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rasol, I cannot help it if you are so demented you cannot understand the basic concept of citizenship.
Posts: 904 | From: Texana | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote: "cleo could have been 1/8 egyptian" is a lie??
Non-sequitur means -> it does not follow, logically.
Non-sequiturs are common in pseudo-scientific and otherwise dishonest thesis.
A non-sequitur thesis is one in which you make a far fetched claim - and then attempt a fake defense of it by making less far fetched claims which, even if true, would not prove the original claim.
The hoped for response is that those who debunked the original claim will chase you around as you make ever less ridiculous claims - the goal being to give the impression that the original claim is being bolstered.
The feared response, is that non-sequiturs will be dismissed as irrelevant, so leaving the liar with no tool with which to distract our attention from the original lie.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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Here is and accurate, and devastating thesis on Ptolemic Egypt:
Eugene Stovall
Watching a local television program recently, I heard Spike Lee express his belief that Queen Cleopatra of Egypt was black. The African-American hostess of the TV show agreed with Mr. Lee saying “Cleopatra certainly looked nothing like Elizabeth Taylor”. But the historical facts contradict Spike Lee’s belief. Queen Cleopatra VII of Egypt [for indeed that was who Spike Lee was referring to] was definitely not black. And since I have dared to follow in the footsteps of that literary genius, Frank Yerby who was known as ‘debunker of historical myth’, I realized that I had to marshal the proofs of Queen Cleopatra’s ancestry that would satisfy any reasonable person that she was a white European.
Though not proof of her ancestry, Queen Cleopatra VII’s sluttish conduct cannot be admired by anyone interested in heralding the achievements of black culture. Cleopatra behaved shamefully in the furtherance of her ambitions. Her sole interest was to control the affairs of Rome from her bedchamber. She married both her younger and elder brothers and quickly arranged for their early deaths to consolidate her hold on the throne of Alexandria. She became the mistress of Pompey, Julius Caesar as well as Mark Antony, giving birth to a number of illegitimate Roman bastards. But in the end, her faithlessness to her Roman lovers caused her own demise. Cleopatra VII died a suicide. Her only accomplishment was to secure the wealth and labor of Egypt for the Roman imperium. It took the Prophet Muhammad to free Egypt from the European slavery imposed by this Greco-Macedonian woman.
The first proof of Cleopatra’s ancestry lies in the nature of the Ptolemaic dynasty, itself. It was as impossible for a black Egyptian to be a descendant of Ptolemy and sit on his throne as it was for a Jew to head up Hitler’s Death’s Head S.S. organization.
And Cleopatra was the last of the Ptolemaic dynasty to rule Egypt. This dynasty emerged and perpetrated itself by intrigue, incest, conspiracy and murder. The Ptolemies ruled from the enclave fortress of Alexandria named for Alexander the Great. No one who was not Greek, Macedonian or a slave was even given free access to the city of Alexandria, not to mention the palace. The royal family of Ptolemies was as inbred as any European royalty and the name Cleopatra was reserved for the daughters of most noble of the Greco-Macedonian families.
The first Cleopatra was the niece of Attalus, a Macedonian noble and general. Philip, Alexander’s father, had an affair with Cleopatra. When she became pregnant, Attalus forced Philip to set aside Alexander’s mother, Olympias to marry his niece. Rather than give up the Macedonian throne to Cleopatra’s child, Olympias and Alexander hired Pausanias to assassinate Philip. Discovering how easy it was to gain the throne of Macedonia through murder, Alexander allowed his bloodlust to rage unchecked. He assaulted kingdoms in Greece and across the Aegean Sea in Persia, Armenia, Palestine, Assyria, Parthia, and finally into India. The conquered Persians were forced to relinquish their control of Egypt to the Macedonians. Whereupon Alexander established a great port city of Alexandria at the mouth of the Nile River easily accessible to both the Mediterranean and Red seas. Alexandria faced a great harbor and was connected by earthenworks to the Island of Pharos where a gigantic lighthouse was built. The beacon of this lighthouse stretched across the Mediterranean Sea and was visible from Crete and as far away as Greece. So marvelously engineered was the lighthouse that Pharos became known as one of the seven wonders of the ancient world. Its purpose was to guide ships from Europe to Alexandria to carry away the treasures and bounty that the Macedonians had looted from temples and storehouses located all over Egypt.
