quote: Cairo University inaugurated a new DNA lab to find clues of mummies' family links here on Monday.
The lab is the second of its kind in Egypt. The first one was established at the Egyptian Museum two years ago, said Dr. Hossam Kamel, president of the university.
Dr. Kamel and Dr. Zahi Hawas, Secretary General of the Supreme Council of Antiquities were present at the inauguration.
"It is very important not to use the same lab to analyze the DNA of living and dead people as there may be confusion in the results," Dr Hawas said.
"I used to be against the DNA tests for mummies, because it was done by foreigners, and the mix of DNA of the dead and the alive could lead to inaccurate results," he said.
"We can not trust results from one lab, so we established another to make comparison and get precise data," he added.
Dr Sally, one of the five scientists working at the lab, said the DNA of the mummies is different from that of people alive. "It is very old and fragile, so we have to extract and multiply it before tests."
The priority of the new lab, said Hawas, is "to study the family tree of Tutankhamun, as we do not know who his father was, and where his mother's mummy was buried."
Tutankhamun (ruled from 1333 BC to 1324 BC) was an Egyptian Pharaoh of the 18th Dynasty, during the period of Egyptian history, known as the new kingdom.
"We will announce key information about Tutankhamun's family link next August, after comparing the results from the two labs, "Hawas said.
The lab, which cost one million U.S dollars, is sponsored by the American Discovery Channel, said Hawas, adding that the channel "will shoot what we will be doing."
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Sponsored by the American Discovery Channel? I guess the tampering techniques have now been mastered. Oh well. Posts: 455 | From: Tharsis Montes | Registered: Jan 2009
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We'll just have to wait and see what the results yield before we can say anything about it.
Posts: 26286 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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If the results do not go your way you will say it was a conspiracy by evil eurocentrics.
You will do that because none of this has anything to do with evidence or academic research, it never has. This board has always been about black nationalism.
Posts: 2069 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2008
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^ Better yet, if what he says is true then why is it we all cite scientific and historical sources from mainstream academia the majority of which come from WHITE including many European scholars??! I find Pat's claims humorously ludicrous especially considering that he himself hardly ever cites any academic sources. Posts: 26286 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Djehuti, there is an old saying, "stats don't lie but liars use stats.' I have been reading this board for a long time and we have had many different conversations about historical method. There are at least two major problem here. Fisrt, many of the posters have less than an average education in even basic history. The result is they buy into these political myths that are taught here with little ability to be critical of the conclusions reached. Second, more often than not information is used out of context because it is simply too complex for laymen to work with. If the moderators went through and deleted all of the race threads fully 95% of these people would leave. It is hard to do good history if history is not what you are interested in.
Posts: 2069 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2008
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Wouldn't be a nice if most came back y-HG A, after all the debate about E3b.
Hell, Sudan bordering Egypt has about 45% HG A. And we know most of these "features" are autosomal.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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Evergreen Writes: It is important to keep in mind that dna extraction from actual mummies can still produce false assumptions regarding population affinities. Sample size, sample group, historical context, etc all need to be factored into a MODEL to produce a more valid hypothesis. You can produce highly reliable models by sampling both ancient population and modern populations. Likewise you can produce models that are less probable using ancient and modern sources as well. It is the validity of the model construct that determines the probability level.
Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
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well Evergreen, the primary focus of the DNA research will be, according to Dr. Hawass, to discover family relationships and make it possible to identify some mummies who are in question. Unlike you guys they are not on some racial crusade and thus you may not get much in the way of broader information.
Posts: 2069 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2008
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^ Of course familial relations are different from population relations. But if one were to use DNA markers for populations, I expect the results to be the same as we have always predicted in this forum!
quote:Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot: Djehuti, there is an old saying, "stats don't lie but liars use stats.' I have been reading this board for a long time and we have had many different conversations about historical method...
But we are not talking about "stats". We are speaking of both bio-anthropology as well as historical documents that verify the indigenous i.e. black African identity of the Egyptians. We have cited so many studies from the mainstream it is ridiculous to dismiss them.
quote:There are at least two major problem here. First, many of the posters have less than an average education in even basic history. The result is they buy into these political myths that are taught here with little ability to be critical of the conclusions reached.
