posted
Given numerous studies and writings over the years shown here and elsewhere on the relatedness of Greek civilization, genetic profile and ideas to African(Egyptian) and near-eastern(Phoenician?) sources can ancient Greece and Greek intellectualism be better understood in the context as an extension, exploration or continuation of these regions and their contributions and not as is commonly understood to be a "European" contribution?
It is clear on a few things:
1. Mediterranean served as the melting pot or "frog pond" of the ancient world.
2. The Greek writers, rulers and intellectuals would often travel to the nile valley in search of guidance/knowledge.
3. There are some greek legends suggesting a connection or possible colonization of early Greece from nile-valley Africa and Phoenicia.
4. Modern genetic studies done on greece suggest that a. ancient and modern Greece are outliers to the European region b. Tropical Africans, especially from the north-eastern region have left a strong presence on the Greek profile through Benin HBS and e3b.
I believe that the west is today, so euro-centered that any discussion or evidence leading Greece to Africa and near-eastern sources would necessitate a change in the paradigm in western thinking and *need I say* a new "humility", as Greece is essentially the fountainhead of western thought and civilization from which most of its identity as "western" flows. I'm sure that would be too-much for their little euro-centric world.
What do you think?
Posts: 426 | From: Cali-for-nia | Registered: Jan 2006
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I wouldn't go so far as to call Ancient Greece an extension...as if there was mass colonization. Though, there are obvious traits shared between Greece and the ancient Levant and Ancient Kemet.
Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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^^I agree with King Scorpion, however, your point is well taken, that Greece was not the start of the traditions in civilization, culture and learning that many scholars have tried to make it out to be.
Posts: 8889 | Registered: May 2005
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No Greece was not just an offshoot of African (Egypt)/Near Eastern civilizatiosn, it was profoundly influenced by them, but it was still it's own unique, Indo-European based civilization. There was no colonization or ethnic replacement of anykind, contrary to what many Afrocentrists or Clyde Winters say .
Posts: 447 | From: Somewhere son... | Registered: Sep 2006
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Greece has always had more incommon with the Levant area than it did with Europe north of itself, it wasn't untill the renaissance that greece suddenly became part of the northern european club.
Its also funny to read when white nationalist think that muslims were only good for preserving the greek knowledge for them during their "dark age", as if they have more right on this knowledge than the muslims or that these muslims really were thinking about them when translating and studying those scriptures.lol
Posts: 1420 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Obelisk_18 wrote: There was no colonization or ethnic replacement of anykind,
Thats not completly true, the turks certainly changed anatolia for good, and all greeks were colonized by turks untill recently. Almost no one in modern turkey speaks greek anymore, but they are geneticly more as greeks than turks from central asian steppes. Turks from Turkey are just turkified greeks.
Prime minister of Turkey (Turkified greek)
Real Turk from central asia. Posts: 1420 | Registered: May 2005
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hey question bout the turks, were the original turks like chinese or something? cause that's what I see in alot of their pictures. get back to me. peace.
Posts: 447 | From: Somewhere son... | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote: I wouldn't go so far as to call Ancient Greece an extension...as if there was mass colonization.
Really? In light of the evidence we should atleast *strongly* consider an egyptian origin for early Greece. The facts are there.
quote:The son of king Belus of Egypt, according to legend Danaus and his brother Aegyptus had 100 children, Danaus 50 girls (the Danaides, "daughters of Danaus" ) and Aegyptus 50 boys.
When all the children had grown into adulthood Aegyptus demanded that all his sons should marry the daughters of Danaus, refusing such a request, Danaus and his daughters fled to the Greek city of Argos, in the northeastern Peloponnese. Aegyptus and his 50 sons pursued them in a hostile manner, and when they arrived in Argos they were in a frenzied mood. Danaus, not wanting them to harm the Argives, consented to the mass wedding, but in reality, hateful of the whole idea.
On the day of the wedding Danaus spoke to each of his daughters, and instructed them all to kill whoever they took for their husband, the plan was to murder them in the wedding bed. All but one successfully killed the cousin they married. The exception was Hypermnestra, which when translated can mean "special intent" or "excessive wooing". The reason she gave for sparing Lynceus' life, and also helping him escape, was that he left her virginity untouched; she loved and respected him for this. Danaus was angered when he learned of his daughters disobedience, so much that he threw her to the mercy of the Argive law courts, but she was acquitted. Some versions say Aphrodite the love goddess intervened.
Danaus had an ingenious way of marrying off the rest of his daughters, by getting the suitors to run the length of a race-course, his daughters standing at the finishing line, each were chosen by the order in which the suitors finished the race.
Lynceus, the husband of Hypermnestra returned to Argos and killed Danaus, as revenge for the deaths of his brothers. Later Lynceus and Hypermnestra ruled Argos and lay the foundation to the dynasty of Argive kings. The descendants of the Danaides were known as the "Danaans" (Danai) in Homer's epic poems, the term simply means "Greeks" or the Greek nation as a whole. The myth of Danaus is probably a reflection of the contact between Egypt and Mycenaean. Greeks (circa 1600-1200 BCE and a possible Egyptian origin for the Danaans.
quote:Much to our surprise, the reason why Greeks did not show a close relatedness with all the other Mediterraneans analyzed (Tables 5, 6 and Figs 1–3) was their genetic relationship with sub-Saharan eth- nic groups now residing in Ethiopia, Sudan and West Africa (Burki- na-Fasso). Although some Greek DRB1 alleles are not completely specific of the Greek/sub-Saharan sharing, the list of alleles (Table 5) is self-explanatory. The conclusion is that part of the Greek gen- etic pool may be sub-Saharan and that the admixture has occurred at an uncertain but ancient time.
HLA genes in Macedonians and the sub-Saharan origin of the Greeks. A. Arnaiz-Villena; K. Dimitroski; A. Pacho; J. Moscoso; E. Go´mez-Casado etc.
Greek Pyramids?
quote: That's right. Greek pyramids! On Greek soil, at Hellenikon and Ligourio west of Athens in the Argolid region, are two limestone pyramids that are stylistically very much like those at Giza near Cairo. The big difference is size; the Greek pyramids are only the size of a large room compared to the Great Pyramid's height (with capstone) of almost 500 feet.
You mean "Argolid" as in "Argos"? Hmmm, the puzzle seems to be coalecsing in a certain direction can you see it?
quote: I wouldn't go so far as to call Ancient Greece an extension...as if there was mass colonization.
