posted
Genetic testing of the Ainu people has shown them to belong mainly to Y-haplogroup D.
[2] The only places outside of Japan in which Y-haplogroup D is common are Tibet and the Andaman Islands.
[3] About one in eight Ainu men have been found to belong to Haplogroup C3, which is the most common Y-chromosome haplogroup among the indigenous populations of the Russian Far East and Mongolia.
Genetic origins of the Ainu inferred from combined DNA analyses of maternal and paternal lineages http://www.springerlink.com/content/myajcelww7jeh0xf/ On the paternal side, the vast majority (87.5%) of the Ainu exhibited the Asian-specific YAP+ lineages (Y-haplogroups D-M55* and D-M125), which were distributed only in the Japanese Archipelago in this analysis. On the other hand, the Ainu exhibited no other Y-haplogroups (C-M8, O-M175*, and O-M122*) common in mainland Japanese and Okinawans. It is noteworthy that the rest of the Ainu gene pool was occupied by the paternal lineage (Y-haplogroup C-M217*) from North Asia including Sakhalin.
Ainu have virtually no E1,E2,E3,E3a,E3b, A or B lineages, thus they have no post paleolithic [OOA] African ancestry.
This is because they are descendant from the aboriginal Eurasian populations who migrated out of rift valley Africa and into Southern Asia 70 thousand years ago.
They have been essentially genetically isolated from Africans ever since.
Even Europeans have some of of almost all the African lineages listed, but the Ainu don't.
In Cavelli Sforza's genetic study - the Ainu are most closely related to [shock] other Japanese, then Koreans, Chinese, and more distantly southern Asians and people of Melanesia.
They are much more distantly related to Europeans whose ancestral line they split from shortly after the original OOA migration.
Thus they are even more distant from Africans, further from Africans genetially than they are from virtually any other people on Earth.
No Ainu migrated from ancient Egypt to Japan.
Marc's supposed evidence to the contrary is staggering only in the sense of its utter superficiality.
The similarity of the word anu in many languages has about as much probative value as words like mama, and dada, which only relate the common origin of all humanity, which is why no linguist considered Japanese to be African language.
Physical similarites are equally superfical, especially given that most Ainu-race fantastists specialise in trying to prove that the Ainu have a Nordic-white appearance.
The fact of the matter here is that East Asians are diverse and always have been.
They should not be adjuged according to true-mongoloid vs. mixed race stereotype since there is no evidence that any such race-topology division ever existed in East Asia.
The moral to the scientific story is that human beings don't conform to racist pseudo-theories and never have.
Marc -
Someday, you will realise what a waste of time and considerable graphic skills it's been, when you select your 'my images' folder, and press the delete button on your computer.
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^ I seriously think it is too late for that (for him really). The guy is old and for a man his age to be believing in his stuff shows how warped and twisted his mind has been in all the years.
Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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By the way, the situation with the Ainu in Japan is strikingly similar to that of the Saami of Scandinavia.
The Saami are the aboriginal people of Scandinavia, yet for centuries other Europeans held theories that they are not really European but of recent Siberian ('mongoloid Asian') ancestry. This theory came about because of the Saami's 'peculiar' features such as wide faces, and slightly wide noses, as well as prominent cheek bones. Even though the Saami are among the 'whitest' people in the world with light hair and eyes being common. The Saami speak languages of the Uralic family related to Finnish but unlike the Finns, their culture retains the oldest ways of life such as hunting-and-gathering as well religious beliefs and other practices whom Europeans deemed as "primitive". In fact, because the Saami were (and still are today) practically the only people in Europe who had such a culture, other Europeans thought of them as being "savage" and "backwards". The Finns have given them the name 'Lapps' which meant something like 'native' but took on negative connotations and is now considered derogatory. Just like the Ainu who also have been discriminated against by the Japanese who also formulated 'non-Asian or recent arrivals' to take away the indigenous status of the Ainu!
It has always been convient for other Europeans to suggest that 'Lappish' folks were primitive Siberian "mongol" tribes who later mixed with whites; however, recent genetic tests have revealed that Saami are indeed indigenous to Europe and are the oldest populations of the Scandinavian region. Although they somewhat distantly related to other Europeans, they are closer in relation to other Europeans than they are to Asian Siberians and are just as closely related to Asian Siberians as other Europeans if not less so (due to recent Asian Siberian admixture among some Eastern and even Central Europeans, probably from invasions)! And no surprise that the European group whom the Saami are closest related to are the Finns.
