posted
Arab, as ethos is usually the imperative of the inclusiveness of Arab culture. Arab, as race, within the modern imperative surely weakens the concept of Arabiyya and exposes hypocracy and ignorance.
Posts: 1290 | From: usa | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
I think this is an excellent question. I noticed that Africa's question went unanswered, and Hikuptah thinks that we are confused. So, this is the perfect opportunity for you to set the record straight. Using blaming and strong emotion as defense tactics will not get you taken very seriously by the posters on this forum, I've noticed. Posts: 34 | From: Lurkerville | Registered: Oct 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
The definition of what exactly an Arab is depends who you ask on the matter. Some people will say Arab is just somebody who speak Arabic while others will say it has a definite ethnic attachment.
Most of the people who consider themselves Arabs today like Egyptians,Sudanese,Lebanese,Maghrebians might have mixture with Arabs but are not really ethnically Arabic.
The Arab themselves are divided into Qahtan and Adnan Arabs. Qahtan are the purest from Yemen while Adnan are Arabized. Adnan claim desent from Ishmael. Adnan are usually Arab groups from places like Syria,Iraq or other northern regions.
Most ''true'' Arabs are not really pure often having mixture with Indians,Central Africans,eastern Africans and many others. The Slave trade in the Gulf states did not end untill around the 1950's and even in some places the 70's.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Although I generally do not like to get involved in discussions of this nature, I would like to add that more and more Egyptians are no longer considering themselves Arabs. If you live in Cairo, for example, a significant amount of the middle class and upper class people will use the word Arab when specifically referring to Gulf Arabs, and use other terms when referring to other people of the "Arabic" nations. Like all terms of race and color, "Arab" is a transient term. Even the same individual can mean different things each time he says the word. Just as the terms white or black mean different things depending on what the context is. Amongst my friends who are Middle Eastern and North African, we will usually only say Arab when we mean those from the Gulf, but if we are all relaxing together at a cafe' in Berlin and some Russians ask us what race are we, we may say Arab because we are all from Arabic speaking countries that are predominately Muslim, and it is easy for foreign people to understand that. However, we don't really feel we are Arabs. We just say it for simplicity at times. I would personally take exception to being called an Arab by someone that was Egyptian, Lebanese, Yemeni, Tunisian, etcetera, because I know they understand the region enough to know what I mean when I say "I am not Arab." If an American (of any extraction) called me an Arab I wouldn't argue it unless I was in a situation where making the distinction was important to the discussion.
Also to add to what Ausar said about most Gulf Arabs not being "pure" : that has also been added to because before air travel became affordable, many foreign Muslims would stay in Arabia after making the Hagg, thus mixing with the locals. In my opinion if you are speaking about the Mediterranean, every group is lightly mixed with something at some point, so asking about purity of race is like asking about purity of air.
Posts: 345 | Registered: Aug 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
Qahtan and Adnan are the Two groups of Arabs but the Adnan=Adites the First Adites were Kushites but the North Arabs the Jectanide tribes who came to settle among the black Kushites as they absorbed the White Tribes completely this period is called the second Adites the arab can not be conceived as nothing other than the mixture of White & Black. Soon the Jectanide tribes seized power from the Adites some of the Adites crossed over the red sea at BAb al Mandeb to settle in Ethiopia this is the source of the Arab proverb as Divided as the Sabeans and why southern Arabia and Ethiopia became inseparable lingustically and ethnographically. Geez the Ethiopian Language is a living remnant of the ancient language of Yemen.
So we have seen the entire Arab people are mixed with Negro blood. All educated Arabs are conscious of that fact. The Fabulous hero of Arabia Antar is himself a Mixedbreed.
-------------------- Hikuptah Al-Masri Posts: 526 | From: Aswan Egypt | Registered: Jun 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
Africa, I'm glad you took it upon youself to ask this question, because interestingly, when I first asked you this question, you replied with a personal attack instead of an actual answer. Nice to know that you now see the value of asking this very question. Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
| IP: Logged |
What you're reffering to most likely is amharas with recent foreign admixture. (most likely middle east)
Posts: 214 | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged |
Well, there are coastal North African Arabs, Yemeni, Saudi Arabians, the Sudanese Arabs, the Egyptian Arabs, and so forth. So I would like to know what you mean by "look like Arabs".