Really? In light of the evidence we should atleast *strongly* consider an egyptian origin for early Greece. The facts are there.
quote:The son of king Belus of Egypt, according to legend Danaus and his brother Aegyptus had 100 children, Danaus 50 girls (the Danaides, "daughters of Danaus" ) and Aegyptus 50 boys.
When all the children had grown into adulthood Aegyptus demanded that all his sons should marry the daughters of Danaus, refusing such a request, Danaus and his daughters fled to the Greek city of Argos, in the northeastern Peloponnese. Aegyptus and his 50 sons pursued them in a hostile manner, and when they arrived in Argos they were in a frenzied mood. Danaus, not wanting them to harm the Argives, consented to the mass wedding, but in reality, hateful of the whole idea.
On the day of the wedding Danaus spoke to each of his daughters, and instructed them all to kill whoever they took for their husband, the plan was to murder them in the wedding bed. All but one successfully killed the cousin they married. The exception was Hypermnestra, which when translated can mean "special intent" or "excessive wooing". The reason she gave for sparing Lynceus' life, and also helping him escape, was that he left her virginity untouched; she loved and respected him for this. Danaus was angered when he learned of his daughters disobedience, so much that he threw her to the mercy of the Argive law courts, but she was acquitted. Some versions say Aphrodite the love goddess intervened.
Danaus had an ingenious way of marrying off the rest of his daughters, by getting the suitors to run the length of a race-course, his daughters standing at the finishing line, each were chosen by the order in which the suitors finished the race.
Lynceus, the husband of Hypermnestra returned to Argos and killed Danaus, as revenge for the deaths of his brothers. Later Lynceus and Hypermnestra ruled Argos and lay the foundation to the dynasty of Argive kings. The descendants of the Danaides were known as the "Danaans" (Danai) in Homer's epic poems, the term simply means "Greeks" or the Greek nation as a whole. The myth of Danaus is probably a reflection of the contact between Egypt and Mycenaean. Greeks (circa 1600-1200 BCE and a possible Egyptian origin for the Danaans.
quote:Much to our surprise, the reason why Greeks did not show a close relatedness with all the other Mediterraneans analyzed (Tables 5, 6 and Figs 1–3) was their genetic relationship with sub-Saharan eth- nic groups now residing in Ethiopia, Sudan and West Africa (Burki- na-Fasso). Although some Greek DRB1 alleles are not completely specific of the Greek/sub-Saharan sharing, the list of alleles (Table 5) is self-explanatory. The conclusion is that part of the Greek gen- etic pool may be sub-Saharan and that the admixture has occurred at an uncertain but ancient time.
HLA genes in Macedonians and the sub-Saharan origin of the Greeks. A. Arnaiz-Villena; K. Dimitroski; A. Pacho; J. Moscoso; E. Go´mez-Casado etc.
Greek Pyramids?
quote: That's right. Greek pyramids! On Greek soil, at Hellenikon and Ligourio west of Athens in the Argolid region, are two limestone pyramids that are stylistically very much like those at Giza near Cairo. The big difference is size; the Greek pyramids are only the size of a large room compared to the Great Pyramid's height (with capstone) of almost 500 feet.
You mean "Argolid" as in "Argos"? Hmmm, the puzzle seems to be coalecsing in a certain direction can you see it?
You are correct Greek history makes it clear that civilization was founded in Greece by Egyptians and Garamante people. Both groups came from Africa. See:
Although Lefkowitz teaches classical studies her research methods leave a lot to be desired. She declares in Not Out of Africa that , "there is no archaeological data to support the notion that Egyptians migrated to Greece during the second millennium B.C. (or before that)" .
This statement is untrue. There is an abundance of evidence that the Egyptians had long settled many parts of ancient Greece.
In the ancient writings of the Greeks, the Egyptians were called Melampodes or "blackfeet". The Egyptians were also called Danaans in Greek history.
According to Hyainus in Fabula , and Appollonius, when the Danaans came to Greece they were called 'blackfeet'. This view is supported by the discovery of an inscribed stone in the Peloponnese that had Egyptian writing on it dating to the 5th Dynasty.
This short review of the Classical literature relating to the African identity of the Egyptians suggest that the views held by Lefkowitz in relation to an Egyptian presence in Egypt may not be correct.
Numerous archaeologist have found abundant evidence of Egyptians settled in Greece long before the coming of the Indo-European-Aryans to Anatolia.
Cecil Torr in Memphis and Mycenae; , discussed the inscriptions of Amemhotep found in a Mycenaean tomb at Ialysos in Rhodes and an 18th Dynasty scarab dating to the same period. As a result of the discovery of these artifacts Torr speculated that there were relations between Egypt and Greece between 1271 and 850 B.C.
The discovery of Torr was only the tip of the iceberg. Since the discovery of these artifacts in the 19th Century, archaeological evidence of Egyptians in Greece during the 2nd millennium has also been reported by J.D.S. Pendlebury, William A. Ward, and S.W. Manning .
Pendlebury provides a detailed discussion of the Egyptian material found at Laconia, Argolid, Thebes in Boeotia, and Athens. Pendlebury like Torr, believes that there were close relations between Greece and Egypt between the 12th and 7th centuries B.C.
Pendlebury's Aegyptiaca, has been excellently followed up by N. J. Skon Jedele, in her recent dissertation on Egyptian artifacts found in Greece. This dissertation provides even more examples of Egyptian artifacts found in Greece than those recorded by Pendlebury over sixty years ago.
Manning gives a well balanced discussion of the Egyptian material found in the Aegean area dating between the Old Kingdom and Dynasties 10 and ll. The work of Hankey and Warren indicate that there is archaeological evidence for Egyptians in ancient Greece, contrary to the false claims of Lefkowitz in Not Out of Africa.
The question must be asked, if there is this abundance of literature relating to an Egyptian role in ancient Greece, Why does Lefkowitz fail to discuss this literature? This question must be answered by Lefkowitz.
The failure of Lefkowitz to discuss this relevant knowledge base is inexcusable given her position at a prestigious Eastern University. The existence of a rich literature on the presence of Egyptians in ancient Greece makes Lefkowitz's claims about the ancient Greeks patently false.
The archaeological evidence supports the view that Greece, in many respects was an extention of Egypt.
End Notes
1. Lefkowitz, Not out of Africa, p.157.
2.Cecil Torr, Memphis and Mycenae, (London: Cambridge University Press, 1896) p.61.
3.Ibid., pp.64-65.
