You are having quite a day--with your 2 perplexing posts. One to Winters and now this. Please, just stay away from those Tuskers. Kind regards.
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Well your answer just tells that you have no clue about my question, so stay away from this post since based on your intellectual background you probably won't be able to answer it...
Posts: 919 | From: AFRICA | Registered: Apr 2007
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It's all in jest. Just relax and laugh.But seriously now, you are right I have little information on "the genetics of Chadic speakers" and even though I am now writing from Africa and am not legally blind I am yet to see a "pure black African". Cheers!
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By 'genetics' do you mean linguistically or physically the people themselves? By the latter, of course Chadic speaking people are overwhelmingly if not entirely African, by the former their languages of the Chadic branch are a part of the Afrasian phylum.
Although why Clyde Winters denies the existence of such a phylum is beyond me.
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Djehuti, It's clear that they are African, but in which African group do they belong genetically?
Posts: 919 | From: AFRICA | Registered: Apr 2007
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quote:From Lamine la coquine: I am yet to see a "pure black African". Cheers!
I guess we haven't met physically... Again I'm a pure Black African like many other Africans whether you like it or not...
Posts: 919 | From: AFRICA | Registered: Apr 2007
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But you have been visiting AEE for some time now and you must have read some of the discussions on genetics and race. So anyone who talks of a "pure black African" or, by anaology, a "pure white European" or a "pure yellow Asian" or a "pure brown Asian"--well...sounds kinda...sorry... retarded.
And, of course, if you speak of "pure black African"--you are also necessarily implying that there are "impure black Africans". I am just curious. Who might they be? And do the same for "pure white Europeans" and "pure yellow/brown Asians".
You could also send us some documentation on your DNA--STRs, haplogroup, MRCA with other groups, etc--with appropriate commentary.
If that would be too technical then let us have an accurate genealogical tree of your ancestry for the last 20 generations.
Does anyone have any study about genetics of Chadic speakers?
I've come across studies on mtDNA distribution in the Chadic region [e.g. mtDNA of Chad Basin populations by V. Černý et al.], but admittedly, few studies have been published on Y marker distribution specifically in that region, which is all the more interesting, given the importance of the Sahara in prehistoric and historic human interaction, and changing conditions of which, and subsequent dessication has worked as a pump for population disperal to the Nile Valley and sub-Saharan West Africa. Some geneticists have themselves noted this inadequacy of DNA sampling in the region...
The present study reports the most extensive survey of Y-chromosome diversity in Africa, in terms of number of markers and populations, and has allowed us to initiate the disentangling of some of the emerging patterns of its complex variation. However, several areas of the continent have not been yet covered, including large portions of the Saharan/Sahelian belt (Niger and Chad), northern Africa (from Tunisia to Egypt), and eastern Africa south of Ethiopia (Kenya and neighboring nation states). **The analysis of these areas is necessary for an understanding of the origin and the present distribution of several interesting lineages, for which we have only partial information, to date.**... - Cruciani et al., A Back Migration from Asia to Sub-Saharan Africa Is Supported by High-Resolution Analysis of Human Y-Chromosome HaplotypesPosts: 1947 | Registered: Sep 2005
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That scenario was more prevalent about 2-3 generations ago where, with languages and cultures, a language specific group would be more contiguous and therfore more easily identifiable. This has changed considerably in Africa due to present upheavals and modernization! Chadic language, although African, is still vague! As someone suggested, identify the ethnic group associated with the specific language.
As example, if we were referencing the Basque language, we will have to concentrate on Northern Spain, Southern France, which is more speciifc to that location.
Posts: 1290 | From: usa | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by AFRICA I: Djehuti, It's clear that they are African, but in which African group do they belong genetically?
If by linguistics, then Mystery's reply above is correct. Chadic languages are Afrasian. But Chadic speakers themselves is a different story. Surely the various speakers who are spread out from central Africa to west Africa have varying lineages.
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Chadic is divided into 4 sub-families, East, West, Masa and Mandara:
The Chadic Language family comprises about 150 languages that lie in a band south of theSahara desert, stretching across southern Niger, northern Nigeria, northern Cameroon, and south-central Chad Republic.
A single Chadic language, Hausa, constitutes the entire western end of theChadic area. Hausa is the overwhelmingly largest Chadic language with well over 20 millionnative speakers, whereas most other Chadic languages have fewer than 100,000 speakers.