Then...
quote:Originally posted by Africa:
They look like you...
Followed by...
quote:Originally posted by Supercar:
Huh, have you met me in person? The answer had better be yes.
...
quote:Originally posted by Amr1:
actually, 1/2 of the arabs look like african americans, or like haile barry or barack obama.
...
quote:Supercar:
Amr1, surely Africa has the minimal lingual skills to communicate what he means by "look like Arabs" without assistance from another. I doubt that he uses terms he doesn't understand
almost anyone who speaks Arabic can be considered as Arab. My professor in undergrad was Armenian, yet she claimed that she was Arab. Also, Dr. Sherman Jackson, professor of Islamic Sutides at the University of Michigan, is an African-American Muslim scholar. When he is around Arabs and speaks to them in Arabic, he has been asked by the Arab people if he himself was Arab...................
Hence, being "Arab" is a very fluid term. Salaam
Posts: 826 | From: U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
This topic has been discussed several times already, most recently here: OT. Arabs?Posts: 26356 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
Evidence? Ethiopians are not hairy, especially not women (I actually have noticed that other Africans tend to be hairier). "Big heads" are not really features associated with Europeans or Arabs (East Asian groups tend to have larger faces, though), and hooked noses are just as native to Africa as "broad" noses.
quote:Originally posted by Hikuptah: Qahtan and Adnan are the Two groups of Arabs but the Adnan=Adites the First Adites were Kushites but the North Arabs the Jectanide tribes who came to settle among the black Kushites as they absorbed the White Tribes completely this period is called the second Adites the arab can not be conceived as nothing other than the mixture of White & Black. Soon the Jectanide tribes seized power from the Adites some of the Adites crossed over the red sea at BAb al Mandeb to settle in Ethiopia this is the source of the Arab proverb as Divided as the Sabeans and why southern Arabia and Ethiopia became inseparable lingustically and ethnographically. Geez the Ethiopian Language is a living remnant of the ancient language of Yemen.
So we have seen the entire Arab people are mixed with Negro blood. All educated Arabs are conscious of that fact. The Fabulous hero of Arabia Antar is himself a Mixedbreed.
"Ge'ez is not, as was stated by earlier researchers, an offshoot of Old South Arabian (Appleyard 1996)."
-Weninger, Stefan "Ge'ez" in von Uhlig, Siegbert, Encyclopaedia Aethiopica: D-Ha, pp.732, 2005.
Posts: 1024 | Registered: Jun 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Evidence? Ethiopians are not hairy, especially not women (I actually have noticed that other Africans tend to be hairier). "Big heads" are not really features associated with Europeans or Arabs (East Asian groups tend to have larger faces, though), and hooked noses are just as native to Africa as "broad" noses.
posted
Indeed body hair tends to vary a great deal across different ethnic groups in different regions.
Some West African men have a goodly amount of body hair....others do not.
Some East Africans and South African Khoisan have among the least amounts of body hair of all humans.
Body hair is sometimes associated loosely with adaption to cooler climate - but most anthropologist agree that all humans have so little body hair that it is virtually useless as 'insulation'.
The best/cold adapted Humans are the Inuit/Eskimo, and they and many other NorthEast Asians have very little body hair.
Europeans overall are the hairiest of all people - even then though, it varies greatly from and within different groups. Some of the Arabs of SouthWest Asia are among the hairiest of all humans.
quote:Originally posted by Africa: I was comparing Amhara to Elongated Africans like Borana and Somalis...
Amharas are Elongated Africans.
quote:Europeans and Arabs have bigger nose, stronger jaws and bodies compared to Elongated Africans who are classified as 'gracile' in anthropology...