4. J.D.S. Pendlebury, Aegyptica: A catalogue of Egyptian objects in the Aegean Area, Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. 1930.
5. William W. Ward, Egypt and the Mediterranean World 2200- 1900 B.C., Beirut: American University of Beirut. 1971.
6. S.W. Manning, The absolute chronology of the Aegean Early Bronze Age, Sheffield: Sheffield Academic Press.
Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Obelisk_18: oh dude come on.....
Come on what? I provided the evidence. Can you refute or make a counter-argument atleast? The reality, (which you are probably not ready to face)is that there is abundant evidence suggesting that parts of early greece were colonized by egyptians.
Posts: 426 | From: Cali-for-nia | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:Clyde Winters: Turkic speaking people are very mixed. Some look European, others look Mongoloid.
That's what i said, alot of people have been Turkified including people in Anatolia by the seljuk Turks, the original Turkic speaking people are "mongoloids" and not as the Azeris or people of modern Turkey.
This man to the right you posted is a perfect example of a real turk unlike the two Azeri men next to him who are turkified persians. Posts: 1420 | Registered: May 2005
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Yonis, Using a small part of Clyde Winters thunder, in this case, the speakers of the Turkic language vary in physical description and location. Consider the location of present day Turkey (a foot, maybe 2 feet! in Europe) and many of the Turkish tribes within proximity (to Europe) preferred European women! Don't forget that many Slavs preferred Turks (when they first conquered Byzantium) because their status would be uplifted and they could revolt against their masters. So in this case, Islam was a payback tool, psychologically speaking! Secondly if one had a choice of accepting Islam or death, some would prefer Living over death! Thirdly, in the early 1900's (I think) many Muslim Greeks were forced to move to Turkey and Christian Turks to move to Greece! In that area as you know, many tribes tend to speak many languages so Dari, Pushto, Turkish, Farsi. Even in Afghanistan, the Hazara were ethnically cleansed because they were too Asian for the Pushtun!
Posts: 1290 | From: usa | Registered: May 2005
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I agree with most of what you said, my point was to show that modern turks are simply turkified greeks, since seljuk turks basically forced all people they conquered to speak their language and adopt Islam in particular when they sacked the Byzantine state.
And since many people consider turks as just a northern extention of arabs, then why arent the same being said about the greeks whose closest relatives are people of Turkey?
quote:Thirdly, in the early 1900's (I think) many Muslim Greeks were forced to move to Turkey and Christian Turks to move to Greece!
I don't think they were forced, it was an agreement from both countries to relocate the christians and muslims in those respective countries. This plan was schemed by northern europeans during the immediate collapse of the Ottoman empire after WWI, so to make a clear boundary between east and west even though the foundation of west is based in modern Turkey where the east is suppose to start but are not included because they are muslims.
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ancient greece is its own distint civilition and it did not originate in egypt althought we could argue that there was some influences.
Posts: 216 | From: london | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Yonis: Greece has always had more incommon with the Levant area than it did with Europe north of itself, it wasn't untill the renaissance that greece suddenly became part of the northern european club.
Its also funny to read when white nationalist think that muslims were only good for preserving the greek knowledge for them during their "dark age", as if they have more right on this knowledge than the muslims or that these muslims really were thinking about them when translating and studying those scriptures.lol
Yonis is absolutely correct. We have evidence from archaeology, linguistics, anthropology, and more recently genetics, that in prehistoric times there were waves of migration into Greece from Asia Minor (modern day Turkey). And that overall, culturally as well as genetically, Greeks are more 'Middle Eastern' than ancient Egypt ever was. How ironic then that for the longest Westerners have been calling Egypt a "Near-Eastern" civilization yet emphasize ancient Greece as being 'European'!
Yonis is also right about Western Europe trying to include Greece because of it's ancient heritage despite it's southeastern European- Western Asian roots, and it's only when Westerners actually come in contact with Greeks in real life that they realize this and suddenly Greeks are not 'white' enough. (Some of you know what I'm talking about)
Also Yonis is correct that the original Turks come from eastern steppes of Asia i.e. Mongolia. It was during the 6th to 11th centuries that Turkic nomads began expanding westward into the western steppes in Central Asia and from there into southwest Asia, the caucasus, and Asia Minor which became 'Turkey'. That is why modern day Turkic speakers range in appearance from east asian or "mongoloid" (a racial term I detest) to Iranian looking, to Caucasian (from the Caucasus region) looking. The Turkic languages are themselves a subfamily of the Altai-Siberian language phylum which also includes Mongol languages, and Manchu-Tungus languages spoken from Mongolia to Manchuria and parts of Siberia.
Here is a more accurate map of Turkic speakers today in Eurasia
And to Mmmkay, I agree that the Greek myth of Danaus does in someway reflect the ancient connection Greece had with Egypt, but it's incorrect to say that Greek culture by and large was solely a product of Egypt. I also doubt that the ancient stone structures you see in Greece had anything to do with the structures of Egypt like the pyramids. Although we have evidence of peoples of African ancestry making their way into Greece during the Neolithic and actually introducing Neolithic culture there. Interestingly enough, the Argolid prefecture of Greece is where the earliest agricultural myths and traditions date and it is the same area featured in the myth of Danaus.
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Interestingly enough, the Argolid prefecture of Greece is where the earliest agricultural myths and traditions date and it is the same area featured in the myth of Danaus.
Indeed, I believe the Argolid region is where we should look, if anywhere, for the strongest evidence of early egypt-greco connections.
If nothing else, we can say with good certainty that Egyptians founded or colonized a *part* of Greece such as the above and as a result this led to certain cultural adoptions via the Egyptians in contact with those early greeks.
quote:it's incorrect to say that Greek culture by and large was solely a product of Egypt.
Not exactly what I said, I said it can be possibly be viewed as an *extension* or unique *expression* of egyptian-near eastern civilisations and ideas, ofcourse with its own unique indigenous contributions. There is archeological, genetic, and historical data that supports this proposal.
For instance, we know that greek script is an adaptation of *phoenician*. We know that many greek words have egyptian origins such as the word "papyros" or "papy" meaning "paper" from the indigenous papyrus palnt on the banks of the nile. We know thats many greek carry benin hbs, we also know that they show for e3b. We know that greek writers and intellectuals such as aristotle, hippocrates, and plato traveled to egypt to gain knowledge. The early greeks borrowed egyptian early stylistic art forms such as for statues, architectural aspects such as fluted pillars, numbers, and ideas.
