From browsing through your previous posts I am aware of what your bigoted agenda is. Do not think that my comments in any way affect my commitment to the truth about the ancient African past, including Kemet. I do not need your acknowledgement that my statements agree with you, because I am sure that we differ in most things.
??
What the hell?
I just agreed with your post, whats the reason behind this unwarranted attack?
"Bigoted agenda"?? I don't have any agenda, maybe you can tell me if you know something that i dont know?
Posts: 1420 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Neith-Athena: Mystery Solver,
I did indeed click on the link earlier because I am not too lazy to do anything, least of all that. I got "Osiris and the Egyptian Resurrection" from the library because it was quoted in the topic to which you provided the link. So I have done some of my reading. I just had specific questions, most of which you have not addressed.
I'm not sure you asked "me" a question to begin with, or that I proclaimed to be answering one to begin with.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: I never stated that cultures have to share related languages for them to be closely related. How did I "ignore" culture?? Language is just one aspect of culture, however it a highly significant aspect. Of course there are many other aspects of culture involved also, but all cultures in the world are related to each other in some way. One must view the relation between cultures logically. Is Yoruba culture as closely related to Egyptian culture as it is Igbo culture? Is Egyptian culture more closely related to Yoruba culture than it is to Beja culture? As far as "race" is concerned, what about it? You should know by now that "race" is a subjective category with no scientifically valid basis. If by 'race' you mean phenotype, what exactly is your point? Of course both peoples are 'black' that's a no-brainer, but are you saying that Egyptians have more in common phenotypically with Yoruba than with other northeast Africans and vice versa with with Yoruba? And as for typological linguistics, well look at Clyde Winters' use of language typology where he attributes Mande roots to Dravidian, Chinese, Ainu (aboriginal Japanese), and Olmec!!
Please read my posts again, my point was that you seem to identify with GREENBERG, who made clear/cut distinctions between typology, culture, "race" (which was a still used concept at his time), and genetic linguistics, yet you still claim that the possibly closest culture to Egyptian is practicized by people speaking related languages.
All of this is as much in contradiction with GREENBERG's principles as claiming that the most closely related language to Egyptian must be spoken by people with similar phenotypes, or that the most closely related language to AE nowadays must be spoken by people practicizing its closest culture.
Just like daughter languages of an ancestral language can be used by people with different phenotypes due to interbreeding or different climatic development, they can be used by people of different cultures due to different social, geographical, political evolutions. In the same vein, a culture can show striking similarities with another just because of parallel evolution by linguistically unrelated people (at least as relevant as those showed in the Black God book you mentioned, and I am deadly serious), contact or diffusion non implying any genetic connection between the language of their speakers. This is even more relevant in the case of Egyptian culture, separated from "Proto-Afrasian" & modern African cultures from several millennias.
quote:Indeed you are correct. Chinese speak languages unrelated to Vietnamese, yet no one denies that both cultures are related despite the Chinese influence in both cultures. But do you not agree that Japanese is closer related to Korean than Vietnamese?
I am not sure I get your point... Do you actually mean that : Japanese culture was influenced by Chinese culture; Korean culture was influenced by Chinese culture; Vietnamese culture was influenced by Chinese culture; Japanese language is "genetically related" (not even sure about it though, except from GREENBERG et al.'s simplistic perspective, and certainly not on the basis of the "cultural vocabulary") to Korean; Vietnamese language is not related to Korean & Japanese;
So Chinese-influenced Japanese culture is closer to Chinese-influenced Korean culture than Chinese-influenced Vietnamese culture(please tell me if I have misinterpreted your point).
If so, as I said, this kind of perspective is kind of simplistic & naive because not taking into account some of the factors I mentioned above.
Perhaps you could tell me what elements of the Korean-Japanese common ancestor language (and prealable to Kofun era, where Koreans brought many cultural traits to non-Ainu Japanese culture) lead you to tell that there is a correlation between it and modern cultural resemblances between Japanese & Korean cultures.
I would also add that your point(?) may very likely be explained by Chinese culture being first introduced in Japan by Koreans, the two latter being more in contact throughout Japanese dynastic history than Vietnamese were with the two latter.
quote:Quite simply that language is highly significant aspect of culture that reflects many beliefs and thought-patterns of that culture. If it were just about words and pronunciations then it would be meaningless, but words have meanings and words' meanings or values are dictated by peoples and their beliefs.
You act like that Egyptians, Berbers, Oromo, Somali, Hausa, Arabs, etc. all speak the same Proto-Afrasian language,while they actually don't, they only use scanty remaining features of this ancestral language. Now, please show me how the remains of Proto Afrasian vocabulary still found in Cushitic, Berber, Chadic, Semitic and Omotic languages allow you to claim that the culture of their speakers is closer to AE culture than that of other non-Afrasian African languages.
Cultural vocabulary, as opposed to basic vocabulary is the one which is assumed to be the less resistant to language evolution, so the mostly common "words" found nowadays in daughter languages of Proto-Afrasian are most likely to be irrelevant in respect of the culture of the Proto-Afrasian speakers, while these elements found at different periods of history, due to immediate diffusion can be closer (cf. Kushite' s Pantheon (Nilo-Saharan) obviously closer to Egyptian's than Axumite's) to Egyptian than those from the old Proto-Afrasian cultural stock are.
quote:It's already been proven by Westerners that the various Indo-European speakers share not only languages in common but many other cultural traits as well including religion.
Scholars have recently found the same to be true with speakers of other language phylums including Afrasian
I've read this book months ago and honestly, the evidence presented seemed pretty unimpressive to me. I even had the impression that the author doesn't consider the material he presented to be an "evidence" of an intrinsically closer "Afrasian cultural complex" than to any "non-Afrasian culture", but rather as an incomplete investigation about the original Proto-AA culture on the basis of the already existing linguistic Afrasian theory. I'll post a detailed analysis of it later, after I pick up the book at a library next week.
Posts: 307 | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote: Oduduwa is the legendary progenitor of the Yoruba. There are two variants of the story of how he achieved this feat. The first is cosmogonic, the second, political. The cosmogonic version also has two variants.
The other variant of the cosmogonic myth does not credit Obatala with the completion of the task. While it concedes that Obatala was given the task, it avers that Obatala got drunk even before he got to the earth and he was unable to do the job. Olodumare got worried when he did not return on time, and he had to send Oduduwa to find out what was going on. When Oduduwa found Obataladrunk, he simply took over the task and completed it. He created land. The spot on which he landed from heaven and which he redeemed from water to become land is called Ile-Ife and is now considered the sacred and spiritual home of the Yoruba. Obatala was embarrased when he woke up and, due to this experience, he made it a taboo for any of his devotees to drink palm wine. Olodumare forgave him and gave him the responsibility of moulding the physical bodies of human beings. The making of land is a symbolic reference to the founding of the Yoruba kingdoms and this is why Oduduwa is credited with that achievement.
For those insisting Yoruba = Egyptian, how is any of the above paralled in AE mythos?