Bigger meaning what? Certainly not broader, but I would agree that they project out from the face farther. What do you mean by stronger jaws? More projecting chins, yes, but jaw strength is determined by your jaw muscle not bone. And what do you mean by stronger bodies?
quote:if you want to beat science it's your problem. Again Amhara have more body hair than Elongated Africans,
Citation?
quote:yourself mentioned that Northern Ethiopian were lighter than southerner Ethiopians
According to the old maps that have been posted here, but it need not be explained by mixing. You have to take into account climactic factors, for one. Moreover, notice that Southwestern and central southern Ethiopians are considered to have the same Hue as N. Ethiopians, while it's mainly Somalis who are shown as darker (while Oromos are mainly shown as the same hue as N. Ethiopians, a group with just as few J lineages as Somalis).
quote:whereas Elongated Africans live in the southern part of Ethiopia...
Elongated Africans live throughout Ethiopia - Semitic, Cushitic, Omotic, and Nilo-Saharan speakers in Ethiopia are all considered "Elongated."
quote:you are trying to have it both ways...
How? What two statements have I made that contradict each other?
quote:there is even substantial historical and genetic evidence regarding the Amhara mixing with non Africans.
There's genetic evidence of J haplotypes coming to the north around 7-6kya (probably from a mixed West Asian-Natufian population), but what historical evidence are you talking about? I hope you know that the genetic evidence refutes the idea that South Arabians made substantial genetic contributions to the gene pool of Semitic speakers in Ethiopia (see Semino et al. 2004).
I admit here that I disagree with you. If you are about "Africa", then you shouldn't try to speak about "admixture" of the Ethiopians the way that you are. Depending on what point of view, it can be understood perhaps that horn of Africa "Africans" were the original "K(C)ushites". In the Bible, Raamah, Dedan, Saba, Sheba, etc., are all descendents of Kush who was the descendent of Ham, and these names are people groups and places in ancient Arabia. Hence, who influenced who? Who mixed with who, know what I mean? Salaam
Posts: 826 | From: U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
Yom, you didn't get my point...let's leave it here... P.S.:Elongated Africans means people with linear and tall bodies and long limbs ...they are probably the most 'gracile' humans...In the horn of Africa cushitic people like Afars, Borana, Somali, Dinkas, Shilluk are in the field, but Amhara are too short and too light to be included... For your own information in anthropology these unrelated people are considerd as elongated African (linear bodies and dark skin to adapt to a hot and dry climate): (think about limb ratio not facial feature only), don't you think the European woman below has a big nose and big head for a woman???:
I admit here that I disagree with you. If you are about "Africa", then you shouldn't try to speak about "admixture" of the Ethiopians the way that you are. Depending on what point of view, it can be understood perhaps that horn of Africa "Africans" were the original "K(C)ushites". In the Bible, Raamah, Dedan, Saba, Sheba, etc., are all descendents of Kush who was the descendent of Ham, and these names are people groups and places in ancient Arabia. Hence, who influenced who? Who mixed with who, know what I mean? Salaam
posted
Ethiopians are built the same way even the Tigrinia people of Eritrea & Ethiopia are built the same way as Somalians elongated Africans is Ethiopia.
Africa another thing is the climate in Sudan & Somalia its much more hotter but the hottest region in the world is the Danakil the Afar region and its in Ethiopia. Northern Ethiopia is more cooler almost like perfect weather never to hot but somalia and Sudan is Hot threwout the whole country.
-------------------- Hikuptah Al-Masri Posts: 526 | From: Aswan Egypt | Registered: Jun 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
Elongated it's your body build, tall linear and thin like the following Tutsi: You'll find that among the Afars of Eritrea, Somali, Oromo, Dinka of Southern Sudan, Masai of Kenya but it's less frequent among the Tigre and Amhara...You have to understand the definition first: very dark, tall people, long and thin limbs, adapted to hot and dry climate, some have extremely fine facial features as well...
