posted
This is a response from the race of the Egyptians thread I saw some false things about ginger mummies so I am addressing it here since that thread is locked.
Ten hair samples of Copts from the 8th-10th century AD from the district of Sayala, and 11 hair samples of Egyptian mummies dated to the 18th-25th dynasty were examined for their structural properties compared with recent hair samples, using x-ray diffraction and infrared spectroscopy. The attenuated total reflection technique, which allows multiple reflection infrared spectroscopy on native hair, reveals the structural integrity of the ancient hair samples. X-ray diffraction studies using chromium-alpha radiation confirmed the infrared results. Signs of dehydration could be observed but no conformational changes, indicating the structural stability of hair protein over thousands of years. If you find the whole study he addresses that Ginger most likely did not have his hair changed or deteriorated - as there is no evidence to support that he did.
Also, A. Rae actually went and tested the mummy and said there was no dye used in the hair itself. Rae, A., "Dry human and animal remains: their treatment at the British Museum", Human mummies: a global survey of their status and the techniques of conservation, The Man in the Ice; vol. 3, 3-211-82659-9.
The only red hair in Africans is from Albinism:
Red or rufous albinism is a rare type of oculocutaneous albinism described, but not as yet fully investigated, in Africa and New Guinea. Twelve rufous albino subjects from 10 families participated in this preliminary study. The prevalence of rufous albinism was found to be approximately one in 8,580 among school children in the negroid population. The combination of the unusual red skin colour, ginger to reddish hair colour, low susceptibility to sun damage, and minimal visual problems, in affected individuals, suggested that they form a group which is distinct from the brown and other types of albinism. The mode of inheritance was found to be recessive. Tyrosinase assays showed that rufous albinos are tyrosinase positive and on electron microscopy studies normal melanosomes and melanocytes were observed in hair bulbs and skin. Visual evoked potential testing did not show the gross decussation abnormalities of the optic pathway detected in other types of albinism. Rufous albinism might be at one end of the spectrum of types of oculocutaneous albinism and, because affected people have such mild symptoms, their inclusion in this group might be debatable.
It is suggested in Evidence for Variable Selective Pressures at MC1R shows that red hair came about outside of the hot African climate due to natural selection - as red hair (Which is genetically associated with paler skin) would have been harmful in the African environment.
It directly says: We conclude that MC1R is under strong functional constraint in Africa, where any diversion from eumelanin production (black pigmentation) appears to be evolutionarily deleterious. An African Negro would never had Ginger hair - that had to have come from outside sources.
Henna never touched the hair of Ramses. Microscopic examination of the hair which has been carried out has shown conclusively that he had red hair. See K.A. Kitchen, "Pharaoh Triumphant: The Life and Times of Ramses II, King of Egypt" (1982, reprinted 1985).
Hair samples from 76 burials at Semna South (Sudanese Nubia) were examined using a variety of techniques.... Hair form analysis showed medium diameter and scale count; the curling variables were intermediate between European and African samples. There you see that there's a chance that they are Caucasoid-Negroid mixed.
The red-heads never existed in large numbers. They are a minority in the most common of areas today.
They entered about the time Ginger did.
They didn't traverse miles and miles from Africa. They originated in a central point (Outside of Africa) and expanded to China, Europe, India, the Middle East, and Africa too.
posted
Why should anyone be surprised that you could find remains of people with red hair in kemet?the question should be, how and when did they get there,after all people did travel for all kinds of reasons sometimes as slaves,soldiers,merchants,deplomats and refugees.the same could be said of woolly haired black people found north of the medittarainean.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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quote:Originally posted by ackee: Why should anyone be surprised that you could find remains of people with red hair in kemet?the question should be, how and when did they get there,after all people did travel for all kinds of reasons sometimes as slaves,soldiers,merchants,deplomats and refugees.the same could be said of woolly haired black people found north of the medittarainean.
Exactly, I mean just becuase Egypt had red headed people does not mean the Egyptians were a White people. They were blacks. And Im confused as to why an Arab or supposed Arab would care abour Redheaded Egyptians...Last I checked Arabs were on the most part dark haired and the original Arabs were as black as the Hebesha peoples anyway.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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This guy is a nut. He still doesn’t get it. He has no understanding of how nature works and the process of Natural Selection.
White skin, light hair (blond/red head) and other Euro adaptive features are NOT naturally occurring in that of the world. It is just a wish by nut cases and bad scientist. The further away from the continent(Equatorial Africa) one gets the lighter the people are. It is just that simple and there is a scientific reason for that. That is why even in southern Europe blonds and red-heads are not natural occurring. In Southern Asia it is the same.
Only an idiotic racist will believe that Ramses was a natural red-head. It is fudge data.
If you read the race of AE thread – I said the only strategy left is to make the Somalians/Bejas/Ethiopian/Sudanese fall into the European ‘race” camp. Saying that AE was Nordic is so. . . .fuchked up!! Who will believe that sh1t
Listening/watching(video) Keita’s lecture/seminar work in the UK he stated that AE has limb characteristic(bone attachment thingy) that is found in over 50% of present day East Africans. But only 13% of West African/Diasporans. This is an indication that AE were NOT a West African ethnic group. However he also said that this trait is found in less than 4% of Euro Americans.