This is not merely *influence* as is commonly euphemised or played down, this is more accurately termed "diffusion" or cultural-linguistic transmission. Ofcourse greece would not resemble its cultural predessors in completeness but the foundation of greek culture is clear. What the greeks did was continue through with its ideas and expand upon it with many contributions of their own.
Posts: 426 | From: Cali-for-nia | Registered: Jan 2006
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Can you tell me more about Benin HBS and if it's possible to know WHEN it first appeared in Greece?
Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Mmmkay: Indeed, I believe the Argolid region is where we should look, if anywhere, for the strongest evidence of early egypt-greco connections.
If nothing else, we can say with good certainty that Egyptians founded or colonized a *part* of Greece such as the above and as a result this led to certain cultural adoptions via the Egyptians in contact with those early greeks.
You misunderstand. We have evidence of of people of African descent entering the Greek peninsula during prehistoric times long before 'Egypt' even existed, let alone 'Greece'.
There is no evidence of "colonization", rather all the evidence points to part of Neolithic expansion from Northeast Africa and Western Asia into the Aegean.
quote:Not exactly what I said, I said it can be possibly be viewed as an *extension* or unique *expression* of egyptian-near eastern civilisations and ideas, ofcourse with its own unique indigenous contributions. There is archeological, genetic, and historical data that supports this proposal.
For instance, we know that greek script is an adaptation of *phoenician*. We know that many greek words have egyptian origins such as the word "papyros" or "papy" meaning "paper" from the indigenous papyrus palnt on the banks of the nile. We know thats many greek carry benin hbs, we also know that they show for e3b. We know that greek writers and intellectuals such as aristotle, hippocrates, and plato traveled to egypt to gain knowledge. The early greeks borrowed egyptian early stylistic art forms such as for statues, architectural aspects such as fluted pillars, numbers, and ideas.
This is not merely *influence* as is commonly euphemised or played down, this is more accurately termed "diffusion" or cultural-linguistic transmission. Ofcourse greece would not resemble its cultural predessors in completeness but the foundation of greek culture is clear. What the greeks did was continue through with its ideas and expand upon it with many contributions of their own.
^ Of course there were influences on Greek culture or on the formation of Greek culture, but much of it dated from the Neolithic to Bronze Age times and not so much 'Classical' times. Also, Greek scholars traveling to Egypt to "gain knowledge" seems to be a common misconception. Sure, there were some Greek scholars who travelled to Egypt as they did to other parts of areas of the ancient world known to them. There seems to be this notion that Egypt was somehow 'special' when it came to Greek learning when this was not the case.
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by King_Scorpion: Can you tell me more about Benin HBS and if it's possible to know WHEN it first appeared in Greece?
There are four sickle cell haplotypes: Benin HBS, Bantu HBS, Senegal, and an Asian haplotype in Arabia and India. Each one named after the area of origin.
Benin HBS originated in the Benin area of Africa, but it's presence elsewhere can only be attributed to migrations or expansions through the Sahara when it was once fertile. This is the reason why not only why Egyptians carry it but even Greece and Turkey which correspond the Neolithic expansions into Western Asia and into Europe.
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Mmmkay: Indeed, I believe the Argolid region is where we should look, if anywhere, for the strongest evidence of early egypt-greco connections.
If nothing else, we can say with good certainty that Egyptians founded or colonized a *part* of Greece such as the above and as a result this led to certain cultural adoptions via the Egyptians in contact with those early greeks.
You misunderstand. We have evidence of of people of African descent entering the Greek peninsula during prehistoric times long before 'Egypt' even existed, let alone 'Greece'.
There is no evidence of "colonization", rather all the evidence points to part of Neolithic expansion from Northeast Africa and Western Asia into the Aegean.
quote:Not exactly what I said, I said it can be possibly be viewed as an *extension* or unique *expression* of egyptian-near eastern civilisations and ideas, ofcourse with its own unique indigenous contributions. There is archeological, genetic, and historical data that supports this proposal.
For instance, we know that greek script is an adaptation of *phoenician*. We know that many greek words have egyptian origins such as the word "papyros" or "papy" meaning "paper" from the indigenous papyrus palnt on the banks of the nile. We know thats many greek carry benin hbs, we also know that they show for e3b. We know that greek writers and intellectuals such as aristotle, hippocrates, and plato traveled to egypt to gain knowledge. The early greeks borrowed egyptian early stylistic art forms such as for statues, architectural aspects such as fluted pillars, numbers, and ideas.
This is not merely *influence* as is commonly euphemised or played down, this is more accurately termed "diffusion" or cultural-linguistic transmission. Ofcourse greece would not resemble its cultural predessors in completeness but the foundation of greek culture is clear. What the greeks did was continue through with its ideas and expand upon it with many contributions of their own.
^ Of course there were influences on Greek culture or on the formation of Greek culture, but much of it dated from the Neolithic to Bronze Age times and not so much 'Classical' times. Also, Greek scholars traveling to Egypt to "gain knowledge" seems to be a common misconception. Sure, there were some Greek scholars who travelled to Egypt as they did to other parts of areas of the ancient world known to them. There seems to be this notion that Egypt was somehow 'special' when it came to Greek learning when this was not the case.
To be fair, I dont think mmkay tried to make the relationship between Egypt and Greece out to be "special". However, that said, there was a Greek dynasty that fully adopted Egyptian culture and style in Egypt and the greatest thinkers of the Greeks wrote their works in Alexandria Egypt, not Greece. Daresay, there are many evidences of more than casual contact and connections between the Greeks and Egyptians from the historical record. I guess the issue mmkay is addressing is the notion that Greek knowledge and intellect sprang fully formed from the bosom of the Greek isles, with no input or seed knowledge from without. That is obviously false, as many of the ideas and expressions of the Greeks are found in far older cultures from long before the birth of Greek philosophy. The Greeks were well known for acknowledging those who came before them and seeking out knowledge to the ends of the known world. This aspect of the Greek intellectual tradition has been played down by many classical scholars, who try in vain to maintain an air of exclusivity about the acheivements of the Greeks in terms of knowledge and intellect. Again, this underlines Greece as an extension or continuation of older trends in civilization from Africa and the Near East, as opposed to the ORIGIN or STARTING POINT.
Posts: 8889 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by King_Scorpion: Can you tell me more about Benin HBS and if it's possible to know WHEN it first appeared in Greece?