The Hausa native-speaking area covers most of the northwest quadrant of Nigeria and most of southernNiger. It is the lingua francafor all of northern Nigeriaand most of Niger.
Chadic languages at one timeprobably formed a blockfrom near the Niger River inthe west to their currenteastern extent in Chad Re-public. Hausa has absorbedmany of its cousins in thewest, Kanuri has replacedChadic languages west and southwest of Lake Chad, and Kanembu and Chadian Arabic have cutthrough the original Chadic area of Chad Republic.
In the 1930’s, Johannes Lukas presented the first comprehensive classification of languages ofthe Lake Chad basin, proposing a “Chado-Hamitic” group and a “Mandara” or “Chadic” group(Lukas 1936). A principal criterion for this categorization was the presence or absence of gram-matical gender. Greenberg (1950) set the stage for the modern classification of Chadic. On thebasis of lexical resemblances and shared patterns in morphology, Greenberg proposed a unitarygroup of “Chad” languages with nine subgroups, which included all Lukas’s “Chado-Hamitic” and“Chadic” languages and was itself a branch of the larger Afrasian (= Afroasiatic) family.
In the first true comparative Chadic publication, Newman and Ma (1966) proposed asubgrouping that unified Greenberg’s two largest groups of Chadic—group 1 at the western endand group 9 at the eastern end—into a “Plateau-Sahel” branch, with the remainder of Greenberg’sgroups united in a “Biu-Mandara” branch.
They identified a number of sound changes that unitedor differentiated the various subgroups and reconstructed a list of 150 items for a proto-Chadiclexicon.Newman and Ma’s Plateau-Sahel group soon became untenable.
Newman (1978) himself noted that counts of lexical similarities did not justify a special linkage between the western branch(Greenberg’s group 1) and the eastern branch (Greenberg’s group 9). Moreover, a major criterionfor Newman and Ma’s classification was a putative correspondence of Plateau-Sahel *s to Biu-Mandara *Ò. Research in the late 1960’s revealed that many of the Plateau-Sahel languages ofNigeria also have lateral fricatives, thus ruling this out as a criterion for subgrouping. http://www.linguistics.ucla.edu/people/schuh/Papers/Chadic_overview.pdfPosts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote:Originally posted by AFRICA I: Does anyone have any study about genetics of Chadic speakers?
Since Hausa has been identified, then compare to another language/ethnic group! I say this because I see variables (minimum= 2) that will point in opposite directions.
We may start of who are the real Hausa vis a vis the outsiders who are non Hausa but speak the language. How do the genetics comapre between Hausa and non Hausa? Same? DIfferent?
Posts: 1290 | From: usa | Registered: May 2005
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quote:I've come across studies on mtDNA distribution in the Chadic region [e.g. mtDNA of Chad Basin populations by V. Černý et al.], but admittedly, few studies have been published on Y marker distribution specifically in that region, which is all the more interesting, given the importance of the Sahara in prehistoric and historic human interaction, and changing conditions of which, and subsequent dessication has worked as a pump for population disperal to the Nile Valley and sub-Saharan West Africa. Some geneticists have themselves noted this inadequacy of DNA sampling in the region...
It's quite interesting that there are very few studies given the pivotal role of that region in African prehistory and in the migration of Africans, however Spencer Wells project is collecting dna sample from that region to fill the gap, I'm curious to see the results...
