posted
^ But of course he won't be back with anything valid especially not after what he wrote in his very first post that I missed!
quote:Originally posted by osiriun: Please non-inflammatory view points only and please no name calling. Also, please don't give strawmans such as - they had red hair and narrow noses since evolution being what it is can produce those variation in situ North Africa.
Red hair is not a typical African trait and the only ones with red hair in north Africa are white Berber groups like Kabyle and Rifians who have nothing to do with Egypt.
quote:West Africans split from the Nilotic people of East Africa well before the first dynasty. Fact, African American heritage does not include Egypt. Posters should not have an emotional bias in this discussion since it is not based on the defunct racist terms of Black and White. Fact, what most people consider to be European (English, German, Swedes, etc) are significantly differentiated from Egyptians in the same way most (not all) West Africans are. West Europeans split from a common Egyptian ancestor some 20years before the 1 dynasty.
^ West European ancestry originated in Egypt 20 years before the first dynasty?! ROTFL
So much for unbias objectivity! Posts: 26243 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ But of course he won't be back with anything valid especially not after what he wrote in his very first post that I missed!
quote:Originally posted by osiriun: Please non-inflammatory view points only and please no name calling. Also, please don't give strawmans such as - they had red hair and narrow noses since evolution being what it is can produce those variation in situ North Africa.
Red hair is not a typical African trait and the only ones with red hair in north Africa are white Berber groups like Kabyle and Rifians who have nothing to do with Egypt.
quote:West Africans split from the Nilotic people of East Africa well before the first dynasty. Fact, African American heritage does not include Egypt. Posters should not have an emotional bias in this discussion since it is not based on the defunct racist terms of Black and White. Fact, what most people consider to be European (English, German, Swedes, etc) are significantly differentiated from Egyptians in the same way most (not all) West Africans are. West Europeans split from a common Egyptian ancestor some 20years before the 1 dynasty.
^ West European ancestry originated in Egypt 20 years before the first dynasty?! ROTFL
So much for unbias objectivity!
I meant 20K years. As for Red Hair or Blond Hair, I believe if that there was to be found Africans with such hair it is not proof of European gene flow in and of itself.
Posts: 154 | From: Seattle Washington | Registered: Oct 2007
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quote:Originally posted by osiriun: I meant 20K years..
Where did you hear that West Europeans diverged from an Egyptian ancestor 20,000 years ago??
quote:..As for Red Hair or Blond Hair, I believe if that there was to be found Africans with such hair it is not proof of European gene flow in and of itself.
Yes, but there are two plausable reasons why red and blonde hair is found: Either the embalming chemicals from mummification have altered the hair, or the Egyptians simply dyed their hair that color before they died. Egyptologists state that many Egyptians during their old age would dye their gray hairs red using henna (a practice still common in parts of Africa today). Ramses died at an unsual very old age so...
Posts: 26243 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by osiriun: I meant 20K years..
Where did you hear that West Europeans diverged from an Egyptian ancestor 20,000 years ago??
quote:..As for Red Hair or Blond Hair, I believe if that there was to be found Africans with such hair it is not proof of European gene flow in and of itself.
Yes, but there are two plausable reasons why red and blonde hair is found: Either the embalming chemicals from mummification have altered the hair, or the Egyptians simply dyed their hair that color before they died. Egyptologists state that many Egyptians during their old age would dye their gray hairs red using henna (a practice still common in parts of Africa today). Ramses died at an unsual very old age so...
I am not talking about mummies. I am talking about pictures showing blonde or red heads. Also of Africans with the same but genetics showing that they are indigenous.
Posts: 154 | From: Seattle Washington | Registered: Oct 2007
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^ Funny, I have seen hundreds of tomb paintings and portraits from Egypt and non showing any 'blondes' or 'red-heads'. Care to post these pictures you've seen here?
Posts: 26243 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by osiriun: It seems rather important to you to qualify them as "Black" Africans. Does this mean that elements that are non-Black are ignored and therefore there is bias in your research on the subject?