In order to secure the transfer of African wealth to Europe, Alexander consulted the eunuch, Bagoas who had administered Egypt for Artaxerxes III. In orders to retain control over the Egyptian population, Bagoas recommend that Alexander declare himself a god and deny Egyptians access to Alexandria. Alexander followed the eunuch’s advice and not only did the looting of Egypt continue unhindered even in Alexander’s absence but it became a great European sanctuary affording the Europeans from Macedonia, Greece as well as all other parts of Alexander’s empire protection from and control over their Egyptian subjects. Alexandria became a European delight; every home in the city had running water, delivered by cisterns, and kept clean by slaves. There was such peace and tranquility established in Alexandria that over 500,000 precious books and scrolls from every part the Macedonian empire were delivered to a magnificent library where Greek scholars were invited to research the mysteries of man.
Alexander implemented the Greek notion of citizenship taught to him by Aristotle. No free, dark-skinned Egyptian was permitted entry into Alexandria. Only Egyptian servants and slaves were permitted. Alexander implemented the practice of castration among the slaves and servants. Castration was not new to Egyptians. Both the Egyptians and Numidians practiced castration on each other after their successive wars. In 1300 B.C. the Egyptians castrated over 13,000 Numidian prisoners of war. But now Alexander coined a new word for castrates. He called them eunouchos, keeper of the bedchamber. Thus, Egypt was brought low before its new Macedonia rulers. All administrative and political functions emanated from those who wielded power in Alexandria. The centuries-old Egyptian capitol of Thebes and the religious temples of Memphis which nestled in the bosom of mother Africa more than 500 miles to the south became ghost towns, museums of antiquity. Egyptian culture was relegated to the dustbin of history. From their new enclave of Alexandria, Europeans completely controlled all political and religious power in Egypt. And no African or Egyptian castrated slave sired any children in the European sanctuary of Alexandria. But then in 323 B.C., Alexander was murdered and his empire disintegrated into several pieces. Ptolemy, Alexander’s boyhood companion and general in Alexander’s army seized control of Egypt and thus the Ptolemaic dynasty was born. And some two hundred years later, Cleopatra VII became the last Ptolemaic ruler.
The first task Ptolemy had to accomplish after seizing control was to avoid internal conflicts, assassinations and conspiracies raging in all the other parts of Alexander’s empire. Ptolemy believed that his rule in Egypt would remain peaceful as long as Alexander remained a God. So Ptolemy resolved that the worship of Alexander would be kept intact. He created a death cult that worshipped the god, Serapis and the goddess Isis. Serapis was a fusion of Osiris and Apis. But since Alexandria was a European city the image of the god, Serapis had to be European. So Ptolemy sent his men to the town of Sinope which sat on the southern coast of the Black Sea to steal a huge Grecian statue which Ptolemy identified as the god, Serapis. It was from the town of Sinope that Diogenes came. Alexander had once said that if he had not been Alexander he would have wanted to be Diogenes. And Diogenes the Cynic had said: “Scruple not to perform the deeds of darkness in broad daylight.” Having secured the stolen image, Ptolemy housed the Sinopean statue in a great temple named the Serapion, which became a wonder and the site of pilgrimage for Europeans throughout the Mediterranean world. Ptolemy had the statue declared to be the god, Serapis, by the authority of a hierophant of the Eleusinian Mysteries and an Egyptian priest, Manetho. Serapis was enshrined as the dread god of Hades and his priests, the eunouchos, practiced ritualistic murder and other diabolical practices. And the worship of Serapis, known as the god of the living dead, and Isis became so successful for the Ptolemies that in the 5th century A.D. Macrobius says in his Saturnalia that: “In the city on the borders of Egypt which boasts Alexander of Macedon as its founder, Sarapis (sic) and Isis are worshipped with a reverence that is almost fanactical.” And indeed the pilgrims took this savage worship back to Europe where in the fifteenth century A.D. it found adherents among those opposing Egyptian culture personified by the Ottomans in the wilds of Transylvania.