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A Bidirectional Corridor in the Sahel-Sudan Belt and the Distinctive Features of the Chad Basin Populations: A History Revealed by the Mitochondrial DNA Genome
* V. Černý1,*1Department of Anthropology & Environment, Institute of Archaeology, Czech Academy of Sciences, 118 01 Prague 1, Czech Republic*Corresponding author: Černý Viktor, Department of Anthropology & Environment, Institute of Archaeology, Czech Academy of Sciences, 118 01 Prague 1, Czech Republic, Fax: +420.257532288, Tel: +420.257014304, E-mail: cerny@arup.cas.cz, * A. Salas22Unidad de Genética, Instituto de Medicina Legal, Facultad de Medicina, Universidad de Santiago de Compostela, 15782, and Centro Nacional de Genotipado (CeGen), Hospital Clínico Universitario, 15706, Galicia, Spain, * M. Hájek11Department of Anthropology & Environment, Institute of Archaeology, Czech Academy of Sciences, 118 01 Prague 1, Czech Republic, * M. Žaloudková11Department of Anthropology & Environment, Institute of Archaeology, Czech Academy of Sciences, 118 01 Prague 1, Czech Republic and * R. Brdička33Accredited Laboratory for DNA Testing and Co-ordination Centre of Genetic Laboratories in the Czech Republic, Institute of Haematology and Blood Transfusion, 128 20 Prague 2, Czech Republic
* 1Department of Anthropology & Environment, Institute of Archaeology, Czech Academy of Sciences, 118 01 Prague 1, Czech Republic 2Unidad de Genética, Instituto de Medicina Legal, Facultad de Medicina, Universidad de Santiago de Compostela, 15782, and Centro Nacional de Genotipado (CeGen), Hospital Clínico Universitario, 15706, Galicia, Spain 3Accredited Laboratory for DNA Testing and Co-ordination Centre of Genetic Laboratories in the Czech Republic, Institute of Haematology and Blood Transfusion, 128 20 Prague 2, Czech Republic
*Corresponding author: Černý Viktor, Department of Anthropology & Environment, Institute of Archaeology, Czech Academy of Sciences, 118 01 Prague 1, Czech Republic, Fax: +420.257532288, Tel: +420.257014304, E-mail: cerny@arup.cas.cz Summary
The Chad Basin was sparsely inhabited during the Stone Age, and its continual settlement began with the Holocene. The role played by Lake Chad in the history and migration patterns of Africa is still unclear. We studied the mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) variability in 448 individuals from 12 ethnically and/or economically (agricultural/pastoral) different populations from Cameroon, Chad, Niger and Nigeria. The data indicate the importance of this region as a corridor connecting East and West Africa; however, this bidirectional flow of people in the Sahel-Sudan Belt did not erase features peculiar to the original Chad Basin populations. A new sub-clade, L3f2, is described, which together with L3e5 is most probably autochthonous in the Chad Basin. The phylogeography of these two sub-haplogroups seems to indicate prehistoric expansion events in the Chad Basin around 28,950 and 11,400 Y.B.P., respectively. The distribution of L3f2 is virtually restricted to the Chad Basin alone, and in particular to Chadic speaking populations, while L3e5 shows evidence for diffusion into North Africa at about 7,100 Y.B.P. The absence of L3f2 and L3e5 in African-Americans, and the limited number of L-haplotypes shared between the Chad Basin populations and African-Americans, indicate the low contribution of the Chad region to the Atlantic slave trade.Posts: 919 | From: AFRICA | Registered: Apr 2007
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Link It's funny that R1* (Asian) is characteristic of some Chadic speakers, whose language is indigenous to Africa. Anyway most of them are located in Northern Cameroon and Southern Chad where that haplogroup has a high frequency.
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It's found mainly in West/Central Africa, and then in spotty distribution in Egypt, and Arabia.
The idea of R1* supporting migration from Eurasia to Africa is due to the fact that most of the Eurasian Y chromsome haplotyes branch from upstream relatives of R1*.
So for instance the 1st Western Europeans had R1b, and central Asians had R1a, which is also heavily represented in India.
But none of those people have underived R1*.
It's more likely in my opinion that R1* originated in the Levantine than in Africa, but it would have been 35 thousand years ago, which begs the question of how long the haplotype would have been in the Levantine prior to this, before converging -again- on the East African M168 derivitive haplotypes.
Regardless, it has been in equatorial Africa for the last 30 thousand years.
No surprise then that Cameroonian who possess this haplotype in frequency of up to 90% do not look any different than neighboring Africans bearing 90% plus haplogroup E.
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More information on Chadic speaker language( and other languages from Chad) who are apparently distinct genetically from their Afro Asiatic speaker fellow:
Two major Afro-Asiatic language are represented in Chad. Chadic languages stretch from the western borders of Nigeria to Ouaddaï Prefecture, and Arabic-speaking populations are scattered throughout the Sahel. Chadic Languages
Most speakers of Chadic languages, including the 20 million speakers of Hausa, the major Chadic language, live west of Chad. The peculiar east-west distribution of Chadic along the southern fringe of the Sahara from western Nigeria to eastern Chad has led some experts to suggest that ancestral Chadic languages were spoken by peoples living along the southern shores of the Paleochadian Sea. The first cluster of languages is closely associated with water--the lake, the delta, the Chari and Logone rivers, and their adjacent floodplains. Water also is important to the economies of most of the populations speaking these languages. In the second cluster, Chadic speakers are descended from refugee populations who perhaps sought shelter in the highlands when the contraction of the sea and the increased aridity of the region allowed the penetration of more aggressive herding populations.