LOL How do you even know what kind of education most of the posters had?! You don't know their academic backgrounds and judging from the way they discuss studies they have at least a college degree in science. Some of the veterans in here have even gone as far to contact and have discussions with the experts who authored these studies. So please don't make silly and insulting presumptions about posters in here having below average education. That ancient Egypt was a black African culture is not some "political myth" but a historic and scientific FACT.
quote:Second, more often than not information is used out of context because it is simply too complex for laymen to work with. If the moderators went through and deleted all of the race threads fully 95% of these people would leave. It is hard to do good history if history is not what you are interested in.
LOL There is nothing "complex" about it! Whether it is archaeological sources documenting the ancient Egyptian populace being indigenous to the African continent; historic sources from the Egyptians themselves showing their African nativity as well as historical documents from other sources like Israelite, Assyrian, Greek and Roman describing them as blacks; studies of cranial and skeletal remains showing African affinities; epithileal studies of mummies showing black skin; or DNA evidence showing the prevalence of African lineages among Egyptians, the results are still the SAME and SIMPLY put!--- THEY WERE BLACK AFRICANS.
Posts: 26286 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Wouldn't be a nice if most came back y-HG A, after all the debate about E3b.
Hell, Sudan bordering Egypt has about 45% HG A. And we know most of these "features" are autosomal.
Of course that depends on which populations of Sudan is sampled. I believe A is more common in the south and central Sudan while E is more common in the north.
Posts: 26286 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot: Unlike you guys they are not on some racial crusade and thus you may not get much in the way of broader information.
Evergreen Writes: AP, there is no "racial crusade". Most of us on here don't even believe in the concept of race. What science has taught us is that humans originated in Africa and migrated from Africa to other parts of the world and that the ancient Nile Valley populations descend primarily from Africans that moved up the Nile during the early Last Glacial Maximum. Their cranial remains, genetic profile and archaeology indicate affinities with other Africans both in the Sahara, the Horn of Africa and West Africa.
At the beginning of the holocene some of these Nile Valley Africans spread around the circum-Mediterranean basin where they introduced systems of animal and plant management to SW Asians and SE Europeans who were more nomadic and some say "just coming out of the caves and hillsides of Europe". These technological advances or "Neolithic Revolution" led to the development of complex socities in Europe or what is known as "Civilization" in popular terms. One such civilization that was an off shoot of this African exodus were the city states of Greece.
I hope this helps your understanding.
Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
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I can tell their level of education by the things they write. You have to know how to use the information you get. I cannot count the times I have seen people here take a single piece of information and try to construct a complete history from it. Much of the Greek stuff discussed here shows a decided lack of understanding of historical method. It is one thing to study an isssue and go where the information leads you, it is quite another to arrive at a conclusion and then try to build a case around it. the latter is exactly what is going on here.
Posts: 2069 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2008
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Evergreen, It shows your lack of understanding. You have 'constructed' a position based on a preconcieved notion. You have no evidence to back up your position on Greece, if you do you need to tell classical historians who have spent a lifetime studying the subject and reject these simplistic views.
Posts: 2069 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2008
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quote:Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot: You have no evidence to back up your position on Greece..
Evergreen Writes: This sentence is poorly written and incomprehensible. What is my position on Greece? Please be specific.
Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
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i agree with the definition but to say that the greek city states were an off shoot of an African civilization is a simplistic and ignorant statement.
Posts: 2069 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2008
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quote:Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot: i agree with the definition ...
Evergreen Writes: Do you also agree that the Greek city states developed from the Neolithic Greek cultures?
Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
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I know where you are going Evergreen and your data is wrong. We have been through this whole Greek neolithic question here before and it does not hold water.
Posts: 2069 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2008
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quote:Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot: I know where you are going Evergreen and your data is wrong. We have been through this whole Greek neolithic question here before and it does not hold water.
Evergreen Writes: Are you excusing yourself from this debate? If so I allow you to cede. If you would like to continue the debate, then please follow the rules and protocols of civilized debate. Answer the question directly and succently.
Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
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I have seen this ignorant dribble here many times before Evergreen. Unless you have something new to add I'll pass. If you want to understand Greek history we have many fine scholars who do great work.
Posts: 2069 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2008
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A.P so Bio-anthropologist,when they find that as much as 1/3 of Greeks carry African DNA and that European First farmers carried African and Anatolian technique and phsyique.......why do you get upset?
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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That is not historical data Branda. You cannot draw historical conclusions from it.
