The very title tells the direction of travel or influence, Tassili the elder originator to AE the younger receptor. That is what the author, Philip Coppens is proposing. This is the exact opposite of what theGaul supposes, origin and movement from Egypt to Tassili.
I've tried to explain this several times but each time it is ignored as if ignorance will make it go away.
quote:Originally posted by The Gaul:
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri:
Harping on one piece from Sefar is disengenius as that piece is not indicative of Fulani culture and so bears no relevance to Fulani origins in KM.t
I would remind once again that SE Algeria is not Egypt. Nothing ... shows a date contemporaneous to Ancient Egypt nor transposition from the Nile Valley to the Tassili massif.
... Tassili preceded Ancient Egypt and the smiter motif first appeared in Sefar before later showing up in Egypt.
This is consistent with what we know of the middle and lower Nile Valley absorbing immigrants from the drying Green Sahara as well as those moving downstream from Sudan.
the "smiting of enemies" rock art painting is clearly similar to Dynastic Egypt. Perhaps you missed this?
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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The resounding silence of a response, given the subject of the intro citation, is noticeable.
-------------------- The Complete Picture of the Past tells Us what Not to Repeat Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Well looking at the time It's still early yet.it's 17:30 where I Am at.
Not to complain but if some Jerk throw out an afrocentrics are the cause of of gobal-warming,expect to get at least a doz response in a second. Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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Let's keep this thread on point please, thank you. The point of this thread is very specifically one precise painting in Sefar supposedly depicting an Ancient Egyptian pose labeled "striking the enemies."
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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In this excerpt we see Coppens sourcing Wim Zitman for both Tassili birthing Egyptian civilization and the "smiting the enemies" motif.
quote:... Wim Zitman... argues for a connection between the rock paintings of the Tassili and the origin of the Egyptian civilisation, wondering whether the shamans of the Tassili might not have been the “Followers of Horus” that have been the subject of so much speculation in the past decade by the likes of Robert Bauval and Graham Hancock. Rather than from the mythical Atlantis, might they have come from a region southeast of the Atlas mountains, i.e. the Tassili?
Zitman offers a novel point of departure for the Shemsu Hor (Followers of Horus) travelling from Tassili to Egypt whereas we know their route was from upriver in Sudan downriver toward Egypt.
Nonetheless neither Coppens nor his source Zitman is proposing an Egypt to Algeria movement of motifs or people.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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Before getting to the heart of the "smiter" matter let's look at two peripheral pieces
quote:For Zitman, the origin of ancient Egypt can be found in a culture and area that stretches into the Tassili, where there is the pose painted on a cliff face in Sefar that would later adorn the front walls of several Egyptian temples. And that cannot be a coincidence.
I strongly agree there cannot be a coincidence involved here but for a reason far from what Coppens supposes. There cannot be a coincidence because I say there is no "smiter" at Sefar as analysis of photographic evidence will show.
In fairness it's Coppens who's placing overemphasis on the Sefar "smiter" as seen here
quote:... a religious doctrine, [] began to be written down on the cliff faces, including the “Great fishing god”, which by 3500 BC became incorporated in Dynastic Egypt as the symbol of Pharaonic control and which would throughout Egypt’s history be depicted on its great temple walls.
Let's just note that again Algeria is preceding and giving direction to Egypt per Coppens. But just what is it the Zitman actually says?
posted
Coppens sets a stage placing Zitman at odds with Lhote
quote:Sefar. Little is written about the city. Lhote does not provide many details, except a map, showing its extent, as well as the presence of several streets and avenues, tumuli, tombs and something that he calls the “esplanade of the Great Fishing God”. Lhote named the character as he seemed to be carrying fish. But a closer inspection of the photograph that successive expeditions have taken, suggests what Zitman had always felt could be the truth: rather than a “fishing god”, was this character not depicted in a pose that the ancient Egyptians knew as “smiting the enemy”? It was a pose that was used by the Pharaohs to display their mastery over the forces of chaos.
The “Great Fishing God” of Sefar is thus potential evidence that there is indeed a link between Egypt and the Tassili.
But Zitman has a book of his own,
Willem H. Zitman Egypt: "Image of Heaven": The Planisphere And the Lost Cradle Adventures Unlimited Press, 2006.