We have to qualify them as Indigenous Black Africans because of people coming with White, Nordic, Caucasian, Mediterranean, Eurasian, Arab, mixed nonsense similar to you. The AE were clearly stated to be blacks by them self, the Greeks, the Romans, and many other sources. Some people have chosen to confuse, ignore, or forget in the last couple of hundred years.
quote:Originally posted by osiriun: What I meant: Obviously Rasol needed to qualify the type of Africans because there are non-Black Africans or else Africans would suffice alone. Europeans do not need to qualify themselves or their heritage as White Europeans since it has largely been assumed to be a given (ah but genetics - complicated matter now). If there are non-Black Africans then the question is from where do they originate and how long ago and are they really African? I presume that non-Black Africans are the result of migrations from the Levant and more recent Greek and Roman influence. These recent migrants are not African.
What difference does it make of who migrated into Ancient Egypt. The civilization was already founded by Indigenous Black Africans. Greece is the first acknowledged white civilization and the Greeks had admixture. By the time the Greeks migrated to Egypt the civilization was already thousands of year old and still an Indigenous Black African civilization. Even according to the Bible, by the time the Hebrews migrated to Egypt the Ancient Egyptians were already a civilization and this is before the Greeks.
quote:Originally posted by osiriun: There were certainly non-Black Africans in Egypt, however, if you put a great deal of importance on the Blackness of Egypt the question is naturally what about the non-Black influences. It is similar to calling the United States a White Civilization. Would not Black Americans balk at such a generalization? Certainly the United States was originally a White dominated society but that has changed over a significant amount of time. What I find difficult in discussion with AA on the issue of AE is that they seem to think that a multi-cultural/multi-ethnic Egypt somehow takes away from their contribution to the formation of one of the greatest civilizations. I think that is ludicrous since even Greece owes a great deal to Near Eastern influence including some African ones.
Doesn’t matter. Before America was a white civilization it was a Native American Civilization. America is considered a white civilization and black people aren’t balking. However many white people have a problem with AE being an Indigenous Black African Civilization. Why is that? Since Greece and Rome owes a great deal of influence to the Near East and Africans may be you should have the historians correct history. Good luck.
quote:Originally posted by osiriun: Blacks apparently do not like to be called Black anymore. Isn't African American much more appropriate for their ethnicity? If Blacks do not like to be called Blacks is it any wonder that many people of mixed ancestry such as the modern day Egyptians do not either?
Not true. I am a black man and like being called a black man. Modern day Egyptians are many people from Arab to indigenous Beja. You know the negative context that has been applied to being black. That is why many people don’t want to be labeled black. Don’t play dumb.
quote:Originally posted by osiriun: Anyone can see that its a unique and indigenous civilization but there was trade. All EVIDENCE must be considered and treated with equal important regardless of their ORIGIN. This is a scientific pursuit.
Doesn’t matter again. The Greeks and the Romans had trade. Does that make them less white? However pursue away in your scientific pursuit.
quote:Originally posted by osiriun: Since no one wants to help me find the truth of how much Mesopatamian influence there was in the Nagada periods I will continue to look and post it here and you can then rebut it all you want and further increase my knowledge on the subject. Your insults mean nothing to me - I have no emotional investment whatsoever.
Obviously you do have some emotion investment in it or you would waste as much time pursuing it. All evidence has been presented to you and you choose to ignore it. While you are at it you may want to find the Egyptian influence on Mesopotamia.
quote:Originally posted by osiriun: Right. Then I will be back with clear supporting evidence.
As Sundiata stated: We are still waiting and you are losing credibility. However, I doubt you have much left and people will start to ignore you.
Posts: 342 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Funny, I have seen hundreds of tomb paintings and portraits from Egypt and non showing any 'blondes' or 'red-heads'. Care to post these pictures you've seen here?
Actually there are a few. Ask Rasol.
Posts: 154 | From: Seattle Washington | Registered: Oct 2007
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quote:Originally posted by osiriun: It seems rather important to you to qualify them as "Black" Africans. Does this mean that elements that are non-Black are ignored and therefore there is bias in your research on the subject?
