quote:Originally posted by cassiterides: It may be strange to YOU, but experts on ancient Peruvian civilization NEVER claim these people were blonde or red-headed when they were alive. The same is true for Egyptologists who never speak of Egyptians as blondes or red-heads only YOU and your Nazi ilk since it was the Nazis who called the ancient Peruvians "Aryan ancestors" due to the hair color of the mummies =========
All incorrect.
There were redheads among the Peruvians, just like the Easter Islanders.
The ethnologist Thor Heyerdahl wrote a book on this called Aku-Aku - he also took pictures of redhaired native easter islanders.
The mayor of Easter Island, Hei, who claimed to be a "pure bred" long ear is seated second from the left, front row. Second from the right, front row, is his son, Juan (note his bright red hair).
- They clearly look Caucasoid, however other racial ancestry proposed is Ainu. And the Ainu were noted to be red haired. Herdayl left the origin of this fair haired race open (either it was a fair branch of polynesians, caucasoids or ainu).
I looked up your source, and it showed the most rediclious nazi crap ever. And you don't even feel ashamed of this?
Stop trying to claim other peoples history. Your ancestors came from the forests and caves of Europe. Be proud of that.
Ainu according to Japanese,
Ainu chiefs played an important role in their society. Each Ainu village was administered by three hereditary chiefs. Interestingly, they were not allowed to judge criminals. This function was performed by other members of the community.
The Ainu are a distinctive ethnic group which used to have a culture completely different from that of the Japanese. This culture was virtually destroyed during the Meiji Period when policies aimed at assimilating the Ainu into Japanese culture outlawed their language and restricted their activities.
The word Ainu is derived from the word Aynu, which means human. These days some Ainu prefer the term Utari. During the Edo Period they were often referred to as Ezo, Yezo or Emishi. Although the Ainu probably inhabited large areas of Japan, they are now mainly found in Hokkaido.
During the 20th century heated debate raged over the origins of the Ainu. This was finally settled by the mid 1990’s when genetic studies showed that they are “the descendants of Japan’s ancient Jomon inhabitants, mixed with Korean genes of Yayoi colonists and of the modern Japanese.”1
1 Diamond, Jared (June, 1998). Japanese Roots. Discover Magazine Vol. 19: 86-94.
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OKI DUB AINU BAND friends o mine played at one of my events about four yrs ago if there is a way to describe their attitude to wards life it would be kinda like certain native American traditional communities the old guy told me the difference between the Ainu and the Japanese is the Japanese take of nature but they let nature take of them. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_X9QxFaHJwAPosts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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''There is peer reviewed evidence of blacks/ Africans in the Roman army'' =======
Nope there isn't.
There is evidence of Berbers (Libyans) as having been used as Roman mercenaries but not sub-saharan black africans.
And the Libyans were never black.
No scholar believes there were blacks in Roman Britain. Only cranks believe this, or even worse people with a political agenda (mostly multicultralists or white liberals etc).
Posts: 2408 | From: My mother's basement | Registered: Dec 2010
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- A politically motivated jew who has written a book on ''The History of Anti-Semitism''. Not a qualified source on India's ancient history.
Posts: 2408 | From: My mother's basement | Registered: Dec 2010
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^^ Build it and they will come. You create a thread on 'Looney Toons' and who else shows up but the loons?? Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by cassiterides: ''There is peer reviewed evidence of blacks/ Africans in the Roman army'' =======
Nope there isn't.
There is evidence of Berbers (Libyans) as having been used as Roman mercenaries but not sub-saharan black africans.
And the Libyans were never black.
No scholar believes there were blacks in Roman Britain. Only cranks believe this, or even worse people with a political agenda (mostly multicultralists or white liberals etc).
First of all, there are "black" (dark skinned) Lybian tribes.
Second of all, recorded history tells firmly that "black Africans" were present in Britain, by the Roman army.. You can write all the rubbish you like. The facts are in place and remain the same, they were there and Vikings knew about them.
Your insertion on no scholars blah blah is only more proof that you are not well educated on the subject, and in general, since most of your claims are plain stupid and ridiculous.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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- A politically motivated jew who has written a book on ''The History of Anti-Semitism''. Not a qualified source on India's ancient history.
Well, what are your credentials on India's history?
Indian scholars in the field of Indian history will dispel your claims too. And opposed by prominent historians like Ramesh Chandra Mazumdar and archeologists like Rakhaldas Banerjee and S.P.Gupta. I've heard many Indian people disputing your claims.
Your "real history" is at Europe, in the caves and forests of Europe.