In it he has a sub-chapter Lhote's Discovery of the Prehistoric Rock-Painting called Nekhet. There Zitman makes an Egyptian connection case for a painting not found in Sefar but at Tin Tazarift called "the Swimmer" and identified with an image of Nekhen dated to 1190 BCE in a Ramesside era. But Zitman does have a lot to say about the "smiting the enemies" pose.
posted
Good content, which is hard to come by these days on ES.
-------------------- The Complete Picture of the Past tells Us what Not to Repeat Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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^ What about evidence of trade routes from Egypt to Western Africa via Chad? I have heard theories of such trade occurring as early as proto-dynastic times if not predynastic times.
Posts: 26300 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Before getting to the heart of the "smiter" matter let's look at two peripheral pieces
quote:For Zitman, the origin of ancient Egypt can be found in a culture and area that stretches into the Tassili, where there is the pose painted on a cliff face in Sefar that would later adorn the front walls of several Egyptian temples. And that cannot be a coincidence.
I strongly agree there cannot be a coincidence involved here but for a reason far from what Coppens supposes. There cannot be a coincidence because I say there is no "smiter" at Sefar as analysis of photographic evidence will show.
In fairness it's Coppens who's placing overemphasis on the Sefar "smiter" as seen here
quote:... a religious doctrine, [] began to be written down on the cliff faces, including the “Great fishing god”, which by 3500 BC became incorporated in Dynastic Egypt as the symbol of Pharaonic control and which would throughout Egypt’s history be depicted on its great temple walls.
Let's just note that again Algeria is preceding and giving direction to Egypt per Coppens. But just what is it the Zitman actually says?
I've been enthralled in Wally's thread, and really dont have much time to post here M - F. Since Wally's thread is winding down, this one caugh tmy eye today, so let's begin.
If you read the piece thoroughly, you will see that it ws an earlier expedition by Lhote that gave the name "Great Fishing God". This was Lhote's characterization and his alone. It was later expeditions in which closer inpections were given that Zitman then likened them more to the "Smiting of Enemies", and this is the image you find on Egyptian temple walls.
quote:Lhote named the character as he seemed to be carrying fish. But a closer inspection of the photograph that successive expeditions have taken, suggests what Zitman had always felt could be the truth: rather than a “fishing god”, was this character not depicted in a pose that the ancient Egyptians knew as “smiting the enemy”? It was a pose that was used by the Pharaohs to display their mastery over the forces of chaos.
As for the dates, if you read this piece carefully, you would see they gave 5000 B.C. and earlier due to the fact that a wild Buffalo with long horns, which were painted on the Tassili rocks, became extinct at that time, thus is what archaeologist used to date the paintings:
quote:One of the most prominent and common representations is the Bubalus Antiqus, the ancestor of modern domesticated cattle, resembling the modern east African buffalo, but with much larger horns. As it became extinct around 5000 BC, it has allowed archaeologists to date the Tassili rock paintings.
This coincided with similar rock paintings found between the Nile and Red Sea by Toby Wilkinson:
quote:These depictions are very similar if not identical to what was discovered by the likes of Toby Wilkinson in similar sites and similar rock paintings in the region between the Nile and the Red Sea. He dated these paintings to the 5th millennium BC, which overlaps with the paintings of the Tassili.
So there were rock paintings from Tassili, to the Red Sea, and not covered by this piece further in West Africa. Nothing gave a direction or whether one site preceded the other. The title is merely meant to drag in readers...marketing 101. As you can see within this article:
quote:For Wilkinson, these rock paintings show that pre-Pharaonic Egyptians were not settled flood-plain farmers, but semi-nomadic herders who drove their cattle in between the lush riverbanks and the drier grasslands. He also identified that several of these paintings were located around ancient trade routes. For a “semi-nomadic people”, it is by no means a long stretch of the imagination to argue that they trekked throughout the savannah, from east to west and backwards . And thus, in Pre-dynastic Egypt, Egypt and the Tassili were more than likely “one”.
They also quoted Lhote, though it sounds a bit "Hamitic" to me:
quote:"The most common profile suggested that of Ethiopians, and it was almost certainly from the east that these great waves of pastoralist immigrants came who invaded not only the Tassili but much of the Sahara.”