I don't remember the source I've read it from, but it was an actual genetic study. I will try to look it up soon. But it comes to show how null racial typology is in making claims.
Then again, considering certain features of the Saami, no doubt Marc will claim 'negroid' African ancestors for them as well! LOLPosts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ I seriously think it is too late for that (for him really). The guy is old and for a man his age to be believing in his stuff shows how warped and twisted his mind has been in all the years.
How old is Marc? I think his posts reflect senility.
Posts: 7069 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
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This post is written to those where one or both parents are African. The capital of ancient Japan was Edo - now Kyoto. Along with the other African tribal names found in Hokkaido, an Ainu state, is Edo. The Edo tribe of Nigeria have masks very similar to those used in Japanese kuboki theatre. This doesn't prove African Anu roots of the Japanese Ainu but it is more evidence to consider.
-------------------- The nature of homelife is the fate of the nation. Posts: 2334 | Registered: May 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Marc Washington: This post is written to those where one or both parents are African...
Then I guess that would leave out African Americans whose ancestors have been in America for well over several generations now..
That definitely leaves out Asian peoples including Dravidians, Siberians, and the Ainu you speak of!
quote:The capital of ancient Japan was Edo - now Kyoto. Along with the other African tribal names found in Hokkaido, an Ainu state, is Edo. The Edo tribe of Nigeria have masks very similar to those used in Japanese kuboki theatre. This doesn't prove African Anu roots of the Japanese Ainu but it is more evidence to consider.
LMAOCoincidence is NOT evidence, just to let you know. Japanese like many East Asian languages is monosyllabic and tonal just like many West African languages. This does NOT mean that the said languages possess any direct, let alone genetic relation.
Then again, I am writing to the man who supports the linguistics of Clyde Winters of all people, so...
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In the United States and elsewhere in honor of respected “lands” in a people’s “relative” home of origin they name places in the new land after them. Throughout the United States is found Hampshire renamed from it’s English city. Little Italy’s are found throughout the states. By the same token, the name Edo / Ezo is found throughout Japan. There is Edo / Ezo (both names used) for the place of residence of the Ainu (renamed Hokkaido). Tokyo, the capital, itself was once also called Edo. Today there is named an Edo-Tokyo Museum. In Nigeria and in other parts of Africa is the Edo tribe. Kabuki is traditional Japanese Theatre predating the arrival of the descendents of Ghenghis and Kubla Khan who overran and populated the Far East during the European Middle Ages. Edo was one center of Kabuki theatre. Here is a Kabuki mask named at the site it appeared as an Edo mask.
The Edo masks and Kabuki masks of Japan are nearly identical to those found of the Edo tribe of Nigeria. Whereas England, France, Germany and other such places have virtually no African tribal names, Japan has dozens and Edo Island where are found the Ainu, has many. All these things add together to show an African presence in Japan and possibly an African Anu presence there.
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People think the Ainu resemble today's Japanese because academia (which used to call the Ainu "Caucasian" in the 19th and early 20 century!!!). In addition, starting near 1850, so 150 years ago, the Japanese government "removed" traditional Ainu chiefs and replaced them and encouraged intermarrying between the Ainu and Japanese and this further altered their look. So, many believe today's Japanese look is the same as that of the original Ainu look. Many white men in the late 1800s took Ainu wives as well and took on their way of life. American consultants in the 19th century also pushed Ainu culture near the brink of extinction as they "modernized" the Ainu land of Edo / Ezo Island into modern day, industrialized Hokkaido. My page at the head of this thread shows the Ainu look African. Here is the way the Japanese government prefers the world to think of the Ainu - as Japanese:
The above are some of the reasons people say the Ainu look the way the Japanese do and always have. They are just misinformed.
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quote:The above are some of the reasons people say the Ainu look the way the Japanese do and always have. They are just misinformed.
That statement is itself misinformed and and example of argument by misdirection.
What is at issue is very simple.
Are the Ainu descendant of paleolithic Asians, or Neolithic Africans?