Within Chad, the Chadic languages are distributed in two patterns. The first extends from Lake Chad south along the Chari and Logone rivers to Mayo-Kebbi Prefecture. Individual languages fall into five groups, arrayed from north to southeast.
Buduma-Kouri is spoken by two groups of lake people who intermarry despite some social differences. The Buduma, who believe that they are the original inhabitants of Lake Chad, live on its northern islands and shores. In the past, the Buduma spent much of their time fishing on lake islands. In recent times, however, their economic activities have diversified to include farming and herding. Active in commerce between Chad and Nigeria, the Buduma raise cattle whose very large and hollow horns serve as flotation devices that permit their owners to "herd" them in the lake itself. The lake has long protected the Buduma, allowing them to maintain a separate identity. Despite centuries of contact with Islamic states around the lake, for example, they maintained their own religion until the early twentieth century.
The Kouri, who speak the same language, live on the shores and islands of the southern part of Lake Chad. More devout Muslims, the Kouri believe that they are descendants of Muslim migrants from Yemen and that they are related to the Kanembu, whose medieval empire sponsored the spread of Islam in the region. Kouri economic activities resemble those of the Buduma; however, the absence of polders along this part of the lakeshore has led the Kouri to confine farming to small plots around their villages. Although they confine their herds to the islands during the dry season, they may entrust them to neighboring Kanembu for pasturing during the rains.
Kotoko is spoken along the lower Chari and Logone rivers by peoples thought to be descendants of the legendary Sao. Divided into small states with fortified cities as their capitals, the Kotoko consider themselves "owners of the land" by virtue of their long residence, and other peoples in the region recognize this claim. For example, neighboring Arabs pay tribute for the right to farm and herd. The Kotoko also have a monopoly over fishing and water transport. Rights to the waters of the Logone and Chari rivers are divided among the cities, each of which has a "chief of the waters," whose communications with the water spirits determine the opening of the fishing season. Non-Kotoko must pay for the right to fish. Outnumbered in their own lands by Bororo and Arab herders, only about 7,000 Kotoko lived in Chad in the late 1960s; three times as many lived across the Logone in Cameroon. Strife in Chad -- particularly the troubles in N'Djamena in 1979 and 1980--probably has accelerated the emigration of the Kotoko from Chad.
Massa languages, including Massa, Moussey, Marba, and Dari, are centered in southern Chari-Baguirmi and Mayo-Kebbi prefectures. The Massa proper farm, herd, and fish in floodplains of the middle Chari. Repeatedly through their history, the Massa suffered raids from their Muslim neighbors--the Kanuri of the Borno Empire, the Barma of the Bagirmi Empire, and the Fulani of Cameroon. The Massa survived these military onslaughts, in part because their villages, which crown the hills in the Chari floodplain, afforded protection for much of the year. Having survived these threats, in recent years the Massa ironically have adopted Muslim dress and have superimposed some features of Fulani political structure on their local "chiefs of the lands." The other speakers of Massa languages resemble the Massa proper. Estimated to number 120,000 in the late 1970s, the largest group among them is the Moussey, who live in and around Gounou Gaya in Mayo-Kebbi Prefecture.
The last cluster of Chadic languages in this first distribution encompasses Nachéré, Lélé, Gablai, and Guidar spoken primarily in Tandjilé Prefecture and with outlying languages that include Gabri (in Tandjilé Prefecture) and Toumak, Somrai, Ndam, Miltou, and Saraoua (in Moyen-Chari Prefecture). This cluster of languages forms a transition zone between the Massa and the Sara languages. The numbers of speakers of these languages are small, probably because their peoples have been absorbed by more numerous neighbors through intermarriage or emigration.