So they used an extinct animal here to place the paintings to at least 5000 B.C. and earlier at BOTH the Nile to Red Sea rock art sites AND the Tassili.
If you have a link to provide that these have been radio-carbon dated, given that the Tassili site is difficult to access due to political unrest (hostages were taken in some expeditions as noted in this article), please post it for the forum.
Posts: 455 | From: Tharsis Montes | Registered: Jan 2009
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Well, bring it on, flesh it out. Don't expect me to do it for you. Be sure to list the items of trade in both directions and where the items were produced pre-trade.
Let's try to do things here like you do in the classroom without speculation or loose recollection but with hard facts and supporting evidence, please.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ What about evidence of trade routes from Egypt to Western Africa via Chad? I have heard theories of such trade occurring as early as proto-dynastic times if not predynastic times.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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Zitman defines "smiting the enemies" as a ritual pose of a king of Egypt
quote:
in which he uses one fist to hold one or more enemies by the hair, while his other arm is raised, this fist brandishing a battle-axe or some other kind of weapon. Zitman Egypt p. 53
Does Zitman rename the painting Lhote called the Great Fishing God (Grand Dieu Pêcheur)? I can only find him mention Lhote naming an open space the "square of the Fish God." But I do not find Zitman contesting Lhote on the name of this painting
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
"Smiting the enemies" is a major theme for Zitman. He associates it with the constellation Orion.
But when it comes to the "square of the Fishing God" Zitman's associations are with the Nommo. Now I don't know what ol' Grand Dieu Pêcheur is dangling, but a Nommo is as good a guess as any.
I do know his pose is neither that of Orion or any Egyptian king "smiting the enemies" nor does it fit Zitman's written description posted above.
The whole idea of Grand Dieu Pecheur being renamed for "smiting the enemies" has nothing to do with Zitman or any expedition (or the numerous plain old tourists visiting the site weekly) but springs from the mind of Philip Coppens.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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Now this is the topic right here. I picked up that book by Laird, this is very interesting stuff.
Posts: 3423 | From: the jungle - when y'all stop playing games, call me. | Registered: Jul 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ What about evidence of trade routes from Egypt to Western Africa via Chad? I have heard theories of such trade occurring as early as proto-dynastic times if not predynastic times.
Seems Al-takruri just doesn't want you as his b**ch anymore, but perhaps it was Wadi Howar that you indeed heard of.
quote:Located at the southern fringes of the Libyan Desert, Wadi Howar is the largest dry river system in the presently hyper-arid and uninhabitable Eastern Sahara, stretching over 1,100 km from its source area in eastern Chad to the Nile. Geoscientific investigations have shown that during the early Holocene this wadi was the Nile's most important tributary from the Sahara. Later, it became a chain of freshwater lakes and marshes supported by local rainfall, until it ultimately became extinct about 2,000 years ago. A once ecologically favoured area of settlement and communication route between the inner regions of Africa and the Nile valley, Wadi Howar bears abundant prehistoric sites providing evidence of important population movements and interregional cultural contacts
Also, the abundance of "mushroom" like patterns in both Tassili rock art and Nile Valley art at El-Hosh proves without doubt there was cultural contact, With the Nile Valley being the pre-cursor:
quote:German explorer and ethnographer Hans Winkler surveyed the area in the 1930s and published a number of the drawings. These include bizarre-looking curvilinear designs, capped with mushroom-shaped protuberances
Tassili
quote:He saw figures that were sprouting mushrooms all over their bodies, like at Matalen-Amazar and Ti-n-Tazarift. Others were holding them in their hands, and still other figures were hybrids of mushrooms and humans. He noted that there was one depiction of a shaman in antler headgear with a bee’s face, clutching mushrooms
Posts: 455 | From: Tharsis Montes | Registered: Jan 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ What about evidence of trade routes from Egypt to Western Africa via Chad? I have heard theories of such trade occurring as early as proto-dynastic times if not predynastic times.
Seems Al-takruri just doesn't want you as his b**ch anymore, but perhaps it was Wadi Howar that you indeed heard of.
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: "Smiting the enemies" is a major theme for Zitman. He associates it with the constellation Orion.