We have to qualify them as Indigenous Black Africans because of people coming with White, Nordic, Caucasian, Mediterranean, Eurasian, Arab, mixed nonsense similar to you. The AE were clearly stated to be blacks by them self, the Greeks, the Romans, and many other sources. Some people have chosen to confuse, ignore, or forget in the last couple of hundred years.
quote:Originally posted by osiriun: What I meant: Obviously Rasol needed to qualify the type of Africans because there are non-Black Africans or else Africans would suffice alone. Europeans do not need to qualify themselves or their heritage as White Europeans since it has largely been assumed to be a given (ah but genetics - complicated matter now). If there are non-Black Africans then the question is from where do they originate and how long ago and are they really African? I presume that non-Black Africans are the result of migrations from the Levant and more recent Greek and Roman influence. These recent migrants are not African.
What difference does it make of who migrated into Ancient Egypt. The civilization was already founded by Indigenous Black Africans. Greece is the first acknowledged white civilization and the Greeks had admixture. By the time the Greeks migrated to Egypt the civilization was already thousands of year old and still an Indigenous Black African civilization. Even according to the Bible, by the time the Hebrews migrated to Egypt the Ancient Egyptians were already a civilization and this is before the Greeks.
quote:Originally posted by osiriun: There were certainly non-Black Africans in Egypt, however, if you put a great deal of importance on the Blackness of Egypt the question is naturally what about the non-Black influences. It is similar to calling the United States a White Civilization. Would not Black Americans balk at such a generalization? Certainly the United States was originally a White dominated society but that has changed over a significant amount of time. What I find difficult in discussion with AA on the issue of AE is that they seem to think that a multi-cultural/multi-ethnic Egypt somehow takes away from their contribution to the formation of one of the greatest civilizations. I think that is ludicrous since even Greece owes a great deal to Near Eastern influence including some African ones.
Doesn’t matter. Before America was a white civilization it was a Native American Civilization. America is considered a white civilization and black people aren’t balking. However many white people have a problem with AE being an Indigenous Black African Civilization. Why is that? Since Greece and Rome owes a great deal of influence to the Near East and Africans may be you should have the historians correct history. Good luck.
quote:Originally posted by osiriun: Blacks apparently do not like to be called Black anymore. Isn't African American much more appropriate for their ethnicity? If Blacks do not like to be called Blacks is it any wonder that many people of mixed ancestry such as the modern day Egyptians do not either?
Not true. I am a black man and like being called a black man. Modern day Egyptians are many people from Arab to indigenous Beja. You know the negative context that has been applied to being black. That is why many people don’t want to be labeled black. Don’t play dumb.
quote:Originally posted by osiriun: Anyone can see that its a unique and indigenous civilization but there was trade. All EVIDENCE must be considered and treated with equal important regardless of their ORIGIN. This is a scientific pursuit.
Doesn’t matter again. The Greeks and the Romans had trade. Does that make them less white? However pursue away in your scientific pursuit.
quote:Originally posted by osiriun: Since no one wants to help me find the truth of how much Mesopatamian influence there was in the Nagada periods I will continue to look and post it here and you can then rebut it all you want and further increase my knowledge on the subject. Your insults mean nothing to me - I have no emotional investment whatsoever.
Obviously you do have some emotion investment in it or you would waste as much time pursuing it. All evidence has been presented to you and you choose to ignore it. While you are at it you may want to find the Egyptian influence on Mesopotamia.
quote:Originally posted by osiriun: Right. Then I will be back with clear supporting evidence.
As Sundiata stated: We are still waiting and you are losing credibility. However, I doubt you have much left and people will start to ignore you.
Mixed nonesense? And who exactly isn't?
Which is my point! Though I was say the my heritage is far less obscure than most.
Posts: 154 | From: Seattle Washington | Registered: Oct 2007
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quote:Originally posted by osiriun: It seems rather important to you to qualify them as "Black" Africans. Does this mean that elements that are non-Black are ignored and therefore there is bias in your research on the subject?
