Nobiin is a Northern Nubian language of the Nilo-Saharan phylum. "Nobiin" is the genitive form of Nòòbíí "Nubian" and literally means "(language) of the Nubians". Nubian peoples immigrated into the Nile Valley from the southwest, where other Nubian languages are still spoken, at least 2,500 years ago, and Old Nubian, the language of the Nubian kingdoms, is considered ancestral to Nobiin. Nobiin is a tonal language with contrastive vowel and consonant length. The basic word order is Subject Object Verb.
Nobiin is currently spoken along the banks of the Nile river in southern Egypt and northern Sudan by approximately 495,000 Nubians, and present-day Nobiin speakers are almost universally bilingual in local varieties of Arabic (Egyptian and Sudanese Arabic, respectively). Many Nobiin-speaking Nubians were forced to relocate in 1963-1964 due to the construction of the Aswan High Dam at Aswan, Egypt, to make room for Lake Nasser.
There is no standardized orthography for Nobiin. It has been written in both Latinized and Arabic scripts; also, recently there have been efforts to revive the Old Nubian alphabet.
...and examples of groups provided, were:
Halfaweyen, Sikut, Mahas and Danagla
I question the validity of the term "Nubians" as an entity from an ancient and modern context, political, and self-identified socio-ethnic standpoint. What other standpoint is there to argue for?
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We know 'Nubian' was first coined by the Romans to describe peoples south of Egypt, and that they probably got the word from the Egyptian word 'nub' which meant gold which the Egyptians used to describe the gold-bearing areas of the region to their south as well as gold-bearing areas within their own country.
We know 'Nubian' describes a diverse assortment of groups of people and not a single nation, or ethnic group.
We know that modern linguistics now use 'Nubian' as a description for a language group of the Nilo-Saharan family.
And we know there is another group of Nilo-Saharan speakers called the Nobiin.
So yes, it can be very confusing to people who know nothing about the history of the term.
Posts: 26252 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^The issue has been argued enough before.
...which doesn't stop reference to modern "Nubians" as some cohesive socio-ethnic 'political isolate' from popping up almost daily here. In the original thread I posted, of the very same topic, I made it known that this topic was really in response to a comment made just recently by a poster, specifically Hikuptah, thereby citing him. For some mysterious reason though, the thread was deleted. Anyway, the point was for incessant advocates [for the above noted] to present the arguement for their seemingly 'unwavering' questionable position.
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posted
^Agreed, which calls for continual reminder but I was thinking we could just merely bump up all the old threads on 'Nubia' instead of creating new ones. (if only the search engine worked)
Posts: 26252 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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^Agreed, which calls for continual reminder but I was thinking we could just merely bump up all the old threads on 'Nubia' instead of creating new ones. (if only the search engine worked)
Old threads mainly deal with the justification of the ancient concept of "Nubia", and this one addresses something that seems to be passively referenced here, concerning the idea of modern concept of "Nubians", as I have reiterated herein. If you can point out a thread that was exclusively dedicated to settling this issue, bring it to my notice, because apparently the message is getting buried.
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posted
^I recall about a couple or more topics on the issue of the modern concept of Nubia, but I just don't have the time nor feel like searching in the archives for it.
Posts: 26252 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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^I recall about a couple or more topics on the issue of the modern concept of Nubia, but I just don't have the time nor feel like searching in the archives for it.
Then this topic serves its purpose until you do.
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posted
Supercar & Djehuti ok lets get this straight there are two different people called Noba & Nubians but the problem with this is that in the Egyptian reliefs and relics and paints u will find Noba's Wrestling i think this was some kind of entertainment for the Pharoahs back then but u do not see this among the Nubians of Aswan and southern Egypt u see this among the Noba i have actually seen this with my own eyes and the women wear this like thong with a little bra which u will see in egyptian relics and the do the same dance as they did back in Egypt. The Noba people still hold these traditions that u find in Egypt but the Nubians of Aswan & Southern Egypt do not have this tradition. Even when u see the Nubians in the egyptian paintings they look just like the Noba not like the Nubians of Southern Egypt alot of the Noba even have the same hair duz. I was wondering what is the information u have from my observation of the Nubians of Aswan they dont seem like the Warrior Nubians of Ancient Egypt the Noba hold those traditions. Even till this day the Sudanese & Nubians are not known as fighters and dont hold the warrior tradition as other africans for instance the Beja Habshi Somali Noba Afar Hedareb. Another thing u said Nubian is a Nilo-Saharan language what about the Wrestling Noba what is there language classified as.