The second Chadic language distribution comprises two clusters. The first brings together the languages spoken by the Hajerai, the mountain peoples of Guéra Prefecture. These peoples are descended from refugees from the surrounding plains who sought shelter in the mountains when invaded by raiders from neighboring centralized states. Despite the presence of non-Chadic languages (such as Kenga, which is part of the Sara-Bongo-Baguirmi group), most Hajerai speak Chadic languages, such as Djongor, Dangaleat, Bidyo, Mogoum, Sokoro, Barain, and Saba. The Hajerai groups share important religious institutions, such as the margai cult of place spirits; at the same time, they maintain separate identities and refuse to intermarry. All have traditions of fierce independence. The Hajerai were among the earliest supporters of rebellion against the Chadian national government in the 1960s.
Moubi languages of Ouaddaï Prefecture make up the second cluster of this second distribution of Chadic languages. The Moubi are a sedentary people who live south of the Massalit. They grow millet, sorghum, sesame, beans, cotton, and peanuts. In recent years, they have also adopted cattle herding, a practice borrowed from the Missiriye Arab herders who regularly cross their lands and with whom the Moubi have long exchanged goods and services. Like the Hajerai, the Moubi have resisted the government since shortly after independence. Arabic
There are about thirty different dialects of Arabic in Chad. The Arabs divide themselves into three major "tribes": the Juhayna, the Hassuna, and the Awlad Sulayman. In this context, tribe refers to a group claiming descent from a common ancestor. The Juhayna, who began arriving from Sudan in the fourteenth century, are by far the most important. The Hassuna, who migrated to Chad from Libya, live in Kanem Prefecture. The Awlad Sulayman also hail from Libya, but they arrived in the nineteenth century, well after the others. Most of the Arabs are herders or farmers.
Among Arabic herdsmen, life-styles vary considerably. The different needs of camels, cattle, goats, and sheep result in different patterns of settlement and movement. In addition to herding, many Arabic speakers earn their livelihoods as small and middle-level merchants. In N'Djamena and in towns such as Sarh and Moundou, Arabic speakers dominated local commerce up until the 1970s; however, because of the anti-Muslim violence in the south in the late 1970s, many moved to central or nothern Chad.
Despite the diversity of dialects and the scattered distribution of Arabic-speaking populations, the language has had a major impact on Chad. In the Sahel, Arab herdsmen and their wives frequent local markets to exchange their animals, butter, and milk for agricultural products, cloth, and crafts. Itinerant Arab traders and settled merchants in the towns play major roles in local and regional economies. As a result, Chadian Arabic (or Turku) has became a lingua franca, or trade language. Arabic also has been important because it is the language of Islam and of the Quran, its holy book. Quranic education has stimulated the spread of the language and enhanced its stature among the non-Arab Muslims of Chad.
Not all Arabic speakers are of Arab descent. The assimilation of local peoples (both free and slave) into Arabic groups has affected both the dialects and the customs of Arabic speakers in Chad. Non-Arabs also have adopted the language. To cite two examples, the Yalna and the Bandala are of Hajerai and Ouaddaïan origin, respectively, and were probably originally slaves who adopted the Arabic language of their masters. Among the Runga, who were not slaves, Arabic is also widely spoken.Posts: 919 | From: AFRICA | Registered: Apr 2007
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There are about thirty different dialects of Arabic in Chad. The Arabs divide themselves into three major "tribes": the Juhayna, the Hassuna, and the Awlad Sulayman. In this context, tribe refers to a group claiming descent from a common ancestor. The Juhayna, who began arriving from Sudan in the fourteenth century, are by far the most important. The Hassuna, who migrated to Chad from Libya, live in Kanem Prefecture. The Awlad Sulayman also hail from Libya, but they arrived in the nineteenth century, well after the others. Most of the Arabs are herders or farmers.
Among Arabic herdsmen, life-styles vary considerably. The different needs of camels, cattle, goats, and sheep result in different patterns of settlement and movement. In addition to herding, many Arabic speakers earn their livelihoods as small and middle-level merchants. In N'Djamena and in towns such as Sarh and Moundou, Arabic speakers dominated local commerce up until the 1970s; however, because of the anti-Muslim violence in the south in the late 1970s, many moved to central or nothern Chad.
Despite the diversity of dialects and the scattered distribution of Arabic-speaking populations, the language has had a major impact on Chad. In the Sahel, Arab herdsmen and their wives frequent local markets to exchange their animals, butter, and milk for agricultural products, cloth, and crafts. Itinerant Arab traders and settled merchants in the towns play major roles in local and regional economies. As a result, Chadian Arabic (or Turku) has became a lingua franca, or trade language. Arabic also has been important because it is the language of Islam and of the Quran, its holy book. Quranic education has stimulated the spread of the language and enhanced its stature among the non-Arab Muslims of Chad.