We have to qualify them as Indigenous Black Africans because of people coming with White, Nordic, Caucasian, Mediterranean, Eurasian, Arab, mixed nonsense similar to you. The AE were clearly stated to be blacks by them self, the Greeks, the Romans, and many other sources. Some people have chosen to confuse, ignore, or forget in the last couple of hundred years.
quote:Originally posted by osiriun: What I meant: Obviously Rasol needed to qualify the type of Africans because there are non-Black Africans or else Africans would suffice alone. Europeans do not need to qualify themselves or their heritage as White Europeans since it has largely been assumed to be a given (ah but genetics - complicated matter now). If there are non-Black Africans then the question is from where do they originate and how long ago and are they really African? I presume that non-Black Africans are the result of migrations from the Levant and more recent Greek and Roman influence. These recent migrants are not African.
What difference does it make of who migrated into Ancient Egypt. The civilization was already founded by Indigenous Black Africans. Greece is the first acknowledged white civilization and the Greeks had admixture. By the time the Greeks migrated to Egypt the civilization was already thousands of year old and still an Indigenous Black African civilization. Even according to the Bible, by the time the Hebrews migrated to Egypt the Ancient Egyptians were already a civilization and this is before the Greeks.
quote:Originally posted by osiriun: There were certainly non-Black Africans in Egypt, however, if you put a great deal of importance on the Blackness of Egypt the question is naturally what about the non-Black influences. It is similar to calling the United States a White Civilization. Would not Black Americans balk at such a generalization? Certainly the United States was originally a White dominated society but that has changed over a significant amount of time. What I find difficult in discussion with AA on the issue of AE is that they seem to think that a multi-cultural/multi-ethnic Egypt somehow takes away from their contribution to the formation of one of the greatest civilizations. I think that is ludicrous since even Greece owes a great deal to Near Eastern influence including some African ones.
Doesn’t matter. Before America was a white civilization it was a Native American Civilization. America is considered a white civilization and black people aren’t balking. However many white people have a problem with AE being an Indigenous Black African Civilization. Why is that? Since Greece and Rome owes a great deal of influence to the Near East and Africans may be you should have the historians correct history. Good luck.
quote:Originally posted by osiriun: Blacks apparently do not like to be called Black anymore. Isn't African American much more appropriate for their ethnicity? If Blacks do not like to be called Blacks is it any wonder that many people of mixed ancestry such as the modern day Egyptians do not either?
Not true. I am a black man and like being called a black man. Modern day Egyptians are many people from Arab to indigenous Beja. You know the negative context that has been applied to being black. That is why many people don’t want to be labeled black. Don’t play dumb.
quote:Originally posted by osiriun: Anyone can see that its a unique and indigenous civilization but there was trade. All EVIDENCE must be considered and treated with equal important regardless of their ORIGIN. This is a scientific pursuit.
Doesn’t matter again. The Greeks and the Romans had trade. Does that make them less white? However pursue away in your scientific pursuit.
quote:Originally posted by osiriun: Since no one wants to help me find the truth of how much Mesopatamian influence there was in the Nagada periods I will continue to look and post it here and you can then rebut it all you want and further increase my knowledge on the subject. Your insults mean nothing to me - I have no emotional investment whatsoever.
Obviously you do have some emotion investment in it or you would waste as much time pursuing it. All evidence has been presented to you and you choose to ignore it. While you are at it you may want to find the Egyptian influence on Mesopotamia.
quote:Originally posted by osiriun: Right. Then I will be back with clear supporting evidence.
As Sundiata stated: We are still waiting and you are losing credibility. However, I doubt you have much left and people will start to ignore you.
Mixed nonesense? And who exactly isn't?
Which is my point! Though I would say the my heritage is far less obscure than most.
Posts: 154 | From: Seattle Washington | Registered: Oct 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Funny, I have seen hundreds of tomb paintings and portraits from Egypt and non showing any 'blondes' or 'red-heads'. Care to post these pictures you've seen here?
Actually there are a few. Ask Rasol.
^^osiriun .. I can assure you that if you continue to make claims with out backing them up, you will inevitably lose credibility here and ultimately be ignored and/or ridiculed for your stubborn and foolish insistence on making unsubstantiated claims. Please post the picture/s as you were requested to do, or simply refrain from making such claims. It is really annoying. I for one, am on the verge of ignoring you completely. You seem to be very unsure, wishy washy, clueless, and stubborn. As indicated by a statement that you made in another thread, your emphasis on Mesopotamia is explained.
quote:Originally posted by osiriun: I think Black is fine. After some consideration, if Europeans can claim Greece as a completely White society then Egypt should be referred to as Black. I don't know where that leaves Eurasians though. Seems like we don't get credit for anything anymore.