When I asked about the chicken the below was the response, indicating a total lack of knowledge about Yoruba as Yoruba and a convoluted Hamitic spread of civilization/culture/religion.
quote:Originally posted by Wally: For those who would really rather know; research and ignore those who are merely talking off the top of their heads:
1) The Religion of the Yorubas by J. Olumide Lucas ($28.45 from Amazon.com)
The sub-caption beneath the title reads:
quote: Being an account of the religious beliefs and practices of the Yoruba peoples of southern Nigeria. Especially in relation to the religion of ancient Egypt.
2) It was due to this growing awareness (of Yoruba origins) that Fela Kuti, the late, great (as they always say) Yoruba musician changed the name of his band from Africa 70 to Egypt 80. There's plenty on the internet relating to his life and career...
3) Both Diop and Budge have written on the cultural unity of Black Africa. Their books are available today!
Human history is a process; the ancient Egyptians even passed some of their wisdom and knowledge to the Greeks, which began a process of development in Europe; It is parochial, narrowmindness to think of the ancient Egyptians as a 'tribe', nor did they spontaneously begin civilization, independantly and isolated, but was part of a process which had began much earlier in the African interior and the once fertile Sahara. Some people just don't seem to grasp this pattern of human development and it is pointless in wasting one's time...
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote: AlTakruri wrote: (For those insisting Yoruba = Egyptian, how is any of the above paralled in AE mythos?) When I asked about the chicken the below was the response, indicating a total lack of knowledge about Yoruba as Yoruba and a convoluted Hamitic spread of civilization/culture/religion.
quote: Originally posted by Wally: For those who would really rather know; research and ignore those who are merely talking off the top of their heads: 1) The Religion of the Yorubas by J. Olumide Lucas ($28.45 from Amazon.com) The sub-caption beneath the title reads: "Being an account of the religious beliefs and practices of the Yoruba peoples of southern Nigeria. Especially in relation to the religion of ancient Egypt." 2) It was due to this growing awareness (of Yoruba origins) that Fela Kuti, the late, great (as they always say) Yoruba musician changed the name of his band from Africa 70 to Egypt 80. There's plenty on the internet relating to his life and career... 3) Both Diop and Budge have written on the cultural unity of Black Africa. Their books are available today! Human history is a process; the ancient Egyptians even passed some of their wisdom and knowledge to the Greeks, which began a process of development in Europe; It is parochial, narrowmindness to think of the ancient Egyptians as a 'tribe', nor did they spontaneously begin civilization, independently and isolated, but was part of a process which had began much earlier in the African interior and the once fertile Sahara. Some people just don't seem to grasp this pattern of human development and it is pointless in wasting one's time...
From this, Neith-Athena, you can clearly see exactly what I have been telling you, and the importance of using your own intelligence, your own research, as I'm sure most of the members of this forum does;
1) The response to my posting completely ignores the source material referenced, but rather deals with national myths as they are created when it is deemed necessary. It also uses a sleight of hand to detract from the fact that I am quoting a Yoruba scholar on the historical origins of his people; thus the argument is not with me at all!
2) The most troublesome response (and also echoed by some others here) is from those who seem to equate the process of African historical development, stemming from the height of culture attained in the ancient Nile valley as an attempt to trace all African culture to some psychological non-sense as a "Hamitic-Origin". The fact that civilization also flowed northward into both 'Europe' and Asia is ignored; it is the "poor and helpless, and retarded" Africans, who must be outside the normal historical processes, who must be given 'independent' and totally isolated cultures in the rest of Africa. (There is absolutely no evidence of any human culture spontaneously creating a civilization!) It's truly pathetic, actually. Greece, Rome, even Mesopotamia, can all be traced to this evolution of human civilization in the Nile valley, but no!, not the natural components of this civilization on the African continent itself! Poor Africa; we just have to find an isolated, independent African civilization created somewhere in Africa, other than Egypt! ...the washed-brain syndrome...
3) and how did the great King of Ghana choose the name "Tenk.amen.in"? Just made it up I guess...
4) and the Shona who built great Zimbabwe, just discovered all of this wonderful knowledge out of thin air... Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
And I guess Martians rather than the Yoruba are the originators of the Yoruba mythos I posted. And can there be any greater sleight of hand (or slip of mindlessnes) than to introduce Europe, Asia, Greece, Rome, Mesopotamia, Ghana, and Zimbabwe, by way of distraction from the Yoruba because of course there's no denying Wally can't find any neteru with the orisha names * Odudowa * Obatala * Orinsala * Oludamare * Elegba * Oshun * Shango * Eshu * Yemaya * Yansa any spiritual center of their world Egyptian city named * Ile-Ife nor an AE cosmogony involving a * a snail shell * palm kernals * five toed chicken * pieces of metal Instead all we get is a disembling song and tap dance routine full of empty rhetoric of a bankrupt ideology as the best way Wally can admit he has no AE parallels for any of the foregoing.
Or in other words, as intelligence dictates, the Yoruba themselves are responsible for the inception and evolution of their own very fine civilization, which along with themselves and their orisha, have spread to the Americas and commanded the submission of former enslavers and colonialists whose methods failed to erase or dissolve the lasting power and strength of Ifa, one of the foremost of West African peoples' cultural spirituality.
Listen to the Last Poets' Tribute to Obabi (Ogun) or visit a park to hear and feel the pulsating precise rhythms that call down Riders who possess their Horses in divine communion where God and devotee become one and share in revelation and essense in a manner related to yet distinct from Gnawa or Zar or any other.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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From browsing through your previous posts I am aware of what your bigoted agenda is. Do not think that my comments in any way affect my commitment to the truth about the ancient African past, including Kemet. I do not need your acknowledgement that my statements agree with you, because I am sure that we differ in most things.
well said Posts: 3423 | From: the jungle - when y'all stop playing games, call me. | Registered: Jul 2006
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: And I guess Martians rather than the Yoruba are the originators of the Yoruba mythos I posted. And can there be any greater sleight of hand (or slip of mindlessnes) than to introduce Europe, Asia, Greece, Rome, Mesopotamia, Ghana, and Zimbabwe, by way of distraction from the Yoruba because of course there's no denying Wally can't find any neteru with the orisha names * Odudowa * Obatala * Orinsala * Oludamare * Elegba * Oshun * Shango * Eshu * Yemaya * Yansa any spiritual center of their world Egyptian city named * Ile-Ife nor an AE cosmogony involving a * a snail shell * palm kernals * five toed chicken * pieces of metal Instead all we get is a disembling song and tap dance routine full of empty rhetoric of a bankrupt ideology as the best way Wally can admit he has no AE parallels for any of the foregoing.
Or in other words, as intelligence dictates, the Yoruba themselves are responsible for the inception and evolution of their own very fine civilization, which along with themselves and their orisha, have spread to the Americas and commanded the submission of former enslavers and colonialists whose methods failed to erase or dissolve the lasting power and strength of Ifa, one of the foremost of West African peoples' cultural spirituality.
Listen to the Last Poets' Tribute to Obabi (Ogun) or visit a park to hear and feel the pulsating precise rhythms that call down Riders who possess their Horses in divine communion where God and devotee become one and share in revelation and essense in a manner related to yet distinct from Gnawa or Zar or any other.