Posts: 2069 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2008
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^That's not true. Genetics is an excellent way to track human migrations in pre-history and this is acknowledged unanimously by researchers.
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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Genetics might tell you something Sundjata but in this case they tell you almost nothing, nothing of value to a historian.
Posts: 2069 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2008
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quote:Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot: I'll pass.
Evergreen Writes: AP, I knew you would take the cowards path and chose not to fullfill your commitment to debate me.
Most of us know that you are only here to get a kick out of riling up the most feeble minded among us with racially intollerant diatribes. You don't really have anything of value to add. You're a loser who gets a kick out of spewing racial insults to college kids over the internet.
Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
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naturally Evergreen, everyone who disagrees with you is a racist. Since you believe that the Greek city states are an off shoot of an african civilization you would then qualify for the feeble minded group you mentioned.
Posts: 2069 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2008
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quote:Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot: naturally Evergreen, everyone who disagrees with you is a racist.
Evergreen Writes: I never said you were a racist. I said you get a kick out of spewing racial diatribes and getting a reaction from the young kids on this forum. You're more like a pervert than a racist.
Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
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quote:Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot: Genetics might tell you something Sundjata\
It tells you the biological/geographical origin of populations, hence we'd never know that modern humans migrated out of Africa 50-70,000 years ago from written text covering only 5,000 years of human history (and only in certain regions).
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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Sundjata, OK, it tells you that. It tells you a group of people were in an area and a particular time BUT it tells you nothing historical. You do not have enough information to draw historical conclusions or for that matter to EVEN POSE QUESTIONS.
Posts: 2069 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2008
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Genetics can tell you something historical depending on the amount of genetic information, especially when coupled with archaeological, linguistic and historical data ...
At the same time it's correct to say that genetic data in and of its self isn't automatic proof of any historical or geographic conclusion.
quote:Originally posted by Evergreen: Evergreen Writes: It is important to keep in mind that dna extraction from actual mummies can still produce false assumptions regarding population affinities. Sample size, sample group, historical context, etc all need to be factored into a MODEL to produce a more valid hypothesis. You can produce highly reliable models by sampling both ancient population and modern populations. Likewise you can produce models that are less probable using ancient and modern sources as well. It is the validity of the model construct that determines the probability level.
Way to stay proper.
In the main, we can't [or shouldn't] assume the worst, only assess the situation and the interpretation of the data.
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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quote:Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot: Genetics might tell you something Sundjata but in this case they tell you almost nothing, nothing of value to a historian.
This is a stupid claim. Genetics gives you information about populations in an area including population history. Is not the history of a population itself important to history by and large?? Pat, I bet you would not dismiss the historical significance of genetics if it were proven that red-headed whites ruled in Egypt now would it? LOLPosts: 26286 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Djehuti, No historian on the face of this earth agrees with what you just said, not one. Genetics has no historical value within itself. You have to be able to add context to the information and on the issue we have been talking about you guys cannot add any because it does not exist. Find me one Greek historian who agrees with you.
Actually many red headed caucasians did rule egypt, you know that. Where did you get the idea that all caucasians were white?
Posts: 2069 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2008
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quote:Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot: Djehuti, No historian on the face of this earth agrees with what you just said, not one. Genetics has no historical value within itself. You have to be able to add context to the information and on the issue we have been talking about you guys cannot add any because it does not exist. Find me one Greek historian who agrees with you.
As usual you make no sense, 'professor'!! How does genetic information such as the origins and history of a population not count as historical information??!
quote:Actually many red headed caucasians did rule egypt, you know that. Where did you get the idea that all caucasians were white?
Yes many red-headed caucasians ruled Egypt-- IN YOUR DREAMS!! LOL
Plus, if according to you "caucasians" are not all white then what other colors do they come in? Brown or black??! Are you saying there were brown skinned "cacasians" with red hair?? How about defining what a "caucasian" is first!
Posts: 26286 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Because Djeguti, without contect you have NO IDEA it even deals with the origins of a group of people. You can do better.
Posts: 2069 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2008
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^ Again you make no sense!! What do you mean by "no context"??! Genetics has clearly established an accurate and concise way of identifying genetic lineage and thus geneology of a population. Such information tells us the origins and timeframe a population has been in a certain area, which is exactly why historians have begun to rely on such data!!