Demise of the Aryan Invasion Theory
By Dr.Dinesh Agrawal
Aryan Race and Invasion Theory is not a subject of academic interest only, rather it conditions our perception of India's historical evolution, the sources of her ancient glorious heritage, and indigenous socio-economic-political institutions which have been developed over the millennia. Consequently, the validity or invalidity of this theory has an obvious and strong bearing on the contemporary Indian political and social landscape as well as the future of Indian nationalism. The subject matter is as relevant today as it was a hundred years ago when it was cleverly introduced in the school text books by British rulers.
This is far outrageous fun, watching the Loons post their lunacy; the above was cherry picked from a site on Greek mythology -
but was careful to ignore this Greek myth also cited...
"THE MELANOKHROTOI were a tribe of black-skinned men of the Libyan desert ruled by a king with a single eye in the middle of his forehead." (i.e., the Cyclops)
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retard above, learn to read, from that link -
Hesiod, Catalogues of Women Frag 40A (from the Oxyrhynchus Papyri 1358) (trans. Evelyn-White) (Greek epic C8th or 7th B.C.) : "The tribes of the boundless Melanokhrotoi (Melanochroti) (Black-Skins) and the Libyes (Libyans). Huge Gaia (the Earth) bare these to Epaphos . . . Aithiopes (Ethiopians) and Libyes (Libyans)."
Note how the Libyans were not classified as ''Black-skins'' for the obvious reason they were not dark.
Posts: 2408 | From: My mother's basement | Registered: Dec 2010
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^ Actually 'melanochroti' means very black and not just black which is 'melanos'. Funny how that source says Gaia gave birth to Libyes and Aithiopes together as siblings...
Anyway, moving on and ignoring the nazi-idiot...
Siptah here are more Egyptian profiles similar to the ones you and Dahoslips were debating about.
Obviously not the faces of white people or "caucasians".
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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^ Indeed. The issue was the profile of 18th dynasty Lady Tawy and others in her husband's mural showing such profiles. What does that 21st dynasty image have to do with anything which by the way would still fit in among black Africans.
The Lyinass productions FAILED.
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Wally, who thinks the hut-dwelling Massi represent a continuation of Egyptian civilization, has no right calling anyone else a loony.
Djehuti's Egyptians look perfecly like modern Egyptians. There is no doubt that the Egyptian people and Egyptian civilization stayed in Egypt. No people anywhere else in Africa have ancient Egyptian blood in their veins. Only Egyptians do. The afrocentrist attempt to hijack the history of Egypt for unrelated peoples doesn't get any more convincing. The Egyptians were clearly mostly caucasoid, not negroid.
quote:Originally posted by cassiterides: First of all, there are "black" (dark skinned) Lybian tribes. =======
Incorrect.
The Libyans are described in classical texts as fair (red or blonde) haired and white skinned.
They also appear in greek artwork as blondes.
Antaios the Libyan (as blonde and redhead) -
Very 'black' indeed.
============== Second of all, recorded history tells firmly that "black Africans" were present in Britain, by the Roman army ==============
Again, another lie.
Good luck listing these sources.
Within Roman occupied Africa, the bulk of the population of was composed of three major population groups: the Berber tribes (such as Numidians, Gaetulians and Maurusiani), the ancient Carthaginians of Phoenician origin and Roman colonists. The Berbers were a dark skinned native African people that spoke a common language and shared ethnic characteristics. Besides the Afri in the regions controlled by Carthage, the tribes that took part in the wars against the Romans were the Lotophagi, the Garamantes, the Maces, the Nasamones, the Misulani or Musulamii, the Massyli and the Massaesyli.
Museum Collection: Tampa Museum of Art, Tampa, Florida, USA Catalogue Number: Tampa 86.29 Beazley Archive Number: 351170 Ware: Attic Black Figure Shape: Amphora, neck Painter: Attributed to the Michigan Painter Date: ca 490 - 480 BC Period: Late Archaic
SUMMARY
Herakles wrestles the Libyan giant Antaios
K12.12 DIONYSOS, ARIADNE & SATYROI
Museum Collection: Musée du Louvre, Paris, France Catalogue Number: Louvre F204 Beazley Archive Number: 200011 Ware: Attic Bilingual Shape: Amphora Painter: Attributed to the Andokides Painter and Lysippides Painter Date: ca 520 - 510 BC Period: Archaic
SUMMARY
Side A: Herakles and Kerberos (see other image) Side B: Dionysos holding a fruiting grape vine in one hand and a wine jar in the other, stands beside his wife Ariadne (or a Mainas Nymphe) and three Satyroi, bearing wine-skin, lyre and fillets.