Thank you, Exactly...I am watching this devil Wally closely and I see that is what he does. He sends out red herrings and moves the goal posts everytime someone checks him on his claims. Clever, but no dice dude.
Posts: 336 | Registered: Apr 2007
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posted
No need to demonize Wally. He's a senior member and long time contributor of very good if highly opinionated material. He teaches us all what we don't know but need to know about Egyptic, be it Pharaonic or Coptic.
We can all disagree without being disagreeable, can we not.
posted
Regarding the link Wally posted: Does Male = Ak and female = Ab in Ancient Egypt? Is this definitely the case?
If that's the case, then that's very very interesting as all you need to do is add 'o' to the end of these words to get the Yoruba equivalents. Pause. Wow.
There are some other very very interesting similarities and it's not a mystery to me as I speak Yoruba very fluently.
There definitely seems to be strong similarities between Yoruba and the Ancient Egytian tongue if Wally's link holds accurate data regarding the Egyptian language. I can comfirm that the Yoruba words and meanings are accurate.
What I'm finding here is that people aren't being very objective. And this refers to both sides of the argument. If anyone is speaking truth, it should be obvious enough, beyond reasonable doubt.
I remain confused.
Posts: 3423 | From: the jungle - when y'all stop playing games, call me. | Registered: Jul 2006
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posted
Wally, I see what you mean and agree with you to a certain extent about Egypt influencing Greek and "Near Eastern" cultures, but not other African cultures. But it also works the other way: tracing civilization in other parts of Africa back to Egypt suggests that other Black Africans cannot come up with their own civilization without the help of Egyptians who over the centuries were mixed with foreign elements from the North. So it works both ways, and one has to be careful because anyone can misconstrue it for the benefit of his or her own agenda.
Posts: 140 | From: USA | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Neith-Athena: Wally, I see what you mean and agree with you to a certain extent about Egypt influencing Greek and "Near Eastern" cultures, but not other African cultures. But it also works the other way: tracing civilization in other parts of Africa back to Egypt suggests that other Black Africans cannot come up with their own civilization without the help of Egyptians who over the centuries were mixed with foreign elements from the North. So it works both ways, and one has to be careful because anyone can misconstrue it for the benefit of his or her own agenda.
Alas, your misfortune, for you still believe that the great Black civilization of Kemet was not Black at all, for if you did, you would not see any contraditiction that a Black civilization would have any influence on other Black civilizations within its own home, Africa; you, unconsciously, believe that Ancient Egypt was white and that... well, I'm wasting my time...
Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Nice Vidadavida *sigh*: Thank you, Exactly(on the incoherent post of AlTakruri)...I am watching this devil Wally closely and I see that is what he does. He sends out red herrings and moves the goal posts everytime someone checks him on his claims. Clever, but no dice dude.
Yes, and I am the 'devil' that's kicking your ass with facts , and not as you, or others who might disagree with my "opinions"; the favorite ruse of those who cannot debate you successfully, because I make it a definite plan to only post factual evidence, of which none can be denied except for pleading this case of 'Opinionated'; thus, here are the facts which establish the fact that the Yoruba are descendants from the ancient industrial, civilized complex of Kemet (did you understand that?): Some facts, and not my opinions (please, excuse the formatting)(for better format see: http://www.geocities.com/wally_mo/egypt_lang.html ...
quote: Egyptian/Yoruba
English Egyptian Yoruba name ran ran seed naprit naprit water miri miri evil bu huru bu buru pot; cup apoti apoti yes; nod head hen hen no enen enen concealed amon amon elevated hor hor silvery fish fahaka fahaka to wipe, erase nu nu --- E: Oni = a form of Osiri(s) Y: Oni = king E: Oba = to direct, captain Y: Oba = king
----- The following text is contributed by Ade from J. Olumide Lucas' book:
(further ) Examples of AE survivals in Yoruba:
Yoruba.......Ancient Egyptian
Inoki............Noki-t "fabulous beast" A-gu-ta(n).......Ha-khu-ptah O-ni.............Au-nu "Crocodile" Saluga...........Salug "god of wealth" ibatan...........Bahtan "compatriot" amon.............amon "to hide/concealed" Wu...............Uu "swell" Miri.............Miri "water" dazzle(of water) Riri.............Ririt "dirty (like a hippo)" Ade..............Ade-f "crown/plumes" Ako..............Ak "male" Abo..............Ab "female" Ala..............Ala "boundary - Obatala==King of Nile" A-ke.............qe-h "axe" a-dua............dua or tua "prayer" a-ru-gbo.........ru-ba "evening of ba i.e. later stage of life" Sadu.............Zaddu "abode of the dead" I-re.............Re "That whis is good, goodness" Ko...............Qo-t "build" Wombia...........nbia "you, a Nubian" - derogatory - "a covetous person"
Note: (O-ni is pronouced with an 'Or' sound) The sacred animal of the city of On (Aunu) survives in the word O-ni, "crocodile", a name used as the title of the paramount King in Yorubaland, i.e., the Oni of Ife.
The Yoruba phrase "apa amu sua", which means "an unthrifty person" is derived from three AE words:
Apa - "he who belongs to the house i.e. servant"
Amu - one of the Asiatic tribes engaged in domestic service in Ancient Egypt
Sua (Sua-nit), a nome in AE. The phrase is a comtemptuous term which preserves the idea of the wastefulness of foreign domestic servants in AE who hardly knew the value of crockery and other articles they sometimes smashed to pieces.
The word "bu" in AE means "place". This word survives in Yoruba vocabulary:
"ki bu e e" means "what place are you going?"
"ibudo" means "a place to settle"
"ibusun" means "a place to sleep"
"ibu-joko" means "a place to sit"
"ibu-so" means "a station"
"a-bu-le" means "premises"
The connection bewteen the two languages is so close that it is quite possible for one to help in determining the siginifcance of words whose meanings have not yet been definitely ascertained or have become obscure in the other!
There is a survival of customs
- Religious beliefs. Most of the prinicpal gods are well known: Osiris, Isis, Horus, Shu, Sut, Thoth, Kepera, Amon, Anu, Khonsu, Khnum, Khopri, Hathor, Sokaris, Ra, Seb, the 4 elmental deities etc.
-- Ra survives in name only, but the words Irawo (star), rara (swear by Ra), rara (dwarfs - AE mythological Danga dwarfs that hailed the daily arrival of the sun-god) preserve the idea.
-- The idea of a future life and that of judgement after death -- The deification of Kings. -- The importance attached to names. A man's name is supposed to have a real force in determining his character. Names are not given haphazardly, but acording to prevailing circumstances at the time of birth. -- Strong belief in a future life. The AE and Yoruba ideas are identical. The Yoruba word for the verb "too die" is Ku, i.e. to become a luminous spirit. The Egyptian word Khu, or the luminous part of a man, "is a spark of that divine intelligence which pervades the world and to which it must return"
- Polygamy - similarity in the position of the first wife and her rights and privileges
- Burial customs. Previous to burial the corpse in Yorubaland is dressed like the Egyptian mummy. In the case of the burial of the king, the king slaves must be buried with him, and his Chief Officers and wives must die on the day of the burial. The king will require the services of his dependents in the next world. The British influence has put an end to such practices. Ushebti figures are now substitued for living persons. -----
Now, if a Yoruba speaker on this forum can and has confirmed the accuracy of the Yoruba words, is there anyone here (besides me-self) that can also confirm the accuracy of the Mdu Ntr? And, none of this is my opinion, it's "Just the facts, mam." Dum-Da-Dum-Dumb-Duumb... Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
Please point out what's incoherent to you and I will dumb it down to a level more suitable to your lack of intelligence.