But when it comes to the "square of the Fishing God" Zitman's associations are with the Nommo. Now I don't know what ol' Grand Dieu Pêcheur is dangling, but a Nommo is as good a guess as any.
I do know his pose is neither that of Orion or any Egyptian king "smiting the enemies" nor does it fit Zitman's written description posted above.
The whole idea of Grand Dieu Pecheur being renamed for "smiting the enemies" has nothing to do with Zitman or any expedition (or the numerous plain old tourists visiting the site weekly) but springs from the mind of Philip Coppens.
So I take it that you believe, or is taking the liberty to assume that Coppens is lying when he said it was Zitman who believed it to be akin to the "Smiting of Enemies" in the article:
quote:But a closer inspection of the photograph that successive expeditions have taken, suggests what Zitman had always felt could be the truth: rather than a “fishing god”, was this character not depicted in a pose that the ancient Egyptians knew as “smiting the enemy
Why would Coppens need to lie about this if I understand you correctly?
Posts: 455 | From: Tharsis Montes | Registered: Jan 2009
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The evidence in my series of posts speak loudly for themselves. There is no disputing them as they are direct citation of Coppens, Zitman, the Sefar rock painting of the Grand Dieu Pêcheur, astronomy, and Seti I themselves.
Conclusion:, there's no Sefar "smiter" outside of Coppens' vivid imagination.
Only a properly cited quote referenced from Zitman can void that conclusion. Come back only when you can produce one.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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You have much unattended work waiting you in the parent thread in the form of six questions you keep running from.
Six times now I've asked you to man up but childlike you shirk responsibility. Yu have lost face by failing to answer.
"Ya a runnin an ya runnin an ya runnin away, but you cyaan run away from yasef, no no no."
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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Yeh like you providing evidence Jews the world over are descendants of children of Israel? lol
Posts: 4165 | From: jamaica | Registered: May 2008
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: To theFrenchman
You have much unattended work waiting you in the parent thread in the form of six questions you keep running from.
Six times now I've asked you to man up but childlike you shirk responsibility. Yu have lost face by failing to answer.
"Ya a runnin an ya runnin an ya runnin away, but you cyaan run away from yasef, no no no."
The answers lie in the work provided by Moussa Lam linked there, and I've also asked you for this same evidence for the same time-frame to prove they were somewhere else if not the Nile Valley, yet NADA!! At least Clyde provided the wavy line ceramics to support our side, yet can't you find these somewhere in Senegal or Morroco for the same time-frame?
As far as the "Smiter" being the imagination of Coppens and lying on Zitman, I don't watch soap operas.
Also, the "Smiter" being the imagination of Coppens, is just as much so the "Great Fishing God" being the imagination of Lhote, and the "Nommo" being the imagination of Zitman with regards to this rock art. Regardless of any imagination, it's undeniable that this specific painting resemble the "Smiting" paintings of the Nile Valley. I don't need any of the men above to tell me that. I have eyes too.
Posts: 455 | From: Tharsis Montes | Registered: Jan 2009
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You sure have a funny way to concede defeat. Not only do you not watch soap operas you don't do reading comprehension or critical analysis.
I have successfully shown that Coppens is the author of the idea that the Grand Dieu Pêcheur should be renamed "smiting the enemies."
Coppens claims it's Zitman's idea yet no such concept appears in Zitman's book Egypt.
I have juxtaposed images of Grand Dieu Pêcheur, the constellation Orion, and Seti I striking the "smiting the enemies" pose for compare and contrast between the three to see which match the description
quote:one fist to hold one or more enemies by the hair, while his other arm is raised, this fist brandishing a battle-axe or some other kind of weapon
Every reader can judge for theirself whether it's Zitman or Coppens who's challenging Lhote and if the Grand Dieu Pêcheur's two upraised arms with fingers extended looks anything like Seti I with a mace in the closed fist of one upraised arm and the fist of the other arm, which is held straight out, grasping the hair of enemies.
Moral of the story: Grand Dieu Pêcheur is not what you argue it to be and if you weren't gullible you wouldn't have fallen for it.
I'm glad you brought it up as a lesson in what a journalist untrained in Egyptology, ethnology, or archaeology will do to the unwary. No Egyptologist or other related academician has even noticed this stuff from Coppens. You on the otherhand ... But then who can blame a drowning man from grasping at straws? Perhaps the Tin Tazarift "Swimmer?"