NOTE This is a montage of several photos of the vase.
Museum Collection: Cabinet des Medailles, Paris, France Catalogue No.: Paris Medailles 222 Beazley Archive No.: 310452 Ware: Attic Black Figure Shape: Neck Amphora Painter: The Amasis Painter Date: ca 540 - 530 BC Period: Archaic
SUMMARY
Side A: A pair of Mainades, draped with vines and a panther skin, present a hare to Dionysos. The god holds a wine-cup.
Side B: Athene & Poseidon (see other image)
K12.18 DIONYSOS, ARIADNE, HERMES, SATYR Museum Collection: British Museum, London, UK Catalogue No.: London B168 Beazley Archive No.: 310371 Ware: Attic Bilingual Shape: Amphora B Painter: Attributed to Towry Whyte Painter or Nr: Group E Date: ca 575 - 525 BC Period: Archaic
SUMMARY
Dionysos stands beside his wife Ariadne who is holding two of their sons, probably Oinopion "Full of WIne" and Staphylos "Bunch of Grapes." They are attended by the god Hermes and a Satyros. Dionysos holds a drinking horn and a fruiting vine. The Satyros has a strand of ivy.
K19.1 THE BIRTH OF ATHENE
Museum Collection: Antikenmuseen, Berlin, Germany Catalogue Number: Berlin F1704 Beazley Archive Number: 310014 Ware: Attic Black Figure Shape: Tyrrhenian amphora Painter: Attributed to the Kyllenios Painter Date: ca 570 - 560 BC Period: Archaic
SUMMARY
The goddess Athene is birthed from the skull of Zeus. The god sits on a crane-backed chair, holding a lightning bolt in his left hand. Two Eileithyiai, goddesses of childbirth, stand on either side with arms raised to release the child. To the left is Hermes with his herald wand, and Hephaistos (or Prometheus) stepping away with the axe used to split open the head of the god. Beside him (head only shown in this image) is Dionysos.
NOTEThis image is a montage of several photos of the vase.
K14.8 PUNISHMENT OF SISYPHOS IN HADES
Museum Collection: Antikensammlungen, Munich, Germany Catalogue No.: Munich J728 Beazley Archive No.: 30240 Ware: Attic Black Figure Shape: Amphora, neck Painter: Attributed to the Acheloos Painter Date: -- Period: Archaic
SUMMARY
The criminal Sisyphos is condemned to roll a rock up a hill for eternity in the Land of the Dead. The gods Haides and Persephone sit on either side of him, one hodling sheafs of wheat, the othera royal sceptre.
Museum Collection: British Museum, London, United Kingdom Catalogue Number: London 1971.11-1.1 Beazley Archive Number: 350099 Ware: Attic Black Figure Shape: Dinos Painter: Signed by Sophilos Date: ca 580 BC Period: Archaic
SUMMARY
A procession of gods arrive at the wedding of Peleus and Thetis. First to arrive are the goddesses Leto and Khariklo, the wife of Kheiron, who walk side by side. Then comes Dionysos holding a vine, and the youthful Hebe dressed in white. The Kentauros Kheiron follows, holding a bow and a branch hung with the fruits of the hunt - hares and a deer. He is shown with the foreparts of a man, including feet, and the rear-quarters of a horse. Behind him walk the goddess Themis and her three Nymphai daughters.
NOTE This image is a montage of several photos of the vase.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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...here is what the neo-nazi loon goon is misinterpreting or incapable of comprehending when he posts: "Wally, who thinks the hut-dwelling Massi represent a continuation of Egyptian civilization, has no right calling anyone else a loony." - then he posts a picture of a Masai gentleman standing in front of a hut - fool doesn't even know that "hut" is the fundamental Mdu Ntr word for 'temple' derived from its southern origin...
quote:It is generally understood, that in the modern era China was the most recalcitrant nation on the planet, smugly resting on its ancient historical superiority laurels over the 'western devils' while Japan embraced this new phenomena and left China in the parking lot...now, China has swallowed its ego and the world is changing again...
I have long maintained that the Masai people of Kenya are recalcitrant, extremely conservative living remnants of Ancient Egyptian civilization; Ancient Egypt was perfect, so to hell with 'progress'...
Nowhere is this clearer than in their concept of Good versus Evil, and the color of each... The Masai are monotheistic, and they call God Enkai or Engai. Engai is a single deity with a dual nature: Engai Narok (Black God) is benevolent, and Engai Nanyokie (Red God) is vengeful.
This was the exact same ideology of Ancient Egypt...