Empowered by this new religion and protected by their army of castrates, the first three Ptolemies were able to peacefully plunder Egypt without any undo interference from the native Egyptians. But this peaceful interlude was shattered sometime during the reign of Ptolemy IV as the discovery of the Rosetta Stone demonstrates. Because it was then that the Macedonian plunderers learned how to translate the Egyptian hieroglyphics into Greek and as they began to unlock the secrets of the pyramids, the Ptolemies learned of new sources of fabulous wealth. From that time onward, the dynasty had to fight off attempts by Alexander’s other descendants and nobles, the Seleucids of Syria and the Antigonids of Greece, to grab Egypt’s newly found treasures for themselves. Rome also began to covet the wealth of Egypt and began to conspire with the Seleucids and Antigonids against the Ptolemies. No outrage was too great, no sacrilege too unholy for the Ptolemies to keep control. Ptolemy IV, himself, murdered his mother, his brother and his uncle to stay on the throne. In order to withstand these conspiracies, the beleaguered Ptolemies needed the assistance of several Cleopatras.
Ptolemy V married Queen Cleopatra, daughter of Antiochus, king of Greece, but to no avail. He was poisoned in 181. Ptolemy VI married Queen Cleopatra II of the noble Seleucid family. His brother Ptolemy VII had him killed and then married his widow. Afterwards Ptolemy VII had Cleopatra II, his brother’s widow killed and he married Cleopatra III, his niece, the daughter of his murdered brother and his murdered wife. Ptolemy VIII ruled jointly with his mother Cleopatra III. But his mother Queen Cleopatra III dethroned him in favor of her younger son Ptolemy IX. After the coup, Ptolemy IX promptly had his mother, Queen Cleopatra III, murdered. Cleopatra IV and Cleopatra V were daughters of Cleopatra III and Ptolemy VII. Ptolemy XI son of Ptolemy VIII and Cleopatra V had children, Ptolemy XII, Ptolemy XIII, Berenice VI, Arsinoe IV, Cleopatra VI and Queen Cleopatra VII the last ruler of the Ptolemaic dynasty. Guarded within the royal enclave of Alexandria by eunuchs, both guards and priests, initiated into the Eleusinian mysteries and adherents to the practices of a European death cult with its foundational commitment to racism, all of these Cleopatras were of noble birth and direct descendants of Macedonian families. None of them, least of all Queen Cleopatra VII were black.
It was the historian, J. A. Rogers who made the assertion that Queen Cleopatra was black in his work, World’s Great Men of Color . A scholar who did pioneering research in the area of black history, Rogers is responsible for bringing a sense of pride to black people when whites were depicting African-Americans as ‘sambos’ and ‘coons’. However, in this case, Rogers is wrong. The reason that white scholarship has not been more forceful in disproving his thesis is that they would have to admit to a death cult that still exists and reveal how theories of enclaves and segregation are imposed using religious principles for the purposes of colonization and oppression. It is these principles that can be used to trace European … as well as Islamic … expansion throughout history. In this case Rogers makes a number of errors that leads him to the wrong conclusion. Rogers incorrectly identifies Ptolemy XIII as Queen Cleopatra’s father. This mistake results from his identifying Soter II as Ptolemy XI instead of Ptolemy VIII. In reality, the father of Queen Cleopatra VII is actually Ptolemy XI. Ptolemy XIII who Rogers identifies as Cleopatra’s father is actually her brother. Rogers also states that there are no bonafide portraits of Cleopatra . This may be true in the strictest sense; however, there are plenty of pictures of Queen Cleopatra VII. For me the most striking picture of her is on a coin that she, herself, minted. On one side of the coin is the face of Mark Antony, on the opposite is Cleopatra’s face rendered in a classical Grecian image. The only way it could be argued that Cleopatra VII was black is to say that she deliberately gave herself a European image.
One of the most effective arguments against the notion that Cleopatra was black comes from contemporary sources. When Julius Caesar took Cleopatra back to Rome with him the last Punic War had been concluded less than one hundred years. Romans as well as Italians still remembered how Hannibal, a black man, had ravaged their country and how they avoided total starvation only through the goodwill of Ptolemy who supplied Rome with wheat. Cato was not alone in his opinion that “it was the right way to bring Rome to flourish, when noble-born citizens would not suffer mean-born men and upstarts … to go before them in honor…”. Certainly there would have been some protest against Caesar’s Numidian mistress as she would have been called. But none was raised. Cleopatra was accepted for what she was the Macedonian Queen of Egypt. But her attempt to make Caesar a king ended with his assassination. Certainly, if she had been black, someone would have mentioned it. And again when Plutarch describes Cleopatra’s beauty, he makes no mention of her being black. “Now her beauty (as it is reported) was not so passing, as unmatchable of other women, nor yet such as upon present view did enamor men with her …” .