I dont know where you got this from, but these people are not ARABS, these are all AFRICANS who speak Arabic. Dont confuse speaking the Arabic language with being an Arab.
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Doug M, have you ever heard about "italic"? I'm not the author of the above extract...
Posts: 919 | From: AFRICA | Registered: Apr 2007
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quote:Originally posted by AFRICA I: More information on Chadic speaker language( and other languages from Chad) who are apparently distinct genetically from their Afro Asiatic speaker fellow...
Now that we have seen the italicized 'linguistic' assessment piece of the unreferenced author, let's now have the 'genetic' [lingustically or genetically-speaking?] differentiation bit.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Sep 2005
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Please read the posts above, Chadic speakers have been studied and results show that they have different genetic markers compare to Afro-Asiatic speakers in general. Although more studies are needed there is a difference so far.
Posts: 919 | From: AFRICA | Registered: Apr 2007
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^ What are you talking about? Exactly what genetic markers characterize Afrasian speakers (in general)??
Afrasian is a linguistic group. Speakers of Afrasian range from Arabia to Cameroon, so what does biological genetics have to do with it unless you are talking about specific populatons relating to Afrasian?
Posts: 26293 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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That's a good question, any knowledgeable person realize that there is a correlation between languages and genetic markers, even the Human Genetics Professor Emeritus Cavalli-Sforza wrote few articles about that...I noticed(this is me), maybe I'm wrong, that Afro-Asian speakers have the E3b genetic marker in their blood (generally speaking)...however Chadic speakers, although they are Afro Asian speaker have the non African R1* marker...please don't hesitate to bring your input...
Posts: 919 | From: AFRICA | Registered: Apr 2007
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quote:Originally posted by AFRICA I: Please read the posts above, Chadic speakers have been studied and results show that they have different genetic markers compare to Afro-Asiatic speakers in general.
Granted that this study shows "mixed Chadic" [all from Cameroon] speaking groups, who happen to carry 67% R1* lineages, how are they any different? You don't have figures for other Chadic speakers outside of that area [northern Cameroon]. Like other Afrasan speakers, they don't carry a single lineage. Like other Afrasan speakers they also fall into group III lineages [including E3b]. As Djehuti noted, "Near Eastern" Afrasan groups carry a mosaic of lineages, along with group III lineages [including E3b].
As far as IX is concerned [and already noted], we have:
With the exception of a single Y chromosome from Morocco with the M269 mutation (haplotype 117b), all group IX African chromosomes are characterized by the presence of the M173 and M207 derived alleles and the absence of the downstream mutations (haplotype 117). Haplotype 117 was found in only Cameroon, where it accounts for 26% of the chromosomes (40% in northern Cameroon). Chromosomes from Cameroon with this haplotype are the same as those reported in a previous article as belonging to haplotype 1C ( Scozzari et al. 1999) - Cruciani et al. 2002
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Sep 2005
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Djehuti, Mystery, The majority of Afro-Asiatic speakers carry E3b, whereas Chadic speakers carrye R1*, which is not common in Africa...plese come back with more input...I'm open, maybe I'm wrong...
Posts: 919 | From: AFRICA | Registered: Apr 2007
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quote:Originally posted by AFRICA I: Djehuti, Mystery, The majority of Afro-Asiatic speakers carry E3b, whereas Chadic speakers carrye R1*, which is not common in Africa...plese come back with more input...I'm open, maybe I'm wrong...
Please address the specifics of what I had already questioned on, before asking for 'more input'. And again, where is your figures for Chadic speakers at large, not from northern Cameroon, inciting you to make sweeping generalizations that have yet to be supported?
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Sep 2005
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^ LOL of course! Since when did I say that those northern Cameroonians carrying R1 were Afrasian speakers?? I just said they exist in Cameroon as they do in Nigeria where they carry E3a etc. What exactly are you talking about?
Posts: 26293 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ LOL of course! Since when did I say any of those R1 carrying northern Cameroonians Afrasian speakers?? I just said they exist in Cameroon as they do in Nigeria where they carry E3a etc. What exactly are you talking about?