There is only one sensible conclusion – AE are indigenous to that part of the continent. They are STILL there as Bejas/Sudanese etc. They are NOT of West African stock. And are even further to Europeans. (And I am an E3a Diasporan)
They are indigenous Africans which in today’s social context will be classified as Black because of their black and brown skin.
Furthermore proof of their indigenousness are evident in the pre-dynastic civilization which clearly shows the evolution of the civilization. It was NOT transplanted from Arabia or Europe. There wasn’t anything similar or comparable in Europe and Arabia at the time.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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-Red hair is artificially found in Africa due to Dying of the Hair with plants henna etc. -Red or light colored hair at the roots is also found in Africa. -Red hair usually in children but also in Adults is also sometimes a sign of Malnutrition Africa. -In natural mummifications or simple decomposition sometimes the body changes to the color of the environment - THe color of Sand. I am sure you have seen Pitch black "Bog Bodies" that have been naturally mummified. Or other Mummies in Southern America that have also been Mummified that have Bright orange hair. Also some of the fur and hair fibers of mummified animals in Egypt ALSO have Orange / Reddish hair. Its really a DUMB argument.
A red haired European is the palest one that you get. They wouldn't survive in the Sahara. Red haired people cannot even get tans.
Posts: 2463 | From: New Jersey USA | Registered: Dec 2007
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I would also state that they successfully performed DNA testing on the Tocharians and found them to NOT Be Western Europeans at all but rather a mixture of different Asians groups, most of them East and S.E. Asian. Including that man with 'red hair', also the Woman they both so wanted to be European. Try again.
Posts: 2463 | From: New Jersey USA | Registered: Dec 2007
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The better argument for a Western Asiatic presence in NE Africa is that of the mummy Ginger rather than Ramses.
Not sure why we would be talking about a Pharoah that lived post Libyan and Hyksos rule of Egypt.
By then you are looking at significant foreing influence. ie: Horse drawn chariots.
-------------------- Across the sea of time, there can only be one of you. Make you the best one you can be. Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
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Colored hair and eyes are due to sexual selection - as in many cultures they are believed to be the most attractive. Light skin is adaptive for Vitamin-D and light skin would be lighter as there is less sunlight.
Microscopic evidence has proven that Ramses did not, in fact, color his hair and that it was truly red that he was born with. I posted a scientific data sheet that proved this. And you call it "Racist," "idiotic," and "fudge data." You, sir, just don't want to believe that there was a red-headed pharoh.
YOU are the idiotic racist.
More evidence: Microscopic inspection of the roots of Ramesses II's hair proved that the original color of the king's hair was once red which suggests that he came from a family of redheads. This has more than just cosmetic significance; in ancient Egypt, people with red hair were associated with the god Seth, the slayer of Osiris, and the name of Ramesses II's father, Seti I, means "follower of Seth." Bob Brier, The Encyclopedia of Mummies, Checkmark Books, 1998., p.153 Bob Brier, Egyptian Mummies: Unravelling the Secrets of an Ancient Art, William Morrow & Co. Inc, New York. 1994. pp.200-201
You would have to be a moronic, racist coward to deny all the evidence that Ramses the Great did, indeed, have red hair naturally. You are fueled by outdated [nonscientific] claims and other Negrocentric bull**** that is easily defeated by the simple microscope.
Furthermore, the Egyptians began to mix with Negroes as time went on - thus, the only true data is from the pre-dynastic Egyptians, and one has been discovered with red hair - another tomb has been discovered with black sea cultural items.
quote:
See the following for more details about hair,apperance, and genetic studies on mummies.
From: Rogers, Spencer Lee, _Personal identification from human
remains_ 1987, "Hair often survives for a considerable time after
death and can be recognized as to color and to some extent texture. A
study in which hair was buried experimentally in the soil for a two
year period revealed that there was no appreciable change until after
one month, but it became streaked and brittle after one year. Two
years was found to be the maximum duration of Caucasian hair buried
underground." (p.8) On the same page it reads: "The color of eyes
during life cannot be determined from their appearance on a cadaver
since all eyes become a greenish brown shortly after death."
Please note that the Egyptians used special methods to PRESERVE THEIR BODIES after death. They DID NOT bury them in the dirt.
Your quote is quote irrelevant - and Ramses II didn't have visible eye color, not that it would matter if it was brown anyway.
quote:Here is a relevent study about DNA from mummies:
DNA decay rate in papyri and human remains from Egyptian archaeological sites.
Marota I, Basile C, Ubaldi M, Rollo F.
The writing sheets made with strips from the stem (caulis) of papyri (Cyperus papyrus) are one of the most ingenious products of ancient technology.
We extracted DNA from samples of modern papyri varying in age from 0-100 years BP and from ancient specimens from Egypt, with an age-span from 1,300-3,200 years BP.
The copy number of the plant chloroplast DNA in the sheets was determined using a competitive PCR system designed on the basis of a short (90 bp) tract of the chloroplast's ribulose bisphosphate carboxylase large subunit (rbcL) gene sequence.
The results allowed us to establish that the DNA half-life in papyri is about 19- 24 years.
This means that the last DNA fragments will vanish within no more than 532-672 years from the sheets being manufactured. In a parallel investigation, we checked the archaeological specimens for the presence of residual DNA and determined the extent of racemization of aspartic (Asp) acid in both modern and ancient specimens, as a previous report (Poinar et al. [1996], Science 272:864-866) showed that racemization of aspartic acid and DNA decay are linked.
