Title: History in Black : African Americans in Search of an Ancient Past
Author: Yaacov Shavit , Jacob Shavit
The development of Afrocentric historical writing is explored in this study which traces this recording of history from the Hellenistic-Roman period to the 19th century. Afrocentric writers are depicted as searching for the unique primary source of "culture" from one period to the next. Such passing on of cultural traits from the "ancient model" from the classical period to the origin of culture in Egypt and Africa is shown as being a product purely of creative history.
Posts: 315 | From: Deep Earth | Registered: Feb 2007
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^ The problem is when Afrocentric scholars repeat the same fallacies of the Eurocentric scholars they are against. In this case, Eurocentric Doctrine #5:
PASSING OF THE TORCH DOCTRINE: Claims a chain of cultural transmission from Mesopotamia and Egypt to Greece to Rome to western Europe to the USA, leaving vast gaps where the history of the rest of the world should be. (And the discussion never returns to Egypt or Iraq to consider what happened there after the fall of their ancient empires.) Most of the planet's cultures are discussed only in relation to the European conquest, if mentioned at all. As a result, few people have any idea of the history of Sumatra, Honduras, Niger, Ecuador, Mozambique, Ohio, Hokkaido, Samoa, or even European countries such as Lithuania or Bosnia.
However, it is well established that the roots of Greek and even Roman civilization ultimately come from the Neolithic cultures of Asia and even Africa.
Posts: 26249 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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The title itself is an example of the double think attitudes of scholars towards African Americans researching their history. It is based on the principle that African Americans are a distinct historical and cultural entity that only came about with the advent of slavery. According to this concept, most of the history of African Americans is distinct from Africans in Africa and therefore a separate entity unto itself. Therefore, because of all of that, African Americans have no 'ancient' history. This attempt to put African Americans as the basis for and origin of AFRICAN history in all its forms is what allows for such convoluted histrionic arguments as put forward by the title of the book:
quote: Title: History in Black : African Americans in Search of an Ancient Past
Which implies that African Americans as a distinct entity don't HAVE an ancient history and that AFRICA also does not have an ancient history or that AAs cannot CLAIM this as THEIR history being Africans. Funny how this nonsense doesn't apply to European Americans or Asian Americans or any other Americans, who also have a similar historical experience distinct from that of their place of origin. This double think of attempting to separate African Americans from their history AS AFRICANS and then trying to LIMIT how African Americans can approach AFRICAN history is ridiculous. By such convoluted logic, only AFRICANS should speak for AFRICAN history and only EUROPEANS should speak for EUROPEAN history and Americans should only speak for and research AMERICAN history. OBVIOUSLY this is not the case as Americans are do a great share of historical research ALL OVER THE PLANET and nobody stops Euro Americans from claiming their HISTORY as EUROPEANS. This only applies to African Americans and is a PERFECT example of WHY African Americans NEED to start doing more research IN AFRICA and ELSEWHERE.
Also, labeling all works written by African Americans as Afrocentric is a form of over generalization that attempts to lump all African historians together into one camp, when they aren't. Likewise, in saying that many of the fundamental patterns of what we call civilization or cultural assemblages associated with the early civilizations of Europe originated in Africa is not a "passing the torch" doctrine. It is readily observable that cultural assemblages, practices and norms are spread through contact and adoption from one group to the next. This is seen throughout history and is the NORM rather than the exception. By cultural assemblages, I mean the way certain fundamental behaviors are EXPRESSED in art, architecture and writing. In this sense, there is much that has been adopted from one culture to another over many thousands of years, going back all the way to early stone tools. Therefore, it is perfectly valid to trace the impact of African cultural assemblages on early European civilization. Tracing this impact is not tracing African American history, it is tracing African history as well as European history, or WORLD history. Just because the writer may be African American does not make it an attempt to create an ancient past for African AMERICANS. THAT is nonsense. It is revealing the historical connections between Africa, Europe and Asia and has nothing to do with America.
Posts: 8891 | Registered: May 2005
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^ I didn't even realize that that was what the author was implying. How can African Americans be seperate historically from Africa if that is where they originated?! Posts: 26249 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ...However, it is well established that the roots of Greek and even Roman civilization ultimately come from the Neolithic cultures of Asia and even Africa.