There is one reference to Cleopatra VII from Plutarch that should be considered. When Octavian and Mark Antony squared off against each other in a war that will decide whether Rome or Egypt will be the center of power of the new European empire, Plutarch reports that Octavian thought little of Mark Antony chances. Caesar, correctly as it turned out, believed that Cleopatra’s domination of Antony would be his undoing despite his superior military force. In ridiculing Mark Anthony, Plutarch says: “And Caesar said furthermore, that Anthony was not master of himself, but Cleopatra has brought him beside himself by her charms and amorous poisons, and [Anthony’s war council is made up of] Mardian the eunuch … and Iras, a woman of Cleopatra’s bed chamber that frizzled [Cleopatra’s] hair and dressed her head …”. But Plutarch explains why Cleopatra needed her hair ‘frizzled’. When they appeared in public, Plutarch describes the dress of Cleopatra’s sons and then that of the queen, herself: “… she brought out Alexander in a long gown after the fashion of the Medes, with a high copped tank hat on his head, narrow in the top, as the kings of the Medes and Armenians do use to wear them; and Ptolemy appeared in a cloak after the Macedonian manner , with slippers on his feet and a broad hat, and old attire of the ancient kings and successors of Alexander the Great. “… Now for Cleopatra, she did not only wear at that time, but at all other times else when she came abroad, the apparel of the goddess Isis, and so gave audience unto all her subjects as a new Isis.” Queen Cleopatra was an initiate into the Eleusinian mysteries and the high priestess of the Ptolemaic death cult dedicated to the god Serapis as depicted by the cynic Diogenes. No black woman could have been initiated into these rites as a high priestess of those mysteries that have been the foundation of white European culture from ancient times to the present. http://www.authorsden.com/categories/story_top.asp?catid=34&id=23075Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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Was Cleopatra A Black Woman! By Robert N. Taylor, Contributing Writer February 12, 2007
The bottom line is that Cleopatra VII was not pure Macedonian Greek. She was almost certainly of mixed ethnic or racial background. That mixture may have been a grandmother who was black but we simply do not know for sure because Auletes appears to have hidden evidence of his mother's background in order to defeat a Roman (not Greek or Egyptian) challenge to his rule.
From the Egyptology Blog:
If Cleopatra VII had any black blood, it would have come from her father's [Ptolemy XII's] side of the family. There is some reason to believe that Auletes' mother — Cleopatra's grand mother — was a black woman.
posted
Myra, there is no evidence that her grand mother had black blood. That issue comes up because we do not know anything about her grandmother. Some nitwit afrocentrics like to say that since we do not know what she was she COULD have been black. That is not evidence.
Posts: 904 | From: Texana | Registered: Aug 2006
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Firstly, what AFROCENTRICS are you talking about? Afrocentrics do not CARE about Cleopatra because she was GREEK. She had nothing to do with the ancient Egyptian Kings and Queens being black Africans. Nobody is basing their ideas on the origins of the ancient Egyptians on the geneaology of Cleopatra, because she has nothing to DO with it.
Posts: 8897 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
That may be true Doug but Afrocentrics have raised that issue in the past. I agree that most do not care but you just saw Myra raise the issue, it floats around out there from time to time.
Posts: 904 | From: Texana | Registered: Aug 2006
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posted
The thing is she could've 1/4th any ethny in the far flung Greco-Roman empire or trade network, not just 1/4th Egyptian (or other kind of black).
The relevant thing is to peruse the primary documents (or their translation) and see what the Ptolemys themselves used as ethnic identifier.
Rarely do conquerers adopt the identity of the conquered.
As for the Afrocentrics tauting a black Cleopatra we already have a definitive denial of any such nonsense from one of the prime Afrocentrics. One need only go back to the 1st page of this thread to read.
Dissemblers with short attention spans take note. We've dismissed this false notion time and again.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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Member Rated: posted 16 February, 2007 08:36 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The thing is she could've 1/4th any ethny in the far flung Greco-Roman empire or trade network,
For me this thread is less about Macedonian/Greek Cleopatra than the sad fact that too many lack a good grasp of the basic principals of critical thinking, which is why they are so easily led astray by nonsense.