The results confirmed the complete loss of authentic DNA, even in the less ancient (8th century AD) papyri. On the other hand, when the regression for Asp racemization rates in papyri was compared with that for human and animal remains from Egyptian archaeological sites, it proved, quite surprisingly, that the regressions are virtually identical. Our study provides an indirect argument against the reliability of claims about the recovery of authentic DNA from Egyptian mummies and bone remains. Copyright 2002 Wiley-Liss, Inc.
So what? They did not test Ramses II genetically, but they did microscopic testing on his hair.
quote: Vistors to museums around the world find it fasinating to see the mummified faces of the ancient dead. But although Egyptians mummies often very well preserved,with much of the soft tissue clinging to the skull,the faces inside the wrapping almost certainly are different than what the person must have looked like.
quote:
Nobody uses a mummy as the basis of their facial features anyway.
quote: The red hair, on the contrary, seems represented, at least by some individuals, in all known races, whether equatorial or boreal... From what precedes, we arrive at the conclusion that the colour of the hair alone is insufficient to characterise a race... p73-4
The Hair of Earlier Peoples, Don Brothwell and Richard Spearman p427-436 in Science in Archaeology, eds. D Brothwell and E Higgs 1963
That study is from the 60's, and they didn't have the genetic data to support that Negroes and Mongoloids that were color-haired were actually mixed with White European settlers or Tocharians.
Give me scientific evidence that Negroes can have naturally red hair without a form of albinism.
If you didn't already know - hair COLOR is not the only the way to distinguish hair, but flatness, thickness, roundness, and other methods can be used - these were ALL taken into consideration for Ramses the Great.
What about the historical evidence that Ramses II and his family (Specifically his father) were compared to Seth because of their red hair? It was obviously a family trait.
Ramses II's father (Seti I or something) was considered the follower of Seth because of his red hair.
Refute the cultural/historical proof of his red hair - and that they checked it in the ****ing microscope!
Posts: 130 | Registered: Mar 2009
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"Wow"@ Astenb i did'nt know they did any testing,i saw a documentary on the supposedly,k-zoid mummies of western China complete with fibers that supposedly matches Celtic wear.Have you checked it out? was on Discovery CH.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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^ I agree, the Chinese mummies are very interesting along with the Pyramid mounds. But then this is where Egyptian mummies significantly differ. It is rather obviously Caucasian influence in the Chinese mummie where as the Egyptian mummies look nothing like the Chinese mummies nor are the mummification techniques of any relatedness.
Compare the two different mummies - Caucasian Chinese -vs- Egyptian.
As for Ramses - not sure why it is of any relevance in terms of the ethnic makeup of Egypt? Good grief that is really late into Egyptian history.
-------------------- Across the sea of time, there can only be one of you. Make you the best one you can be. Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
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"You would have to be a moronic, racist coward to deny all the evidence that Ramses the Great did, indeed, have red hair naturally."
Thats really funny. Thanks for the laugh.
Plenty of Negro mummies though.
Ramses clearly had very dark skin.
Whats a Negro anyways? Do you mean Bantu features of something? Sounds like colonial White peole's thinking. Are you really Arab or European? Do Arabs think like White colonials?
I have a hard time believing that when the Upper Egyptians re-unified Egypt and expelled the Hyksos invaders that they didn't mix with the Semites and Libyan people that had invaded Lower Egypt.
The Gene pool of Lower Egypt has had an Asiatic presence since the Holocene era.
-------------------- Across the sea of time, there can only be one of you. Make you the best one you can be. Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by ackee: Why should anyone be surprised that you could find remains of people with red hair in kemet?the question should be, how and when did they get there,after all people did travel for all kinds of reasons sometimes as slaves,soldiers,merchants,deplomats and refugees.the same could be said of woolly haired black people found north of the medittarainean.
Exactly, I mean just becuase Egypt had red headed people does not mean the Egyptians were a White people. They were blacks. And Im confused as to why an Arab or supposed Arab would care abour Redheaded Egyptians...Last I checked Arabs were on the most part dark haired and the original Arabs were as black as the Hebesha peoples anyway.
Arabs don't have Red Hair? Huh? Okay, so please tell me what an Arab is? I am confused by Afronuts and White colonialists.
The Middle East is just what it applies - in the Middle. You know what happens in the middle - it gets over run by invaders over and over again. From Europe, From Africa, From Asia.
Waves upon waves of conquests, invasions, migrations, etc.
You guys make me laugh.
Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
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posted
Compare the Chinese mummies to Egyptian ones. Note the skin color, hair and facial features.
Clearly it obvious the African from the European.
-------------------- Across the sea of time, there can only be one of you. Make you the best one you can be. Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
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^ In my opinion Ramses has predominantly African features. Mouth, Skin, curly hair, shape of the head. Having foriegn genes such as Red Hair wouldn't surprise me at all.
Ugly bastard if you ask me.
-------------------- Across the sea of time, there can only be one of you. Make you the best one you can be. Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
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This guy sounds like celts. Celt is that you?
---- from arabegypt Do you have any evidence of this?
Colored hair and eyes are due to sexual selection - as in many cultures they are believed to be the most attractive. Light skin is adaptive for Vitamin-D and light skin would be lighter as there is less sunlight.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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Looking at the National Geographic link Sundjata posted(on the Minoans) is further proof what Marc et al is on to something. The further back you go the blacker are the “Mediterranean” people.
