Although North Western African are part African genetically, their European ancestry is also important, and I would like to open a thread dedicated to the relationship between Europeans and North Africans.
Why is it important? That aside, Northwest African gene pools have incessantly been discussed here. What of new, does this thread intend to bring to light?
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Due to the Berber expansion into the Iberian peninsula (Spain and Portugal mainly), they also ventured into Southern Italy. Later expansion were usually Turkish, though an Arab minority was present. Troops of jihad from Mauritania, Morocco and Mali also reflected sub-Saharan influences. Conversely, wahtever clan intermarried into the specific part of Spain, when that clan was kicked out, their offspring (usually Spanish born) was also banished to their country of origin! (forced back migration, as it were) Keep in mind that those who resembled the Arab phenotype were the ones kicked out. Those whose phenotype resembled the majority in Spain usually got away or paid to stay in a place where they had greater benefit! From 711 (prior to nation states) most groups were referred by their tribal affiliation, if known. The Spanish historical reference is that when Tarik was invited to Spain, the Visigoths (germanic) wanted his help in putting down a revolt.
This was addressed in smaller detail in some other thread so you will have to backtrack!
Posts: 1290 | From: usa | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Why is it important? That aside, Northwest African gene pools have incessantly been discussed here. What of new, does this thread intend to bring to light?
quote:Why is it important? That aside, Northwest African gene pools have incessantly been discussed here. What of new, does this thread intend to bring to light?
posted
Is it more the Upper Paleolithic mtdna that is present in NW Africa or more recent mtdna due to the moorish period.
Posts: 711 | From: Africa | Registered: Oct 2006
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posted
Some points: HAPLOGROUP E - Haplogroup E (M96) (Africa, the Middle East, the Mediterranean) - Haplogroup E3a (M2) (Africa) - Haplogroup E3b (M35) (North Africa (Berbers, Ethiopians and Somalians), the Middle East, the Mediterranean (Greeks and others))
HAPLOTYPE J - Haplogroup J (M304) (mainly associated with Semitic peoples; the Middle East, Italy, Greece, northernmost Africa) - Haplogroup J* (minimal distribution) - Haplogroup J1 (the Middle East, northernmost Africa) - Haplogroup J2 (M172) (the Middle East, Italy, Greece)
- Haplogroup K2 (M70) (Africa (Somalians), the Middle East, the Mediterranean) m9 MUTATION!
Up to thi spoint we see Haplotypes E, J and K2 with a particular radius and origin within Africa so there is a degree of shared origin, distinguished by some kind of mutation, whethere environmental or diet, or both. Europe (Western) proper is not even a part of this scenario!
"A very recent immigration event from North Africa, perhaps mediated by Fulbe or other pastoralists, may explain this pattern; the Fulbe in the mtDNA database (from Nigeria) show the presence of two West African U6 types, a U5 type (found otherwise only in Senegal), and an apparently indigenous West African subclade of haplogroup H. Although the H and U lineages combined make up only 18% of the Fulbe sample, they resemble the NRY haplogroup R lineages in indicating an ancient Eurasian origin, despite the absence of sequence matches in the modern European sample. The NRY haplogroup R and the mtDNA haplogroup H and U6 lineages may have originated in North African Berbers, some of whose NRY lineages may have arrived in North Africa from the Near East sometime between 20,000 and 50,000 years ago, as hypothesized for mtDNA haplogroup U6 (Rando et al. 1998; Macaulay et al. 1999). A recent arrival in north Cameroon from North Africa would explain both the ancient Asian origin hypothesized by Cruciani et al. (2002) and the geographically restricted distribution in that area that they document". My analysis of this, although sounding academic, belays the fact that this ancient Asian origin is bogus, unless we carbon date said origin and it is older than the African one. My question is how did a U5/U6 came to be part of these 2 Fulbe samples?!!! especially since they are associated with Nigeria. I may say a founder effect that left the source and through genetic drift formed a larger U5/U6 group elsewhere. Fulbe (Fulo/Fulani) were once far more nomadic so to have a static sample is noteworthy!
quote:Originally posted by yazid904: [QB] Some points: HAPLOGROUP E - Haplogroup E (M96) (Africa, the Middle East, the Mediterranean) - Haplogroup E3a (M2) (Africa) - Haplogroup E3b (M35) (North Africa (Berbers, Ethiopians and Somalians), the Middle East, the Mediterranean (Greeks and others))
Why do you list Haplotype E3b as North Africa?