I don't mind disagreement. It's a natural part of scholarly exchange. But any sly innuendos about my person will get outright vitriol in return. I'm a man I won't pussy foot you.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Nice Vidadavida *sigh*: Thank you, Exactly(on the incoherent post of AlTakruri)...I am watching this devil Wally closely and I see that is what he does. He sends out red herrings and moves the goal posts everytime someone checks him on his claims. Clever, but no dice dude.
Yes, and I am the 'devil' that's kicking your ass with facts , and not as you, or others who might disagree with my "opinions"; the favorite ruse of those who cannot debate you successfully, because I make it a definite plan to only post factual evidence, of which none can be denied except for pleading this case of 'Opinionated'; thus, here are the facts which establish the fact that the Yoruba are descendants from the ancient industrial, civilized complex of Kemet (did you understand that?): Some facts, and not my opinions (please, excuse the formatting)(for better format see: http://www.geocities.com/wally_mo/egypt_lang.html ...
quote: Egyptian/Yoruba
English Egyptian Yoruba name ran ran seed naprit naprit water miri miri evil bu huru bu buru pot; cup apoti apoti yes; nod head hen hen no enen enen concealed amon amon elevated hor hor silvery fish fahaka fahaka to wipe, erase nu nu --- E: Oni = a form of Osiri(s) Y: Oni = king E: Oba = to direct, captain Y: Oba = king
----- The following text is contributed by Ade from J. Olumide Lucas' book:
(further ) Examples of AE survivals in Yoruba:
Yoruba.......Ancient Egyptian
Inoki............Noki-t "fabulous beast" A-gu-ta(n).......Ha-khu-ptah O-ni.............Au-nu "Crocodile" Saluga...........Salug "god of wealth" ibatan...........Bahtan "compatriot" amon.............amon "to hide/concealed" Wu...............Uu "swell" Miri.............Miri "water" dazzle(of water) Riri.............Ririt "dirty (like a hippo)" Ade..............Ade-f "crown/plumes" Ako..............Ak "male" Abo..............Ab "female" Ala..............Ala "boundary - Obatala==King of Nile" A-ke.............qe-h "axe" a-dua............dua or tua "prayer" a-ru-gbo.........ru-ba "evening of ba i.e. later stage of life" Sadu.............Zaddu "abode of the dead" I-re.............Re "That whis is good, goodness" Ko...............Qo-t "build" Wombia...........nbia "you, a Nubian" - derogatory - "a covetous person"
Note: (O-ni is pronouced with an 'Or' sound) The sacred animal of the city of On (Aunu) survives in the word O-ni, "crocodile", a name used as the title of the paramount King in Yorubaland, i.e., the Oni of Ife.
The Yoruba phrase "apa amu sua", which means "an unthrifty person" is derived from three AE words:
Apa - "he who belongs to the house i.e. servant"
Amu - one of the Asiatic tribes engaged in domestic service in Ancient Egypt
Sua (Sua-nit), a nome in AE. The phrase is a comtemptuous term which preserves the idea of the wastefulness of foreign domestic servants in AE who hardly knew the value of crockery and other articles they sometimes smashed to pieces.
The word "bu" in AE means "place". This word survives in Yoruba vocabulary:
"ki bu e e" means "what place are you going?"
"ibudo" means "a place to settle"
"ibusun" means "a place to sleep"
"ibu-joko" means "a place to sit"
"ibu-so" means "a station"
"a-bu-le" means "premises"
The connection bewteen the two languages is so close that it is quite possible for one to help in determining the siginifcance of words whose meanings have not yet been definitely ascertained or have become obscure in the other!
There is a survival of customs
- Religious beliefs. Most of the prinicpal gods are well known: Osiris, Isis, Horus, Shu, Sut, Thoth, Kepera, Amon, Anu, Khonsu, Khnum, Khopri, Hathor, Sokaris, Ra, Seb, the 4 elmental deities etc.
-- Ra survives in name only, but the words Irawo (star), rara (swear by Ra), rara (dwarfs - AE mythological Danga dwarfs that hailed the daily arrival of the sun-god) preserve the idea.
-- The idea of a future life and that of judgement after death -- The deification of Kings. -- The importance attached to names. A man's name is supposed to have a real force in determining his character. Names are not given haphazardly, but acording to prevailing circumstances at the time of birth. -- Strong belief in a future life. The AE and Yoruba ideas are identical. The Yoruba word for the verb "too die" is Ku, i.e. to become a luminous spirit. The Egyptian word Khu, or the luminous part of a man, "is a spark of that divine intelligence which pervades the world and to which it must return"
- Polygamy - similarity in the position of the first wife and her rights and privileges
- Burial customs. Previous to burial the corpse in Yorubaland is dressed like the Egyptian mummy. In the case of the burial of the king, the king slaves must be buried with him, and his Chief Officers and wives must die on the day of the burial. The king will require the services of his dependents in the next world. The British influence has put an end to such practices. Ushebti figures are now substitued for living persons. -----
Now, if a Yoruba speaker on this forum can and has confirmed the accuracy of the Yoruba words, is there anyone here (besides me-self) that can also confirm the accuracy of the Mdu Ntr? And, none of this is my opinion, it's "Just the facts, mam." Dum-Da-Dum-Dumb-Duumb...
LOL!!!!!!!!! Man you are the inner-African Clyde Winters now. Oh man
Posts: 336 | Registered: Apr 2007
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No, I do not believe the ancient Egyptians were white at all. I know they were Black Africans. But you cannot deny that over the centuries they (unfortunately in my opinion) were colonized by and mixed with foreign peoples. Yes, it was an indigenous all-Black African development, and in my opinion the Hyksos and subsequent invaders contributed little of true value to their civilization.
Posts: 140 | From: USA | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:Originally posted by rasol: But you can *use* one word to suggest or deny any relationship you want in between any langauges you choose.
That's why this 'selective word comparison' method - which has such great 'intuitive' appeal to the laymen, is not scientifically valid.
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Rather than genetic families, Dalby proposes region wide affinity of speech overlaid by fragmentation of unaffiliated speakers.
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Bottom line is this...All Wally has to do is take a DNA test. To prove not to US but to himself that he is only giving himself a delusion about being from Egypt. ITS THAT SIMPLE!!! Will he do this NOOOOOO, because that would stop his big dream which is why he defames genetics as a study for convenience YET he says Egyptians are black which genetics have put in stone.
The true question is....back when Wally believed Egyptians were Arabs would he be pushing this "Egyptians civilized Africa" bit?!?! hmmmmmmmm
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quote:Originally posted by Nice Vidadavida *sigh*: Bottom line is this...All Wally has to do is take a DNA test. To prove not to US but to himself that he is only giving himself a delusion about being from Egypt. ITS THAT SIMPLE!!! Will he do this NOOOOOO, because that would stop his big dream which is why he defames genetics as a study for convenience YET he says Egyptians are black which genetics have put in stone.