The Masai - a "Nilo-Hamitic" people who speak a "Nilo-Saharan" language - are one of the most ethnically conservative groups on the African Continent; so that one can ascertain glimpses as far back as the culture of the fertile Saharan crescent past, which predates Ancient Egypt, by simply observing the customs of these remarkable people...
Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
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Origin of the Ht hieroglyph (the god's house)
"The first of these (early temple images) is clearly an African hut, the sides of which are made of plaited reeds; the roof is made of some vegetable material which has been tied together, and consisted probably of a thick mat made of solatik similar to that which covered my tukul (hut) at Marawi (Abu Dom) and other places in the Sudan...the three curved lines in front represent the palings which are fixed before the tombs of great men all over the Sudan." -- p.247-8
"From "OSIRIS" & "LEGENDS OF THE EGYPTIAN GODS" by E.A.WALLIS BUDGE (1857-1934), Keeper of the Egyptian and Assyrian Antiquities in the British Museum...
Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
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What the wally Wally doesn't realize is that this:
Has nothing to do with this:
These people are the descendants of the Ancient Egyptians:
This is where you will find continuity of pharaonic culture:
'Hut' meaning primitive dwelling, is an English word, and it is pure co-incidence that it is similar to the Ancient Egyptian term for house or temple. The very name 'Copt', by the way, is an abreviation of the ancient Egyptian hut-ka-Ptah, house of the soul of Ptah. The self-aggrandizing black delusion that blacks (especially those of W. African descent, or far to the south) have anything whatsoever to do with ancient Egypt is really tragicomic. It is also grossly distasteful as it involves an attempt to rob the true Egyptians of their identity and heritage. If you want to do this to the Egyptians because you are ashamed of your real ancestors then you should be ahamed of yourself, and you are actually a disgrace to your ancestors!
Posts: 870 | From: uk | Registered: Apr 2011
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Nothing substantial to offer other than to further pollute the thread with your racist rhetorical tautology?
Moving on...
Djehuti, beautiful profiles of facial prognathism from the tomb of Khaemhat. Such depictions should indicate craniofacial patterns among Aegyptians to cluster and correspond accordingly with indigenous Africans as facial prognathism is most commonly visible albeit not the only exhibited pattern among African populations. Only tactical psychological warfare from Eurocentric racial typology conceals the reality of AE and its blatant reflected African affinity.
Posts: 535 | From: From the Darkest of the Abyss | Registered: Apr 2010
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You've got nothing to come back with but an absurd and unwarranted accusation of racism. Then again, several people hereabouts are so stupid and wrong-headed that they call anyone who disagrees with the far-fetched notion of black Egypt a 'nazi'. You insult anyone who has been on the receiving end of racism or fascism as much- as you insult me- when you speak such foolishness. It is really the likes of you who should be ashamed when you stoop to this level of unreason.
There isn't anything inherently 'black' about the features of Khaemhat. You are delusional.
These figures, with their cascading, wavy hair, look perfectly like average modern Egyptians, and nothing like average black Africans. Anyone in denial over this needs to seek psychiatric help. Posts: 870 | From: uk | Registered: Apr 2011
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...this is Looney Toons, and the looneys keep on posting, like looneyloop-'rahotep101', who is apparently not intelligent enough to realize that what he posts on the "Ancient Egypt" forum just simply won't fly on this one: Egyptology
Examples abound:
a) fool thinks that "Egyptian" is an ethnicity rather than a nationality
b) that modern colonial descendants of Turks, Syrians, etc - etc are the same people who created Kememou Civilization
c) somewhere else on this forum he gives an English mistranslation of a Mdu Ntr poem; I betcha a nickle and a cookie that he cannot provide the original which was not written in English!
d) then he displays images of obviously Nilotic Africans (Ancient Egyptians) and has the temerity to claim that they looked just like the colonialists which he had posted; Mubarak and the colonial elite have braided, plaited Nilotic hair?? -- It is NO different than saying that the Spaniards are the descendants of the Mayas!
This is the image of "Ahmes Nefertari" (Yomes Nufretari), Queen Mother of the 18th and 19th family dynasties - the Age of the Empire , copied from her tomb...her blackness represented the resurrection of the Kememou nation and power...and she was, like all of the ruling class of Ancient Egypt, a Black ... Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
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Don't think I'll forget, Rahotep101. Either admit you're wrong and stop spamming, or I'll repost this for all to see how many times you ignored it. This is the third time
quote:Originally posted by Calabooz': Rahotep, why you running? Do you or do you not acknowledge, finally, that your redundant references to Brace et al. '93 are OUTDATED? Hurry up... we're waiting.
quote:Originally posted by Calabooz': ^Look at the dendrogram and learn:
The Modern Egyptians cluster with those from the Maghreb while the early Egyptians cluster with Somalis, Nubians from modern and ancient times, and more distantly with Niger Congo Speakers This does NOT support Brace's conclusions that the population remained unchanged.