Historians, geneticists, anthropologists and archeologists all concur that they descend from paleolithic Asians.
There is no evidence that they descend from neolithic Africans.
Pitures of Japanese demon masks are not evidence, nor are random world similarities like Edo, or Tai.
Your 100's of posting attempting to assert a fantasy that flies in the face of this reality are just a waste of time.
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THE ORIGIN OF MODERN JAPAN AND THE END OF AFRICAN JAPAN?
This is still part of the Jomon / Ainu and Japanese Edo vs. African Anu and Edo thread. I won’t connect them in this post but will return to the question later.
The above link is to a page of Samurai during the Boshin War. To my surprise, there are relatively many photographs of Samurai that look African. The farther back in time you go in Japan the more African it gets. From deep in prehistoric times probably until the 14th century, it could have been 90% African phenotypes. Interesting history. It was the Dutch back in the 1500s who supplied a warring faction with guns to break the hegemony of the Kamakura Zen Buddhists who were African.
Believe it or not, the individual who brought Japan out of a feudal state into a modern state (a George Washington, Alexander the Great, and St. Paul combined) was Shokotu in the 4th to 5th century. Bringing Buddhism to Japan; building its most splendid temples; and establishing the ethical and philosophical principles it still lives by. There are a dozen pictures of him showing him as Asian long after his death. However, his statue, which remained covered and hidden from public view for centuries in the Kinki region, Nara Prefecture, Ikaruga City, is Shotoku's Dream Hall named the Horyu-ji. From about the 10th to 19th century, it remained covered in this holiest of holy places in Japan. When it was uncovered the pictures taken of it showed him to look like the typical person in Harlem or Watts today.
It was the Tokugawa Shogunate of Edo (now modern Japan) who fought back the Monguls (so they could not have been Mongul) to keep an independent country. The military in Edo sponsored the Noh theatre (you’ve seen the pictures I shown of them – African phenotype) indicating they themselves were also of the same population. It was Admiral Perry who broke Japan open so that the West could trade with it gaining access to its wealth. Perry saw an African Japan. He destroyed an African Japan and it was American advisors who participated in the destruction of the Ainu and other part of African Japan while at the same time establishing, for all intents and purposes, a Mongul puppet government – the Meiji. In retrospect, the reason why Japan was called the hermit nation was African Japan was trying to keep the white and Mongul peoples out. And for good reason. You can see what happen when they came in. They saw the future and they were trying to prevent it.
Pictures of one or two of the 19th century Shogun leaders look, I’d say, Dutch indicating that when the Dutch began arriving in the 15th century, some / many remained and became a part of the then indigenous ruling class of the Shogun (the Edo) causing a phenotype shift that took the “appearance” in a different trajectory than an African-Mongul descendency would appear. And the descendents of Dutch-African and Mongul African would itermarry creating both a lightening and facial changing of the original peoples.
The stunning, it seems, fact, is that it was the Dutch and Americans who played a role in destroying Japan in its African phase
and setting up the Mongul population in hegemony. That appears to be the dynamic behind the emergence of modern Japan and the new world order.
That's it for now. I'll return to the thread in some days perhaps showing images the African Edo and Japanese Edo - both people of similar phenotype living in similar societies, with similar religious and mythological beliefs; in lands where the city, named after the people was also the capital of the country - as Edo was the original name of Tokyo until only a century-and-a-half ago in 1868.
Marc Washington
-------------------- The nature of homelife is the fate of the nation. Posts: 2334 | Registered: May 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ I seriously think it is too late for that (for him really). The guy is old and for a man his age to be believing in his stuff shows how warped and twisted his mind has been in all the years.
How old is Marc? I think his posts reflect senility.
Agreed.
It's sad that the only way this black American can identity with Africa is by pretending the Japanese are Africans.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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Yes you are on the right track, Ainus are probably Africans. See the research below:
ASIAN AND AFRICAN HAPLOGROUPS D AND E
Although each monophyletic haplogroup displays continental separate distributions, both share three phylogenetically equivalent binary markers indicative of unequivocal shared heritage.
The ancestors who accumulated these three mutations could have just as well arisen in Africa as in Asia.
Despite the apparent absence of any intermediate haplotypes based on these three binary polymorphisms, Africa remains the most plausible geographic origin of these three relatively old polymorphisms (Underhill and Roseman 2001).