As usual your little closed mind just refuses to accept this FACT for the matter that you can't understand it and it demolishes your white supremy ideology!
Posts: 26286 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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No context means that you have no way of plugging it into anything. Just finding a dead body buried in the countryside tells you nothing. HOW does that body influence Greek history. Give me some facts. How did this particular body influence classical Greek society.......specifically. You can't do it thus you have nothing. There are 20,000 year old blacks buried all over europe, it means nothing in historical terms.
Posts: 2069 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2008
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^ Of course the context that genetic data from the physical remains tells is the origin of a certain population and how long they've been living in the area, while examination of the physical remains themselves gives an idea of how these people look like and what their state of health was. All of this is important when it comes to historical study of a people, but what you are asking for is cultural significance in historical study. Well what else can we glean about the culture of a people but from their material remains through archaeological study.
And the archaeological record is quite clear-- peoples of African descent in Greece who are responsible for the introduction of Neolithic culture!
Now, getting back to the topic of this thread we are dealing with mummies or physical remains of ancient Egyptians who were Africans. Get over it!
Posts: 26286 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot: Genetics might tell you something Sundjata but in this case they tell you almost nothing, nothing of value to a historian.
This is a stupid claim. Genetics gives you information about populations in an area including population history. Is not the history of a population itself important to history by and large??
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^ Of course I agree with that study! Why shouldn't I?
East Africans are more related to Eurasians than other Afrians are because Eurasians are descended from East Africans!!
quote:from Zarahan
^ Of course this is not to say that East Africans are more related to Eurasians than they are to other Africans, since all Africans are still more related to each other than to non-Africans. After all, the study you cited about East Africans like Somalis and Ethiopians still largely show PN2 derived male lineages that originated in and are still largely confined to the African continent! The paternal lineage E3b predominant in Somalis and Ethiopians is the sibling of E3a which is prominent in West Africa.
quote:from Zarahan
Of course some of these E lineages spilled out into Southwest Asia and even southern Europe via migrations of black Africans into these areas!
And of course 'Eurasian' does not mean non-black or even "caucasian" as the earliest Eurasians who came from Africa were still black and those who remained in the tropics still are today.
Eurasian boy
Posts: 26286 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Djehuti, Until you give me some Greek histography your point is lost. You can blabber here all you want but the Greek historians will decide the issue, as they have.
You can be the King of egypseacrch.com
Posts: 2069 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2008
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Since no human population originated in Europe or Greece, then the earliest populations in those places came from somewhere else. And those places are Africa and Asia as humans originated in Africa and first spread to Asia before Europe. Likewise, since no civilization originated in Europe and Greece the earliest forms of civilization had a lot of influence from somewhere else. The FIRST civilizations (math, science, writing, architecture) originated in Africa, Asia and the Levant and those are the places where Europe's first civilizations received much of their influence.
NO scientist states otherwise and Greek scholars have nothing to do with it because they cannot change the flow of human history and Greece is no island unto itself in a sea of ancient humanity and history.
Posts: 8897 | Registered: May 2005
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Doug, What the hell difference does that make? We are talking about historical Greece, not frickin Adam and Eav. Wake up son and smell the coffee.
Greek scholars have to do with Greek history, we have no earth idea what history you are talking about.
Posts: 2069 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2008
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AP.. I've noticed that you tend to knock over weaker arguments like the above while you vehemently deny (with out substance) valid ones. I must say that that's a pretty good strategy if you're to have longevity here as a nuisance. Very intelligent and calculating, I must say. Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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I simply want to see ood scholarship Sundjata. Actually i do not disagree with everything you guys say. the problem is that when shabby scholarship is used crazy ideas emerge.
Posts: 2069 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2008
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quote:Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot: Djehuti, Until you give me some Greek histography your point is lost. You can blabber here all you want but the Greek historians will decide the issue, as they have.
You can be the King of egypseacrch.com
Silly Pat, the African ancestry in Greeks dates back to prehistorical times so of course there is no histography! But the point remains the same-- these-- these people brought neolithic culture from which civilization arose, period!
Now are we actually going to get back to the actual topic of this thread which is about the 2nd DNA lab or are you gonna keep going on about Greece??
Posts: 26286 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Djehuti just show me the Greek historians who agree with you, that is all you have to do.
The labs are designed to show family relationships. You will not get any afronut propaganda out of it unless you just make something up.
Posts: 2069 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2008
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