In logical argumentation: You are not free to ignore the known evidence, and then speculate it against it based what is not known - about which - by definition, nothing may be concluded.
Nor can you utilise non-sequitur arguments about Cleopatra's unnkown ancestry in order to claim that *she* is black - again this is a non-sequitur, invalid argument.
The sad part about the Black Cleopatra silliness is that it relies on committing most every basic error of sloppy thinking and pseudoscience.
Not to be mean,but the only point such folks make is that they don't know how to think.
They are free to be as angry as they like over the above observation, in the meantime I humbly suggest a re-reading of the following over and again, until it sinks in....
quote:If Cleopatra VII had any black blood, it would have come from her father's [Ptolemy XII's] side of the family
.....
Respectfully Myra, what part of the former post on non-sequiturs did you not understand?
Do some confuse the Ptolemy with Brad Pitt and Angelena Joilee? [white liberals who "adopt" Africa?? which then thru the power of dippy thinking - makes them honorary blacks?]
Reality check, were are discussing the Ptolemy(!):
quote: It was as impossible for a black Egyptian to be a descendant of Ptolemy and sit on his throne as it was for a Jew to head up Hitler’s Death’s Head S.S. organization.
....for the last time, these people were not Black and not Egyptian.
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posted
better said, they were not black but the were Egyptian. rasol wants to try to convince us that citizenship is tied to one's ethnic background. Every fifth grader knows that is not the case.
Posts: 904 | From: Texana | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:rasol wants to try to convince us that citizenship is tied to one's ethnic background.
The subject of the thread, per the topic *is* Cleopatra's ethnic identity....which is Greek Macedonian and not Black African Ancient Egyptian.
When proven wrong, as you always are, you attempt your usual clown-antics of changing the subject, in this case to politics.
Politically, Cleopatra was a Greco-Roman political-whore, but that's off topic.
Beause any *5th grader* knows better than to chase "Arrow" EgyptSearchs class clown and chronic fool around as he tries to hide his stupidity behind changes of subject.
Arrow, get it thru your pointed/empty head, that once we have corrected your ignorance we are quite done with you.
You may now go stand/silently in the dunce corner, where you belong.
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posted
^Cleopatra is immaterial to the Nile Valley complex as an African accomplishment. As such, imo the question of her "Africanity" [which her ethnic background was not] is not worth the trouble of going through 2 or more pages of threads.
-------------------- Truth - a liar penetrating device! Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
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posted
The question was , "was she Egyptian," she was. That you call her a whore is a cheap shot. had she come to Egypt as a Kushite princess you would be singing her praises. Not only is rasol intimidated by all things European he is the resident Egyptsearch racist, calling Cleo a whore proves that beyond question.
Posts: 904 | From: Texana | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:Originally posted by ARROW99: The question was , "was she Egyptian," she was. That you call her a whore is a cheap shot. had she come to Egypt as a Kushite princess you would be singing her praises. Not only is rasol intimidated by all things European he is the resident Egyptsearch racist, calling Cleo a whore proves that beyond question.
She was not ethnically related to the people who ORIGINALLY populated the Nile Valley and created the Dynastic Egyptian civilization. She was ethnically GREEK by blood and NOT Egyptian by blood even if she was Queen of Egypt. You can understand the point by the context it is put in and the context was ethnicity and phenotype not nationality. Cleopatra adopted Egyptian styles and customs to legitimize herself to the population, but she was still ETHNICALLY Greek and phenotypically pale skinned.
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posted
Doug, The fact that she was 'ethnically Greek' is of zero importance, she was still Egyptian. My neighbord are ethnically Italian but they are still Americans.
Posts: 904 | From: Texana | Registered: Aug 2006
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posted
Can we all agree that Cleopatra was an Egyptian Queen of the Ptolemaic Dynasty and that without any evidence to the contrary her ancestry was most likely, solely Macedonian Greek?
quote:Originally posted by ARROW99: Doug, The fact that she was 'ethnically Greek' is of zero importance, she was still Egyptian. My neighbord are ethnically Italian but they are still Americans.