___________________________________________ The only thing the Great Fishing God resembles
is the Great God of Sefar, another painting from the same Round Head era LSA Algerian town. By studying the two of them, and others like them, we could learn a lot about this LSA SE Alerian civilization other than abusing it as a doormat for Egyptian daydreaming.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
You quite honestly are showing that puberty is still coursing through your veins with the immaturity displayed. If you have a problem with what Coppens wrote, instead of accusing the man, someone you personally don't know, of being a liar, why don't you e-mail him and correspond directly Detective Al? Then you somehow implicate me for simply bringing this information and point of view out for more to see? Honestly, what type of "critical analysis" can YOU personally do having NEVER been to neither Sefar or the Nile Valley? Throwing around all these innuendos about people you have never met about an historic site you have never been to. Really?
Maybe some "Egyptologist" have never made the claim because the great majority of them NEVER leave Egypt! Most of them won't even cross the border into Sudan for crying out loud! Much less all the work that has yet to be discovered in the Horn.
Makes for a juicy soap opera don't you think? Why would Coppens feel the need to lie on Zitman? What is the motive to lie on another person when he already writes his own books and does his own lectures? Wouldn't that discredit all his work and what he does on the book and lecture circuit? Why hasn't Zitman come out to distance himself from claiming such a thing by now? ?? Get on it Detective Pubes!!! This is gettin juicy!
As for the painting itself, to YOU it's just a "God of Sefar". To YOU it somehow means Tassili and SE Algeria would be a "doormat" to Egyptian pharoanic society. To others, it simply means Sefar may have had connections to the Nile Valley. Something that is pretty much indisputable at this point as more information arises. To others it simply adds another piece to the story of that part of Africa at that time. Don't go immaturily throwing your own pubescent opinions on what YOU think it means to others.
Also, comparing a rock art painting, painted on the rough surface of rock, to a painting done at a later date, on intentionally cut smooth stone blocks makes no sense. If you want to make a comparison, then compare it to some other ROCK ART of that time period. You are comparing artwork seperated by THOUSANDS of years.
As you can see, not even all of the "Smiter" carvings in Egypt are the exact same compared to the ONE you showed:
Whether it brings out the 16 year old in you or not, I cetainly can see the similarities, while noting one is from an earlier time period and less refined. ALL ideas have a beginning and as they grow, become more refined and more exact in their meaning. It's a simple thing to see here. At the end of the day, I only take it as something to think about. But you....the Great Egyptologist that has NEVER been to Egypt, probably not even Africa has it ALL figured out???
ALL of it is conjecture, but everyone is entitled to their opinion. No need to charge strangers with lying or call names because your own OPINION differs from theirs.
Now get on it Detective. Let's find out the true story... Posts: 455 | From: Tharsis Montes | Registered: Jan 2009
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quote:Some of the rock paintings also show boats, such as at Sefar and Aouanrhet. These depictions are very similar if not identical to what was discovered by the likes of Toby Wilkinson in similar sites and similar rock paintings in the region between the Nile and the Red Sea.
quote:For Wilkinson, these rock paintings show that pre-Pharaonic Egyptians were not settled flood-plain farmers, but semi-nomadic herders who drove their cattle in between the lush riverbanks and the drier grasslands. He also identified that several of these paintings were located around ancient trade routes
Getem Detective Pubes!! Posts: 455 | From: Tharsis Montes | Registered: Jan 2009
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Well, bring it on, flesh it out. Don't expect me to do it for you. Be sure to list the items of trade in both directions and where the items were produced pre-trade.
Let's try to do things here like you do in the classroom without speculation or loose recollection but with hard facts and supporting evidence, please.
First of all, I just raised the question. It's not a premise that I support since I don't know much about and have read it from a few sources. I was just hoping if you knew more about it. Second of all, the reason I brought it up was I thought it would help explain any diffusion or movement of cultural concepts between Egypt and the western Sahara. I don't argue one way or the other whether Egypt to Tasili or vice-versa. You know my personal premise is simply common origins in the Sahara period. I will try to find more about this Chadic trade-route on my own if you don't have the info.
quote:Originally posted by The Gaul: Seems Al-takruri just doesn't want you as his b**ch anymore, but perhaps it was Wadi Howar that you indeed heard of.