At 1hr 2min into the video they said they discovred a portrait of the Minoans, back in 1972?, it clearly showed black people as Minoans. These were dark skinned people with . . .afros.
Then when you look at the geography, these people had to be Africans. Even the Eurocentric narrator said the Minoans were influenced by Egypt. Clearly this was a group of one black people(Minoans) trading with another group of black people(AE).
Any logical person can see that the islands were ONE of several passageway into and out of Africa .
The North African sea (Mediterranean) was clearly occupied by black peoples . . . . even when you get onto the mainland Europe the people were dark skin/dark hair and dark eyed. . . .even up to today.
As I said only a nut will believe in a “red-haired Nordic Africans”. Get your own fuchking history!!!!
Better tactic is to separate East(and indegenous North Africans) from West Africans, that is a more sensible strategy.. . . .as some of these threads are attempting to do eg Somalids and Ethiopians are white. Brothas, hope you are up to the challenge. This coming from an E3a.. . .
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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@ Futhermore to demonstrate how idiotic you are . . . Arabegypt (whatever that means). R1a and R1b and I are NOT indigenous to Africa. So fool even IF Rameses had red-hair it is VERY VERY VERY unlikely he was European. Plus even IF his family was of foreign origin his subjects WERE Africans. And most definitely he considered himself a citizen of LAND OF THE BLACK, as so many other indegenous Pharoahs. He was Egyptian . . . first.
So what is your point????? Get the X#@!! outta here!!
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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Why sanction the idea that Africans Do have red-hair. We are pulling at straws . . brotha. The test is simply bogus. More BS from Hawass and his people.
What did Hwass say in that BBC radio piece. . . ."AE were black but not negroes" some sh1t like that. He at least affirmed they were NOT Arabic.
quote:Originally posted by astenb: -Red hair is artificially found in Africa due to Dying of the Hair with plants henna etc. -Red or light colored hair at the roots is also found in Africa. -Red hair usually in children but also in Adults is also sometimes a sign of Malnutrition Africa.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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xyyman wrote: ---------------------- Better tactic is to separate East(and indegenous North Africans) from West Africans, that is a more sensible strategy.. . . .as some of these threads are attempting to do eg Somalids and Ethiopians are white. Brothas, hope you are up to the challenge. This coming from an E3a.. . . ----------------------
I see why posters like rasol don't post anymore on these forums. With dumb hip hop listening African Americans posting idiocy on these boards the effort contributing is wasted.
Posts: 3085 | Registered: Jan 2008
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I don't understand what the point is over the endless debate about whites and Arabs 'who were or were not' once black.
Are y'all trying to prove that blacks evolved into whites? Why are you degrading black skinned people like that?
Posts: 3891 | From: No good deed goes unpunished. | Registered: May 2007
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Why sanction the idea that Africans Do have red-hair. We are pulling at straws . . brotha. The test is simply bogus. More BS from Hawass and his people.
What did Hwass say in that BBC radio piece. . . ."AE were black but not negroes" some sh1t like that. He at least affirmed they were NOT Arabic.
quote:Originally posted by astenb: -Red hair is artificially found in Africa due to Dying of the Hair with plants henna etc. -Red or light colored hair at the roots is also found in Africa. -Red hair usually in children but also in Adults is also sometimes a sign of Malnutrition Africa.
Did Hawas really say that? Black but not Negroes? Very interesting. It is rather colonialist language but I do understand the sentiment.
Negroe is what the White colonials called lowland Bantu people. Highland Ethiopians were not considered Negroes. The term was non-Negroid Blacks. There's a new term - Somalid.
Just heard about it here 2 days ago.
Very interesting.
Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
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I think Diop pointed out that Ramses was in his 90's when he died. Show me a white man beyond his 50s with ANY hair colour and this argument won't be stupid.
Posts: 365 | Registered: Dec 2008
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: There is only one sensible conclusion – AE are indigenous to that part of the continent. They are STILL there as Bejas/Sudanese etc. They are NOT of West African stock. And are even further to Europeans. (And I am an E3a Diasporan)
Why do you keep using genetic codes to validate yourself? 1) Have you been genetically tested to confirm the existence of e3a 2) Don't you have any other gene's? 3) Do you find it difficult to understand that classifying yourself with a genetic code as a label is the same as calling yourself a 'Negroid'.
Posts: 365 | Registered: Dec 2008
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quote:Originally posted by ackee: Why should anyone be surprised that you could find remains of people with red hair in kemet?the question should be, how and when did they get there,after all people did travel for all kinds of reasons sometimes as slaves,soldiers,merchants,deplomats and refugees.the same could be said of woolly haired black people found north of the medittarainean.
Exactly, I mean just becuase Egypt had red headed people does not mean the Egyptians were a White people. They were blacks. And Im confused as to why an Arab or supposed Arab would care abour Redheaded Egyptians...Last I checked Arabs were on the most part dark haired and the original Arabs were as black as the Hebesha peoples anyway.
Arabs don't have Red Hair? Huh? Okay, so please tell me what an Arab is? I am confused by Afronuts and White colonialists.
The Middle East is just what it applies - in the Middle. You know what happens in the middle - it gets over run by invaders over and over again. From Europe, From Africa, From Asia.
Waves upon waves of conquests, invasions, migrations, etc.
You guys make me laugh.