-------------------- Hikuptah Al-Masri Posts: 526 | From: Aswan Egypt | Registered: Jun 2006
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Supercar & Djehuti ok lets get this straight there are two different people called Noba & Nubians
I am not sure that you carefully examined what is at stake here; your concept of modern "Nubians". What are you justifying this concept on: geopolitical, historical, or socio-ethnic cohesiveness? Present your case, if you will.
quote:Hikuptah:
but the problem with this is that in the Egyptian reliefs and relics and paints u will find Noba's Wrestling i think this was some kind of entertainment for the Pharoahs back then but u do not see this among the Nubians of Aswan and southern Egypt u see this among the Noba
Your use of "Noba" cannot be based on ancient Egyptian reference, since it is not mentioned anywhere therein. So, I'd have to assume that this is your personal assessement based on your perception of the social behaviors of groups now in the region. I don't see anything wrong with this per se, given that I don't see how the ancient populations underwent extinction, as much as I do with the concept of "Nubians".
quote:Hikuptah:
i have actually seen this with my own eyes and the women wear this like thong with a little bra which u will see in egyptian relics and the do the same dance as they did back in Egypt. The Noba people still hold these traditions that u find in Egypt but the Nubians of Aswan & Southern Egypt do not have this tradition.
Again, lets be real about what is the real issue at hand, i.e., justification for your reference to "Nubians". The people beyond the 4th cataract in the dynastic era, appeared to have belonged to the Kushitic complex, if historical references are any indication. No reference to "Nubians" was ever made by Kemetians in a geopolitical context or in a socio-ethnic one.
quote:Hikuptah:
Even when u see the Nubians in the egyptian paintings they look just like the Noba not like the Nubians of Southern Egypt alot of the Noba even have the same hair duz. I was wondering what is the information u have from my observation of the Nubians of Aswan they dont seem like the Warrior Nubians of Ancient Egypt the Noba hold those traditions.
...your justification for using the term "Nubians", since I doubt there is any group even today in the Nile Valley, which calls itself "Nubians".
quote:Hikuptah:
Even till this day the Sudanese & Nubians are not known as fighters and dont hold the warrior tradition as other africans for instance the Beja Habshi Somali Noba Afar Hedareb.
You say "even till this day", as though the concept of "Nubians" ever existed outside of Eurocentric [and the modern folks elsewhere who have been brainwashed to passively accept the term] figment. The Kushites were based in what is now Sudan, and they certainly were not dismissed as "non-fighters", in fact, they were viewed to the contrary, not just by the Kemetians, but by European invaders like Greeks and Romans, particularly the latter. Moreover, even going by the bankrupt Eurocentric figment of "Nubians", the Egyptians recruited 'fighters' from "lower Nubia".
quote:Hikuptah:
Another thing u said Nubian is a Nilo-Saharan language what about the Wrestling Noba what is there language classified as.
I guess this wouldn't apply to me, since I'm trying to make sense of the justification for using "Nubians" in the first place, but certainly the groups referred to as such 'today', are proclaimed by linguists to be largely Nilo-Saharan speakers...but then going by the indicators of historical references, the "Beja" too would be "Nubians", and they speak a language which is deemed part of the Afrasan language family.
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posted
Yes, it appears Hikuptah is himself entangled in the confusion over ancient 'Nubian' and modern 'Nubian'.
Hikuptah, Ancient 'Nubian' referred to any and all peoples living to the immediate south of Egypt and is usually ascribed to peoples living in northern Sudan but can even be extended to peoples living further south! And it didn't matter what language or culture even Afrasian.
Modern 'Nubian' is in reference to a group of languages which are part of the Nilo-Saharan language phylum. Modern day Nubians of southern Upper Egypt like the Kanuzi and northern Sudan like the Mahas and Danagla all speak closely related Nubian languages River Nubian languages. Whereas the Nuba speak hill Nubian languages. All are Nubian languages.