Oh please don't take your anger out on me. Djehuti is b**ch to nobody. Takruri and I have had our disagreements and misunderstandings in the past but at least I'm man enough to settle it with him. Do not be an Openass as one is enough for this forum!
And yes I do recall it was a Wadi in Chad where this route was discovered.
Posts: 26300 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Continuing from post 7
Zitman defines "smiting the enemies" as a ritual pose of a king of Egypt
quote:
in which he uses one fist to hold one or more enemies by the hair, while his other arm is raised, this fist brandishing a battle-axe or some other kind of weapon. Zitman Egypt p. 53
I believe the ritual weapon used to smite the enemies is the 'pear-shaped' mace, as it is the most common weapon used in the smiting scenes and is almost always found buried with deceased kings and even royal women since predynastic times.
quote:Does Zitman rename the painting Lhote called the Great Fishing God (Grand Dieu Pêcheur)? I can only find him mention Lhote naming an open space the "square of the Fish God." But I do not find Zitman contesting Lhote on the name of this painting
I don't know about a "fishing" god, but I am aware of fish god or deity represented by a fish totem that was worshipped by various peoples across the Sahara from the Hausa in Western Africa to peoples in Chad. Even the earliest Hausa founding legends make reference to a fish deity.
Posts: 26300 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
DJ I bumped up a Saharan thread for stuff about trade and what not. Anyway that was a friendly increase-the-knowledge challenge not banter for barnyard bantam bouting. So please clue us in, doubtless the main routes used after Islam were in use for centuries if not millenia before Islam and we know portions of the routes go back to the stone age because of the presence of local works crafted from imported materials in damn near every region be it forest or Green Sahara.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Oh please don't take your anger out on me. Djehuti is b**ch to nobody. Takruri and I have had our disagreements and misunderstandings in the past but at least I'm man enough to settle it with him. Do not be an Openass as one is enough for this forum!
And yes I do recall it was a Wadi in Chad where this route was discovered. [/QB]
No pubescent anger here. Where do you detect this? Just an observation...purely made in jest
As for this painting, again, to purely base an argument on the artistic side, between artworks seperated by thousands of years does not hold.
What can't be ignored, besides the similarity in artwork, is the underlying essence is that of one who controls the land , i.e. one who controls the forces of chaos:
quote:But a closer inspection of the photograph that successive expeditions have taken, suggests what Zitman had always felt could be the truth: rather than a “fishing god”, was this character not depicted in a pose that the ancient Egyptians knew as “smiting the enemy”? It was a pose that was used by the Pharaohs to display their mastery over the forces of chaos .
Also of note is that within both pieces of artwork from the NV and Sefar, is that it is of obviously an important person, since both are figures that wear a crown of some sort, whether it be a pharoah, king, or god figure.
As for the constant reference to a "Fishing God", again, there is only ONE man who made that reference, and his name is Henri Lhote. There still i sno consensus on what the Sefar figure is holding in it's left hand, and neither the septor-like figure in the right. How can you let ONE man define something thousands of years before his time, in a land he has no links to, while denying what others see in the artwork, is quite shallow and agenda driven behavior.
Posts: 455 | From: Tharsis Montes | Registered: Jan 2009
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Other researchers, notably Wim Zitman, have identified an astronomic connotation to the various figures. He specifically focuses his attention on the so-called “swimmer”, depicted at Ti-n-Tazarift, and argues that this is in fact the depiction of a constellation. He also argues for a connection between the rock paintings of the Tassili and the origin of the Egyptian civilisation, wondering whether the shamans of the Tassili might not have been the “Followers of Horus” that have been the subject of so much speculation in the past decade by the likes of Robert Bauval and Graham Hancock. Rather than from the mythical Atlantis, might they have come from a region southeast of the Atlas mountains, i.e. the Tassili?
... seemed kinda interesting to me after seeing Myra's posting of this depiction from the Sefar Tassili N' Ajjer site.
Just found it interesting light of the fact Dogon knowledge was "perplexing" enough for them to wonder about them having had contact with Ancient Kemetians or people Kemetians had contact with, rather than the possible chance Kemetians' ancestors just might have met the Dogans'!