Where did I say Arabs dont have red hair...? Learn how to read before spewing your emotions on to me son, I said Arabs for the most part are Dark haired...If you can prove other wise...Shut up. Also it is a fact that the original Arabs were black or what we would call black. That makes me an Afro-Nut becuase I point out that fact...Despite the fact that MANY PEOPLE on this board agree that the Arabs were originally black.
What is an Arab...come on dude...Resorting to strawmans...LOL. If your that uneducated that you cant understand what an Arab is me telling you wont help. Of course ILL GLADLY tll you what an Arab is when you tell me what an "Asiatic" is.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by of_gold: I don't understand what the point is over the endless debate about whites and Arabs 'who were or were not' once black.
Are y'all trying to prove that blacks evolved into whites? Why are you degrading black skinned people like that?
All of our ancesters were at one point dark skinned. Back beyond that time, it was pink or something like that.
At a point in time they also all had straight furr too.
I don't know what this has to do with the subject or get how this would be degrading to any modern people or how anyone's implying i'm one any full group [of people]'s ancestor -- or any group alive today and not in the future.
As far as the topic goes, yes its played out but i don't get how it has more to say about black people than do the individual posts and the topic have to say about their posters.
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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quote:Originally posted by ackee: Why should anyone be surprised that you could find remains of people with red hair in kemet?the question should be, how and when did they get there,after all people did travel for all kinds of reasons sometimes as slaves,soldiers,merchants,deplomats and refugees.the same could be said of woolly haired black people found north of the medittarainean.
Exactly, I mean just becuase Egypt had red headed people does not mean the Egyptians were a White people. They were blacks. And Im confused as to why an Arab or supposed Arab would care abour Redheaded Egyptians...Last I checked Arabs were on the most part dark haired and the original Arabs were as black as the Hebesha peoples anyway.
Arabs don't have Red Hair? Huh? Okay, so please tell me what an Arab is? I am confused by Afronuts and White colonialists.
The Middle East is just what it applies - in the Middle. You know what happens in the middle - it gets over run by invaders over and over again. From Europe, From Africa, From Asia.
Waves upon waves of conquests, invasions, migrations, etc.
You guys make me laugh.
Where did I say Arabs dont have red hair...? Learn how to read before spewing your emotions on to me son, I said Arabs for the most part are Dark haired...If you can prove other wise...Shut up. Also it is a fact that the original Arabs were black or what we would call black. That makes me an Afro-Nut becuase I point out that fact...Despite the fact that MANY PEOPLE on this board agree that the Arabs were originally black.
What is an Arab...come on dude...Resorting to strawmans...LOL. If your that uneducated that you cant understand what an Arab is me telling you wont help. Of course ILL GLADLY tll you what an Arab is when you tell me what an "Asiatic" is.
How is asking you what an Arab is a strawman? Do you know what a strawman is?
Here's my 2 cents:
Arab no longer means anything in terms of continent of origin. It is almost equivalent to being a Jew. It is basically about culture rather than race of any kind and it certainly doesn't imply gene expression any more.
Learn Arabic, call yourself Mohammed something and wear a turbin and you can be an Arab too.
Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
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^ Here's an example of a Black man who thinks he is an Arab.
Arab doesn't mean anything anymore.
So was Ancient Egypt an Arab nation.
The answer is NO.
No funny looking Turbins and names like Mohammed Ali.
-------------------- Across the sea of time, there can only be one of you. Make you the best one you can be. Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
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I dont get how this proves what u are trying to say that the ancient egyptians where white or Arab sorry this one doesnt help u at all egyptwithoutarabs. I have seen pictures of Tigray {Northern Ethiopians} who have red hair young and old but its not common.
Posts: 69 | Registered: Mar 2009
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quote:Originally posted by osirion: ^ Here's an example of a Black man who thinks he is an Arab.
Arab doesn't mean anything anymore.
So was Ancient Egypt an Arab nation.
The answer is NO.
No funny looking Turbins and names like Mohammed Ali.
Look this bickering is childish, we can talk like men/acedemics with out getting emtional.
Where did I say the Egyptians were Arabs? My response was to how ArabEgypt claims Egypt was "Arab" becuase of Redheaded mummies when the Arabs as in Arabian people of the peninsula are on average Dark Haired. Your're Idea of an Arab has to do with the Arab Islamic culture...Kind of like American/Anglo culture. Some people would say Black Americans are White becuase of our Anlgo/American culture...or some would say Greeks are NOT white becuase they are alien to the Anglo/American culture.
Anyway when you said Arab I was thinking of the Arabs in the land of Arabia.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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All of our ancesters were at one point dark skinned. Back beyond that time, it was pink or something like that.
When, back in time, was modern humanity's original state pink...or something like that?
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Ugly bastard if you ask me. [/QB][/QUOTE] He was supposed to be an attractive play boy with like 200 kids...I mean is it possible to have 200 kids...?
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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All of our ancesters were at one point dark skinned. Back beyond that time, it was pink or something like that.
When, back in time, was modern humanity's original state pink...or something like that?
Wasn't referring to humanity, LOL did i just give you that caveman image?
I was refering to ancestors who weren't "human" and refering to before 2.5 mil back, before the origin of our genes coding for melanin.
So i don't get how people take it to be offensive that humans originated with dark skin. Heck, other beasts have pink skin. Before that origin point for the dark brown skin we have now, who knows, they could have had grayish skin like the dull skin color you see on some primates now.