There are four sickle cell haplotypes: Benin HBS, Bantu HBS, Senegal, and an Asian haplotype in Arabia and India. Each one named after the area of origin.
Benin HBS originated in the Benin area of Africa, but it's presence elsewhere can only be attributed to migrations or expansions through the Sahara when it was once fertile. This is the reason why not only why Egyptians carry it but even Greece and Turkey which correspond the Neolithic expansions into Western Asia and into Europe.
That thing about the Benin HBS in Greece in interesting, could it be a result of the Arab Mediterranean slave trade, or something more ancient? What do studies say about this? get back to me. peace.
Posts: 447 | From: Somewhere son... | Registered: Sep 2006
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Calling Ancient Greece "Middle-" or "Near Eastern", while perhaps good for stimulating controversy, is probably not wise, as the concept of the "Near East" is somewhat nebulous and unscientific to begin with. What can be said, however, is that Greek culture was a mixture of indigenous Southeast European, Southwest Asian, and Northeast African influences, a natural consequence of its crossroads-like geographic position.
I'm fairly familiar with Egyptian influence on Greek culture, but I am more interested in Southwest Asian influences. Considering Greece is closer geographically to Southwest Asia, we would expect even greater cultural and genetic ties, yet Egyptian influences seem to generate more press (perhaps because of their greater blackness).
Posts: 7069 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote: You misunderstand. We have evidence of people of African descent entering the Greek peninsula during prehistoric times long before 'Egypt' even existed, let alone 'Greece'.
Forgive me, but that had nothing to do with the evidence I cited, really irrelevant. What we are talking about here is *Egyptian* or nile valley cultural/genetic transmission to Greece. The DNA study I cited on the sub-saharan origin of the Greeks pinpointed that to the Sudan among other regions.
quote: Of course there were influences on Greek culture or on the formation of Greek culture, but much of it dated from the Neolithic to Bronze Age times and not so much 'Classical' times. Also, Greek scholars traveling to Egypt to "gain knowledge" seems to be a common misconception.
A *conception* with basis in *fact* as written by the greeks themselves:
quote:for the priest of Egypt recount from the records of their sacred book that they were visited in early times by Orpheus, Musaeus, melampus, and Daedalus, also by the poet homer and Lycurgus of Sparta, later by Solon of Athens and the philosopher Plato, and that there also came Pythagoras of Samos and mathematician Eudoxus, as well as Democritus of Abdera and Oenipides of Chios....Also of the ancient sculptors, the most renowned sojourned among them, namely, Telecles and Theodorus
-Diodorus of Sicily, book I, pg,96,98.
Interesting to note both Plato and Pythagoras go on record as studying in Egypt. Notice also the names of two sculptors Telecles and Theodorus. interesting enough "Daedalus" is the name
Diodorus also wrote:
quote:now the Egyptians say that also after these events a great number of colonies were spread from Egypt over all the inhabited world....Even the Athenians, they say, are colonists from Sais in Egypt..Moreover, certain rulers of Athens were originally Egyptians, they say. Petes, for instance, the father of the Menestheus who took part in the expedition against troy, having clearly been an Egyptian...Erechtheus, also was by birth an Egyptian, became king of Athens
Diodorus I pg. 28-29
Thus clear evidence admittedly by a Greek, of direct contact from Egypt to early Greece in *post-prehistoric* I.E. bronze age periods, he went even further by accounting on how they colonized the region and set up a kingdom.
So now we have two accounts in Argos and Athens, of Egyptian participation and possible colonization of early Greece.
So now we are left to questions that would be asked in light of this.
1) Why would the Greeks build pyramids and where would they get this technology from at such as early period?
2) Why are words denoting the result of social complexity such as 'pyramid','paper','chemistry',and 'pharmacy' present in the Greek language in abundance?
3) Why would stories of Egyptian colonization persist in the accounts and legends of Greek writers?
4) Why are the Greeks shown to be genetic outliers even respective to the rest of the Mediterranean?
Logical deduction would necessitate that ancient Greece had obvious and significant contact and that significance should not be written off of downplayed but studied further. The real truth behind Greece might be hard to bear for some of our friends in the Eurocentric camp, as any evidence throwing light on the situation has been systematically ignored or vehemently attacked.
Rather than making blanket and rather uninformed statements like "there is no evidence Greece was colonized" or something like "Greek intellectuals considered Egypt just like every other foreign nation" actually examine the evidence and make balanced statements.
Posts: 426 | From: Cali-for-nia | Registered: Jan 2006
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Greece has been influenced both in Neolithic and classical times by "Near Eastern" and Nile Valley cultures.
quote:Originally posted by Obelisk_18:
That thing about the Benin HBS in Greece in interesting, could it be a result of the Arab Mediterranean slave trade, or something more ancient? What do studies say about this? get back to me. peace.
If the Benin HbS is found in coastal north Africa, "southwest Asia", and southern Europe, besides west Africa of course, but with southwest/southern Asian haplotype being rare in the said regions outside of Asia, what should that tell you? Matter of fact, besides the Benin HbS, there is also the Senegalese haplotype and the Bantu haplotype. Wouldn't either of these have also made it in any "Mediterranean slave trade", rather than just the Benin HbS? Think about these questions, if you will, and see what you can make out of them.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: (c) Clyde Winters 2004
Although Lefkowitz teaches classical studies her research methods leave a lot to be desired. She declares in Not Out of Africa that , "there is no archaeological data to support the notion that Egyptians migrated to Greece during the second millennium B.C. (or before that)" .
This statement is untrue. There is an abundance of evidence that the Egyptians had long settled many parts of ancient Greece.
In the ancient writings of the Greeks, the Egyptians were called Melampodes or "blackfeet". The Egyptians were also called Danaans in Greek history.
According to Hyainus in Fabula , and Appollonius, when the Danaans came to Greece they were called 'blackfeet'. This view is supported by the discovery of an inscribed stone in the Peloponnese that had Egyptian writing on it dating to the 5th Dynasty.
This short review of the Classical literature relating to the African identity of the Egyptians suggest that the views held by Lefkowitz in relation to an Egyptian presence in Egypt may not be correct.
Numerous archaeologist have found abundant evidence of Egyptians settled in Greece long before the coming of the Indo-European-Aryans to Anatolia.
Cecil Torr in Memphis and Mycenae; , discussed the inscriptions of Amemhotep found in a Mycenaean tomb at Ialysos in Rhodes and an 18th Dynasty scarab dating to the same period. As a result of the discovery of these artifacts Torr speculated that there were relations between Egypt and Greece between 1271 and 850 B.C.