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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Let me quote you: "As for this painting, again, to purely base an argument on the artistic side, between artworks seperated by thousands of years does not hold." Now let me ask you. Then why do you persist in doing just that?
I have shown that Zitman makes no such appraisal. I since I've cited Zitman's complete sub-chapter on Lhote and shown that Zitman references not the Great Fishing God at Sefar but the Swimmer at Tin Tazarift, you must produce a quote in support of what you keep posting in proof of its validity or admit it does not hold water.
Having been asked to do this repeatedly already, and with your failure to comply, is proof enough you can't find Zitman saying any such thing. To rely on Coppens supposedly relying on Zitman is a but a chain of imagination. What's more, it's a piss poor research methodology.
It's archaeological fact we want here not some journalist's unsupported suppositions.
You may continue dissembling but the astute are not swayed by anything except facts, all grand standing aside.
quote:Originally posted by The Gaul:
As for this painting, again, to purely base an argument on the artistic side, between artworks seperated by thousands of years does not hold.
What can't be ignored, besides the similarity in artwork, is the underlying essence is that of one who controls the land , i.e. one who controls the forces of chaos:
posted
All subsequent reports since Lhote generally retain his labels. Zitman, in particular raises no complaint over Lhote's labelling of the Great Fishing God
But, pray tell, are you not doing the very thing you're protesting, using one man to define something 1000s of years before his time in a land he has no links to?
And as you yourself are a Frenchman, you should be the last to grandstand about a land one has no attachment to.
quote:Originally posted by The Gaul: How can you let ONE man define something thousands of years before his time, in a land he has no links to, while denying what others see in the artwork, is quite shallow and agenda driven behavior.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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Here we see the "smiting the enemies" pose in the constellation Orion and on a temple facade of Seti I. Duly note, one arm is outstretched while the other arm is raised forming, from arm to arm, a 90° angle.
Also see the Great Fishing God in a more than anything else, "hands up" or a "behold" pose, forming a letter W. Its fists aren't clenched but its fingers are opened.
Orion/Seti I and the Great Fishing God aren't nearly striking the same pose.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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^ The picture is not that clear. What is he holding? A fish or an enemy by the hair??
Posts: 26300 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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I dunno what the objects are even after zoom. I can't say its holding them because the fingers are open not clenched into fists.
An argument can be made for a 'was'-like scepter and a human head dangling by the hair.
But again I'd look to similar art right there in this Tassili for explanation rather than a place and time over 1000 miles and 3000 years away.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: In this thread I want to examine the so-called "smiting of enemies" painting in Sefar by using the source theGaul pulls it from.
The very title tells the direction of travel or influence, Tassili the elder originator to AE the younger receptor. That is what the author, Philip Coppens is proposing. This is the exact opposite of what theGaul supposes, origin and movement from Egypt to Tassili.
I've tried to explain this several times but each time it is ignored as if ignorance will make it go away.
quote:Originally posted by The Gaul:
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri:
Harping on one piece from Sefar is disengenius as that piece is not indicative of Fulani culture and so bears no relevance to Fulani origins in KM.t
I would remind once again that SE Algeria is not Egypt. Nothing ... shows a date contemporaneous to Ancient Egypt nor transposition from the Nile Valley to the Tassili massif.
... Tassili preceded Ancient Egypt and the smiter motif first appeared in Sefar before later showing up in Egypt.
This is consistent with what we know of the middle and lower Nile Valley absorbing immigrants from the drying Green Sahara as well as those moving downstream from Sudan.
the "smiting of enemies" rock art painting is clearly similar to Dynastic Egypt. Perhaps you missed this?
can you please do me a favor? I need to find the link that had the picture of Septimius Severus the black emporer of Rome again...
I seen it in this site one day and forgot to copy the pic into my library....
You seem to be one of the very knowledgable ones that frequent this site...
can you help me?...
Posts: 81 | From: Newark, Nj | Registered: Aug 2008
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Honestly, what type of "critical analysis" can YOU personally do having NEVER been to neither Sefar or the Nile Valley? Throwing around all these innuendos about people you have never met about an historic site you have never been to. Really? 
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