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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Yo! Yo! Yo! You missed the point Brains(thunderbirds). See you have a thing for bro Rasol.. . .who can't think outside the box. What did someone say. "Well trained negroes"???
quote:Originally posted by argyle104: xyyman wrote: xyyman wrote: ---------------------- Better tactic is to separate East(and indegenous North Africans) from West Africans, that is a more sensible strategy.. . . .as some of these threads are attempting to do eg Somalids and Ethiopians are white. Brothas, hope you are up to the challenge. This coming from an E3a.. . . ----------------------
I see why posters like rasol don't post anymore on these forums. With dumb hip hop listening African Americans posting idiocy on these boards the effort contributing is wasted.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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i agree with him. I mean, "Better tactic is to separate East(and indegenous North Africans) from West Africans [....] this coming from an E3a".
Ah but laughter is good for the soul they say. Argyle doesn't even have to say anything under most of your posts he quotes and it'd be funny, with me at least that's less often the situation.
quote:Originally posted by osirion: ^ Here's an example of a Black man who thinks he is an Arab.
You can be black and Arab.
Black is just an ethnonym refering to skin color and Arab, really, a culture.
Learn to use ur whole mind and not just your either-or option-based left side of the brain.
There is still the complete lack of evidence that any of the AE culture originated oustide of Africa.
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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There was a link to the BBC site on one of these threads. I saved it as a *.wav file on one of my PC. Do a search for Hawass/BBC you may come across it.
quote:Originally posted by osirion:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: [qb] What did Hwass say in that BBC radio piece. . . ."AE were black but not negroes" some sh1t like that. He at least affirmed they were NOT Arabic.
Did Hawas really say that? Black but not Negroes? Very interesting.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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YES. I was tested E3a, thru the NG genographics project. Will do the MtDNA in the future. I suppose I DO have other genes but it cost about $400 for the test. I DO NOT use the word NEGRO to describe myself. I use the word African decendant with my peers and African American to others. Nuff said???? Yo Yo Yo
quote:Originally posted by Narmer Menes:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: There is only one sensible conclusion – AE are indigenous to that part of the continent. They are STILL there as Bejas/Sudanese etc. They are NOT of West African stock. And are even further to Europeans. (And I am an E3a Diasporan)
Why do you keep using genetic codes to validate yourself? 1) Have you been genetically tested to confirm the existence of e3a 2) Don't you have any other gene's? 3) Do you find it difficult to understand that classifying yourself with a genetic code as a label is the same as calling yourself a 'Negroid'.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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@ Narmer --- and I am comfortable in my blackness.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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lol, good one (tho i know where he's comin from with how peep's act in the here and now, i remember that comment of his too)
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Freehand: i agree with him. I mean, "Better tactic is to separate East(and indegenous North Africans) from West Africans [....] this coming from an E3a".
Ah but laughter is good for the soul they say. Argyle doesn't even have to say anything under most of your posts he quotes and it'd be funny, with me at least that's less often the situation.
quote:Originally posted by osirion: ^ Here's an example of a Black man who thinks he is an Arab.
You can be black and Arab.
Black is just an ethnonym refering to skin color and Arab, really, a culture.
Learn to use ur whole mind and not just your either-or option-based left side of the brain.
There is still the complete lack of evidence that any of the AE culture originated oustide of Africa.
Culture? I will have to think about that. There was technology that originated from outside of Africa, some pottery types, some textiles, some of the people are clearly Western Asian.
Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Freehand: i agree with him. I mean, "Better tactic is to separate East(and indegenous North Africans) from West Africans [....] this coming from an E3a".
Ah but laughter is good for the soul they say. Argyle doesn't even have to say anything under most of your posts he quotes and it'd be funny, with me at least that's less often the situation.
quote:Originally posted by osirion: ^ Here's an example of a Black man who thinks he is an Arab.
You can be black and Arab.
Black is just an ethnonym refering to skin color and Arab, really, a culture.
Learn to use ur whole mind and not just your either-or option-based left side of the brain.
There is still the complete lack of evidence that any of the AE culture originated oustide of Africa.
You just repeated what I said. Arab is now a culture like Jew is. There is a stereotypical Jew and the same is true for Arabs.
Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
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Getting back on topic. One very curious thing about Ramses having Red hair is that none of his depictions shows him with Red Hair.
Now that is very weird. The same depictions of Ramses with Black hair shows Nubians with Blonde and Red hair.
Now why wouldn't Egyptians show his lovely Red hair?
-------------------- Across the sea of time, there can only be one of you. Make you the best one you can be. Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
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Now you talking!!! Nubians with blonde hair: After all they are cacausoids .....right Arabegypt.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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^ This is ridiculous. This topic has been covered repeatedly before; it's too bad the arabhead hasn't caught on.
Egyptology: Hanging in the Hair
by Anu M'bantu and Fari Supia
F0R YEARS, EGYPTOLOGY has been fighting a losing battle to hold onto an ancient Egypt that is Caucasian or, at worst, sun-tanned Caucasian.
At the 1974 UNESCO conference Egyptology was dealt a fatal blow. Two African scholars wiped the floor with 18 world-renowned Egyptologists. They proved in 11 different categories of evidence that the ancient Egyptians were Africans (Black). Following that beating, Egyptology has been on its knees praying to be saved by science. Their last glimmer of hope has been the hair on Egyptian mummies.