Wrong!!!
So-called Ancient Greek civilizations was mostly, if not entirely Black African inspired. Romans later modeled what so-called Greek was.
Posts: 213 | From: New York City, USA | Registered: Sep 2007
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For Americans of African ancestry to discover their past, they must create a link to the area of Africa they came from. That is the crux of discovering one's roots.
Posts: 1290 | From: usa | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ The nonsense just doesn't end does it?
Don't know about nonsense, but I do know the truth doesn't stop.
Ultimately, you don't seem any different from other Eurocentrics. So-called Greek civilization was completely modeled after Ancient Kemet. Why you would attribute it to Asia while making it seem like Africa had a minor role? I don't know. I think anyone who questions this truth after they've been exposed to all the facts have been shown deserve to have their intellectual competence questioned.
Posts: 213 | From: New York City, USA | Registered: Sep 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ The nonsense just doesn't end does it?
Don't know about nonsense, but I do know the truth doesn't stop.
Ultimately, you don't seem any different from other Eurocentrics. So-called Greek civilization was completely modeled after Ancient Kemet. Why you would attribute it to Asia while making it seem like Africa had a minor role? I don't know. I think anyone who questions this truth after they've been exposed to all the facts have been shown deserve to have their intellectual competence questioned.
I believe Greece was influenced by Africa of course, we already know Greeks travled to Egypt to study, but Greece is very different from Egypt. Even back durring the days of the Trojan wars Greeks didn't worship their kings as gods like what we find in Egypt and Nubia
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If Greece was completely modled after Egypt then west African Civilizations were all modled after Arabs
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quote:Originally posted by markellion: If Greece was completely modled after Egypt then west African Civilizations were all modled after Arabs
Absolutely wrong! Black African civilizations in West Africa existed long before Arabs. If anything, it was Arabs who were influenced by Black Africans and many Arabs came as invaders only to badly defeat by indigenous tribes like the Luo of Kenya. Though small Arabic influences can still be found in the Swahili language (which is a Bantu/Negro Egyptian language family), these influences are also proof of resistance against Arabization attempts as well as indigenous success in defeating them. These are point never brought when smart people dwell in posts which sometimes project a detailed sense of gratification of Arab racism towards Black Africas (many by uneducated Arab-Black Africans (ex: Sudan-Darfur))
Why do I have to repeat facts that are already known? Didn't Martin Bernal argue the points of Ancient Kemet's massive influence in Ancient Greece? Trust me when I say it would not be far fetched to claim Acient Greece was already built from top to bottom by Black Africans before it was repopulated by new people and everything in it adopted. After all, why would a people of no known recorded history of building an advanced Civilization at the level of Ancient Kemet not adopt ready made ones? This makes sense instead of claim myths like some "White Greek wrote over 1, 000 books on philosophy". Same with the so-called city and library of Alexandria, which was not built by non-Black Africans but was renamed and maybe later repurposed. If anything, these Acient places along with most of there acadmic recorded acomplishments where later destroyed by new people, therefore humans have lost much knowledge.
From architecture to worship, ancient Greece was a direct modeled after Ancient Kemet. This also a fact with European cities like Paris with slight modification in design, but no doubt the French was highly influenced by Ancient Kemet. The name "Paris" was directly created from the name of the Black African queen "Isis (more correctly "Isi")". Funny this is, the French don't deny this. Let's not kid ourselves.
Posts: 213 | From: New York City, USA | Registered: Sep 2007
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quote:Originally posted by markellion: If Greece was completely modled after Egypt then west African Civilizations were all modled after Arabs
You must have never heard of Nok, Ife, Jenne-jeno and Wagadou (Ghana); all established before an Arab ever set foot in West Africa..
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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Is there anyone left who takes crap like this seriously anymore? This book is part of the last gasp of the bold anti-black mouthpieces. We all know the prime pillar of the myth of black inferiority is that blacks "created nothing of sophistication, and were savages living in mudhuts before the superior white man lifted them from ignorance." That's why we're occasionally treated to horseh*t like this book. These books aren't meant as scholarly research, or scholarly anything. You don't write a book like this to further the cause of academia, you write it as a polemic. It helps idiots take refuge behind a work of racist fiction. Every time some evil black comes along and says, "Gee, those Egyptians sure do look like black folks, are you sure they're white?" you can rest assured it won't be long before some half-wit with a ton of white angst but not an ounce of common sense will be carting out another literary gem like this. This book is not a means to and end, it's an end unto itself. You read it, you preserve your notions of black inferiority, The end.