Similarly, Brace's conclusion that the Upper Egyptians are more closely related to the Late Dynastic of Upper Egypt has been refuted a few years after his '93 study came out:
"Analysis of crania is the traditional approach to assessing ancient population origins, relationships, and diversity. In studies based on anatomical traits and measurements of crania, similarities have been found between Nile Valley crania from 30,000, 20,000 and 12,000 years ago and various African remains from more recent times (see Thoma 1984; Brauer and Rimbach 1990; Angel and Kelley 1986; Keita 1993). Studies of crania from southern predynastic Egypt, from the formative period (4000-3100 B.C.), show them usually to be more similar to the crania of ancient Nubians, Kushites, Saharans, or modern groups from the Horn of Africa than to those of dynastic northern Egyptians or ancient or modern southern Europeans." (S. O. Y and A.J. Boyce, "The Geographical Origins and Population Relationships of Early Ancient Egyptians", in Egypt in Africa, Theodore Celenko (ed), Indiana University Press, 1996, pp. 20-33)
And obviously you didn't read his more recent study or you would have noticed this, which is basically what I'm saying now:
""The Niger-Congo speakers, Congo, Dahomey and Haya, cluster closely with each other and a bit less closely with the Nubian sample, both the recent and the Bronze Age Nubians, and more remotely with the Naqada Bronze Age sample of Egypt, the modern Somalis, and the Arabic-speaking Fellaheen (farmers) of Israel. When those samples are separated and run in a single analysis as in Fig. 1, there clearly is a tie between them that is diluted the farther one gets from sub-Saharan Africa" (Brace, 2005)
Look at the denrogram again, you can see the connection clearly
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Wally, you raving lunatic. The Coptic Christian Egyptians are considered an ethnic group as well as a religious sect, depsite not being obviously distinct, ethnically, from their Muslim compatriots. They have nothing to do with Turks or Syrians. See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MscgE5beXAw
The Muslims Egyptians mostly descend from ex-Copts, thus are fully as Egyptian as the Christians, but the Christians serve as perfect fossils of the ancients, as nearly all the ousiders to come to Egypt in the last 1400 years were Muslims, with whom the Coptic Christians could not mix. You talk about temerity! It's outrageous that people like you with no Egyptian blood dare to impugn these people whose Egyptian blood is pure and whose ancestors never left that land. That makes you some sort of lowlife in my view.
If you can provide a truer translation of the poem given elsewhere then do so, if not, spare me your nonsense.
I very much doubt Ahmose Nefertari was pitch black. Her mummy gives no such indication:
There are also non-black images of this woman.
Her son is not shown black, so his father must have been pretty damn fair, if she looked as you wish she did!
Even if Ahmose Nefertari was as black as you wish, such images are obviously exceptional, so it is harly legitimate to use her as though she were representative.
Where is the braided 'nilotic' hair here?
Calabooz, regarding similarities to N. Africans... I doubt the N. African affinity is the result of recent changes. The Coptic Christians certainly would not have been affected by the coming of the Fatimids (Shiite Muslims) from the Maghreb.
Brace's new findings actually seem to support the Dynastic Race Theory, with a new caucasian race appearing on the scene in the late Predynastic era, and with general continuity ever since. (Early predynastic pottery is similar to that found in Nubia, late Predynastic pottery looks more Sumerian.) In any event there is no clear evidence of a major ethnic shift since the establishment of Dynastic civilization. Old Kingdom Egyptians look the same as Egyptians of all subsequent eras.
Posts: 870 | From: uk | Registered: Apr 2011
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^Of course the affinity to North Africans is recent. Why do you think early Egyptians don't show this affinity but modern Egyptians do?
quote:Brace's new findings actually seem to support the Dynastic Race Theory, with a new caucasian race appearing on the scene in the late Predynastic era, and with general continuity ever since. (Early predynastic pottery is similar to that found in Nubia, late Predynastic pottery looks more Sumerian.)
His results show just the opposite actually. The predynastic sample is actually from Naqada III and they do NOT show affinities to non-Africans but Nubians and sub-Saharan Africans. The results therefore do not support the concept of a Dynastic race. In case you didn't know, there is a thing called "trade" that did not involve mass movement. While state formation did involve Trade and Military contact, it was not the product of a mythical "Dynastic Race" since there is continuity from the Early predynastic and Old Kingdom samples (Zakrzewski, 2007).
quote:In any event there is no clear evidence of a major ethnic shift since the establishment of Dynastic civilization. Old Kingdom Egyptians look the same as Egyptians of all subsequent eras.