quote:Originally posted by Africa: Yom, you didn't get my point...let's leave it here... P.S.:Elongated Africans means people with linear and tall bodies and long limbs ...they are probably the most 'gracile' humans...In the horn of Africa cushitic people like Afars, Borana, Somali, Dinkas, Shilluk are in the field, but Amhara are too short and too light to be included...For your own information in anthropology these unrelated people are considerd as elongated African (linear bodies and dark skin to adapt to a hot and dry climate): (think about limb ratio not facial feature only),
Elongated does not necessarily mean "tall." Somalis like other Horn Africans are none too tall. It's mainly just the Nilotic populations that are tall. What's important is facial features and limb ratios, and you have not provided evidence of a difference between Ethiopians and Somalis in this regard. I don't understand where you get the idea that all N. Ethiopians are light-skinned and short. I am over 6' (1.8m) and dark-skinned, for instance.
quote:don't you think the European woman below has a big nose and big head for a woman???:
What do you consider as big? She has a bigger head than the men (but not the other women) in the picture, but smaller than other people I know.
quote:Originally posted by Africa: You'll find that among the Afars of Eritrea, Somali, Oromo but it's less frequent among the Tigre and Amhara...You have to understand the definition first...
Please provide a citation for this.
Posts: 1024 | Registered: Jun 2006
| IP: Logged |
Elongated does not necessarily mean "tall." Somalis like other Horn Africans are none too tall. It's mainly just the Nilotic populations that are tall. What's important is facial features and limb ratios, and you have not provided evidence of a difference between Ethiopians and Somalis in this regard. I don't understand where you get the idea that all N. Ethiopians are light-skinned and short. I am over 6' (1.8m) and dark-skinned, for instance.
Best to hear things right from the horse's mouth; Hiernaux, whom I believe, coined the term, describes what this is: here [too big; might distort the width of the screen]
Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
The Amhara come in varying stature, but if I must generalize based on my personal experience, then I would say that their stature can be described as 'intermediate'. They share phenotypic facial features with Oromos; hard to distinguish them with any degree of certainty, but the Oromo might 'generally' be somewhat darker in skin tone than Amhara. Again, the latter would be a subjective observation of mine. Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
| IP: Logged |
where are you from? You seem overly concerned about the "features" of different groups of people............What are you: Sudanese? Gambian? Swahili? South African?????? What are you? I am sure others here would like to know. Just in case you didn't know, I am African-American. Salaam
Posts: 826 | From: U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Africa: Elongated it's your body build, tall linear and thin like the following Tutsi: You'll find that among the Afars of Eritrea, Somali, Oromo, Dinka of Southern Sudan, Masai of Kenya but it's less frequent among the Tigre and Amhara...You have to understand the definition first: very dark, tall people, long and thin limbs, adapted to hot and dry climate, some have extremely fine facial features as well...
Also refers to elongation of the skull, as well as gracile [thin] body build, long limbs relative to trunk, long lower lower limb segments relative to upper limb segment.
As with any other set of phenotypical features - they are not always found together.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Just to remind some folks, there is variation within a population as well. As such, even cranial measurements for a population are determined through average.
Here is some data from Hiernaux:
Tutsi of Rwanda:
Stature: 176 cm
Head length: 198 mm
Head breadth: 147 mm
Face height: 125 mm
Face breadth: 134 mm
Nose height: 56 mm
Nose breadth: 39 mm
Relative trunk length: 49.7
Cephalic Index: 74.5
Facial Index: 92.8
Nasal Index: 69.5
Masai:
Stature: 173 cm
Head length: 194 mm
Head Breadth: 140 mm
Face Height: 121 mm
Face Breadth: 137 mm
Nose Height: 54 mm
Nose Breadth: 39 mm
Relative Trunk length: 47.7
Cephalic Index: 72.8
Facial Index: 89.0
Nasal Index: 72.0
Galla(Oromo):
Stature: 171 cm
Head length: 190 mm
Head Breadth: 147 mm
Face Height: 122 mm
Face Breadth: 133 mm
Nose Height: 53 mm
Nose Breadth: 37 mm
Relative Trunk length: 50.3
Cephalic Index: 77.6
Facial Index: 91.5
Nasal Index: 69.0
Sab Somali:
Stature: 173 cm
Head length: 194 mm
Head Breadth: 145 mm
Face Height: 119 mm
Face Breadth: 134 mm
Nose Height: 49 mm
Nose Breadth: 36 mm
Relative Trunk length: 49.7
Cephalic Index: 74.7
Facial Index: 88.5
Nasal Index: 72.8
Warsingali Somali:
Stature: 168 cm
Head length: 192 mm
Head Breadth: 143 mm
Face Height: 123 mm
Face Breadth: 131 mm
Nose Height: 52 mm
Nose Breadth: 34 mm
Relative Trunk length: 50.7
Cephalic Index: 74.5
Facial Index: 94.1
Nasal Index: 66.0
And here is the Hiernaux map Supe was trying to display:
FYI, Some Egyptian remains from the predynastic right down through the dynastic period are of peoples with medium to short stature similar to some northern Ethiopians that 'Africa' seems to stereotype!