The true question is....back when Wally believed Egyptians were Arabs would he be pushing this "Egyptians civilized Africa" bit?!?! hmmmmmmmm
You are, as evidenced by your postings, without a doubt, a European (White) racist. Nothing of which you have posted here is either coherent or factual:
a) Fool, my ancestry is African and not exclusive to either West Africa or the ancient Nile valley...
b) Fool, what is this big dream? That my ancestry is African? You are, again, incoherently racist as well as immature...
c) Fool, at what point in any of my postings here have I EVER given the impression that I thought at any time that the ancient Egyptians were Arabs; what are you smoking? -at least this would give an excuse for your retarded remarks...
d) and finally, fool, a DNA test would not begin to tell me the location and identities of all of my ancestors, but I'm sure your mind cannot grasp this fact...
Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
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^LOL Wally, let's calm things down without getting into any ad-hominem remarks (though I understand your annoyance with Vida).
Let it be clear that NRY West African lineage E3a does ultimately come from the Nile Valley but at the same time it diverged from E3b. Still, I don't know what this has to do with historical Nile Valley or even Egypt.
quote:Originally posted by Please call me MIDOGBE: Please read my posts again, my point was that you seem to identify with GREENBERG, who made clear/cut distinctions between typology, culture, "race" (which was a still used concept at his time), and genetic linguistics, yet you still claim that the possibly closest culture to Egyptian is practicized by people speaking related languages.
All of this is as much in contradiction with GREENBERG's principles as claiming that the most closely related language to Egyptian must be spoken by people with similar phenotypes, or that the most closely related language to AE nowadays must be spoken by people practicizing its closest culture.
I am sorry you misunderstood me, but I never meant to say that language only defined relativity between cultures. One thing I forgot to mention was how despite linguistic differences, Afrasian speaking Egyptians and Nilo-Saharan speaking Nubians were still closely related. This natural considering that both populations are native to the Nile Valley, in this respect I would say Egyptians are much culturally closer in certain ways to Nubian speakers than to Afrasian speaking Hausa and definitely moreso than Niger-Congo speaking Yoruba.
My point was that you cannot say the Egyptians were very closely related to another group of peoples thousands of miles away, moreso than folks within their vicinity.
quote:Just like daughter languages of an ancestral language can be used by people with different phenotypes due to interbreeding or different climatic development, they can be used by people of different cultures due to different social, geographical, political evolutions. In the same vein, a culture can show striking similarities with another just because of parallel evolution by linguistically unrelated people (at least as relevant as those showed in the Black God book you mentioned, and I am deadly serious), contact or diffusion non implying any genetic connection between the language of their speakers. This is even more relevant in the case of Egyptian culture, separated from "Proto-Afrasian" & modern African cultures from several millennias.
Of course! I never meant to associate phenotype with language, as can be seen by Afrasian speakers in the nation of Ethiopia alone. As anyone can see the difference in general appearance between a Habesha, Somali, and a Hamar.
quote:I am not sure I get your point... Do you actually mean that : Japanese culture was influenced by Chinese culture; Korean culture was influenced by Chinese culture; Vietnamese culture was influenced by Chinese culture; Japanese language is "genetically related" (not even sure about it though, except from GREENBERG et al.'s simplistic perspective, and certainly not on the basis of the "cultural vocabulary") to Korean; Vietnamese language is not related to Korean & Japanese;
So Chinese-influenced Japanese culture is closer to Chinese-influenced Korean culture than Chinese-influenced Vietnamese culture(please tell me if I have misinterpreted your point).
If so, as I said, this kind of perspective is kind of simplistic & naive because not taking into account some of the factors I mentioned above.
Perhaps you could tell me what elements of the Korean-Japanese common ancestor language (and prealable to Kofun era, where Koreans brought many cultural traits to non-Ainu Japanese culture) lead you to tell that there is a correlation between it and modern cultural resemblances between Japanese & Korean cultures.
I would also add that your point(?) may very likely be explained by Chinese culture being first introduced in Japan by Koreans, the two latter being more in contact throughout Japanese dynastic history than Vietnamese were with the two latter.
I was referring to the languages of the native people, discounting Chinese influence. And the Chinese influence was present in all those Asian cultures, especially in the case of Vietnam whom they colonised.
The relation between Japanese and Korean is still in debate. Typologically as well as in many other traits they share a striking similarity. The major difference between them is vocabulary is different save a few terms. The theory is that before direct Korean influence into Japan, there existed speakers of Japanese languages on teh Korean peninsula who were later subsumed by Korean speakers.Vietnamese is classified as Austroasiatic but has heavy Chinese influence due to clonisation.
My point is there are similarities between all of these cultures both in language as well as other things but it would be wrong to say that people in Korea are closer related to vietnamese than their immediate neighbors like Japanese.
I hate to get into Asian languages and cultures at the moment which I only brought up as an example.
quote:You act like that Egyptians, Berbers, Oromo, Somali, Hausa, Arabs, etc. all speak the same Proto-Afrasian language,while they actually don't, they only use scanty remaining features of this ancestral language. Now, please show me how the remains of Proto Afrasian vocabulary still found in Cushitic, Berber, Chadic, Semitic and Omotic languages allow you to claim that the culture of their speakers is closer to AE culture than that of other non-Afrasian African languages.
Again, I do not imply what you claim that I do above. Language is just one aspect of relation between cultures, but an important one that reveals other cultural traits. I did not say that this is the most important feature of culture overall. OR that speakers of a language are not closely related to others. Hausa speakers are going to have more affinity culturally to the Fulani whom they live with than with Somali.
quote:Cultural vocabulary, as opposed to basic vocabulary is the one which is assumed to be the less resistant to language evolution, so the mostly common "words" found nowadays in daughter languages of Proto-Afrasian are most likely to be irrelevant in respect of the culture of the Proto-Afrasian speakers, while these elements found at different periods of history, due to immediate diffusion can be closer (cf. Kushite' s Pantheon (Nilo-Saharan) obviously closer to Egyptian's than Axumite's) to Egyptian than those from the old Proto-Afrasian cultural stock are.
Agreed. And the Yoruba pantheon is much closer to Mandingo than to Egyptian or Shilluk.
quote:I've read this book months ago and honestly, the evidence presented seemed pretty unimpressive to me. I even had the impression that the author doesn't consider the material he presented to be an "evidence" of an intrinsically closer "Afrasian cultural complex" than to any "non-Afrasian culture", but rather as an incomplete investigation about the original Proto-AA culture on the basis of the already existing linguistic Afrasian theory. I'll post a detailed analysis of it later, after I pick up the book at a library next week.
I haven't read the book at all yet, but I am not surprised by his findings as he only a scholar in comparative religion and not linguistics. The problem is we know alot about proto-Indo-European culture which still had vestiges in the various cultures of its offspring languages (and still does in the case of Hindus in India). Yet we have yet to learn about the cultural commonalities between speakers of other language phyla including Afroasiatic. I have asked Christopher Ehret about this and he too is doing research on the subject. I wish the same could be done with other language phylums including those in Asia.