The discovery of Torr was only the tip of the iceberg. Since the discovery of these artifacts in the 19th Century, archaeological evidence of Egyptians in Greece during the 2nd millennium has also been reported by J.D.S. Pendlebury, William A. Ward, and S.W. Manning .
Pendlebury provides a detailed discussion of the Egyptian material found at Laconia, Argolid, Thebes in Boeotia, and Athens. Pendlebury like Torr, believes that there were close relations between Greece and Egypt between the 12th and 7th centuries B.C.
Pendlebury's Aegyptiaca, has been excellently followed up by N. J. Skon Jedele, in her recent dissertation on Egyptian artifacts found in Greece. This dissertation provides even more examples of Egyptian artifacts found in Greece than those recorded by Pendlebury over sixty years ago.
Manning gives a well balanced discussion of the Egyptian material found in the Aegean area dating between the Old Kingdom and Dynasties 10 and ll. The work of Hankey and Warren indicate that there is archaeological evidence for Egyptians in ancient Greece, contrary to the false claims of Lefkowitz in Not Out of Africa.
The question must be asked, if there is this abundance of literature relating to an Egyptian role in ancient Greece, Why does Lefkowitz fail to discuss this literature? This question must be answered by Lefkowitz.
The failure of Lefkowitz to discuss this relevant knowledge base is inexcusable given her position at a prestigious Eastern University. The existence of a rich literature on the presence of Egyptians in ancient Greece makes Lefkowitz's claims about the ancient Greeks patently false.
The archaeological evidence supports the view that Greece, in many respects was an extention of Egypt.
End Notes
1. Lefkowitz, Not out of Africa, p.157.
2.Cecil Torr, Memphis and Mycenae, (London: Cambridge University Press, 1896) p.61.
3.Ibid., pp.64-65.
4. J.D.S. Pendlebury, Aegyptica: A catalogue of Egyptian objects in the Aegean Area, Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. 1930.
5. William W. Ward, Egypt and the Mediterranean World 2200- 1900 B.C., Beirut: American University of Beirut. 1971.
6. S.W. Manning, The absolute chronology of the Aegean Early Bronze Age, Sheffield: Sheffield Academic Press.
Martin Bernal talks of the etymology of Danaan in the 10th Chapter of Black Athena Volume 2. He makes no mention of "blackfeet." But we have to remember not to make large leaps in assumption based on one referance. He mentions how there is a widespread cluster of ethnic names that are all related...Tin3y, Tanaya, D3-in, Dene, Denyen, Danuna, Danaan, Danaos and Dan - occuring in Egyptian, Akkadian, Canaanite, and Greek. He doesn't make it perfectly clear where he stands, but he seems to lean to a Semitic origin based on various things (pages 418-423). He says, "by the 15th century BC Danaoi had become a common name for the people we should call Mycenaeans and, as Dnnym and Dan, this spread to Cilicia and Palestine during the invasions of the Sea Peoples. However, despite the uncertainty of this hypothesis, there is virtually no doubt that when Egyptians used the ethnic names Tin3y, Tanaya, D3-in, Dene and Denyen, they were referring to Greeks."
Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Tyrannosaurus: Calling Ancient Greece "Middle-" or "Near Eastern", while perhaps good for stimulating controversy, is probably not wise, as the concept of the "Near East" is somewhat nebulous and unscientific to begin with. What can be said, however, is that Greek culture was a mixture of indigenous Southeast European, Southwest Asian, and Northeast African influences, a natural consequence of its crossroads-like geographic position.
I'm fairly familiar with Egyptian influence on Greek culture, but I am more interested in Southwest Asian influences. Considering Greece is closer geographically to Southwest Asia, we would expect even greater cultural and genetic ties, yet Egyptian influences seem to generate more press (perhaps because of their greater blackness).
Man, there are tons of things that show a Greek/Levant connection. To just name a few, there are Sumerian and Semitic origins of the legendary Herakles (as well as Egyptian). Bernal throws both theories around, but seems to lean more toward an Egyptian origin. There is also strong evidence that Boiotia and parts of the Peloponnese recieved much cultural influence from Egypt and the Semitic-speaking Levant during the Bronze Age through toponyms, religious cults and local traditions. The Kas shipwreck, which is a clear archeological indicator of Levantine economic penetration into the Aegean.
You can also look to the legend of Kadmos, the founder of Thebes (who in ancient times was thought to have come from Pheonocia). In Chapter 2 of Black Athena Vol. 2, Bernal shows how the name Kadmos comes from the West Semitic qdm, 'Easterner' and 'ancient one'. This is also shown in the derivation of Europa, the name of Kadmos' sister, from the Semitic <rb (west of evening). This is portrayed in a Greek myth where Zues turns himself into a bull and persuades Europa to ride on his back...carrying her off to Crete and the West. Europa's brothers, Kadmos and Phoinix and others persue their sister, but to no avail. However, they settled down and built cities at various places, all of which later had associations with Phoenicians...the most notable being Kadmos' establishment of Thebes. There is a Greek tragedy written by Euripides about the decline and fall of Thebes called The Pheonician Women. In a certain part of it, the chorus cries...
From the Tyrian seacoast, From an island of Pheonicia, I have come... But now raging war, Stands at this city's ramparts, With a blaze of blood. Threatening death to Thebes, which God forbid! Friend suffers with friend, If these seven towers should fall, Our country too is struck to the heart, We and they are one family, Descended alike from Io; Their fate, then, is ours too.
Then later...
When Kadmos came from Pheonicia to this country An untamed heifer bounded before him... You too Epaphos son of Zues, Born long ago to Io our ancestress, I invoke with a song of the east, With prayers in the Pheonician tongue: For you Thebes was founded by your descendents...
Even though Bernal doesn't FULLY believe in any Egyptian or Phoenician (Levantine) colonization or conquest due to various reasons, he says, "...the depth of plausible Semitic and Egyptian cultic and linguistic influence and the strength of the tradition of the settlement of Kadmos the Phoenician are overwhelming...the difficulties in proposing any later colonizations and the intricate legendary links between Kadmos and Danaos and the Hyksos make the end of the Middle Bronze Age the only possible time for the Kadmean arrival."
I could go on and on...but like I said...the evidence is clearly there.
Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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^ That does not seem to be solid proof of a Greek-Egyptian connection. Geometric shapes were the most common designs in the ancient world. Plus, white linen was also a common cloth used in the ancient world especially by peoples who lived in hot or sunny countries. Also Egyptian women tended to wear thiner layers of linen that were more 'see-through' compared to the thicker kind worn by Greek women who even had to veil themselves.
And to answer your earlier responses, if you are speaking of the Ptolemic dynasty of Greece as being Greeks who adopted Egyptian culture it was only Cleopatra who did so. The other Ptolemies were pretty much no different from many European colonists after them in which they simply ruled the country but never bothered with even learning the language of the people they ruled let alone adopting their culture. Also Greek Classical philosophy was developed by those philosophers. We have no evidence that it was somehow taken or borrowed from any other culture. Most or pretty much all Classical philosophies were the ideas of those individuals.
quote:Originally posted by Obelisk_18: That thing about the Benin HBS in Greece in interesting, could it be a result of the Arab Mediterranean slave trade, or something more ancient? What do studies say about this? get back to me. peace.
The studies show or rather date the presence of Benin HBS in southern Europe to Neolithic times and has nothing to do with any African slave trade by Arabs. African slaves owned by Arabs lived in Arab or Arabized countries. Southern Europe, especially Greece was not one of these countries. Also, as Mystery pointed out, other sickle cell haplotypes should be present also as the slave trade included and actually mostly consisted of Bantu peoples from the coasts of East Africa!
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Tyrannosaurus: Calling Ancient Greece "Middle-" or "Near Eastern", while perhaps good for stimulating controversy, is probably not wise, as the concept of the "Near East" is somewhat nebulous and unscientific to begin with. What can be said, however, is that Greek culture was a mixture of indigenous Southeast European, Southwest Asian, and Northeast African influences, a natural consequence of its crossroads-like geographic position.
You are right about the phrase 'Near East'; however, such a phrase is still in use. And well, one good turn deserves another. If Egypt is called 'Near Eastern' despite the fact that it's culture is entirely if not predominantly indigenous to Africa and so are its people, why is not Greece called 'Near Eastern' even though its some of its culture and people is the result of movements from Asia?
quote:I'm fairly familiar with Egyptian influence on Greek culture, but I am more interested in Southwest Asian influences. Considering Greece is closer geographically to Southwest Asia, we would expect even greater cultural and genetic ties, yet Egyptian influences seem to generate more press (perhaps because of their greater blackness).
^ I agree, but if one were to study ancient Western Asian culture particularly that of ancient Anatolia one would see that alot of ancient Greek features are 'Near Eastern' in nature.
The Greeks for example have certain codes of honor like for example, Xenia which entitles hospitality to strangers. There were other codes of honor like for women which ensures modesty and piousness. I don't know if you knew this but ancient Greek society including many of their myths had 'honor killings' and blood vendettas between families of the same kind you see today in Middle Eastern countries. Ancient Greek myths have vestiges of goddess worship very similar to those of the Near-East. Their myths also feature male deities who follow a pattern of succession through violent overthrows. The Greeks had similar religious rituals like purification, or burnt sacrifices. The Greeks also had beliefs in things like the 'evil eye', etc. etc.
I myself am learning more and more how West Asian in culture Greece really was.
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ That does not seem to be solid proof of a Greek-Egyptian connection. Geometric shapes were the most common designs in the ancient world. Plus, white linen was also a common cloth used in the ancient world especially by peoples who lived in hot or sunny countries.
And to answer your earlier responses, if you are speaking of the Ptolemic dynasty of Greece as being Greeks who adopted Egyptian culture it was only Cleopatra who did so. The other Ptolemies were pretty much no different from many European colonists after them in which they simply ruled the country but never bothered with even learning the language of the people they ruled let alone adopting their culture. Also Greek Classical philosophy was developed by those philosophers. We have no evidence that it was somehow taken or borrowed from any other culture. Most or pretty much all Classical philosophies were the ideas of those individuals.
Actually, while many Greeks were colonists, they paid a lot of attention to tradition and culture. Remember many of the temples that were built by the Ptolomies in the South of Egypt? The Temple of Isis at Philae and the Temple of Horus at Edfu are but two examples of the Greek and Roman maintenance of some of the older traditions from Egypt. Edfu and Philae are quite far from Alexandria and it therefore makes it clear that the Greeks were not simply colonizers with no interest in the culture and history of the 2500 year old civilization they had conquered. That is a pure myth.
As for philosophy, I have a problem with the definition of philosophy in the first place. Meaning everyone tends to define philosophy in terms of the way the Greeks thought. Well, sorry, but if you want to be technical about it, the Greeks were NOT the first to practice thinking about the world around us and our place in it. It is obvious that the Egyptians understood the power and importance of thinking in the act of creation and everyday life in the material world. The PROBLEM becomes that the Egyptians did not represent their THOUGHTS and IDEAS in the way the Greeks did. So they get no credit for philosophy, which, in my definition, is the study of thinking itself and how various ways of thinking affect how one deals with the world around them. In that sense, of course the Greeks did not invent philosophy and many of the ideas that they get credit for are not new, in so much as they are presented in such a way that others who are NOT Greek can understand and gain insight into what they were writing about. But, even with that, it is hard to compare a culture which left hundreds of books and very little stone monuments to a culture with little surviving written work on papyrus but PLENTY of monuments, which therefore gives one culture an advantage in terms of availability of documentation with wich to understand their WAY OF THINKING or philosophy.
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That thing about the Benin HBS in Greece in interesting, could it be a result of the Arab Mediterranean slave trade, or something more ancient? What do studies say about this? get back to me. peace.
Benin Haplotype was carried from its location to outside Europe by the inhabitants but it does not necessarily mean slavery! Yes, slavery is the most recent tool and carrier but that marker is important to solidify the preponderance of Africa into SE Asia. It would also mean there were multiple migrations for the gene to show up where it does now (Greece, Turkey, some Caucasian republics) Spain, Portugal, and Sicily)
That thing about the Benin HBS in Greece in interesting, could it be a result of the Arab Mediterranean slave trade, or something more ancient? What do studies say about this? get back to me. peace.
Benin Haplotype was carried from its location to outside Europe by the inhabitants but it does not necessarily mean slavery!
Okay, but then you go onto say...
quote:yazid904:
Yes, slavery is the most recent tool and carrier but that marker is important to solidify the preponderance of Africa into SE Asia.
What are you going by, when you proclaim slavery as being the most recent tool and carrier, if as you've already acknowledged(?), that the Benin haplotype cannot correspond with the relatively recent history of slavery?
