INTERNAL, stems from FOREIGN ideas, identity and ideaologies and really has NOTHING to do with the liberation and UNITY of Sudanese people. Sudan will be UNITED when the country is able to remove the FAKE FOREIGN identity crisis and begin focusing on the REAL issues facing the people, which involves LAND, RESOURCES and WEALTH distribution.
Posts: 8891 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:^ Sudan - the country - is by definition based upon the political unity of Northern and Southern Sudan. What you are saying effectively is that Sudan - the country - is a lie, and always has been. (??)
Modern Sudan as country is not a lie, it does exist. However it did not exist with its borders as today before the berlin conference, same as Iraq with its borders today did not exist before first world war. In other words the people of sudan (in particular north and south) were never united. As you probably know by now the nation states of most africa and middle east are quite new and contructed by external colonial forces with no respect to cultures or ethnicities.
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