E3b originates in East Africa, is found in highest frequence in East Africa, and is found throughout SouthEast and South Africa.
Some Tanzanian Ethnic groups have this lineage in a frequency of 40 to 60%...which is higher than any non African population.
Be mindful of unconsciously repeating biased methodological practise.
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If this is true, then wouldn't said maternal ancestors carry the very lineages in the study you mentioned?
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quote:Originally posted by Africa: Is it more the Upper Paleolithic mtdna that is present in NW Africa or more recent mtdna due to the moorish period.
There is no evidence of UP European mtDNA lineages in NW Africa.
You can say that again, and in fact, this thread simply attempts to regurgitate everything that has been touched on multiple times. Answers to many of the questions herein, have been produced multiple times over...and yet, some still do not get it!
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posted
"might" or "might not" in absense of evidence, is not evidence.
Reflections on past posts:
"The majority of maternal ancestors of the Berbers mus have COME FROM EUROPE and the Near East SINCE the Neolithic." - Rando et al. 1998
Given these scientific results the following study by Achilli et al. 2004 is of interest. Haplogroups V and H seem to have spread together from the Franco-Cantabrian refugia after the LGM. Table 1 is of particular interest. Haplogroup H has a frequency of 36.8% in Moroccan Berbers and 1.4% in Egyptian Berbers. It has a frequency of 51.9% in Basques and 46.9% in Northern Italians. Haplogroup H has a frequency of 19.9% in Iraq and 10.6% in Arabian Peninsula populations. This indicates that the predominate Berber mtDNA Haplogroups (H and V) did NOT spread from the Near East to NW Africa but from the Iberian peninsula and Europe straight to Africa. This information correspondes with the historical data of female derived slavery into NW Africa. http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=001029;p=7
From Achilli et al., we are reassured that these European mitochondrial lineages come from southwestern Europe, i.e. Iberian peninsula. This would NOT be inconsistent with the importation of European slave females from that general vicinity:
The results of this survey are reported in table 1 and are illustrated in the spatial distribution of figure 3. Sub-haplogroup H1 turned out to encompass a large proportion of H in the western part of its distribution range. It has a frequency peak among the Basques of Spain (27.8%) and very high frequencies in the rest of Iberia (17.7% - 24.3%), Morocco (19.2%), and Sardinia (17.9%). The spatial pattern depicted in figure 3 appears to indicate the presence of an overall gradient for H1, with a peak centered at the most southwestern edge of Europe and in Morocco and declining frequencies towards both the northeast and southeast…
The frequency decline of both H1 and H3 from their peaks centered in southwestern Europe is not completely uniform, but a few intermediate local peaks are also observed. Both Austria and Estonia harbor peaks for haplography H1 (14.4% and 16.7%, respectively), whereas a local maximum of H3 is observed in Hungary (6.2%). Some intermediate peaks are indeed expected, as a result of random genetic drift. However, in some instances, these could also indicate a more direct genetic link of the populations living in these areas with those of southwestern Europe than with their current surrounding neighbors…
In conclusion, our analysis of complete mtDNA sequences reveals that haplogroup H, the most common haplogroup in western Eurasia, can be subdivided into numerous sister clades. Among these, two - H1 and H3 - were particularly common in our sample of H sequences, suggesting that a phylogeographic study focusing on the two subhaplogroups could be particularly informative. Indeed, the survey of a wide range of western Eurasian and North African populations revealed that, in contrast to haplogroup H as a whole, which harbors a rather uniform frequency within Europe, both subhaplogroups H1 and H3 are characterized by frequency peaks centered in Iberia and surrounding areas and by declining distributions toward the northeast and southeast.
And now, from Cherni et al.,
Female gene pools of Berber and Arab neighboring communities in central Tunisia: microstructure of mtDNA variation in North Africa.
Cherni L, Loueslati BY, Pereira L, Ennafaa H, Amorim A, El Gaaied AB.
Laboratory of Molecular Genetics, Immunology, and Biotechnology, Faculty of Sciences of Tunis, University of Tunis, El Manar II 1060, Tunisia.