Posts: 26280 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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^Wow. How did we get from the topic of this thread which is about the Egyptian concept of Neter and their idea of gods, into the relations between whole languages and cultures??
Posts: 26280 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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This natural considering that both populations are native to the Nile Valley, in this respect I would say Egyptians are much culturally closer in certain ways to Nubian speakers than to Afrasian speaking Hausa and definitely moreso than Niger-Congo speaking Yoruba.
They were culturally closer to their "Nubian" neighbours more so than people from anywhere further away from the Nile Valley, including the Afrasan speakers in the African Horn.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Wally: [qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Nice Vidadavida *sigh*: [qb] Bottom line is this...All Wally has to do is take a DNA test. To prove not to US but to himself that he is only giving himself a delusion about being from Egypt. ITS THAT SIMPLE!!! Will he do this NOOOOOO, because that would stop his big dream which is why he defames genetics as a study for convenience YET he says Egyptians are black which genetics have put in stone.
The true question is....back when Wally believed Egyptians were Arabs would he be pushing this "Egyptians civilized Africa" bit?!?! hmmmmmmmm
[QUOTE]You are, as evidenced by your postings, without a doubt, a European (White) racist. Nothing of which you have posted here is either coherent or factual
Nice try Wally, but no cigar I am as black as they come. The problem is this...even if I was a white racist European...what the hell does that have to do with you making up stuff and lying?!?! This is just another one of your deflecting non-sequitors...cute...but not that cute.
quote:a) Fool, my ancestry is African and not exclusive to either West Africa or the ancient Nile valley...
Wrong..African Americans come from specific groups of people that are not as vast as most people think(which is the sad part that African Americans would even have the desire to believe the WHOLE FRICKIN' CONTINENT WAS IN CHAINS GRRRRR ). Mostly from west and central Africa, a little from south African and a smidgen from East Africa. Not to mention..PEOPLE are ancestors Wally..not Continents *clearing throat*...I mean what the hell is an "African" anyway?!?!
quote:b) Fool, what is this big dream? That my ancestry is African? You are, again, incoherently racist as well as immature...
Another inconsequential statement by Wally..man did you even finish school? The big dream is you being from the Nile Valley which you aren't from!!
quote:c) Fool, at what point in any of my postings here have I EVER given the impression that I thought at any time that the ancient Egyptians were Arabs; what are you smoking? -at least this would give an excuse for your retarded remarks...
You know damn well everyone thought the ancient Egyptians were the same people in ancient times as they are today in the past 100 + years of Egyptology, the media, Biblical movies, and re-inactments of Egyptian history and iconography in the past. I am sure you will lie and say you never believed this, but fine, I have explained what I meant by the post.
quote:d) and finally, fool, a DNA test would not begin to tell me the location and identities of all of my ancestors, but I'm sure your mind cannot grasp this fact...
Please prove that..waiting...and if this is the case how the hell are you saying you are from somewhere specifically in Africa lol. This is the most ridiculous post I have ever seen you write Wally. It is almost like you are proving my point for me and I don't even need to argue. Very strange indeed hmmmmmmmmm.
Why is it that everytime you check or disagree with these Afrocentric/Africana/Negrocentric/Psuedo negro dreamers they always call you "white" as if "white" would be an insult? Why would being white be an insult considering you give it SOOO much power to begin with lmao!!!!!!! Sad Posts: 336 | Registered: Apr 2007
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OK, Djehuti... This isn't an ad hominem response to the recent post by this guy 'vida'; there's no need to attack this individually personally, his responses speak for themselves.
So please, if you can, explain to me anything that he says makes any coherent sense at all, to you or to anyone else. It sounds to me as foolish gibberish, which is why I refer to him as 'fool.'
You see, one of my favorite talk show hosts in the Bay Area is Ray Taliaferro, who doesn't hesitate to call someone an idiot or fool when they make idiotic or foolish statements. I am aware that I'm not a celebrity talk show host and also that the internet cannot usually convey the subtleties of language.
This whole topic is not about my ancestry or anyone else's, it's about the Kememou's concept of "Ntru" and from which I submitted that a reference to other African religions, especially those most closely related to the religion of Kemet would provide the answer...
Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Mystery Solver: They were culturally closer to their "Nubian" neighbours more so than people from anywhere further away from the Nile Valley, including the Afrasan speakers in the African Horn.
That is exactly what I whave been saying. Culturally Egyptians are closer to fellow Niley Valley natives like the Nubians than to anyone all the way in modern country of Nigeria. But if anything, I'd say Hausa since they do speak Afrasian languages are culturally closer to Egyptians than Yoruba.
Posts: 26280 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Neith-Athena: I just started reading a book by Moustafa Gadalla where he claims that "neter" does not mean "god," but rather different attributes or aspects of the One God. I have read this before, and wonder whether translating the word as "god" is meant to suggest that Judaism is the first monotheistic religion.
In the Yoruba religion, "orisha" is often translated as "god" but I heard from someone more knowledgeable than I about it that the orishas are different elemental forces or aspects of nature and hence of the One God. I am not suggesting hyper-diffusionism, just simply that monotheism is not such a unique concept as Europeans would have one think. Also, I am more familiar with Yoruba religion as it is practiced in the Diaspora. I also read Chinua Achebe's "Things Fall Apart" recently and towards the end when one of the Igbo characters is speaking to the European missionary, he says that the Igbo also believe in the One God, but they pray to different aspects of Him/Her. It is really similar to how Catholics pray to different saints.
You have, in your opening topic 'question', actually raised and pointed out some significant information. You are truly an intelligent individual. So, please ignore the trifling 'answers' proffered here. A study of African religions (and to hell with the "linguistic" balkanization nonsense!) will provide the answers (to what I suspect you already pretty much know) to your question.
Nteru = "Saints" or "holy ancestors" in the Mdu Ntr... also, a good book to read is Conversations with Ogotemmeli: An Introduction to Dogon Religious Ideas by Marcel Griaule ...another, more direct source, would be to study the theological concepts of the Sahidi peoples of modern day Upper Egypt...(ie, ask Ausar!) Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
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^ Although "saints" is a poor European analogy or translation. I believe 'divinity' would be more accurate, since these were divine beings.
Posts: 26280 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Although "saints" is a poor European analogy or translation. I believe 'divinity' would be more accurate, since these were divine beings.
They were culturally closer to their "Nubian" neighbours more so than people from anywhere further away from the Nile Valley, including the Afrasan speakers in the African Horn.
That is exactly what I whave been saying. Culturally Egyptians are closer to fellow Niley Valley natives like the Nubians than to anyone all the way in modern country of Nigeria. But if anything, I'd say Hausa since they do speak Afrasian languages are culturally closer to Egyptians than Yoruba.