He is essentially generalizing "Chadic" speakers as being distinct from other Afrasan groups, who are known for notable detections of M35 chromosomes amongst them, on the basis of notable frequencies of the rare R1* chromosomes in northern Cameroon detected amongst Chadic speaking groups therein. Of course, this generalization has no substantial merit, pending his demonstration of this trend in Chadic speakers across the continent, as opposed to one geographical region, which in this case happens to be in Cameroon.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Sep 2005
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Question why the hell dose any of what you all are talking about matter to the people of chad or cameroon or black people as a race? The fact that they are black people is what matters to me if you can honestly trace your ancestors and your ancestors can trace there ancestors back to the motherland (Africa)before any Asian, Arab, or European influence is what matters. Africa as a country and african history has been hi jacked by Arabs, and Europeans and I find my self as a Afro-American troubled by this.
Posts: 3 | From: Philadelphia, PA, USA | Registered: Jun 2007
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Additional consideration on why northern Cameroon is a case that cannot be ceased on to make generalization about Chadic speakers. Courtesy of Cruciani et al. 2002:
Fali (39) - Adamawa (Niger-Congo) - IX lineages = 23%
Tali (15) - Adamawa (Niger-Congo) - IX lineages = 7 %
Mixed Nilo-Sharan (9) - Central Sudanic/Saharan (Nilo-Saharan) - IX = 11%
^Hence, notable frequencies in essentially all the groups from major African macro-language families. Using these populations to make generalizations about other populations who belong to any of these macro-language families would be misleading; for instance, based on 56% , 12% or 23% of the sampled groups bearing IX lineages, who also happen to be amongst Niger-Congo speakers, if one were to use this data to suggest that West Atlantic speakers are distinct from other Niger-Congo speakers, and likewise that Volta-Congo speakers are distinct from other Niger-Congo in “general”, this would be misleading, because northern Cameroon groups are not representative of all West Atlantic speakers or Volta-Congo speakers; they are just a subset of these groups. It is also a non-starter to begin with, since populations are known to have varying trends of lineage distribution.
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quote:Originally posted by B: Question why the hell dose any of what you all are talking about matter to the people of chad or cameroon or black people as a race? The fact that they are black people is what matters to me if you can honestly trace your ancestors and your ancestors can trace there ancestors back to the motherland (Africa)before any Asian, Arab, or European influence is what matters. Africa as a country and african history has been hi jacked by Arabs, and Europeans and I find my self as a Afro-American troubled by this.
^ First of all, Africa is not a "country"; it is a continent.
And second, why don't you address AfricaI since it was HE who started this whole thread and ask strange and silly questions pertaining to the lineages of Afrasian speakers!
Posts: 26293 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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I appreciate the input from my fellow posters, although I expected more original input, the thread actually shows that Afro-Asian speakers can't be boxed into one genetic marker. However it would be very interesting to see more extensive genetic studies about Chadic speakers since they are not only confined to Northern Cameroon and Southern Chad...I hope the posters who voiced their opinion in this thread will bring more substantial and original information in the future about Chadic speakers...like bringing some genetic information about Chadic speakers leaving outside the area studied in the article I posted...
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I appreciate the input from my fellow posters, although I expected more original input, the thread actually shows that Afro-Asian speakers can't be boxed into one genetic marker.
This was a non-starter to begin with.
E3b-M35 is a correlative marker for Afrasan language expansion, but it doesn't mean that it should necessarily be the only lineage in the groups that speak languages belonging to the Afrasan super family. In fact, a population that wasn't initially speakers of a language placed into that super-family can become a speaker of it, due to acculturation.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Sep 2005
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^ Which is why AfricaI your questions (assumptions) don't make any sense.
Posts: 26293 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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What are my questions, and what are my assumptions? The way you approach a debate is not very healthy intellectually...this is something I noticed with some posters in this thread...I refrain from naming those posters...it's not healthy either...
Posts: 919 | From: AFRICA | Registered: Apr 2007
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This is for posters who tentatively intervened in this thread, I will post other threads, but try to be more insightful in you responses. Explanation: all posters failed to thoroughly analyze or bring more input about the genetic background of Chadic speakers...I hope another poster would be able to save this thread...otherwise I'm disappointed so far by the quality of the posts in this thread...
Posts: 919 | From: AFRICA | Registered: Apr 2007
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Although why Clyde Winters denies the existence of such a phylum is beyond me.
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