Yes there is. Cranial Nonmetric traits were used by Zakrzewski (2005) to determine that there is continuity between Early Egyptians, but due to an increasing foreign element in the New Kingdom their is discontinuity from the New Kingdom after. Thereby supporting Late Egyptians as well as modern to be distinct from early Egyptians. There is also no clear evidence of a dynastic race, Kalonji called you out on your claims here:
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Clearly there are discrepancies, and one would need to know exactly what groups were being samples. Nonetheless there appears to be evidence for Eurasian influence in predynastic Egypt. Old kingdom portraiture does not reveal people who look different from later dynastic or modern Egyptians.
Old Kingdom Egyptians evidently shared the same range of facial features and skin colours as later ones, and the fact is staring you in the face. 'Europoid' (Caucasoid) typed evidently existed among the Badarian population, and the sand mummy Ginger appears to be such an example. The main source of Badarian population appears to have been the Western Desert, which is why it is difficult to believe that links to the Maghreb are only recent.
The Predynastic Merimde culture in the north was, by contrast, connected to the Levant. Burials were within settlements (like those at Jericho) not in separate cemetaries.
Dakleh Oasis burials reveal that the original population had substantial Eurasian links, whereas the sub-saharan mDNA continued to increase in post-dynastic times. The implication is that Egypians got blacker, if anything, over time! In practice this was presumably absorbed by the population the same way that the (smaller-scale) migration from the east or west was absorbed, having no great impact on the appearence of Egyptians in general.
The Ancient Egyptian language was in the Afro-Asiatic (Hamito/Semitic) group, meaning it was related to the other languages of N. Africa and the Middle East. It was not in the Nilo-Saharan grouping of the Cushistic languages.
Egyptians are the same as they were, probably 90% pure ancient Egyptian.
Posts: 870 | From: uk | Registered: Apr 2011
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^The thing you don't understand here, I don't care about your unsubstantiated claims based on your eyeballing of statues which does NOT effect what cranial studies show. Eurasian influence would have been minor, and restricted to lower Egypt. And Even lower Egyptian samples cluster with Tropical Africans not Middle Easterners suggesting "lack of common ancestors" (Kemp, 2006)
quote:Old Kingdom Egyptians evidently shared the same range of facial features and skin colours as later ones, and the fact is staring you in the face.
Based solely on what YOU perceive from statues.
quote:'Europoid' (Caucasoid) typed evidently existed among the Badarian population, and the sand mummy Ginger appears to be such an example. The main source of Badarian population appears to have been the Western Desert, which is why it is difficult to believe that links to the Maghreb are only recent.
Please stop, you're too funny. If that were true, then you would have a tough time explaining the craniometric analysis carried out by Keita (2005) that showed the Badarian to cluster with Tropical African groups no matter which algorithm was employed suggesting that Europeans did not colonize el Badari. Why don't you try reading something for once?
As for the western desert, you're still pulling faulty conclusions out yo ass when you use this to claim the Magrheb affinity would not be recent. Recent archaeological findings show that the people of the western desert had affinities to those in Lower Nubia. See here: http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=007402
quote:The Predynastic Merimde culture in the north was, by contrast, connected to the Levant. Burials were within settlements (like those at Jericho) not in separate cemetaries.
The Merimde culture was essentially African.
quote:The ancient Egyptians were clearly largely as Egyptians remains. New Kingdom actually witnessed an increase in the negroid element in both Egypt and Nubia.
LOL. I see you have to rely on Mathilda. The article Mathilda is using is from the `1930's , seriously. Strouhal was refuted by Keita (2005). Notice how Mathilda claims Keita "lied" when he paraphrased Strouhal, obviously she has no idea what she's reading.
quote:Dakleh Oasis burials reveal that the original population had substantial Eurasian links, whereas the sub-saharan mDNA continued to increase in post-dynastic times.
Nonsense. All you can do is rely on Mathilda's blog, right? FYI, the only study on the Dakleh Oasis analyzed Roman Period samples. And, as a matter of fact, the samples they analyzed still showed a link to sub-Saharan Africans. Furthermore, the authors of that study mention how, since this IS the Roman period we're talking about, the "Eurasian" element can be attributed to contact.
quote:The implication is that Egypians got blacker, if anything, over time!
Blah blah blah,
No it's not dumbass. Recent admixture in the modern Egyptian population has been mainly from the Near East, not south of Egypt.
quote:In practice this was presumably absorbed by the population the same way that the (smaller-scale) migration from the east or west was absorbed, having no great impact on the appearence of Egyptians in general.