The interesting thing about this, i.e. about AE having been culturally closest to their Southern neighbours - all the way from upper Ta-Seti region to Kush, is that it seems that these groups didn't speak languages placed into the same sub-branches. There are indicators that these groups spoke languages at the least belonging to Afrasan and Nilo-Saharan/Nilotic sub-branches. The point: caution is needed when assessing cultural affinities [which need not, nor will necessarily fit into discrete non-overlapping linguistic macrofamily cultural units, or to suggest that only groups from the same macro-linguistic family can be culturally closest to one another relative to those who don't belong to the same super-group], and should take into account bio-historic interactions between populations and the issue of proximity.
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^ Agreed. Cultural affinity is identified by all aspects of culture, not just languages. I never said the contrary. My point as to dismiss the idea that Yoruba are somehow extremely culturally close to Egyptians as being a 'sister' just because of some similarities.
Well you have to forgive me, but being raised Catholic, I've taken the traditional definition of saint to mean a person who has done incredible acts of good and benevolence that they are worthy of honor and veneration but not necessarily worship as they are not divine.
Posts: 26280 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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It is comparatively easy to distinguish between the Indo-European and Afroasiatic legacies. But it is extremely difficult to distinguish between what is Afroasiatic and what is inner African. In Africa one has to note the Nilo-Saharan language family, with speakers scattered from Mali to Ethiopia, and most extensively, the language family of Niger-Congo speakers, who are spread over the West and the South of the continent. Trying to isolate the cultural characteristics which separate speakers of these language-families from Afroasiatic speakers is an enormous and perhaps impossible task, bedevilled by the influence on previous researchers of discredited racial theories, which, in imaginary reconstructions, have opposed "white" Afroasiatic conquerors to "negro" underdogs. Here I shall just briefly mention similarities between Afroasiatic and three inner African religions which have been objects of important studies.
[After reviewing some similarities between the "Afroasiatic Religious Heritage" and aspects of three Inner African religions "which have been objects of important studies", namely the Dogon (Mali), the Nuer (Sudan) and the Fang of Gabon he goes on to say:]
The same may be true of much of the rest of Africa. As Daum has pointed out, the myth of the luminous hero who kills a water-demon and thereby wins a bride is found all over Africa. So too is circumcision, seen as an initiation-rite preceeding marriage. The sacrificing of a black bull to obtain rain is also widespread . Throughout Africa water is ardently desired, and thus black and blue are the favourite colors. It would take much more study to isolate specifically Afroasiatic elements in the religions of Nilo-Saharan or Niger-Congo-Speakers. Thus it seems best, for the moment, to conclude that although the religions of Afroasiatic-speakers possess a strong degree of unity they still cannot be differentiated from the religions of speakers of other African language-families.
Interestingly, the myth of Horus & Seth is about two related men, the first (Osiris) being Black, nice, bringing civilization, sober, associated with fertility, agriculture and civilization ,appreciated while the other (Seth) being Red, wild mannered, alcoholic, cruel, disliked and associated with sterility and ambiguous sexuality. The Red one, jealous of the Black one will try to kill him as well as his son (Horus), yet will eventually be defeated by Horus, who will later seize the crown of Egypt, the Dynastic ruler of Egypt being the heir of the two latter gods.
The Egyptian features mentioned above differs in several respects from other mentioned AA mythologies (The victorious hero gets the throne of the country/ "red villain" vs "black hero" and not the other way around/ the villain is killed by the son of the hero, who becames the patron ancestor of the local King, etc.) yet are identical to those found in royal mythology of the BaLuba of Central Africa , whose protagonists are Nkongolo, his brother-in-law Mbidi Kiluwe, and Mbidi's son Kalala Ilunga as pointed out by French West-Indian Egyptologist Alain ANSELIN, on the basis of the work of Belgian Africanist Luc de HEUSCH.
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^ Very interesting analysis. Baldick raises an interesting point about the overlap of different African traditions despite difference in linguistic backgrounds. Obviously this is due to the common origins of all African peoples which is further compounded by recent influences between the divergent groups. I really want that Baldick book!
Posts: 26280 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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While I concur with the fact that BALDICK's book deals with an interesting frame of research, I definitely don't rate the method & results of the book in a high way at all.
BALDICK does seem to underestimate the capacity of distant human people to produce "similar" cultures due to the universal features of human culture and to not be able to distinguish "similar" and "related culture", the latter only being relevant for the purpose of his book.
IMO, his work is just some similar features put under the of the Afroasiatic hypothesis which is considered here as a dogma.
What he did could be basically done by setting up a putative family including Japanese language in the Afroasiatic family and then finding common features to the cultures of those speakers similar to those provided in his book such as:
Violent Japanese storm deity Susano'o, jealous of her sister Sun deity Amaterasu (associated with the introduction of agriculture) attempts to kill her but gets defeated and deposed, but still ends by accomplishing a noble task i.e. killing a monstruous snake at Izumo (cf. Jealous Seth attempting to kill Osiris but fails at getting the throne and ends by fighting the monstruous snake Apophis) ; The ruler of Japan is the incarnation of Amaterasu's son (cf. the Pharaoh being the incarnation of Osiris' son Horus); both symbols of Amaterasu & Susano'o are considered as part of the Imperial regalia (like the two crowns and other symbols of L-E and U-E are symbols of the full authority of Pharaoh); Susano'o is associated with the horse and according to the Japanese Nihongi book, horses and cattle were once sacrificed by priests to get rain in a period of drought (like the Afro-Asiatic Ibex/bull/donkey associated with the storm god according to BALDICK ), etc.
What is even more criticable to me is that BALDICK even tries to corroborate linguistic theories of Afrasian internal divergence with his similar but not necessarily related religious features.
A deeper look at literature dealing with other African religious features would have made his work much better IMO, but maybe I'm a bit harsh at him there, since his book is just intended to be a pioneer work, not an exhaustive one.
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^ Well I haven't read the book yet, but I do not doubt the shortcomings of the book that you make aware.
Again, I am just really interested in the shared legacy or commonality Afrasian speakers have other than language. Westerners have shown such a thing with no problem when it comes to Indo-European. I want to know if this is the case with other language families such as with Afrasian which is the 2nd largest language phylum in number of speakers next to Indo-European.
Posts: 26280 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Please call me MIDOGBE: Of course each neter was probably considered as one part or aspect of a same concept since unlike common other things, they were associated with the "divine" in AEgyptian writings but I believe that some texts mentioning different deities in a same place with human-like attitudes (cf. judgement of Seth & Heru) makes it clear that they were considered by some as being different "beings".
However I honestly don't think that one can label 4000+ years of ancient religious history of a civilization resulting from the merger of several different cultures, and with different dynastic approaches of religion (peasant's religion vs commoner's religion vs Noble's religion, etc.) with a narrow designation such as Henotheistic, Monotheistic, Polytheistic, etc...