It is if you are talking about ethnicity and blood lines. Nationality is not ethnicity. Nationality only means living in a nation and has NOTHING to do with your place of birth, physical features or hereditary genetic signature. We know that and no one, at least myself, is confused about this. Hence, the point being made is that Egyptian as a nationality included many who were ethnically UNRELATED to the original populations who created the dynastic Nile Valley civilization of Kmt. Cleopatra most definitely falls into this category. Just as modern European Americans are NOT related to the people who originally settled North American, even though they are all AMERICANS by nationality.
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posted
I'll never agree to that because it's a lie. Being queen of Egypt and being an Egyptian queen aren't the same thing.
Where the question divided into its components I'd fully agree she was Macedonian (not Greek) and she was the last of the Ptolemaic usurpers who made the bloodiest of royal bloodbaths out of each other, just to reign over a population they basically despised but who's knowledge and resources they cherished.
As for the bust, is it authentic? It features somewhat follow her own struck coins but what's the actual provenance of that bust?
quote:Originally posted by Mansa Musa: Can we all agree that Cleopatra was an Egyptian Queen of the Ptolemaic Dynasty and that without any evidence to the contrary her ancestry was most likely, solely Macedonian Greek?
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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Below left isn't quite what I saw in Rogers but here she is as ntjrt Auset/Hathor. Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:I'll never agree to that because it's a lie. Being queen of Egypt and being an Egyptian queen aren't the same thing.
Where the question divided into its components I'd fully agree she was Macedonian (not Greek) and she was the last of the Ptolemaic usurpers who made the bloodiest of royal bloodbaths out of each other.
Correct.
This thread is much like the meaning of Km.t threads.
The correct answer is given almost immediately.
A series of predictable, boringly bad and banal 'arguments' to the contrary are made.
They are systematically and easily destroyed one by one.
False arguments are exhausted.
The thread quiets down.
And then someone comes by and repeats *the same silly arguments* that have already been destroyed earlier in the thread....and the cycle starts all over again.
In a few more months [maximum], we will likely have another one of these threads.
Some folks can learn....some can't.
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posted
Takruri and rasol, you guys are just so hung up in racist dogma you cannot deal with the question in any kind of rational manner.
Posts: 904 | From: Texana | Registered: Aug 2006
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posted
^ It's also this kind of stupidly redundant thread that Arrow aka "Professor" Horemheb thrives on.
One of the reasons the forum was able in the past to rid itself of such retarded vermin was by not indulging their ignorance.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: I'll never agree to that because it's a lie. Being queen of Egypt and being an Egyptian queen aren't the same thing.
I didn't mean to imply that she was an indegenious Egyptian, only that she was Queen of Egypt.
Indeed there is a difference. There were several prominent Egyptian Queens who committed more to Pharonic Civilization such as Hatshepsut, Tiye and Nefertiti.
Cleopatra was the monarch of a foreign regime who's life and position in Egyptian history has been highly romanticized by European historians.
quote:Where the question divided into its components I'd fully agree she was Macedonian (not Greek)
Yes, the Ptolemies were ethnically Macedonian and Hellenic culturally.
quote:As for the bust, is it authentic? It features somewhat follow her own struck coins but what's the actual provenance of that bust?
The image is said to be of a limestone bust of Cleopatra VII from the Altes Museum, located in Berlin, Germany.
To the forum at large: You want a black Cleo? Well, she ain't gittin no blacker than this!!!
Black basalt statue of Cleopatra VII, around 51 - 30 B.C. This Egyptian style statue is one of the best preserved representations of a Ptolemaic queen.
quote: Cleopatra VII Philopator (January 69 B.C. – August 12, 30 B.C.) was queen of ancient Egypt, the last member of the Ptolemaic dynasty and hence the last Hellenistic ruler of Egypt.
Cleopatra is Greek for "father's glory," and her full name, "Cleopatra Thea Philopator" means "the Goddess Cleopatra, the Beloved of Her Father." She was the third daughter of the king Ptolemy XII Auletes, with whom she was first made to rule.
A Greek by language and culture, Cleopatra is reputed to have been the first member of her family in their 300-year reign in Egypt to have learned the Egyptian language.
quote:I didn't mean to imply that she was an indegenious Egyptian
Thus it is incorrect to reference her as and Egyptian Queen.
Thus we re-post the same facts over and over.....
quote:Cleopatra was Macedonian Greek, not Egyptian. She chose to portray herself as an Egyptian not because she was Egyptian, but because she was ambitious to stay in power." - Classicist, Mary Lefkowitz
^ The above factual statement is essentially *the end* of this topic
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posted
^ Lol. I actually dubbed him the Professor - since he claimed a college education, and attempted to strike a condescending tone.