There's been an annoying trend of (mostly) Jewish authors who for years have tried to out-hate their white counterparts. They seem to want to share white's anti-black neuroses, which has been reinforced by blacks coming to dominate sports, entertainment and the arts. So to rationalize this crushing new reailty they've created a new field of literature --Feel-Good Black-Bashing. It's pure demagoguery: take a lie and state it BOLDLY as a fact. They settled on a talking-point upon which they hope to sell their long-dead notions of black inferiority: Blacks are desperately seeking some great past that doesn't exist to deflect attention from their inferiority. Of course these Jewish "scholars" never dare to look at African history, culture, art and science to find out what blacks did or did not have/invent. The handful who do react with stunned silence, then mutter something about, "must have been arab influenced," then slink off to continue their rant. The halls of academe is where all the myths of black inferiority were conceived, planned, justified, and promoted. And now at long last this racist nonsense has been forced to retreat until the halls where it originated are the only place where it's still preached. Oh, what is a mother to do! In this case she writes books characterizing the modern push to at last tell black history as being what the preached white-version has always been; a vapid feel-good dogma based on engendering a sense of superiority rather than accurately chronicling a groups past. Psychologists call this "projecting." Taking one's own negative traits and projecting them onto someone else in order to avoid feeling guilty for one's own inexcusably bad behaivor.
And this Jewish compuslsion to dump on anyone who dares to finally tell our history is motivated by a variation on the idea that, "Well, it's only right that we get the heat off ourselves and put it onto them. We've suffered enough anyway, now it's somebody else's turn."
That's why the last twenty years has seen some Jewish "scholar" coming out with some anti-black screed. And of course, these same Jewish writers try to establish their moral bona fides by ALWAYS referencing the Jewish holocaust in their rant/book as their impenetrable shield meant to ward off any critisism of their research, intent or ideas. But these Jewish writers never seem to realize that it's the whites they hope to appease who deny the holocaust even happened.
Perhaps one day these Jewish writers will realize that in any society scorn is heaped on the powerless undesireables, but extermination is reserved for the undesireables of means. This is why white-supremecists are always quick to point out that blacks are "worthless" but it's Jews who are "truly dangerous" because of their money, and their disproportionate presence in places "where Jews ought not be," such as government, Hollywood etc., and they've even gone so far as to say the jews brought blacks to America, i.e. Jews are the root of all evils.
Crap like this book may make certain whites/Jews with low self-esteem feel better about themselves for a few seconds, and it may bring a smile to the face of whatever white monied interests get a kick out of kicking us, (it's usually some racist "conservative think-tank" like the American Heritage Institute, The Ameican Enterprise Institute or the Claremount Foundation where these racist writers come from) but it won't get one degree of heat off of them, nor does it ever disprove the assertions of black historians. In fact, whenever pressed these propagandists always wind up having to concede the points they defended. Take heart friends. Books like these are the desperate last measures of the damned.
Posts: 248 | From: Way Down South | Registered: Sep 2007
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markellion is so stupid. Just because the Greeks were influenced by the ancient Egyptians doesn't mean that west African civilizations were influenced by Arabs. They existed long before the Arabs invaded.
Posts: 603 | From: Mobile, Alabama | Registered: Jan 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Ebony Allen: markellion is so stupid. Just because the Greeks were influenced by the ancient Egyptians doesn't mean that west African civilizations were influenced by Arabs. They existed long before the Arabs invaded.