Posts: 26252 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: [QB] Yes, it appears Hikuptah is himself entangled in the confusion over ancient 'Nubian' and modern 'Nubian'.
Hikuptah, Ancient 'Nubian' referred to any and all peoples living to the immediate south of Egypt and is usually ascribed to peoples living in northern Sudan but can even be extended to peoples living further south! And it didn't matter what language or culture even Afrasian.
Modern 'Nubian' is in reference to a group of languages which are part of the Nilo-Saharan language phylum. Modern day Nubians of southern Upper Egypt like the Kanuzi and northern Sudan like the Mahas and Danagla all speak closely related Nubian languages River Nubian languages. Whereas the Nuba speak hill Nubian languages. All are Nubian languages.
"Nubians" in todays usage is referenced as a socio-ethnic entity, usually giving the misleading impression of some cohesive socio-ethnic political 'isolates' in the Nile Valley.
"Nubian language", again a European construct, is what presumably regards the language relationship of the 'eastern Sudanic Nilo-Saharan' languages of these "Nubians". Its usage in reference to groups today is just as questionable as its reference to the ancients, because the 'term' is meant to draw ties between the ancients and the contemporary groups in the region. Its reference to groups in the Nile Valley today, has almost the same effect as its reference to the ancients, by invoking these folks to be some cohesive socio-political ethnic 'isolates', rather than members of nation states. For instance, we know that there are Cushitic speakers in Ethiopia, and yet, there are not usually referred to as "Cushites"; instead, they are referred to as "Ethiopian", in the name of their country. Why should the so-called "Nubians" in Egypt or Sudan be treated any differently?
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posted
So would the people of Khartoum and Umdurman and other parts of Sudan are they also Nubians like the Baggara of Sudan the same tribe as the president of Sudan are most Sudanese considered Nubians.
Supercar the Eurocentric use of the word Nubian & Noba is not what im worried about what i want to understand is the difference between those nubians in Southern Egypt than those in Khartoum & Umdurman.
-------------------- Hikuptah Al-Masri Posts: 526 | From: Aswan Egypt | Registered: Jun 2006
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Supercar the Eurocentric use of the word Nubian & Noba is not what im worried about
Then you are in the wrong topic, because that is what this discussion is concerned about. Your lack of 'worry' is what allows you to passively reference the term, without taking into consideration the intellectual justification.
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posted
Supercar were did the word Nubian or Noba come from the Europeans or the People of Sudan & Egypt because if u say it came from the people then there is no Eurocentric use of the word because it would be authentic. First Supercar u would have to find the first reference to these people being called Nubians.
One more thing there are a few names used for different people in Sudan with the same name for instance u have the Nubians of Southern Egypt & Northern Sudan but how far i would say a little south of Khartoum these are callled the Nubians then there are the Noba of the Nuba Hills and then there are the Jenub in the south i would have to say that all of Sudan is Full of Nubians even the Southern Sudanese Dinka Nuer Shuluk all these are Nubians not just the Sudanese u see who live close to Egypt.
Its kinda strange how u dont see Jenub Nubians or Noba in Northern Egypt as there ancestral Land.
Supercar what i meant by im not worried about the Eurocentric use of the word Nubian Noba Jenub because i believe they have nothing to do with those words living in Sudan everyone knew about Jenub before they read it in Egyptian book written by some European Educated fool.
Supercar do u know about the Jenub people u know about the Nubians & the Noba how about the Jenub.
-------------------- Hikuptah Al-Masri Posts: 526 | From: Aswan Egypt | Registered: Jun 2006
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posted
To my knowledge, the Nuba people in the mountains in northern Sudan donot refer to themselves as such. The southern Sudanese have their own words for themselves and donot refer to themselves as Nubians.
They could well be the ancient desendants of the people in ancient Egyptin texts south of the first cataract.