^It is obvious that your apparent search for "credit" is what fuels your bias, therefore it seems that you may in fact need a psychologist more so than a history lesson. Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by osiriun: Actually there are a few. Ask Rasol.
LOL I'm asking YOU since you were the one who claimed to see such pictures of red-head and blonde Egyptians! Care to post pictures of these or explain where or what tomb these pictures come from?! Posts: 26243 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by osiriun: Actually there are a few. Ask Rasol.
LOL I'm asking YOU since you were the one who claimed to see such pictures of red-head and blonde Egyptians! Care to post pictures of these or explain where or what tomb these pictures come from?!
Rasol posted some pictures several years ago. I don't have them anymore.
Posts: 154 | From: Seattle Washington | Registered: Oct 2007
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At least I believe it was Rasol. It was pictures of what looked like Red Heads and a picture of a Blonde Egyptian. Looked like a Blonde Afro to me.
Posts: 154 | From: Seattle Washington | Registered: Oct 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Funny, I have seen hundreds of tomb paintings and portraits from Egypt and non showing any 'blondes' or 'red-heads'. Care to post these pictures you've seen here?
Actually there are a few. Ask Rasol.
^^osiriun .. I can assure you that if you continue to make claims with out backing them up, you will inevitably lose credibility here and ultimately be ignored and/or ridiculed for your stubborn and foolish insistence on making unsubstantiated claims. Please post the picture/s as you were requested to do, or simply refrain from making such claims. It is really annoying. I for one, am on the verge of ignoring you completely. You seem to be very unsure, wishy washy, clueless, and stubborn. As indicated by a statement that you made in another thread, your emphasis on Mesopotamia is explained.
quote:Originally posted by osiriun: I think Black is fine. After some consideration, if Europeans can claim Greece as a completely White society then Egypt should be referred to as Black. I don't know where that leaves Eurasians though. Seems like we don't get credit for anything anymore.
^It is obvious that your apparent search for "credit" is what fuels your bias, therefore it seems that you may in fact need a psychologist more so than a history lesson.
Don't be silly. Fact is that I am very aware of who the Egyptians are and are not.
Posts: 154 | From: Seattle Washington | Registered: Oct 2007
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^Ok osiriun, I'm glad that you are.. So now what is the use for this thread? Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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I wanted to see if anyone really has the nerve to suggest that the Egyptians are not African.
Its was SARCASM!
But for AAs like yourself, if you want to meet someone that is directly descendent of AE then just go to Upper Egypt and find a Fellahin farmer(peasant). Its not that difficult. If you want to meet a Nubian, fine, they still exist take a trip. I really don't know why Europeans think its necessary to reconstruct Egyptians in their own likeness, it is completely transparent to everyone how foolish they are being (except to themselves). Just think, why reconstruct Tutankahmun when we have the gold mask and hundreds of depictions of him. All really rather stupid.
But I still wonder, just how much influence came from the Mesopatamian region into Egypt. Not that it would change much of anything but for someone like me it is interesting to discuss.
From my understanding it certainly wasn't a dynastic race but a group of people suffering from drought that moved into the delta searching for good grazing land. They didn't conquer anyone they did become part of the early Egyptian society but they were more like migrant workers. Shared knowledge, sure, but obviously nothing sophisticated which is clearly evident by how Egyptians write. If Mesopatamians had a significant influence on pre-dynastic Egyptians they we wouldn't see hieroglyphs would we? Why wouldn't they have brought their written language with them from Mesopatamia? Obviously contact was minor and those people absurbed into the society.
Posts: 154 | From: Seattle Washington | Registered: Oct 2007
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^ I suspected as much. Welcome back! Though I still would like to see these pics of "blonde" and "red-head" Egyptians.
Posts: 26243 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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West European ancestry originated in Egypt 20 years before the first dynasty?! ROTFL ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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