It appears that some descendants with these three mutations remained and some left Africa to become part of the gene pool of the early successful colonizers in Asia.
Following geographic separation, subsequent continent-specific mutations arose creating the two monophyletic D and E clades in Asia and Africa, respectively.
Haplogroup E lineages are the most frequent in Africa and display subsequent binary and microsatellite diversification. Conversely, Asian haplogroup D generally occurs at low frequencies throughout eastern Asia, except in peripheral locations like Tibet, Japan, and the Andaman Islands, where significant frequencies have been observed, most likely because of founder effects (Underhill et al. 2001b; Thangaraj et al. 2003).
The Ainu of Japan are composed of both C and most likely D representatives (Tajima et al. 2002). The phylogeography suggests that Asian D lineages are likely the descendants of early Asian colonizers who arrived from Africa.
To a large degree, they have been subsequently displaced to geographic margins by pressures from demic expansions by ensuing peoples.
Yes you are on the right track, Ainus are probably Africans.
False statement as usual.
The study you cite but completely misunderstand in no way suggests this.
quote:ASIAN AND AFRICAN HAPLOGROUPS D AND E
E is African, D derivatives are Asian. Both are over 40 thousand years old. There is no E in East Asia, and there is no D in Africa. Hence Africans and East Asians are separate populations on a scale of 40 thousand years - at a minimum. This is the most that may be said for the difference between Africans and any non African population. Including whites who are also descendants of haplogroups that branch off from African M-168.
quote:Although each monophyletic haplogroup displays continental separate distributions, both share three phylogenetically equivalent binary markers indicative of unequivocal shared heritage.
Underhill here is relating the African origin of all humans.
Hence:
At least three mutations lie at the root of all the remaining Y-chromosome haplotypes that compose the majority of African and non-African lineages, namely haplogroups C through R (Underhill et al. 2001b). The mutations that define this node deep within the interior of the Y tree reflect descendants of males who successfully left Africa and formed the scaffold on which all other Y chromosome diversification with geography has accumulated.
The problem is, neither you Winters or Marc understand modern anthropology, and moreover you have no wish to, since it interferes with your penchant for fantasy-anthropology.
Therefore what Underhill is saying just goes right over your heads:
The ancestors who accumulated these three mutations could have just as well arisen in Africa as in Asia. Despite the apparent absence of any intermediate haplotypes based on these three binary polymorphisms, Africa remains the most plausible geographic origin of these three relatively old polymorphisms (Underhill and Roseman 2001).
It appears that some descendants with these three mutations remained and some left Africa to become part of the gene pool ofthe early successful colonizers in Asia.
- This means that carriers of these ancient lineages are decendant from the original settlers of Asia 50 thousand or more years ago -> not Africans from Ancient Egypt.
That's why the Japanese and other Easians share lineages such a D which are not found in Africa.
And that's why they have *no* E lineages which is the predominent clade of modern Africa.
Because their ancestors along with the ancestors of everyone else in the world, left Africa -prior- to the development of the haplotype E.
This is shown in FIGURE 1 of the map of the study you link to.
As usual, you simply tune out the vital details of these studies which contradict your thesis, so you can go on beliving in your fantasy.
Japanese are not Africans.
This is what your source is saying.
Too bad you don't understand your own source, and moreover don't want to, and so...likely never will. Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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The Ainu of Japan are composed of both C and most likely D representatives (Tajima et al. 2002). The phylogeography suggests that Asian D lineages are likely the descendants of early Asian colonizers who arrived from Africa.
To a large degree, they have been subsequently displaced to geographic margins by pressures from demic expansions by ensuing peoples.
quote:Originally posted by Lord of the Nile: The Ainu of Japan are composed of both C and most likely D representatives (Tajima et al. 2002). The phylogeography suggests that Asian D lineages are likely the descendants of early Asian colonizers who arrived from Africa.
To a large degree, they have been subsequently displaced to geographic margins by pressures from demic expansions by ensuing peoples.
posted
haplogroup D is a phylogenetic sibling of haplogroup E of Western Eurafrasia. The ancestral haplogroup DE is defined by the YAP+ Alu insertion. Haplogroup D is not however found anywhere in East Asia except in Japan and Okinawa and may represent an important link between the West (read: Africa) and the East read:Japan's Ainu) before the expansion of the Mongoloids.