You just don't have a clue, do you?
quote:The Ancient Egyptian language was in the Afro-Asiatic (Hamito/Semitic) group, meaning it was related to the other languages of N. Africa and the Middle East. It was not in the Nilo-Saharan grouping of the Cushistic languages.
Ignorant indeed
There is no such thing as "Hamitic". And in case you didn't know; Afro-Asiatic originated in Eastern Africa among, you guessed it, indigenous Africans. The only branch of Afro-Asiatic outside Africa is Semetic, and where do you think Proto-Semetic speakers came from?
More info for you to chew on, the earliest Egyptian speakers were located to the south of Egypt in Sudan or the Sahara. We know this because the "limited conceptual vocabulary" that was shared by the ancestors of Chadic/Cushitic, Nilotic and Egyptians. You have no evidence to suggest a linguistic affinity to Berber's or the Middle East.
quote:Egyptians are the same as they were, probably 90% pure ancient Egyptian.
I've addressed the above several times.
Well, I've had my fun. It's obvious you just want attention since you like to repeat the same things over and over again. Nothing you say has any evidence to support it, and can be debunked with the simplest of arguments.
-------------------- L Writes: Posts: 1502 | From: Dies Irae | Registered: Oct 2010
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posted
So you accept that ostensinly the Old Kingdom Egyptians look no different to later ones? I mean unless one was going around with a tape measure one would be hard-pressed to discern any difference. And why would they make statues of themselves that didn't look like themselves? Are you kidding me?
The fact remains that since Dynastic times there has been more, not less sub-saharan influence, compared to the level of Eurasian influence. This makes a complete nonsense of the Afrocentric claim that ancient Egyptians were closer to sub-saharan Africans than modern Egyptians are.
Even the Lower Nubians have nearly half their ancestry among Eurasians, it seems, so the idea that the Badarians were purely black Africans seens beyond far fetched.
Keita has something of an agenda, but even he admits that the modern Egyptians represent the same range of features and skin tones as were seen among the ancients. No one seriously disputes this fact and the visual evidence makes it beyond obvious.
How would any of the above stand out as different, racially, in modern Egypt?
You say the Egypt underwent a significant ethnic shift at the end of the New Kingdom. How come there is no visual/cultural evidence of the fact? Modern Egyptians are overwhelmingly the unadulterated descendants of the ancient Egyptians, and it is not 'Eurocentrists' but Afrocentrists who are trying to usurp their heritage. It is more about compensating for perceived deficiencies in the legacy of black Americans than a search for historical truth about the origins of ancient Egypt.
Posts: 870 | From: uk | Registered: Apr 2011
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posted
then show us these non black early dynastic pharoahs
2 months waiting whats taking so long
the caucasian looking ones like khafre ate mixed race anyway.
you cant prove the first egyptians were caucasian looking, they were foreingers
most of the above ap[art from the khafre statue is probably fake, the master piece of sculpture which is khafre was done by true artisans , but the other models look fake,
Posts: 164 | Registered: Apr 2006
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posted
Most of the images I posted were fourth or fifth dynasty. Here is another, Userkaf, first king of the Fifth Dynasty...
No one, to my knowledge, has ever attempted to suggest that there was a change in Egypt's makeup between the third and fourth dynasty. There is no case to answer.
I don't see anything 'black' about the figures on the Narmer Palette. There is no negroid maxillary prognathism to be seen, rather (as with Userkaf) the foreheads tend to prokect further forward than the mouths, and the line from the brow to the nose is straight, rather than depressed as is more usual for black people.
The same goes for king Scorpion:
And for a number of predynastic figures, which look more Sumerian than black African...
The statue of Djoser may shows some black traits, but it is somewhat ambigious, and isn't sufficiently well preserved to say for sure. At any rate it's all within the bounds of the present Egyptian population.
posted
what a surprise you didnt answer the 3 questions anyway lets discuss the copts.