Read what I wrote:
IF ancient Greece was modled by blacks then west African Civilizations were modled by Arabs
(it's an if than statement I'm saying neither is true)
And I know Civilization in west Africa predates Arab contact
Also I never said Greece wasn't influenced by Egypt, but to say the core was built by blacks and not the imagination and creativity of white is like saying Arabs laid the foundation of all African Civilization
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But it's called cultural diffusion and European Civilization is still European, Africans just helped us out a bit at the beginning but even then Greece was Greece
And if anyone calls me Eurocentic for this I'm going to laugh, I'm just saying European Civilization was European I'm also tired of people saying all African Civilizations are a result of outside influence
Posts: 2642 | Registered: Sep 2007
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P.S. Actually Africa was influenced by Arabs when the trans-Sahran trade boomed(look at the mosques) that does not mean it was developed by Arabs espicially like somone said it predates Arabs
Cultural diffusion
Herodotus observes that the customs of Ethiopia and Egypt are very different from the rest of man kind
Why don't Greeks practice circumsesion, worship their kings as gods and why do Greeks cremate their dead
Posts: 2642 | Registered: Sep 2007
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The African past lies in Africa proper, not in Greece so why are we chasing Greece as part of said past? It is nice to look at Greece as part of the present tradition of politics and city states but that is not Africa!
Posts: 1290 | From: usa | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by yazid904: For Americans of African ancestry to discover their past, they must create a link to the area of Africa they came from. That is the crux of discovering one's roots.
That part has already been done .... Please check link: Myra Wysinger
quote: [b]PROJECTED EXPORTS OF THAT PORTION OF THE FRENCH AND ENGLISH SLAVE TRADE HAVING IDENTIFIABLE REGION OF COAST ORIGIN IN AFRICA, 1711-1810.
Senegambia (Senegal-Gambia) * 5.8% Sierra Leone 3.4% Windward Coast (Ivory Coast) * 12.1% Gold Coast (Ghana) * 14.4% Bight of Benin (Nigeria) * 14.5 Bight of Biafra (Nigeria) * 25.1% Central and Southeast Africa (Cameroon- N. Angola) * 24.7%
* The countries in parentheses are rough approximations to help you find the location on a modern map.
Now I will try to relate the above regions to selected ethnic groups. I've collected this data from a variety of sources, and I can't vouch for all of them. The central question for me is always, "Were these people called by that name during that time in that place?" I don't know how to show the nomadic and semi-nomadic groups, but I included several below anyway.
But it's called cultural diffusion and European Civilization is still European, Africans just helped us out a bit at the beginning but even then Greece was Greece
And if anyone calls me Eurocentic for this I'm going to laugh, I'm just saying European Civilization was European I'm also tired of people saying all African Civilizations are a result of outside influence
As a quick reminder ... Greek was by no means a European civilization so in essences it is Eurocentric to place the Greeks within such a group.
Calling you Eurocentric is not the idea, but if you subscribe to Eurocentric fallacies then ... I will let you answer that for yourself.
Greek does not = European.
markellion wrote:
quote:I'm also tired of people saying all African Civilizations are a result of outside influence
I think we all are but it is just as tiring to listen to people try to make everything good European (example: Greek & Romans).
Posts: 951 | From: where rules end and freedom begins | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote:As a quick reminder ... Greek was by no means a European civilization so in essences it is Eurocentric to place the Greeks within such a group.
Calling you Eurocentric is not the idea, but if you subscribe to Eurocentric fallacies then ... I will let you answer that for yourself.
Greek does not = European. [/QB]
The Greeks considered themselves different from the rest of Europe, which doesn't matter much because China thought of themselves as different from other Asians and Egyptions saw themselves as different from other Africans
Despite outside influence Greece was unique and thoroughly European, so was Rome
Posts: 2642 | Registered: Sep 2007
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Olmecs were Mexicans, Great Zimbabwe was built by blacks, and Greece was Indo-freaking-European Posts: 2642 | Registered: Sep 2007
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I would not use Curtain's book as a source. This book undercounts the number of slaves sold into slavery. DuBois' work is better.
.
quote:Originally posted by R U 2 religious:
quote:Originally posted by yazid904: For Americans of African ancestry to discover their past, they must create a link to the area of Africa they came from. That is the crux of discovering one's roots.
That part has already been done .... Please check link: Myra Wysinger
quote: [b]PROJECTED EXPORTS OF THAT PORTION OF THE FRENCH AND ENGLISH SLAVE TRADE HAVING IDENTIFIABLE REGION OF COAST ORIGIN IN AFRICA, 1711-1810.
Senegambia (Senegal-Gambia) * 5.8% Sierra Leone 3.4% Windward Coast (Ivory Coast) * 12.1% Gold Coast (Ghana) * 14.4% Bight of Benin (Nigeria) * 14.5 Bight of Biafra (Nigeria) * 25.1% Central and Southeast Africa (Cameroon- N. Angola) * 24.7%
* The countries in parentheses are rough approximations to help you find the location on a modern map.
Now I will try to relate the above regions to selected ethnic groups. I've collected this data from a variety of sources, and I can't vouch for all of them. The central question for me is always, "Were these people called by that name during that time in that place?" I don't know how to show the nomadic and semi-nomadic groups, but I included several below anyway.
quote:Originally posted by KemsonReloaded: Don't know about nonsense, but I do know the truth doesn't stop.
And this is coming from the guy who thinks all those Greek artifacts that look 'white' are somehow forgeries! LOL
quote:Ultimately, you don't seem any different from other Eurocentrics. So-called Greek civilization was completely modeled after Ancient Kemet. Why you would attribute it to Asia while making it seem like Africa had a minor role? I don't know. I think anyone who questions this truth after they've been exposed to all the facts have been shown deserve to have their intellectual competence questioned.
Incorrect. I am different from Eurocentrics in that I do not try to attribute every high cultural achievement to somewhere else (as YOU do all the time).
Now can you please show me how Greek society was "completely modelled after ancient Kemet"??
I find this hard to belief considering that a great deal many of aspects in Greek culture are strikingly contrary to those in Egypt.
Posts: 26249 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by markellion: Olmecs were Mexicans, Great Zimbabwe was built by blacks, and Greece was Indo-freaking-European
'Indo-European' is a language group. But yes, the Greeks were indeed Europeans.
Your other points are well noted however. No one denies that Greek civilization had its influences. In fact all the evidence shows that Greek civilization is a direct descendant of earlier Aegean civilization and that this civilization was derived from Neolithic peoples from Asia as well as Africa.
It is another thing to say that Greek culture was "modeled after Egypt". Again, many things in Greek culture were contrary and opposite to those of Egypt such as for example, the views and status of women.
Posts: 26249 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by markellion: Olmecs were Mexicans, Great Zimbabwe was built by blacks, and Greece was Indo-freaking-European
No it wasn't ... Indo-freaking-European ...
Ok here we go ... some people want to label the Grecians as Indo-European and some want to label them as Mediterranean or even Asiatic but who were the Greeks really ...? We know that they were not Europeans and logically they were more Mediterranean ... so on an ethic level ... I would consider them Mediterranean who have strong traces of African DNA.
#2 ... Mexicans have 55 to 85 percent African DNA... based on the slaves and possible prior to Slaves ... When you say the Olmecs were Mexican ... you have to define what a Mexican is.
#3 Olmecs were either of African decent or even furthermore Oceanic ... This debate still rages on and will continue to rage on ... I'm personally not partial to either theory.
To learn more about the Mexican history and who they are as a people ... I have a good link for that, tho I don't subscribe to all of this persons articles ... this particular article was well written (Excluding the Olmec section).
Mr. Winters ... As you know the United States only represents 10% of the slave trade so if you was to deduct 10% from 20 million then 2 million would be the more reliable number. This is not to say that only 20 million where recorded in the slave trade but it is to say that 20 million is what lived through the process. 4 million is a good number ... especially with America only starting of with 13 states. From 4 million to a possible 45 million is a strong growth process. What nation[s] do you know have grown at that rate within 400 years?
Posts: 951 | From: where rules end and freedom begins | Registered: Jun 2004
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Did the ancient Greeks consider themselves European ... I mean did they say they were from the Caucasus mountains or anything close to that?
Posts: 951 | From: where rules end and freedom begins | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote:Originally posted by R U 2 religious: Did the ancient Greeks consider themselves European ... I mean did they say they were from the Caucasus mountains or anything close to that?
I already said Greeks saw themselves as distinct, the same way Egyptions and Chinese thought of themselves seperate from their neighbors, also same with many native Americans
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
It is another thing to say that Greek culture was "modeled after Egypt". Again, many things in Greek culture were contrary and opposite to those of Egypt such as for example, the views and status of women.
Exactly what Herodotus says
Herodotus Book II paragraph 35 talking about Egypt:
quote: Concerning Egypt itself I shall extend my remarks to a great length, because there is no country that possesses so many wonders, not any that has such a number of works which defy description. Not only is the climate different from the rest of the world, and the rivers unlike any other rivers, but the people also, in most of their manners and customs, exactly reverse the common practice of mankind
Book III paragraph 20
quote: The Ethiopians to whom this embassy was sent are said to be the tallest and handsomest men in the whole world. In their customs they differ greatly from the rest of mankind
posted
The issue of Helas and the Hellenes' relationship to Africa for anything has been discussed here in detail many times in the past in an intelligent, scholarly, and non-fanciful manner. Please peruse the archive for the ancient Hellenes' own opinions on the subject.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by markellion: Olmecs were Mexicans, Great Zimbabwe was built by blacks, and Greece was Indo-freaking-European
No it wasn't ... Indo-freaking-European ...
Ok here we go ... some people want to label the Grecians as Indo-European and some want to label them as Mediterranean
They were Miditeranean Europeans, there is diversity in Europe you know. (like there is diversity in Africa)
I'll read the information you gave about Olmecs and stuff later
And when did they start calling themselves Europeans? Has it been for the last 4 thousand ... O wait 2 thousand or even the last 15 hundred years?
What you have to understand is that I don't give attention to modern labels which means if they didn't call themselves Europeans then they are in FACT not European. PERIOD!!!
I am as I say I am because that is what I choose to be ... 500 years from now they will relabel me and call me that which I didn't call myself ... which is like what is going on with the Greek and Africans alike.
Just because Djehuti agrees with your assessment it doesn't make it correct at all. I call an African an African whether from Egypt or Angola ... because of cultural alikeness ...
What did the European barbarians have in common with the Greeks in order for you to use modern labels that suggest a likeness? The Grecian thought themselves to be their own people ... so why do you or Djehuti place them in the European category?
To the barbarian they had a goddess named 'Sin' and she was a warrior goddess but to the Grecian 'Sin' was an evil act an not a goddess. To the Romans Saturn ''a planet was their Most High deity but he was beat down by Jupiter his son ... The Grecian have Zeus who beat his father for his position ...
The Barbarian had Odin but who was the father of Odin? Grey? Bor? No he was a God of his own and he was the father of the gods ....
The barbarian teaching are totally opposite of the Grecians or the Romans ... they are different people.
Posts: 951 | From: where rules end and freedom begins | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote:And when did they start calling themselves Europeans? Has it been for the last 4 thousand ... O wait 2 thousand or even the last 15 hundred years?
What you have to understand is that I don't give attention to modern labels which means if they didn't call themselves Europeans then they are in FACT not European. PERIOD!!!
I am as I say I am because that is what I choose to be ... 500 years from now they will relabel me and call me that which I didn't call myself ... which is like what is going on with the Greek and Africans alike.
Just because Djehuti agrees with your assessment it doesn't make it correct at all. I call an African an African whether from Egypt or Angola ... because of cultural alikeness ...
What did the European barbarians have in common with the Greeks in order for you to use modern labels that suggest a likeness? The Grecian thought themselves to be their own people ... so why do you or Djehuti place them in the European category?
To the barbarian they had a goddess named 'Sin' and she was a warrior goddess but to the Grecian 'Sin' was an evil act an not a goddess. To the Romans Saturn ''a planet was their Most High deity but he was beat down by Jupiter his son ... The Grecian have Zeus who beat his father for his position ...
The Barbarian had Odin but who was the father of Odin? Grey? Bor? No he was a God of his own and he was the father of the gods ....
The barbarian teaching are totally opposite of the Grecians or the Romans ... they are different people.
quote:The races that live in…. Europe are full of courage and passion but somewhat lacking in skill and brain power …Those who are too black are cowards, like for instance, the Egyptians and Ethiopians. But those who are excessively white are also cowards… The complexion of courage is between the two
quote:Now while the southern peoples are of acute intelligence and infinite resource, they give way when courage is demanded because their strength is drained away by the sun; but those who are born in colder regions by their fearless courage are better equipped for the clash of arms, yet by their slowness of mind they rush on without reflection, and through lack of tactics are balked of their purpose… Italy presents good qualities which are tempered by admixture from either side both north and south, and are consequently unsurpassed. And so, by its policy, it curbs the courage of the northern barbarians ; by its strength, the imaginative south . Thus the divine mind has allotted to the Roman state an excellent and temperate region in order to rule the world
quote:"Barbarians can neither think nor act rationally, theological controversies are Greek to them... Under the assault of their horrible songs the classic meter of the ancient poet goes to pieces...Barbarians are driven by evil spirits; "possessed by demons", who force them to commit the most terrible acts...incapable of living according to written laws and only reluctantly tolerating kings...Their lust for gold is immense, their love of drink boundless. Barbarians are without restraint...Although generally they are considered good-looking, they are given to gross personal hygiene...They run dirty and barefoot, even in the winter...They grease their blond hair with butter and care not that it smells rancid...Their reproductive energy is inexhaustible; the Northern climate of their native land, with its long winter nights favors their fantastic urge to procreate...If a barbarian people is driven back or destroyed, another already emerges from the marshes and forests of Germany...Indeed, there are no new barbarian peoples--descendents of the same tribes keep appearing." (Herwig Wolfram, The History of the Goths, p. 6-7).
quote:the history of the primitive Europeans, if ever one has the courage to attempt it. Nevertheless, there is something flattering and consoling in seeing them, since they make us appreciate the progress we have subsequently achieved.
quote:What you have to understand is that I don't give attention to modern labels which means if they didn't call themselves Europeans then they are in FACT not European. PERIOD!!!
By that logic, ancient China isn't Asian, and ancient Mali isn't African.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote:What you have to understand is that I don't give attention to modern labels which means if they didn't call themselves Europeans then they are in FACT not European. PERIOD!!!
By that logic, ancient China isn't Asian, and ancient Mali isn't African.
Egypt and Kush wern't African either they had no concept of Africa
Mabye we should start completely rethinking how we clasify cultures in the world.
If we are going to divide Europe into western Europe, eastern Europe and the mediterranean ect. we should divide Africa into seperate cultural regions in respect to what each area has in common
I'm tired I'm going to bed
Posts: 2642 | Registered: Sep 2007
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quote:Originally posted by markellion: Egypt and Kush wern't African either they had no concept of Africa
Mabye we should start completely rethinking how we clasify cultures in the world.
Or maybe the classifications are correct, but folks need to stop playing the game of silly semantics.
quote:If we are going to divide Europe into western Europe, eastern Europe and the mediterranean ect. we should divide Africa into seperate cultural regions in respect to what each area has in common
LOL That has already been done to Africa and is still one of the problems affecting the historiography of that continent! Look here and here
quote:I'm tired I'm going to bed
LOL Maybe you should not stress yourself too much on silliness.
quote:Originally posted by R U 2 religious: Just because Djehuti agrees with your assessment it doesn't make it correct at all. I call an African an African whether from Egypt or Angola ... because of cultural alikeness ...
What did the European barbarians have in common with the Greeks in order for you to use modern labels that suggest a likeness? The Grecian thought themselves to be their own people ... so why do you or Djehuti place them in the European category?
To the barbarian they had a goddess named 'Sin' and she was a warrior goddess but to the Grecian 'Sin' was an evil act an not a goddess. To the Romans Saturn ''a planet was their Most High deity but he was beat down by Jupiter his son ... The Grecian have Zeus who beat his father for his position ...
The Barbarian had Odin but who was the father of Odin? Grey? Bor? No he was a God of his own and he was the father of the gods ....
The barbarian teaching are totally opposite of the Grecians or the Romans ... they are different people.
You obviously don't know much about the ancient cultures or religions of Europe, since there are actually a heck of alot more similarities than you realize!
Posts: 26249 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Or maybe the classifications are correct, but folks need to stop playing the game of silly semantics.
See the similarities between Afrocentrism and Eurocentrism
Greece is in Europe but has never been part of Europe and there is no grounds to say they are Europeans
Egypt is in Africa but has never been part of Africa and there is no grounds to say they were Africans Posts: 2642 | Registered: Sep 2007
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quote:Or maybe the classifications are correct, but folks need to stop playing the game of silly semantics.