J Hum Genet. 2004 Mar 2
Posts: 83 | From: Quebec, Canada | Registered: Feb 2006
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The Y Alu Polymorphism or YAP for short, is characterized by a mutational event known as Alu insertion, a 300 nucleotide fragment of DNA that on rare occasion gets inserted into different parts of the human genome during cell replication.
A man living around 50,000 years ago (somewhere in southern Asia) acquired this fragment on his Y-chromosome and passed it on to his descendants.
Over time the YAP lineage split into two distinct groups: One, Haplogroup D is found in Asia and is defined by the M174 mutation. The other, Haplogroup E is found primarily in Africa and the Mediterranean and is defined by marker M96.
quote:Originally posted by Lord of the Nile: The Ainu of Japan are composed of both C and most likely D representatives (Tajima et al. 2002). The phylogeography suggests that Asian D lineages are likely the descendants of early Asian colonizers who arrived from Africa.
What Africans have these lineages?
How old are they?
Do you know?
If not, what 'information' do you hope to impart?
quote:To a large degree, they have been subsequently displaced to geographic margins by pressures from demic expansions by ensuing peoples.
What lineages do these people have?
How old are they?
What is the genetic relationship between these [unnamed] lineages and C and D?
Do you know?
If not, what information do you hope to impart?
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Lord of the Nile: The Y Alu Polymorphism or YAP for short, is characterized by a mutational event known as Alu insertion, a 300 nucleotide fragment of DNA that on rare occasion gets inserted into different parts of the human genome during cell replication.
A man living around 50,000 years ago (somewhere in southern Asia) acquired this fragment on his Y-chromosome and passed it on to his descendants.
Over time the YAP lineage split into two distinct groups: One, Haplogroup D is found in Asia and is defined by the M174 mutation. The other, Haplogroup E is found primarily in Africa and the Mediterranean and is defined by marker M96.
The above is false as no geneticists regards YAP as originating in Asia.
One of the points of the Underhill study that you cited originally was that the DE progenator more likely originated in Africa and not Asia.
It's clear that you aren't even relating the information in the studies well enough to keep track of the meanings implied.
You also don't seem to have any grasp of time as related to anthropology.
Relating Asian populations to Africans on the scale of 50 thousand years ago, does not help you sustain the delusion that Japanese are decendant from dynastic Egyptians.
Clyde Winters knows this, but he just shines you on with your ignorance.
When Winters is pressed for specifics he claims Africans 'walked', that's right 'walked' to East Asia via the sunken continent of Lemuria during the old Kingdom of Kemet [ie - 4/5 thousand years ago].
This is prepostrous in its own right and in no way supported by anything that you've presented - which relates to all non Africans fanning out of Africa 50 thousand years ago, this applies to Germans just as much as to Australian Aboriginal, and actually Germans are more closely related to Africans.
When are you and Marc going to start getting serious and stop abusing your own minds with nonsense?
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quote:Originally posted by Lord of the Nile: The Ainu of Japan are composed of both C and most likely D representatives (Tajima et al. 2002). The phylogeography suggests that Asian D lineages are likely the descendants of early Asian colonizers who arrived from Africa.
What Africans have these lineages?
How old are they?
Do you know?
If not, what 'information' do you hope to impart?
quote:To a large degree, they have been subsequently displaced to geographic margins by pressures from demic expansions by ensuing peoples.
What lineages do these people have?
How old are they?
What is the genetic relationship between these [unnamed] lineages and C and D?
Do you know?
If not, what information do you hope to impart?
You ask many illiterate questions. They are illiterate because you assume that every African has been tested and we know what genes every African carries when most people in genetic studies are self selected.
Because subjects in genetic studies are self-selected we can not totally relie on genetic studies to provide us will complete information on the genetic character of Africans, Asians or even Europeans, we only know about the people that exist in a study.
We also have the issue of scientist publishing data that will not upset the status quo. For example, Kivisild published an article showing that M1 was found in India, and then it appears under pressure from the Hinduvista, pretends this never occured.