Yet, based on the subliterate level of his postings he is more likely and American High School Flunk out.
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posted
Ain't no way to get personal with a Blatttela germanica is there?
Besides, Ausar confirmed there's no ES AE&E policy on ad homina. No one sure as hell cares when its Jews who're anti-semitically demonized, but joke benignly about this two time loser banned Euro troller and swift comes the "leave him alone."
Well we're gonna beat 'im up and take away his balloons whenever he comes clowning around and ad nausea-ously repeats the same clap trap after we just presented cited source material.
He does this under the principal that the last word heard is the only word. Well, we ain't givin 'im the last word unless he's the last word in derision.
posted
Well guys I am sorry to do this, but I think it will be useful *cringing*
I am going to play devil's advocate concerning Cleopatra and I only ask for mature, discerning and unemotional responses to reply here.
The bust that Alktruri showed of Cleopatra looks "black/African/Egyptian" due to the assumption that Egyptians were black, the wood it is carved in and the body type (I mean come on aint no white girl got an African shape like that *snickering* I know my beautiful sistas). Also the heiroglyph of Cleopatra shown above looks typically Egyptian and I have seen other glyphs where she is painted "brown".
Now, since we know for a fact that Cleopatra was a macedonian, but looks typically Egyptian in Egyptian art (I think yall figured out where I am going lol) how many of the other Egyptians rulers aren't black/African/Egyptian that we "think" are due to the art techniques used in Egypt(like I said I hate doing this, but we gotta). What if the artists in Egypt were always black/Egyptian/African regardless of who ruled them and they paint or make anything and anyone in "THEIR" black/African/Egyptian image no matter whether the person being painted was black/African/Egyptian or not.
For Example queen Tiye; her bust is made in the same style and same wood and we "assume" she is black/African/Egyptian and "looks" it, but so does Cleopatra here.
Also, the color brown denotes "strength" and most women were painted "yellow" to denote weakness(but not in a bad way). Very few queens were painted brown or black and if they were they were bad ass women seen as equal to the men(which were painted brown unless old or young). So when we look at these pictures and see brown now that we know Cleopatra was not black/African/Egyptian we can't assume everyone we see brown are black/African/Egyptian.
I am really interested in people like Asaru's comments on this post and again lol I am sorry for the devil's advocacy, but I really think this needs to be looked at.
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quote:Originally posted by vidadavida: Well guys I am sorry to do this, but I think it will be useful *cringing*
But it isn't "useful" at all.
Your question has already been answered.
Did you even bother to read the thread before replying?
quote:The bust that Alktruri showed of Cleopatra looks "black/African/Egyptian"
See what I mean?
This was already answered, and Altakruri's whole point in showing to bust was to illucidate: She chose to portray herself as an Egyptian not because she was Egyptian, but because she was ambitious to stay in power." - Classicist, Mary Lefkowitz
quote:(I mean come on aint no white girl got an African shape like that *snickering*
^ You claim to want mature responses, then make snickering adolescent remarks? How is this "helpful"?
quote: but I really think this needs to be looked at.
Looking is not seeing. Seeing requires perception.
Your post was not perceptive.
None are so blind as those who will not see.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
(I mean come on aint no white girl got an African shape like that *snickering* --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
^ You claim to want mature responses, then make snickering adolescent remarks? How is this "helpful"?
quote:
Umm hmm how can I say this lol; giving respect to African women's bodies which is what this statement is implying is NOT adolescent . You need to get out more bro and if you are heterosexual you need to get a woman or something then you wouldn't have responded so oddly to a "male"(not adolescent) comment. If you are not heterosexual which I don't have a problem with or anything then nevermind the last comment .
This was already answered, and Altakruri's whole point in showing to bust was to illucidate: She chose to portray herself as an Egyptian not because she was Egyptian, but because she was ambitious to stay in power." - Classicist, Mary Lefkowitz
Well, just because Mary lefkowitz SAYS this doesn't mean anything to me really as far as the subject. Also, she could be talking about posing with Egyptian dieties and wearing an Egyptian head peace. I'm sorry rasol you know I respect you, but Lefkowitz statement really doesn't resolve the question I posed.