The word ''nub'' is of ancient Egyptian origin and only refers to gold but never a specific ethnic group. The first person to refer to the word Nubia as a geographical location was a Greco-Roman author named Erostshenes[sp] and in later times Strabo does refer to an ethnic group in Roman times known as the Noba.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:Originally posted by ausar: To my knowledge, the Nuba people in the mountains in northern Sudan donot refer to themselves as such. The southern Sudanese have their own words for themselves and donot refer to themselves as Nubians.
They could well be the ancient desendants of the people in ancient Egyptin texts south of the first cataract.
The word ''nub'' is of ancient Egyptian origin and only refers to gold but never a specific ethnic group. The first person to refer to the word Nubia as a geographical location was a Greco-Roman author named Erostshenes[sp] and in later times Strabo does refer to an ethnic group in Roman times known as the Noba.
I agree with the above. There is actually no evidence that the word "nubia" is actually native to any of the nilo-saharan languages of which all the nubian languages are a 'sub-group' of.
It's like the word Berber in that respect.
Berber defines a group of African languages and the people who speak them - but the etyoology of the term is actually Greek - related to Barbarian, and from whence we get such names as Barbara.
Likewise Nub is a native Kemetic [ie - Ancient Egyptian] word as Ausar has pointed out.
Primary text we've explored on ES references Nub invaribably as native Kemetic conception.
Nub.t
- a city in Ta Shemu {upper Egypt}, named for it's gold (mines/works(?)).
- the Golden Gods and venerated ancestors of the Kemetians.
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posted
I think we may be getting the hang of it, as they say regarding the Euroepan designation of words, their social meaning or metaphor vs the local term assignation of what is meant. Let us put science to use so here is a strategy: a. Still use the European assignation of Nubian b. Sample DNA of Noba, the various tribes known to be "Nubian", their actual tribal designation and compare to fellahin of the delta and observe the results!
This is actual use of science of solving and learning about peoples and their offspring. My hupothesis would be that they are the same group separeted by foreign incursion and cultural association. Comparator groups (DNA) would be taken at selected points towards Alexandria to see where divergence started and continued to the apex, considered as Alexandria, where the seat of power was situated (Greek, Turk, Roman etc).
Posts: 1290 | From: usa | Registered: May 2005
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Supercar were did the word Nubian or Noba come from the Europeans or the People of Sudan & Egypt because if u say it came from the people then there is no Eurocentric use of the word because it would be authentic. First Supercar u would have to find the first reference to these people being called Nubians.
Other posters have repeated herein, the ad nauseam-mentioned contexts with regards to anything that could possibly be related to the term "Nubian" from ancient reference. Please take note.
quote:Hikuptah:
One more thing there are a few names used for different people in Sudan with the same name for instance u have the Nubians of Southern Egypt & Northern Sudan but how far i would say a little south of Khartoum these are callled the Nubians
Alright, name a single "Nubian" group which calls itself "Nubian". Does the others call themselves this? Do the others see themselves as a cohesive political entity with the yet-to-be named group which calls itself "Nubian"?
quote:Hikuptah:
Its kinda strange how u dont see Jenub Nubians or Noba in Northern Egypt as there ancestral Land.
You have nothing specifically from me to back that claim up. I questioned the use of "Nubian". See parent topic.
quote:Hikuptah:
Supercar what i meant by im not worried about the Eurocentric use of the word Nubian Noba Jenub because i believe they have nothing to do with those words living in Sudan everyone knew about Jenub before they read it in Egyptian book written by some European Educated fool.
Well, you should be alert, not so much as worried, about the legitimacy of the term "Nubian". For instance, where do we hear about the "Jenub" in ancient history; and why do you use "Jenub" instead of "Nubian" in the first place?
quote:Hikuptah:
Supercar do u know about the Jenub people u know about the Nubians & the Noba how about the Jenub.
I would like to know what you know about them, so as to justify the term "Nubians". "Nubians" as I said earlier, works pretty much in the same way it is referenced in the ancient historical context: it attempts to create a cohesive 'cultural' group, who have their own mini states in larger states [Egypt and Sudan]. This way, "Nubians" can always be separated from Egypt, and accomplishments originating from "Nubians", be handed out to Egypt. Interestingly the ruse works well on some self-proclaimed Africans, who just parrot the terms as they are used.
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