You respond with insults out of frustration at your inability to answer.
quote:They are illiterate because you assume that every African has been tested
This a non-sequitur. A question is not and assumption. A question can only be illiterate if there is and answer readily available in the literature. Did you reference said literature? No. Did you answer the question? No.
Therefore your response is incoherent.
quote: we know what genes every African carries when most people in genetic studies are self selected.
Now, the above is and example of and illiterate, non-answer.
If you would peruse any literature on statistics and probabilities and or population genetics, you would know that sampling entire populations is not necessary in order to produce statisically valid results. Virtually all study of biology and anthropology are based on such modeling. This includes linguistics.
By not acknowledging this you are guility oF the logical fallacy - reducing to absurdity.
For example: Have you personally spoken with every Russian?
Then how do you know that Dravidian language didn't originate in Russia? How do you know that Russians weren't the 1st to speak Dravidian?
^ Reduction to absurdity.
quote:Because subjects in genetic studies are self-selected we can not totally relie on genetic studies
^ Again reduction to absurdity. All studies on humans for medicine or any other purpose is based on self selection unless it is forced and involuntary. Self selection does not invalidate genetics.
quote:We also have the issue of scientist publishing data that will not upset the status quo.
This is a strawman argument, as it is a generic attack on science, and has nothing do with genetics per se, and most importantly - DOES NOT ANSWER MY QUESTIONS.
Moreover the status quo has been upset many times by new genetic information so it as false a claim as it is irrelevant.
quote: For example, Kivisild published an article showing that M1 was found in India
^lol. Yes that was the status quo, then other scienticists upset that status quo with additional and more precise information, and Kivisild then agreed.....there is no M1 in India.
Ironically, the only one arguing for and archaic status quo, is you.
No current anthropologist or geneticists believes Ainu are descendant from dynastic Egyptians, or that they walked from Africa to Asia via the sunken continent of Atlantis.
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No current anthropologist or geneticists believes Ainu are descendant from dynastic Egyptians, or that they walked from Africa to Asia via the sunken continent of Atlantis.
No one has made such a claim.
.
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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^ I have no interest in chasing your far-fetched claims around in and effort to pin you down.
Questions and answers:
quote:How old are [lineages C D]?
They are over 40 thousand years old.
quote:What is there genetic relationship to other lineages, African and non African?
Lineages C,D,E, and F are all derived from African M168, which is estimated to be 60+kya~ old.
E is African. C,D an F are non African.
In terms of paternal ancestry the partitioning of E on the one hand, and C D and F on the other is the very definition of African vs. non African genetically.
To assess African ancestry in non Africans, we need to find haplotype E and its derivitives.
Non Africans who have significant and recent African paternal ancestry include Southern Europeans, and SouthWest Asians.
When non Africans have C,D and F derivitives it simply denotes them as the original human settlers who migrated from rift valley Africa over 50kya.
Noting the African origins of the forebearers of C,D and F is simply a reiteration of the African origins of the species homo-sapiens, and is thus worthless for assessing ethnic/African migrations.
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But isn't F and C1 both found in Africa being the oldest of the Clades? Why is C and F not derived from B in Africa why does it have to be out of Africa if DE* came from B aswell and E is African?
Just asking for some clarification I don't know much about genetics.
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quote:But isn't F and C1 both found in Africa being the oldest of the Clades?
Good question.
F is defined by M213 and follows, M89 and M168. To my knowledge there is no population with underived F. Sometimes F is used to refer to all of vast off-shoots and sub-clades. That includes R1* which is found mostly in Cameroon.
In my opinion the most realistic assessment of these lineages is provide by Shomarka Keita.
He posits that during the time of OutOfAfrica, roughly 50 thousand years ago, stone age hunter gathers roamed NorthEast Africa and SouthWest Asia and left or spawned 'irregular' patterns of lineages.
quote:Why is C and F not derived from B in Africa
Ultimately all lineages root back to the aptly named A.
A spawns the common ancestor of B and M168.
At the time of Out of Africa there are 3 main paternal lines.
A, B and M168.
C, D, E and F are all spawned from M168.
quote: why does it have to be out of Africa if DE* came from B aswell and E is African?
DE* is the precursor to D and E, it is positioned as follows M168 -> DE* -> D and E.
DE is essentially -> YAP. This common mutation was 1st discovered in Asians and postulated to be of Asian origin.