"The Copt samples displayed a most interesting Y-profile, enough (as much as that of Gaalien in Sudan) to suggest that they actually represent a living record of the peopling of Egypt. The significant frequency of B-M60 in this group might be a relic of a history of
....colonization of southern Egypt probably by Niloticsin the early state formation,.......
something that conforms both to recorded history and to Egyptian mythology." Source: (Hisham Y. Hassan 1, Peter A. Underhill 2, Luca L. Cavalli-Sforza 2, Muntaser E. Ibrahim 1. (2008). Y-chromosome variation among Sudanese: Restricted gene flow, concordance with language, geography, and history. Am J Phys Anthropology, 2008. Volume 137 Issue 3, Pages 316 - 323)
posted
Like I said Rahotep, I've had my fun. You can not refute the bio-anthropological evidence that shows an increase in foreigners in Egypt during the New Kingdom resulting in late Period and modern Egyptians to be distinct. Visual=what you perceive, not necessarily what is. Spamming statues that are Cherry picked images won't help you, and foreigners were assimilated into Egyptian culture or remained culturally distinct. The Dakheleh Oasis study was just explained to you, and Nubians do NOT have over half Eurasian mtDNA, to the contrary 77% of their mtDNA is sub-Saharan in origin. Nobody is claiming modern Egyptians are not descended from the ancient, or that the range of variation couldn't have been present, the fact is that the latter periods remain morphologically distinct and there was a demographic change in the Nile Valley (Upper Egyptians converged on lower Egyptians).
-------------------- L Writes: Posts: 1502 | From: Dies Irae | Registered: Oct 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Calabooz ': Like I said Rahotep, I've had my fun. You can not refute the bio-anthropological evidence that shows an increase in foreigners in Egypt during the New Kingdom resulting in late Period and modern Egyptians to be distinct....
The shifts you are on about are so minor as to amount to hair-splitting. The overwhelming picture is one of continuity.
quote:'Thus despite increased foreign influence after the second intermediate period, not only did Egyptian culture remain intact (Lloyd 2000a) but the people themselves, as represented by dental samples, appear biologically consistent as well.' J. D. Irish, 2006.
'Biologically consistent', which part of that phrase don't you grasp?
Posts: 870 | From: uk | Registered: Apr 2011
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posted
You posting a bearded priest which may very well have some links to Serapis which a Greek form of Osiris the sistrums are all religious instruments of ancient Nile valley..so you showing a light skinned high Coptic priest I just thought you should take it waay back in time and deeper into the Nile valley.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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posted
Naaw this much older I believe.. although the Greeks may have gotten it right.
This Voodoo Doll was from the Greco-Roman world (used in Egypt in the 2nd century A.D.) http://anthr.religion.nielsonpi.com/mod7.html If Iam not mistaken this was from the dreaded Congo.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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posted
The sistrum rattle was used in Ancient Egptian rites, and also in the cult of Isis that spread into the west.
Whether it was used in pre-Christian Ethiopia would be interesting to find out, but I suspect it was derived via Egyptian Coptic Christians who retained it from pagan times. Ethiopia retained a few traditions that were abandoned/lost by Christians elswhere, including certain apocryphal books of the Old Testament, (Enoch and Jubilees).
The priest I showed previously is the present Coptic Pope, or Patriarch of Alexandria, (who somewhat resembles Userkaf). Before the 1960s the holders of his office would also have been the heads of the church in Ethiopia, although in practice the churches were somewhat astranged.
Posts: 870 | From: uk | Registered: Apr 2011
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There is nothing injudicious about my accusation of racism. Your psychology and objective is reminiscent of the delinquent forefathers from which you came from. You insult me and the rest of the (black)people on this forum by making an effort to tactically manipulate our psychology with your conscious purpose of rhetoric. You have no right to come here affirming our claims and notions are far-fetched or unreasonable simply because our opinions do not coincide with yours.
Moreover, I don't expect you to agree with my position on the features from the Tomb of Khaemhat and I can't help it if you are in denial or not obliged to the truth. More importantly, I will not try to disprove your observation since i believe it's fruitless trying to, giving your situation.
Posts: 535 | From: From the Darkest of the Abyss | Registered: Apr 2010
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news flash, NEWS flash: a newer study in which Irish was co-author found that migration resulted in increased diversity, meaning distinct phenotypes being introduced with foreigners
quote:Originally posted by rahotep101:
quote:Originally posted by Calabooz ': Like I said Rahotep, I've had my fun. You can not refute the bio-anthropological evidence that shows an increase in foreigners in Egypt during the New Kingdom resulting in late Period and modern Egyptians to be distinct....
The shifts you are on about are so minor as to amount to hair-splitting. The overwhelming picture is one of continuity.
quote:'Thus despite increased foreign influence after the second intermediate period, not only did Egyptian culture remain intact (Lloyd 2000a) but the people themselves, as represented by dental samples, appear biologically consistent as well.' J. D. Irish, 2006.
'Biologically consistent', which part of that phrase don't you grasp?
You've been schooled on this before. Straight nose in North east Africa is not evidence of "mixture". Fail again.
Posts: 4254 | From: dasein | Registered: Jun 2009
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