Posts: 26356 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
The arab identity, according to Islamic scholars, can be used generally to anybody well versed in the language. This is due to the strong tie and main component of their culture being the language for such things as poetry. The language is very rich in vocab and style hence its selection to be used as god's final revelation. This would embark upon the rich oral culture in which the illiterate arabs had in their days of ignorance. They were the scorn of the nations filled with illiteracy and barbary and through the favor of god they became the masters of their neighbors simply because a handful of them submitted to their Lord.
The definition amongst common people differs as ausar said. Yemenis(i mean known tribes amongs themselves, not any yemeni) are the oldest because of their patrilineal line to qahtan. Everybody elses lineages only go so far. They may be expressed as being from a specific region. Alot of factors are involved
-------------------- لا اله الا الله و محمد الرسول الله Posts: 495 | From: anchorage, alaska | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
Are there even any true arabs left? (physically AND culturally)
It looks to me the "true arabs" got a dose of their own medicine in arabising other populations...(then being totally engulfed by this modified culture) Posts: 214 | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
Yom refuted just about everything that Africa posted earlier, but to add the exclamation point to it further, for as Yom stated, Ethiopians received J lineages during the Neolithic, so ay morphological comparisons should be made with so-called "Southwest Asians" at that period who may have spread these lineages, not with modern day "Arabs", who look nothing like the prehistoric inhabitants of southern Arabia. A few of their descendants can be found like the Mahra for example, and they slope more towards the Eritreans-Ethio physical type[Elongated East African] than to Gulf Arabs.
Posts: 2601 | From: Vicksburg | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
Ok I know this thread is a serious one but.....just a little harmless fun.
Origins in a Middle Eastern Country Speaks Arabic Generally has typical Arabian personality traits; family honor, family oriented, respectful, often Muslim, favors fair haired/skinned men/women, etc. often a big nose (hehehe) Gorgeous tanned/olive skin Beautiful dark eyes (often) Passionate Straight teeth Lovely dark hair Nice butt Other stereotypical things that may or may not be true.
-------------------- شكرا و أللام عليكم شيبى Posts: 2133 | From: Redneckland | Registered: Oct 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
nur, there are true arabs existing. No different from any ethno-social central group whereas manners and customs win over more than physical attributes. Arabs are similiar to the germanic tribes in a way and also the beginning stages of the greek tribes whereas that they were a one phenotype(one ancestor as a the arabs say) and they merged from there mixing with whoever they wanted to mix with and staying away from anyone they wanted to stay away from. Arabs of antiquity(pre-islam) was about the tribe. They never was big on an arab identity like you see amongst those who call towards an arab identity. They called towards the tribal identity. If another tribe spoke arabic they didnt care as long as you didnt harm their personal identity which was the tribe. When islam came it locked down on the tribal partisanship and instituted a identity based off of religious affiliation. GOd first, tribe last. So the deal about who is arab and who is not is for those who care about that. People see themselves as muslims first then their ethnic/family/color/ affiliation.
Sheba, this is not absolutely true concerning arabs. Physical traits have always differed amongst them and did so even more when other people adopted the arab identity and passed it to their children.
-------------------- لا اله الا الله و محمد الرسول الله Posts: 495 | From: anchorage, alaska | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged |
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Embarrassed]](redface.gif)
This topic has been discussed several times already, most recently here: 
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic