^A vid, explaining alien cultures in Africa, and their influence on Africa today.
^My question is
If these cultures recently arrived in Africa, East West North, whatever, and are not the native cultures of North Africa:
Why then, do people associate them with authentic modern North Africa, and then, associate them, along with 'alien'-modern North Africans with the Ancient.
I could understand Abaza's reasoning, though rather pathetic.
Why most people don't rationally think their assertions through is beyond me.
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posted
Is that first photograph authentic? or a replica/interpretation?
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
"Why Egyptians and other North Africans distance themselves from their African identity."
Is there really such thing as an African identity?
Sure, certain movements like the AU try to make it a reality, but if anything Egyptians have and Egyptian identity and that's pretty much it. Trying to make artificial geographycal concepts a source of one's identity is not very logical to me.
Of course Egypt and it's people are Africans..since well they are located in the continent of Africa...but that's basically what being African only means..and should mean.
But it's also not logical to assume that Egypt was some kind of island in Africa, impervious to influences from other African places. Sure nowadays culturaly it's probably closer to the Middle-East, but that wasn't so in the past and I guess there are still are signs of this?
"Why then, do people associate them with authentic modern North Africa, and then, associate them, along with 'alien'-modern North Africans with the Ancient."
Do people think Islam and Arabic existed in Ancient North Africa? It seems you are talking about the looks of Modern Egyptians and people thinking the ancient ones looked like them... Well people who haven't studied this subject wouldn't know better and simply assume they looked the same...
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quote:Sure, certain movements like the AU try to make it a reality, but if anything Egyptians have and Egyptian identity and that's pretty much it.
^ Modern Arab republic of Egypt also has and Arab identity.
Ancient KM.t had and African identity and culture, and shared it with other Africans.
Your statement is likened to comparing modern Hispanic Mexico with Ancient Olmec Mexico.
Ancient Olmec Mexico had a *native* American identity. And there were no Hispanics.
Ancient Kemetic Egypt had a native Black African identity, and there were no Arabs.
Yes, they do see themselves as Arabs many times afaik. But more "Masri" than anything else I think.
But I am not sure what you are saying. Yes AE were native black africans but that wasn't their identity...their indentity was Kemetic. In other words, a Nilo-Saharan speaker (like Kushites?), while also a native black african wasn't Kemetic and therefore had a different identity. Same for the Libu. Even if they lived side by side and influenced each other. And of course all those Africans AE had not even notion, with whom there could have been no sharing of anything!
Ancient Olmec Mexico had a Olmec identity, not a Cherokee, Inca or any other native american group.
Or you think all these groups due to simply living in the same continent and having similar phenotypes (and even then with some differences) had a common identity?
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quote:Originally posted by Miguel Antunes: [QUOTE]But I am not sure what you are saying. Yes AE were native black africans but that wasn't their identity...their indentity was Kemetic. In other words, a Nilo-Saharan speaker (like Kushites?), while also a native black african wasn't Kemetic and therefore had a different identity. Same for the Libu. Even if they lived side by side and influenced each other. And of course all those Africans AE had not even notion, with whom there could have been no sharing of anything!
Evergreen Writes:
What is your definition of identity and of culture?
Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Miguel Antunes: Is there really such thing as an African identity?
Evergreen Writes:
Yes, if by identity you mean culture.
There's no monolithic "African Culture". Each people has its own. Africa is such a vast continent with many traditions peoples and yes cultures that I can't see how you could make that statment.
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quote:Originally posted by Miguel Antunes: [QUOTE]There's no monolithic "African Culture". Each people has its own. Africa is such a vast continent with many traditions peoples and yes cultures that I can't see how you could make that statment.
Evergreen Writes:
We're "jumping the gun". Let's do a bit of drill-down and define our terms. How do you define the term 'culture'?
Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Miguel Antunes: [QUOTE]But I am not sure what you are saying. Yes AE were native black africans but that wasn't their identity...their indentity was Kemetic. In other words, a Nilo-Saharan speaker (like Kushites?), while also a native black african wasn't Kemetic and therefore had a different identity. Same for the Libu. Even if they lived side by side and influenced each other. And of course all those Africans AE had not even notion, with whom there could have been no sharing of anything!
Evergreen Writes:
What is your definition of identity and of culture?
Basically an ethnic group. Defining an ethnic group isn't easy so I'll use wikipedia, lol.
"An ethnic group or ethnicity is a group of human beings whose members identify with each other, usually on the basis of a presumed common genealogy or ancestry.[1] Ethnic identity is also marked by recognition from others of the distinctiveness of a group.[2] and by common cultural, linguistic, religious, behavioural or biological traits"
Now you will say, well "I consider myself a member of the African ethnic group...we have shared ancestry, we are distinct and even have some common cultural traits"
But, you certanly don't have common linguistic, religious, behavioural traits. Even culturaly most similarities would be quite basic ones like the place of genders and society and what not. Biologically there are also differences..significant ones even if all ara black (dark skinned). So I just don't think it's coehese enough to be a valid ethnic group but really, it's not my business how you chose to indentity yourself nor will try to dissuade you. Just don't expect others to think like you.
(Hell, I wish people would see themselves simply as Humans, but I know an utopy when I see one. God knows Africa would be a better place if they simply saw themselves as Africans..but why stop there? Let's unite the human race...we do have alot in common..)
For future reference I don't believe in a European Culture or certanly not an Asian one.
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quote:Originally posted by Miguel Antunes: [QUOTE]Basically an ethnic group. Defining an ethnic group isn't easy so I'll use wikipedia, lol.
"An ethnic group or ethnicity is a group of human beings whose members identify with each other, usually on the basis of a presumed common genealogy or ancestry.[1] Ethnic identity is also marked by recognition from others of the distinctiveness of a group.[2] and by common cultural, linguistic, religious, behavioural or biological traits"
Evergreen Writes:
Based upon your definition provided above a prerequisite for membership in a culture is self-identification. Is this correct?
Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Miguel Antunes: [QUOTE]Now you will say, well "I consider myself a member of the African ethnic group...we have shared ancestry, we are distinct and even have some common cultural traits"
But, you certanly don't have common linguistic, religious, behavioural traits.
Evergreen Writes:
This makes no sense. What are the "behavioural traits" you mention above?
Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
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posted
"Based upon your definition provided above a prerequisite for membership in a culture is self-identification. Is this correct?"
Correct. So you can identity as simply "African".
I mean, I've reached a point were even quite defined ethnicities (such as Portuguese) mean little. I mean sure I talk the same language as my countrymen, but I would rather identify with someone simply because they think like me/have a similar mindset than a bunch of folks I hardly know simply because we are close genetically, speak the same language and have more or less the same traditions (which in today's globalized world barely exist, atleast where I live). So saying you are African would mean very little considering how diverse the place is and how diverse people are even in the same ethnic group.
But this is going off-topic I think.
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quote:Originally posted by Miguel Antunes: [QUOTE]Now you will say, well "I consider myself a member of the African ethnic group...we have shared ancestry, we are distinct and even have some common cultural traits"
But, you certanly don't have common linguistic, religious, behavioural traits.
Evergreen Writes:
This makes no sense. What are the "behavioural traits" you mention above?
I took that from wiki. Frankly I don't know what it means. I guess they talking about mindset?
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What defines African culture and identity? (also versus a more global human identity) Are there any attributes that unite Africans without uniting them to the rest of the world or parts of it atleast?
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posted
Egypt is unique in that the culture and cosmology of ancient Egypt is tied explicitly to Africa and its geography. Central to this cosmology is the Nile, which is completely in Africa and flows from inner Africa. As a central theme of Egyptian cosmology the Nile brings life from the mountains of creation and the birth place of the gods, which is inner Africa. This connection to the birthplace of the gods also meant a connection to the birthplace of humanity, which is again in inner Africa. Culturally, many of the aspects of Egyptian culture are African, from wearing animal skins, to forms of jewelry, styles of hair and other things. Of course other cultures also have ties to Africa, but the geography and location of Egypt relative to Africa and the cosmology surrounding that relationship is unique.
Posts: 8897 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Egypt is unique in that the culture and cosmology of ancient Egypt is tied explicitly to Africa and its geography. Central to this cosmology is the Nile, which is completely in Africa and flows from inner Africa. As a central theme of Egyptian cosmology the Nile brings life from the mountains of creation and the birth place of the gods, which is inner Africa. This connection to the birthplace of the gods also meant a connection to the birthplace of humanity, which is again in inner Africa. Culturally, many of the aspects of Egyptian culture are African, from wearing animal skins, to forms of jewelry, styles of hair and other things. Of course other cultures also have ties to Africa, but the geography and location of Egypt relative to Africa and the cosmology surrounding that relationship is unique.
Evergreen Writes:
The core psycho-graphic profile of AE cosmolgy was African.
Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Miguel Antunes: I mean, I've reached a point were even quite defined ethnicities (such as Portuguese) mean little.
Evergreen Writes:
You seem to espouse a relativist philosophy. There is no absolute or concrete culture in your worldview.
We could take this view and apply it to anything. Heck, there is no such thing as matter, because matter and energy are constant and interchangable.
Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Egypt is unique in that the culture and cosmology of ancient Egypt is tied explicitly to Africa and its geography. Central to this cosmology is the Nile, which is completely in Africa and flows from inner Africa. As a central theme of Egyptian cosmology the Nile brings life from the mountains of creation and the birth place of the gods, which is inner Africa. This connection to the birthplace of the gods also meant a connection to the birthplace of humanity, which is again in inner Africa. Culturally, many of the aspects of Egyptian culture are African, from wearing animal skins, to forms of jewelry, styles of hair and other things. Of course other cultures also have ties to Africa, but the geography and location of Egypt relative to Africa and the cosmology surrounding that relationship is unique.
Evergreen Writes:
The core psycho-graphic profile of AE cosmolgy was African.
Absolutely. Inner Africa was the source of all good things, light and life in this cosmology. Such a cosmology and national identity would be hard or nearly impossible for people NOT from inner Africa. Unfortunately, this association between some piece of soil or geography with everything good and decent and the national identity of a people has gotten played out in the present incarnation of Europe's Europe centered world view. This is especially so as no African has ever sought to force their cosmology and culture onto everyone else, like Europe has.
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quote:Yes AE were native black africans but that wasn't their identity...their indentity was Kemetic. In other words, a Nilo-Saharan speaker (like Kushites?), while also a native black african wasn't Kemetic
Incorrect. In the Tera Heka scroll both Rm.t and Nshsi are classed as -> Km.t [nw.t] Black community.
In the Prophesy of Neferti, the authentic Kemetic Pharoah is classified as son of TaSeti.
Punt, and TaSeti, was the self proclaimed ancestral homeland of the Kmt.
Actually the concept of Nilo Saharan language catagory is irrelvant to the above - since the Km.t had no catagory system for language families.
Perhaps this is easier for ws.t educated to understand if you relay it thru familiar references.
The Ancient Hebrew considered the Kemetian and "Kushites" to be children of Ham.
They did not consider themselves related to Kemetians via 'afro-asiatic' language, nor did they class Kushites separately via nilo-saharan language.
For the Hebrew, Shem, Ham, Japith are 3 ethnic references.... and it is the case that Ham would reference the Blacks of Africa.
Bottom line: there is and ancient and authentic concept of shared ethnic affiliation amongst the dark skinned native peoples of Africa.
^ Eurocentrists are invited to refute the above if they think they can.
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quote:Originally posted by Miguel Antunes: Is there really such thing as an African identity?
Evergreen Writes:
Yes, if by identity you mean culture.
Agreed.
In the way that a culture can be African. Not of course, meaning there is one monolithic culture.
quote:Originally posted by Miguel Antunes:
quote:Originally posted by rasol:
quote:Sure, certain movements like the AU try to make it a reality, but if anything Egyptians have and Egyptian identity and that's pretty much it.
^ Modern Arab republic of Egypt also has and Arab identity.
Ancient KM.t had and African identity and culture, and shared it with other Africans.
Your statement is likened to comparing modern Hispanic Mexico with Ancient Olmec Mexico.
Ancient Olmec Mexico had a *native* American identity. And there were no Hispanics.
Ancient Kemetic Egypt had a native Black African identity, and there were no Arabs.
Yes, they do see themselves as Arabs many times afaik. But more "Masri" than anything else I think.
But I am not sure what you are saying. Yes AE were native black africans but that wasn't their identity...
I'm quite sure Rmt Kmt recognised themselves as african, natives of the Nile Valley, and as black or Kem.
As for culture, though it may not be apparent to the average Joe looking at Africa today, there were actually many commonalities accross the continent.
I see no need for *someone* to assume that *anyone* here thinks there to have been one single, monolithic, Culture Of Africa - lol. Unless of course, that someone is attempting to debate, and thinks he can set up a straw man position for his percieved opponent.
quote:Ancient Olmec Mexico had a Olmec identity, not a Cherokee, Inca or any other native american group.
Or you think all these groups due to simply living in the same continent and having similar phenotypes (and even then with some differences) had a common identity?
Certainly they may have, but I doubt it.
As for cultural similarities, they may have had that as well.
quote:Originally posted by Miguel Antunes: "Why Egyptians and other North Africans distance themselves from their African identity."
Is there really such thing as an African identity?
Today? Why, certainly.
However, some expectation that an African of a Franco Germanic (Boer), Abaza (our very own Glider, allegedly), Arab (Hawas) or another, non-indigenous background/ancestry/&culture will harbour an African identity is unfounded, especially considering the alien-ness and foreignness of the said culture, and identity, and it's being at odds with an African identity in the first place.
Of course, Hawass, an Egyptian from an Arab town, would deny Egypt is African.
If they say-so.
Rasol here was only surprised he said it isn't Arab.
quote:Sure, certain movements like the AU try to make it a reality, but if anything Egyptians have and Egyptian identity and that's pretty much it. Trying to make artificial geographycal concepts a source of one's identity is not very logical to me.
Identity isn't dictated by logic. We're all human -> KKK still doesn't consider its self the same as 'blacks'.
quote:Of course Egypt and it's people are Africans..