The mummies on display in the world's museums exhibit Caucasoid-looking hair, some of it brown and blonde. These mummies include Pharaoh Seqenenre Tao of the 17th dynasty and the 19th dynasty's Rameses II. As one scholar put it: "The most common hair colour, then as now, was a very dark brown, almost black colour although natural auburn and even rather surprisingly blonde hair are also to be found."
Many Black scholars try skillfully to avoid the hair problem. This is a mistake!
In 1914, a white doctor in Detroit initiated divorce proceeding against his wife whom he suspected of being a "closet Negro". At the trial, the Columbia University anthropologist, Professor Franz Boas (1858-1942), was called upon as a race expert. Boas declared: "If this woman has any of the characteristics of the Negro race it would be easy to find them . . . one characteristic that is regarded as reliable is the hair. You can tell by microscopic examination of a cross-section of hair to what race that person belongs."
With this revelation, trichology (the scientific analysis of hair) reached the American public. But what are these differences?
The cross-section of a hair shaft is measured with an instrument called a trichometer. From this you can get measurements for the minimum and maximum diameter of a hair The minimum measurement is then divided by the maximum and then multiplied by a hundred. This produces an index. A survey of the scientific literature produces the following breakdown:
San, Southern African 55.00
Zulu, Southern African 55.00
Sub-Saharan Africa 60.00
Tasmanian (Black) 64.70
Australian (Black) 68.00
Western European 71.20
Asian Indian 73.00
Navajo American 77.00
Chinese 82.60
In the early 1970s, the Czech anthropologist Eugen Strouhal examined pre-dynastic Egyptian skulls at Cambridge University. He sent some samples of the hair to the Institute of Anthropology at Charles University, Prague, to be analyzed. The hair samples were described as varying in texture from "wavy" to "curly" and in colour from "light brown" to "black". Strouhal summarized the results of the analysis:
"The outline of the cross-sections of the hairs was flattened, with indices ranging from 35 to 65. These peculiarities also show the Negroid inference among the Badarians (pre-dynastic Egyptians)."
The term "Negroid influence" suggests intermixture, but as the table suggests this hair is more "Negroid" than the San and the Zulu samples, currently the most Negroid hair in existence!
In another study, hair samples from ten 18th-25th dynasty individuals produced an average index of 51! As far back as 1877, Dr. Pruner-Bey analyzed six ancient Egyptian hair samples. Their average index of 64.4 was similar to the Tasmanians who lie at the periphery of the African-haired populations(1).
A team of Italian anthropologists published their research in the Journal of Human Evolution in 1972 and 1980. They measured two samples consisting of 26 individuals from pre-dynastic, 12th dynasty and 18th dynasty mummies. They produced a mean index of 66.50.
The overall average of all four sets of ancient Egyptian hair samples was 60.02. Sounds familiar . . ., just check the table!
Since microscopic analysis shows ancient Egyptian hair to be completely African, why does the hair look Caucasoid? Research has given us the answers.
Hair is made of keratin protein. Keratin is composed of amino acid chains called polypeptides. In a hair, two such chains are called cross-chain polypeptides. These are held together by disulphide bonds. The bulk of the hair, the source of its strength and curl, is called the cortex. The hair shafts are made of a protective outer layer called the cuticle.
We are informed by Afro Hair - A Salon Book, that chemicals for bleaching, penning and straightening hair must reach the cortex to be effective. For hair to be permed or straightened the disulphide bonds in the cortex must be broken. The anthropologist Daniel Hardy writing in the American Journal of Physical Anthropology, tells us that keratin is stable owing to disulphide bonds. However, when hair is exposed to harsh conditions it can lead to oxidation of protein molecules in the cortex, which leads to the alteration of hair texture, such as straightening.
Two British anthropologists, Brothwell and Spearman, have found evidence of cortex keratin oxidation in ancient Egyptian hair. They held that the mummification process was responsible, because of the strong alkaline substance used. This resulted in the yellowing and browning of hair as well as the straightening effect.
This means that visual appearance of the hair on mummies cannot disguise their racial affinities. The presence of blonde and brown hair on ancient Egyptian mummies has nothing to do with their racial identity and everything to do with mummification and the passage of time. As the studies have shown, when you put the evidence under a microscope the truth comes out. At last, Egyptology's prayers have been answered. It has been put out of its misery.
Add this to the fact that black African hair color is not always jet-black but comes in slightly lighter hues:
There are even Nubian people whose hair have brownish tinge. After the effects of mummification and thousands of years even their hair would turn red or yellow.
Oh, and I don't know how blonde and red hair is associated with 'Arabs' who also have black or dark hair no lighter than blacks.
Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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This article is funny. Not only is it obviously written by Afrocentrists, but the thinly veiled rhetorical smirks and its claims that, all other features aside, race can be determined solely by this hair measure, are funny too. This hair measure is supposedly the same per race whatever the physical structure of the hair--yet strangely, people with a certain structure of hair (straight/wavy/Caucasians, straight/Asians, straight/Native Americans) seem to have pretty much the same number per type of hair.
Using this logic, we can argue that the physical and chemical tests that the apartheid government applied to South Africans to determine their race pretty much held water, even though often families would be separated because certain individuals had "black" hair while others didn't, and therefore must have belonged to separate races.