Maybe it would be more relevant to question the nature of the religion of Egyptian state/Upper class over the ages because it would be the easiest to explain from direct remaining evidence.
quote:Originally posted by Please call me MIDOGBE:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: I never stated that cultures have to share related languages for them to be closely related. How did I "ignore" culture?? Language is just one aspect of culture, however it a highly significant aspect. Of course there are many other aspects of culture involved also, but all cultures in the world are related to each other in some way. One must view the relation between cultures logically. Is Yoruba culture as closely related to Egyptian culture as it is Igbo culture? Is Egyptian culture more closely related to Yoruba culture than it is to Beja culture? As far as "race" is concerned, what about it? You should know by now that "race" is a subjective category with no scientifically valid basis. If by 'race' you mean phenotype, what exactly is your point? Of course both peoples are 'black' that's a no-brainer, but are you saying that Egyptians have more in common phenotypically with Yoruba than with other northeast Africans and vice versa with with Yoruba? And as for typological linguistics, well look at Clyde Winters' use of language typology where he attributes Mande roots to Dravidian, Chinese, Ainu (aboriginal Japanese), and Olmec!!
Please read my posts again, my point was that you seem to identify with GREENBERG, who made clear/cut distinctions between typology, culture, "race" (which was a still used concept at his time), and genetic linguistics, yet you still claim that the possibly closest culture to Egyptian is practicized by people speaking related languages.
All of this is as much in contradiction with GREENBERG's principles as claiming that the most closely related language to Egyptian must be spoken by people with similar phenotypes, or that the most closely related language to AE nowadays must be spoken by people practicizing its closest culture.
Just like daughter languages of an ancestral language can be used by people with different phenotypes due to interbreeding or different climatic development, they can be used by people of different cultures due to different social, geographical, political evolutions. In the same vein, a culture can show striking similarities with another just because of parallel evolution by linguistically unrelated people (at least as relevant as those showed in the Black God book you mentioned, and I am deadly serious), contact or diffusion non implying any genetic connection between the language of their speakers. This is even more relevant in the case of Egyptian culture, separated from "Proto-Afrasian" & modern African cultures from several millennias.
quote:Indeed you are correct. Chinese speak languages unrelated to Vietnamese, yet no one denies that both cultures are related despite the Chinese influence in both cultures. But do you not agree that Japanese is closer related to Korean than Vietnamese?
I am not sure I get your point... Do you actually mean that : Japanese culture was influenced by Chinese culture; Korean culture was influenced by Chinese culture; Vietnamese culture was influenced by Chinese culture; Japanese language is "genetically related" (not even sure about it though, except from GREENBERG et al.'s simplistic perspective, and certainly not on the basis of the "cultural vocabulary") to Korean; Vietnamese language is not related to Korean & Japanese;
So Chinese-influenced Japanese culture is closer to Chinese-influenced Korean culture than Chinese-influenced Vietnamese culture(please tell me if I have misinterpreted your point).
If so, as I said, this kind of perspective is kind of simplistic & naive because not taking into account some of the factors I mentioned above.
Perhaps you could tell me what elements of the Korean-Japanese common ancestor language (and prealable to Kofun era, where Koreans brought many cultural traits to non-Ainu Japanese culture) lead you to tell that there is a correlation between it and modern cultural resemblances between Japanese & Korean cultures.
I would also add that your point(?) may very likely be explained by Chinese culture being first introduced in Japan by Koreans, the two latter being more in contact throughout Japanese dynastic history than Vietnamese were with the two latter.
quote:Quite simply that language is highly significant aspect of culture that reflects many beliefs and thought-patterns of that culture. If it were just about words and pronunciations then it would be meaningless, but words have meanings and words' meanings or values are dictated by peoples and their beliefs.
You act like that Egyptians, Berbers, Oromo, Somali, Hausa, Arabs, etc. all speak the same Proto-Afrasian language,while they actually don't, they only use scanty remaining features of this ancestral language. Now, please show me how the remains of Proto Afrasian vocabulary still found in Cushitic, Berber, Chadic, Semitic and Omotic languages allow you to claim that the culture of their speakers is closer to AE culture than that of other non-Afrasian African languages.
Cultural vocabulary, as opposed to basic vocabulary is the one which is assumed to be the less resistant to language evolution, so the mostly common "words" found nowadays in daughter languages of Proto-Afrasian are most likely to be irrelevant in respect of the culture of the Proto-Afrasian speakers, while these elements found at different periods of history, due to immediate diffusion can be closer (cf. Kushite' s Pantheon (Nilo-Saharan) obviously closer to Egyptian's than Axumite's) to Egyptian than those from the old Proto-Afrasian cultural stock are.
quote:It's already been proven by Westerners that the various Indo-European speakers share not only languages in common but many other cultural traits as well including religion.
Scholars have recently found the same to be true with speakers of other language phylums including Afrasian
I've read this book months ago and honestly, the evidence presented seemed pretty unimpressive to me. I even had the impression that the author doesn't consider the material he presented to be an "evidence" of an intrinsically closer "Afrasian cultural complex" than to any "non-Afrasian culture", but rather as an incomplete investigation about the original Proto-AA culture on the basis of the already existing linguistic Afrasian theory. I'll post a detailed analysis of it later, after I pick up the book at a library next week.
quote:Originally posted by Please call me MIDOGBE: While I concur with the fact that BALDICK's book deals with an interesting frame of research, I definitely don't rate the method & results of the book in a high way at all.
BALDICK does seem to underestimate the capacity of distant human people to produce "similar" cultures due to the universal features of human culture and to not be able to distinguish "similar" and "related culture", the latter only being relevant for the purpose of his book.
IMO, his work is just some similar features put under the of the Afroasiatic hypothesis which is considered here as a dogma.
What he did could be basically done by setting up a putative family including Japanese language in the Afroasiatic family and then finding common features to the cultures of those speakers similar to those provided in his book such as:
Violent Japanese storm deity Susano'o, jealous of her sister Sun deity Amaterasu (associated with the introduction of agriculture) attempts to kill her but gets defeated and deposed, but still ends by accomplishing a noble task i.e. killing a monstruous snake at Izumo (cf. Jealous Seth attempting to kill Osiris but fails at getting the throne and ends by fighting the monstruous snake Apophis) ; The ruler of Japan is the incarnation of Amaterasu's son (cf. the Pharaoh being the incarnation of Osiris' son Horus); both symbols of Amaterasu & Susano'o are considered as part of the Imperial regalia (like the two crowns and other symbols of L-E and U-E are symbols of the full authority of Pharaoh); Susano'o is associated with the horse and according to the Japanese Nihongi book, horses and cattle were once sacrificed by priests to get rain in a period of drought (like the Afro-Asiatic Ibex/bull/donkey associated with the storm god according to BALDICK ), etc.
What is even more criticable to me is that BALDICK even tries to corroborate linguistic theories of Afrasian internal divergence with his similar but not necessarily related religious features.
A deeper look at literature dealing with other African religious features would have made his work much better IMO, but maybe I'm a bit harsh at him there, since his book is just intended to be a pioneer work, not an exhaustive one.
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
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, and not as you, or others who might disagree with my "opinions"; the favorite ruse of those who cannot debate you successfully, because I make it a definite plan to only post factual evidence, of which none can be denied except for pleading this case of 'Opinionated'; thus, here are the facts which establish the fact that the Yoruba are descendants from the ancient industrial, civilized complex of Kemet (did you understand that?):
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). Mostly from west and central Africa, a little from south African and a smidgen from East Africa. Not to mention..PEOPLE are ancestors Wally..not Continents *clearing throat*...I mean what the hell is an "African" anyway?!?! ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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