Sure.
quote:Originally posted by Alive - What Box:
Why then, do people associate them with authentic modern North Africa, and then, associate them, along with 'alien'-modern North Africans with the Ancient.[quote]
[quote]Originally posted by Miguel Antunes:
Do people think Islam and Arabic existed in Ancient North Africa?
Precisely what I'm getting at.
so...
quote:It seems you are talking about the looks of Modern Egyptians and people thinking the ancient ones looked like them.
Modern Egypt's foreign identity is assumed to be indicative of anything Ancient Kemet, which is only indicative of a vast general ignorance of Ancient Egyptian culture and where it stems from.
Not just looks, people, culture, society, etc.
quote:Well people who haven't studied this subject wouldn't know better and simply assume they looked the same...
True.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Is that first photograph authentic? or a replica/interpretation?
Actually not sure if the pic I posted from the site is authentic or not ... but I just clicked the picture and checked the site, which says it's a copy.
Just curious, why'd you ask the question?
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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posted
@AWB - this is the first time I have seen this photo. I wanted to add it to my collection. I don't want to add "intepretation". If it is a exact cpy, that's fine. Colour looks very clean. quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by xyyman: Is that first photograph authentic? or a replica/interpretation? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Actually not sure if the pic I posted from the site is authentic or not ... but I just clicked the picture and checked the site, which says it's a copy.
Just curious, why'd you ask the question?
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Yes AE were native black africans but that wasn't their identity...their indentity was Kemetic. In other words, a Nilo-Saharan speaker (like Kushites?), while also a native black african wasn't Kemetic
Incorrect. In the Tera Heka scroll both Rm.t and Nshsi are classed as -> Km.t [nw.t] Black community.
In the Prophesy of Neferti, the authentic Kemetic Pharoah is classified as son of TaSeti.
Punt, and TaSeti, was the self proclaimed ancestral homeland of the Kmt.
Actually the concept of Nilo Saharan language catagory is irrelvant to the above - since the Km.t had no catagory system for language families.
Perhaps this is easier for ws.t educated to understand if you relay it thru familiar references.
The Ancient Hebrew considered the Kemetian and "Kushites" to be children of Ham.
They did not consider themselves related to Kemetians via 'afro-asiatic' language, nor did they class Kushites separately via nilo-saharan language.
For the Hebrew, Shem, Ham, Japith are 3 ethnic references.... and it is the case that Ham would reference the Blacks of Africa.
Bottom line: there is and ancient and authentic concept of shared ethnic affiliation amongst the dark skinned native peoples of Africa.
^ Eurocentrists are invited to refute the above if they think they can.
^^ Great post! Kudos.
Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
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posted
^Yes, I forgot to get back to that - I agree!
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: @AWB - this is the first time I have seen this photo. I wanted to add it to my collection. I don't want to add "intepretation". If it is a exact cpy, that's fine. Colour looks very clean. quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by xyyman: Is that first photograph authentic? or a replica/interpretation? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Actually not sure if the pic I posted from the site is authentic or not ... but I just clicked the picture and checked the site, which says it's a copy.
Just curious, why'd you ask the question?
Oh, well, look up some pictures from the temple at Abydos, or just ask our image-master.
posted
Identity and culture in a homogenous culture (Northern Europe as example) point in the same direction meaning limited external cultural influences. Culture can change because people want to hide their roots and become part of another culture whether by choice or opportunity! Spanish culture is essentialy European but many people in the Americas assume the identity of that group what they perceive to be better than an indigenous one and more so in a foreign (USA) atmosphere where they may not know better so no one is the wiser!
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quote:Yes AE were native black africans but that wasn't their identity...their indentity was Kemetic. In other words, a Nilo-Saharan speaker (like Kushites?), while also a native black african wasn't Kemetic
Incorrect. In the Tera Heka scroll both Rm.t and Nshsi are classed as -> Km.t [nw.t] Black community.
In the Prophesy of Neferti, the authentic Kemetic Pharoah is classified as son of TaSeti.
Punt, and TaSeti, was the self proclaimed ancestral homeland of the Kmt.
Actually the concept of Nilo Saharan language catagory is irrelvant to the above - since the Km.t had no catagory system for language families.
The Ancient Hebrew considered the Kemetian and "Kushites" to be children of Ham.
They did not consider themselves related to Kemetians via 'afro-asiatic' language, nor did they class Kushites separately via nilo-saharan language.
For the Hebrew, Shem, Ham, Japith are 3 ethnic references.... and it is the case that Ham would reference the Blacks of Africa.
Bottom line: there is and ancient and authentic concept of shared ethnic affiliation amongst the dark skinned native peoples of Africa.
^ Eurocentrists are invited to refute the above if they think they can.
Rasol, Very good post. Usually you don't qoute the Bible or use the biblical reference of Ham. Why did you use it in this case?
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