But what really got to me, was its allegation that the only reason Egyptian mummies had brown and blonde hair, or straight hair, was the process of mummification, and the hint that all Egyptians really had Sub Saharan African-type hair and that this was covered up by the racist Egyptologists. This is not true. One of the first scholars cited in that article said that Egyptians had dark brown, almost black hair, although occurrences of light brown or even blonde were not uncommon, and this is true. The modern Egyptians are the closest genetic descendants of the ancient Egyptians, and modern Egyptians do have mostly black hair, but many also have naturally occuring brown. I for instance have curlish (but not tightly curled/kinky) black hair, the same as my fathers, but my mother and my two brothers have straight hair ranging from light to dark brown, and save for maybe being 1/8 Turkish we're Egyptian. Wavy or curlish black or brown hair describes most Egyptians.
As for what goes on in UNESCO... I shouldn't start. The UN stopped being a movement for equality and became a movement for reverse racism and discrimination a long time ago. Durban, Durban 2, the 16-year resolution on Zionism, the reluctance to fight anti-Semitism or homophobia the same way it would attack offensive religious cartoonists, the ban on criticizing the Shariah or human rights violations in Islamic countries, the hundreds of resolutions against Israel and the handful on Darfur, demonizing Europe to no end and recognizing solely its role in the slave trade... it's effectively controlled by Middle Eastern and African countries with an agenda, backed up by ill-treated socialist states and political correctness.
Posts: 130 | Registered: Mar 2009
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quote:Wavy or curlish black or brown hair describes most Egyptians.
Stop squirming you fraud. If that's the case, then why make a thread suggesting or implying that most had "red hair"? If you agree that red hair would be EXTREMELY rare in both ancient and modern Egypt, how does it contradict anything we or the above article proposes? Your goal is not to identify ancient Egypt with modern Egypt but to separate Egypt all together from Africa. This is why you make threads stating Ethiopians are "Black Whites", etc.. You post some of the dumbest things and you honestly can't believe most of what you say. Point being of course that you're just in denial. You're scared and call Ethiopians white because you realize ancient Egyptians are related to them and Ethiopians, Somalis, etc are deemed "Black" by most standards. You realize the false dichotomy so you try to white wash half of Africa. Get the hell out of here! You haven't addressed one thing in the above article in terms of refuting the central points (that AE hair is well within the range of African variability and outside the scope of European variability).
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by arabegypt: This article is funny. Not only is it obviously written by Afrocentrists, but the thinly veiled rhetorical smirks and its claims that, all other features aside, race can be determined solely by this hair measure, are funny too. This hair measure is supposedly the same per race whatever the physical structure of the hair--yet strangely, people with a certain structure of hair (straight/wavy/Caucasians, straight/Asians, straight/Native Americans) seem to have pretty much the same number per type of hair.
First of all, even if the article was written by 'Afrocentrics', Egypt is IN Africa and the ancient Egyptians ARE Africans. Second, you fail to refute any of the actual scientific points of the article. The point is that 'race' does not really exist because of the variations that exist among different populations, however that the Egyptians had hair no different from other black peoples indigenous to the tropics is a fact.
quote:Using this logic, we can argue that the physical and chemical tests that the apartheid government applied to South Africans to determine their race pretty much held water, even though often families would be separated because certain individuals had "black" hair while others didn't, and therefore must have belonged to separate races.
Well, obviously there was mixture between the white settlers and the native black peoples so it's no surprise that some 'whites' had "black" hair.
quote:But what really got to me, was its allegation that the only reason Egyptian mummies had brown and blonde hair, or straight hair, was the process of mummification, and the hint that all Egyptians really had Sub Saharan African-type hair and that this was covered up by the racist Egyptologists. This is not true. One of the first scholars cited in that article said that Egyptians had dark brown, almost black hair, although occurrences of light brown or even blonde were not uncommon, and this is true. The modern Egyptians are the closest genetic descendants of the ancient Egyptians, and modern Egyptians do have mostly black hair, but many also have naturally occuring brown. I for instance have curlish (but not tightly curled/kinky) black hair, the same as my fathers, but my mother and my two brothers have straight hair ranging from light to dark brown, and save for maybe being 1/8 Turkish we're Egyptian. Wavy or curlish black or brown hair describes most Egyptians.
And again, you obviously ignored the part that "Sub-Saharan" African hair varies in texture and includes the curly or wavy forms I just showed above. Also dark brown pigment is also not unusual among blacks. And "Sub-Saharan" is a false term anyway because blacks are native to *all* of Africa including the Sahara and north of it. But you are correct that modern Egyptians like the rural Fellahin best represent their ancient ancestors.
quote:As for what goes on in UNESCO... I shouldn't start. The UN stopped being a movement for equality and became a movement for reverse racism and discrimination a long time ago. Durban, Durban 2, the 16-year resolution on Zionism, the reluctance to fight anti-Semitism or homophobia the same way it would attack offensive religious cartoonists, the ban on criticizing the Shariah or human rights violations in Islamic countries, the hundreds of resolutions against Israel and the handful on Darfur, demonizing Europe to no end and recognizing solely its role in the slave trade... it's effectively controlled by Middle Eastern and African countries with an agenda, backed up by ill-treated socialist states and political correctness.
The above is a red-herring and has NOTHING to do with the simple FACT that the ancient Egyptians were black.
Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
This has been addressed ad nauseam.. 
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Why are you degrading black skinned people like that?
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Argyle doesn't even have to say anything under most of your posts he quotes and it'd be funny, with me at least that's less often the situation.![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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