Then it was discovered that most African have this, all E lineages have the YAP marker, which is common to all D and all E.
However to date DE* [underived] has been found only in Nigeria, so most geneticists now attribute YAP to Africa.
This is good example of how the status quo changes in science when subjected to new evidence.
What's important to understand is that if you postulate the African origin of D and F, that essentially emcompasses all non African people, native Americans, Saami, Poles, Chinese....everyone.
This is the African origin of the species homo sapiens.
Non Africans exist at and ethnic level, and can only be intelligibly defined in paternal genetics as the descendants of the OOA migrants who carried D/F, and contrasted with Africans who stayed in Africa and who carry E,A and B.
If you find a population outside of Africa, be it Greek, Arab, or African American, with substantial E,A or B lineages then they have African paternal ancestry.
Conversely a population that does not have these lineages does not have African paternal ancestry.
Tracing said population back to Africa in the upper paleolithic is really red-hering, because you are basically tracing the species origin back to the African 'adam' and 'eve'.
This is what Mark tries to do when he links the Ainu of Japan - who've been living in Asia for 50 thousand years or better based on genetics, to Ancient Egyptians.
In order to sustain this fantasy, many elementary errors have to be indulged involving sunken continents, mysterious white people who mixed with East Asians 'straightened their hair', and other assults against intelligence.
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quote:But isn't F and C1 both found in Africa being the oldest of the Clades?
Good question.
F is defined by M213 and follows, M89 and M168. To my knowledge there is no population with underived F. Sometimes F is used to refer to all of vast off-shoots and sub-clades. That includes R1* which is found mostly in Cameroon.
In my opinion the most realistic assessment of these lineages is provide by Shomarka Keita.
He posits that during the time of OutOfAfrica, roughly 50 thousand years ago, stone age hunter gathers roamed NorthEast Africa and SouthWest Asia and left or spawned 'irregular' patterns of lineages.
quote:Why is C and F not derived from B in Africa
Ultimately all lineages root back to the aptly named A.
A spawns the common ancestor of B and M168.
At the time of Out of Africa there are 3 main paternal lines.
A, B and M168.
C, D, E and F are all spawned from M168.
quote: why does it have to be out of Africa if DE* came from B aswell and E is African?
DE* is the precursor to D and E, it is positioned as follows M168 -> DE* -> D and E.
DE is essentially -> YAP. This common mutation was 1st discovered in Asians and postulated to be of Asian origin.
Then it was discovered that most African have this, all E lineages have the YAP marker, which is common to all D and all E.
However to date DE* [underived] has been found only in Nigeria, so most geneticists now attribute YAP to Africa.
This is good example of how the status quo changes in science when subjected to new evidence.
What's important to understand is that if you postulate the African origin of D and F, that essentially emcompasses all non African people, native Americans, Saami, Poles, Chinese....everyone.
This is the African origin of the species homo sapiens.
Non Africans exist at and ethnic level, and can only be intelligibly defined in paternal genetics as the descendants of the OOA migrants who carried D/F, and contrasted with Africans who stayed in Africa and who carry E,A and B.
If you find a population outside of Africa, be it Greek, Arab, or African American, with substantial E,A or B lineages then they have African paternal ancestry.
Conversely a population that does not have these lineages does not have African paternal ancestry.
Tracing said population back to Africa in the upper paleolithic is really red-hering, because you are basically tracing the species origin back to the African 'adam' and 'eve'.
This is what Mark tries to do when he links the Ainu of Japan - who've been living in Asia for 50 thousand years or better based on genetics, to Ancient Egyptians.
In order to sustain this fantasy, many elementary errors have to be indulged involving sunken continents, mysterious white people who mixed with East Asians 'straightened their hair', and other assults against intelligence.
Wow, this is a very concise answer to my question (are you watching wally? ). Thank you. I understand now, I didn't know that there are no underived F lineages; that explains alot.
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^I think Wally understand this. A better question would be: Are you reading all this, March Washington, Lord of DeNile, and Clyde Winters?? Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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I seriously think it is too late for that (for him really). The guy is old and for a man his age to be believing in his stuff shows how warped and twisted his mind has been in all the years.
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Then again, I am writing to the man who supports the linguistics of Clyde Winters of all people, so...
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