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Sep 2005
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......who could forget the calender systems, use of papyrus, aspects of architecture, or the writing systems from proto-Sinaitic [used by classical Greeks, not by their predecessors like the Minoans, whose own writing system has been proclaimed to have had influences from Egyptian hieroglyphics]: Dissidents won't like THISPosts: 1947 | Registered: Sep 2005
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Yazid, Benin HBS in those regions (Greece, Turkey etc) has been dated to the Neolithic times, and so have HLA genes, and Y-chromosomal markers (E3b1).
Ironically, Western scholars upon finding out about all of this did indeed try to attribute it to some kind of "Neolithic Mediterranean slave trade" [sic]. Despite the fact that these African lineages are predominantly male ( unless someone can explain some form of male slavery owned by slave mistresses (?)); however, there has been NO evidence whatsoever of any such event either archaeologically or historically (including legends or even oral traditions) from the Greeks themselves! On the contrary we have evidence of voluntary migrations in the form of population expansions from Northeast Africa into West Asia and from those areas into Greece and that these populations introduced Neolithic culture.
Even before genetics we had evidence from physical anthropology of the presence of people in the Greek peninsula whom Western anthropologists themselves labeled "negroid" features:
Larry Angel (1972): "one can identify Negroid traits of nose and prognathism appearing in Natufian latest hunters.(McCown, 1939) and in Anatolian and Macedonian first farmers, probably from Nubia via the predecesors of the Badarians and Tasians..."
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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On an additional note: It is of no coincidence that the other African haplotypes outside of the Benin haplotype, have found their way into the Americas, regions that have been affected by the historic slave trade:
From these original foci of the HbS mutation, the gene spread along trading routes to North Africa and the Mediterranean, was transported in large populations to North and South America and the Caribbean during the slave trade, and latterly has spread to Northern Europe by immigration from the Caribbean, directly from Africa to the United Kingdom, France, Belgium, and Holland, and from Turkey to Germany. The relative prevalence of these haplotypes in the Americas reflects the different origins of their African peoples, approximately 70% of HbS associated chromosomes having the Benin haplotype, 10% Senegal and 10% Bantu. Haplotype frequencies in Jamaica are similar to the USA but the Bantu haplotype accounts for the majority of HbS associated chromosomes in Brazil.9 - Graham R. Serjeant, MD, FRCP, MRC Laboratories (Jamaica), University of the West Indies, Kingston.
...in contrast to...
The Benin haplotype accounts for HbS associated chromosomes in Sicily,4 Northern Greece,10 Southern Turkey,11 and South West Saudi Arabia,6,7 suggesting that these genes had their origin in West Africa. The Asian haplotype is rarely encountered outside its geographic origin because there have been few large population movements and Indian emigrants have been predominantly from non HbS containing populations. However, it is of interest that the Asian haplotype was first described among descendants of Indian indentured laborers in Jamaica.12 - Graham R. Serjeant, MD, FRCP, MRC Laboratories (Jamaica), University of the West Indies, Kingston.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Sep 2005
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Yazid, Benin HBS in those regions (Greece, Turkey etc) has been dated to the Neolithic times, and so have HLA genes, and Y-chromosomal markers (E3b1).
Ironically, Western scholars upon finding out about all of this did indeed try to attribute it to some kind of "Neolithic Mediterranean slave trade" [sic]. Despite the fact that these African lineages are predominantly male ( unless someone can explain some form of male slavery owned by slave mistresses (?)); however, there has been NO evidence whatsoever of any such event either archaeologically or historically (including legends or even oral traditions) from the Greeks themselves! On the contrary we have evidence of voluntary migrations in the form of population expansions from Northeast Africa into West Asia and from those areas into Greece and that these populations introduced Neolithic culture.
Even before genetics we had evidence from physical anthropology of the presence of people in the Greek peninsula whom Western anthropologists themselves labeled "negroid" features:
Larry Angel (1972): "one can identify Negroid traits of nose and prognathism appearing in Natufian latest hunters.(McCown, 1939) and in Anatolian and Macedonian first farmers, probably from Nubia via the predecesors of the Badarians and Tasians..."
So my man, tell me what study says that the presence of Benin Hbs in the middle east is from the neolithic? a specific study. get back to me. peace...
Posts: 447 | From: Somewhere son... | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:Originally posted by King_Scorpion: Can you tell me more about Benin HBS and if it's possible to know WHEN it first appeared in Greece?
There are four sickle cell haplotypes: Benin HBS, Bantu HBS, Senegal, and an Asian haplotype in Arabia and India. Each one named after the area of origin.
Benin HBS originated in the Benin area of Africa, but it's presence elsewhere can only be attributed to migrations or expansions through the Sahara when it was once fertile. This is the reason why not only why Egyptians carry it but even Greece and Turkey which correspond the Neolithic expansions into Western Asia and into Europe.
quote:Originally posted by Obelisk_18: So my man, tell me what study says that the presence of Benin Hbs in the middle east is from the neolithic? a specific study. get back to me. peace...
I believe the exact study was presented before by Mystery or Rasol so you can ask them.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: where did this map come from?
Ask Rasol, since I got the map from him. By the way, notice that India and Arabia have their own unique sickle cell haplotype that has NOTHING to do with Africans, even West Africans let alone 'Mande'. Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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So my man, tell me what study says that the presence of Benin Hbs in the middle east is from the neolithic? a specific study. get back to me. peace...
I believe the exact study was presented before by Mystery or Rasol so you can ask them.
This has been hinted on in my last post here, which Obelisk apparently took it upon himself not to pay attention to. Does Obelisk have material to suggest that Benin haplotype in "Near East" isn't ancient, perhaps even prehistoric?
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Sep 2005
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^This map from the link [notwithstanding which has some interesting insights therein outside the issue of malarial disease and natural immuno-mechanisms developed to address them] Djehuti posted, is inaccurate about the expanse of African HbS. HbS [Benin haplotype] has been well documented in Egypt, which this [dated] map doesn't show, not to mention smaller incidences in the greater part of Europe, but notable presence in southern European regions like Italy and Greece.
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unless someone can explain some form of male slavery owned by slave mistresses (?)); however, there has been NO evidence whatsoever of any such event either archaeologically or historically (including legends or even oral traditions) from the Greeks themselves! On the contrary we have evidence of voluntary migrations in the form of population expansions from Northeast Africa into West Asia and from those areas into Greece and that these populations introduced Neolithic culture. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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