See the similarities between Afrocentrism and Eurocentrism
Greece is in Europe but has never been part of Europe and there is no grounds to say they are Europeans
Egypt is in Africa but has never been part of Africa and there is no grounds to say they were Africans
In the words of John G. Jackson: it is easier to prove that ancient Egypt was “African” than to prove that ancient Greece was “European.” Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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Ancient Greeks were culturally much closer to Lebanon, Syria and Palestine than they ever were to the regions of Iberia let alone western or northern Europe. Also the Lebanese/Phoenician alphabet adopted by Greeks bares witness to this. But today a Scandinavian or German feels he is more connected and related to the ancient Greeks than a flthy Arab Palestinian is, LOL funny world we live in.
Posts: 1554 | Registered: Jul 2006
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I guess this ansewers something I've wondered for awhile, why did Arabs look down on whites even though they studied the Greeks
Posts: 2642 | Registered: Sep 2007
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quote:Markellion: guess this ansewers something I've wondered for awhile, why did Arabs look down on whites even though they studied the Greeks
Look down on whites?? "Whiteness" did not exist during the zenith of islam, and greeks look no different from people of the levant (where most translation of greek work was produced)
And also Greeks had no concept of "Europeaness" untill recently when they got "freed" from the Ottoman empire and joined the European identity side created by France and Britian.
Posts: 1554 | Registered: Jul 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Yonis2: Look down on whites?? "Whiteness" did not exist during the zenith of islam, and greeks look no different from people of the levant (where most translation of greek work was produced)
And also Greeks had no concept of "Europeaness" untill recently when they got "freed" from the Ottoman empire and joined the European identity side created by France and Britian.
A Muslim writer in the 10th century wrote that Iraqis were the most intelligent and attractive people. "The people of Iraq have sound minds…a proficiency in every art…and a pale brown color, which is the most apt and proper color…They do not come out with something between blond, blanched and leprous coloring, such as the infants dropped from the wombs of the women of the Slavs and others of light complexion ; nor are they overdone in the womb until they are burned…such as the Ethiopians and other blacks…. The Iraqis are neither half-baked dough nor burned crust, but between the two."
Arab Scholar Sa'id Al-Andalusi's opinion on whites:
Their temperaments are frigid, their humors raw. They lack keenness of understanding and clarity of intelligence, and are overcome by ignorance and dullness, lack of discernment and stupidity.
quote:Markellion: Arab Scholar Sa'id Al-Andalusi's opinion on whites
And who do you think this was directed to? Most of these texts are translated by anglo-saxon europeans who insert their own meaning into what they read.
When these "arab" writers write about "slavs" these translaters translate into "white" and when they write about "Zanj" they directly translate into "black" Africans, ultimatly the original meaning is lost in translation.
Posts: 1554 | Registered: Jul 2006
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quote:I would not use Curtain's book as a source. This book undercounts the number of slaves sold into slavery. DuBois' work is better.
I need some edification. Can someone briefly compare and contrast Philip Curtain's and W.E.B. Dubois' methodology for accounting for the number of slaves sold? I'm aware of Dubois' Ph.D thesis (Supression of the African Slave Trade), where I assume his methodology is laid out, but I'm quite rusty on the details.
Posts: 74 | From: USA | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote: You obviously don't know much about the ancient cultures or religions of Europe, since there are actually a heck of alot more similarities than you realize!
I write:
lol ... I know a lot about ancient European religions ... from Celtics, Druids, Slavic, Norse, etc ... the list goes on Djehuti ... but I must ask what is up with the red face?
Do you feel like your wasting your time with me on this subject ... or do your arrogance proceed you?
Posts: 951 | From: where rules end and freedom begins | Registered: Jun 2004
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P.S. when I first responded on this thread I was simply giving information on some of the places where African Americans came from ...
But if you would like to get into some religious ignorant debate then thats fine ... I don't think anybody on here has truly tested you yet any ways ... so if that is what you want to do then that fine ... ... create another thread ...
Other then that my response was about people labeling people and thus I would love for you to show me what commonalities did the Grecians have with the Europeans ... what do the Mediterrean people have with in common with the people they despised so much.
Posts: 951 | From: where rules end and freedom begins | Registered: Jun 2004
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I'm also tired of people saying all African Civilizations are a result of outside influence
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