North African populations are considered genetically closer to Eurasians than to sub-Saharans. However, they display a considerably high mtDNA heterogeneity among them, namely in the frequencies of the U6, East African, and sub-Saharan haplogroups. In this study, we describe and compare the female gene pools of two neighboring Tunisian populations, Kesra (Berber) and Zriba (non-Berber), which have contrasting historical backgrounds. Both populations presented lower diversity values than those observed for other North African populations, and they were the only populations not showing significant negative Fu's F(S) values.
Kesra displayed a much higher proportion of typical sub-Saharan haplotypes (49%, including 4.2% of M1 haplogroup) than Zriba (8%). With respect to U6 sequences, frequencies were low (2% in Kesra and 8% in Zriba), and all belonged to the subhaplogroup U6a. An analysis of these data in the context of North Africa reveals that the emerging picture is complex, because Zriba would match the profile of a Berber Moroccan population, whereas Kesra, which shows twice the frequency of sub-Saharan lineages normally observed in northern coastal populations, would match a western Saharan population except for the low U6 frequency.
The North African patchy mtDNA landscape has no parallel in other regions of the world and increasing the number of sampled populations has not been accompanied by any substantial increase in our understanding of its phylogeography. Available data up to now rely on sampling small, scattered populations, although they are carefully characterized in terms of their ethnic, linguistic, and historical backgrounds.
It is therefore doubtful that this picture truly represents the complex historical demography of the region rather than being just the result of the type of samplings performed so far.
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A corresponding earlier comment, albeit with modification:
Interesting, that the "Berber" group [Kesra] of the sampled Tunisian population showed up more " typical sub-Saharan" haplotypes, than the "non-Berber" group [Zriba], which as the study points out, is out of sync with common presumptions amongst Euro-historians; it is often assumed that the Arab coastal Africans would have 'higher sub-Saharan specific' mtDNA lineages, because of the "selling of slaves" during the "Middle Ages", at the height of the trans-Saharan trade. Findings like this, bust such presumptions. I can only assume local females were not abandoned by the "male-biased" immigrants from east Africa. However, the European female slavery in north Africa, would explain the higher incidence of European lineages in much of the "sampled" coastal west African "Berber" groups.
quote:Interesting, that the "Berber" group [Kesra] of the sampled Tunisian population showed up more " typical sub-Saharan" haplotypes, than the "non-Berber" group [Zriba], which as the study points out, is out of sync with common presumptions amongst Euro-historians; it is often assumed that the Arab coastal Africans would have 'higher sub-Saharan specific' mtDNA lineages, because of the "selling of slaves" during the "Middle Ages", at the height of the trans-Saharan trade. Findings like this, bust such presumptions.
posted
^And the additional point is to show the "patchy" nature of samplings thus far done in coastal Northwest Africa, i.e. the case purposefully made by one of the posted studies. To date, I still don't know deeper implications of the 'importance' which the topic author is attaching to Eurasian mtDNA. While some coastal North African 'Berber' speaking groups show considerable incidence of European mtDNA, others don't. Heterogeneity in coastal north Africa is complex, as is to be expected, with the region being in between the greater part of the African continent and northern Eurasia. This 'intermediary' location naturally finds reflection in the gene pools. Coastal north Africans don't identify with Europeans; and while there are minority communities among them, who wouldn't mind identifying with Arab culture, many more maintain an 'indigenous' identity.
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posted
Europeans don't identify with Maghrebians either considering that many in European nations like France live in squalor. Historically, Algerians,despite often having a similar phenotype to Europeans, have a lot of disdain for Europeans.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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Europeans don't identify with Maghrebians either considering that many in European nations like France live in squalor.
And it shows quite blatantly, socially, in France. I mean, who can forget recent incidents of riots in that country?
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posted
^ Some North Africans, and East Africans too are wise to the games played by Eurocentric anthropology.
Yes they are quick to declare all kinds of people caucasian or semi-caucasian.
No, that does not mean they respect or feel any kinship with said people.
Their reasons are territorial. The goal is to use race to claim North Africa and East Africa as European territory racially.
And example of how ludicrous this ideology can be was provided recently by a study of footprints in North Africa, which were likened to the Fulani - and so declared leucoderm - literally meaning white skinned.
Does the author believe Fulani are white? Of course not.
But he can use them to claim 'white territory' in North Africa. Why not?
Thus evidence of Fulani in North Africa - means North Africa does not belong to - the Fulani - but rather, to the "leucoderm, white race." That's how the game is played.
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