Posts: 271 | Registered: Feb 2007
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^ The question of Cleopatra's ethnic identity is resolved.
The question of why Ptolemy attempted to pass themselves off as Egyptians is resolved.
Your snickering "remarks" are childish and completely irrelevant to intelligent consideration of either question.
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posted
Still would like Asaru to comment on my post I know he will respond more maturely and understand what I am saying.
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^ You claim to want mature responses, then make snickering adolescent remarks? How is this "helpful"?
…correlates with a few banned posters, who have used this "snickering adolescent remarks", namely senkhemdjed, african-bible-expert, tutemkasret.
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Masonic Rebel do you understand what I am getting at about the other pharaohs and if they aren't really black either like Cleopatra? They don't seem to understand what I am asking.
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quote:Originally posted by Masonic Rebel: Theory this could be Cleopatra portraying herself as Isis
In fact....
quote:So Ptolemy resolved that the worship of Alexander would be kept intact. He created a death cult that worshipped the god, Serapis and the goddess Isis. Serapis was a fusion of Osiris and Apis. But since Alexandria was a European city the image of the god, had to be European. So Ptolemy sent his men to the town of Sinope which sat on the southern coast of the Black Sea to steal a huge Grecian statue which Ptolemy identified as the god, Serapis.
^ The Ptolmey were European fakers of Egyptian identity. This resonates strongly with the modern celebrity-cult of Cleopatra among Egyptomanical Europeans. And this is why any African who innocently repeats after this cult-fantasy are being naive to the extreme.
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quote: Rarely do conquerers adopt the identity of the conquered.
The opposite is true. Usually the majority are the conquered and therefore their culture is more dominant. The Conquerers can make changes and affect that underlying culture but the predominant aspect of it will be from the laity not the elite or rulers.
Also on the point of interchangable use of the terms European and Greek. It seems to be a new fashion to use the term European. It is not as some may asume, an interchangable term with Greek. The reason for this is that the Greek World is From Greece to Indian Southern Russia to Northern Africa. The Greeks colonised and are Europeans but that does not mean that Europeans are Greeks. We have little to share with for example the Vikings. So can everyone please make an effort, despite the great excitment of the EU, to stop using Greek History as an interchangable term for European History. Alexandria was an Egyptian city, Alexander normally created a seperate city in places he felt the people were not Greek. Egypt and India are classic examples of places where the Greeks created seperate cities. However, the process of colonisation eventuated in a predominantly Greek-Egypt while Ethiopia was probably the original inhabitants of Egypt area. Ethiopia also prospered but the majorty of Blacks from the Nile moved to the Ethiopian cities. There was no evidence of severe aggression nor fighting post colonisation which I think leads to our mixed cultural Nile Population.
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quote: Rarely do conquerers adopt the identity of the conquered.
The opposite is true.
Who now sacks, robs, raids, and steals from black neighborhoods?
Blacks!
They need to sit down 'for they fa get who da' original playaz, pimps, & hustlaz ARE!
quote:Originally posted by ARROW99: Takruri and rasol, you guys are just so hung up in racist dogma you cannot deal with the question in any kind of rational manner.
Horemheb: A question.
If I seak the "unpopular" truth, does that make me a liar?
quote:Originally posted by Supercar: As such, imo the question of her "Africanity" [which her ethnic background was not] is not worth the trouble of going through 2 or more pages of threads.
quote: Masonic Rebel do you understand what I am getting at about the other pharaohs and if they aren't really black either like Cleopatra?
Well I understand the part about Mary Lefkowitz she’s an amateur who keeps beating this issue about Cleopatra to Death, but ignore the rest of the Pharaohs who were Black.
Queen Nefertari
Why is that?
If she was really a Serious Scholar for one she would know that Philosophy, Law ,Science and Religion came out of Africa.
No doubt
We Need Learn All we Can about the Real African Rulers of Kemet before the History or Physical Evidence is Gone, in my opinion too much time is focus on Cleopatra, at one time I was guilty of this myself so once again I'm
Moving On
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UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
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Maybe you didn't.
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that once we have corrected your ignorance we are quite done with you.
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. You need to get out more bro and if you are heterosexual you need to get a woman or something then you wouldn't have responded so oddly to a "male"(not adolescent) comment. If you are not heterosexual which I don't have a problem with or anything then nevermind the last comment ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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