Watch the entire video, but go to the 9:10 mark. I read this on another site as well. Other African languages being discovered within the Timbuktu manuscripts (Swahili, Fulani, Hausa, etc). What does this mean? Are they talking about entirely separate scripts? Non-arabic? Or was there some sort of fusion between Arabic and new local written languages created? Either way, you're talking about entirely new forms of Arabic found only in Western Africa (or maybe also East Africa since Swahili has been found) or entirely new languages...both are major discoveries and need to be elaborated on.
Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
Just as a Canaanite script led to Latin characters in which many European languages are written so did an Arabic script came to be used to inscribe a host of African languages (and even Hebrew).
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I posted this about Ajami in the A. Egypt section a good and must read for anyone interested in Timbuctou.
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posted
Nice video, and I am pleased to know that they are using the manuscript's restoration as part of their over-all economic advancement I do hope that the city regained a total recovery and become once again Africa's university city.
Also there is a sister video called desert Blues..but in keeping with the theme of this post and this side of E/S I'll post it over on the on the Ancient Egypt side.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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posted
President Mbeki of South Africa invested heavily in the preservation of these documents and development of new libraries in Timbuktu. That is true African brotherhood...
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quote:President Mbeki of South Africa invested heavily in the preservation of these documents and development of new libraries in Timbuktu. That is true African brotherhood...
Well a great deal of the written intellectual property of the continent is there..did you saw the part when Dr Hadara said that the works of the Swahili is also there?? so yes African leaders as well as private citizens better pitch in with money and expertize. also it would suggest that they had contact and knowladge of each-other.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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Also notice the similar way that the women dance. Look at the way the women in that clip dance and then look at how these Saharan Arab women dance: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJKvi2kUAIQ . Same people, same customs.
quote:Originally posted by awlaadberry: Also notice the similar way that the women dance. Look at the way the women in that clip dance and then look at how these Saharan Arab women dance: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJKvi2kUAIQ . Same people, same customs.[/QB]
They are not Arab. They're Berber, probably Tuareg. The dance is called guedra.
Posts: 12 | Registered: Feb 2009
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quote:Originally posted by awlaadberry: Also notice the similar way that the women dance. Look at the way the women in that clip dance and then look at how these Saharan Arab women dance: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJKvi2kUAIQ . Same people, same customs.
They are not Arab. They're Berber, probably Tuareg. The dance is called guedra. [/QB]
They are Tuaregs and Tuaregs are of Himyarite Arab origin. See pages 107 and 108 of my book The Unknown Arabs. Also read this:
The Tuaregs
The Tuaregs are nomadic people and desert dwellers. The Tuareg are either Messufa, Lamtuna, or Judaala, who traced their ancestry back to the Sanhaja. The Sanhaja traced their lineage back to the Himyar who are people of Southern Arabia. They, however, lived among the Berbers before crossing the Sahara and settling in West Africa. They are the founders of the city of Timbuktu. They contributed scholarly and commercially to the legacy of Timbuktu. Today, the Tuareg live in Mali and Niger.
posted
They are not Arab, and only a minority are/were Berber, they are African. They spoke Arab, just like New Testament Christian's spoke and wrote in Greek. Did you completely overlook the part of the video where they said the Arabic script had been used to write several African languages like Hausa, Fulani etc. The knowledge of these books is African knowledge predating the advent of Islam/Arab in that part of the continent. Not every Arabic speaker is an Arab. African's are African's, Mali & Songhai were African empires, consisting predominantly of West African peoples, along with some Berbers.
quote:Originally posted by awlaadberry:
quote:Originally posted by dknytx:
quote:Originally posted by awlaadberry: Also notice the similar way that the women dance. Look at the way the women in that clip dance and then look at how these Saharan Arab women dance: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJKvi2kUAIQ . Same people, same customs.
They are not Arab. They're Berber, probably Tuareg. The dance is called guedra.
They are Tuaregs and Tuaregs are of Himyarite Arab origin. See pages 107 and 108 of my book The Unknown Arabs. Also read this:
The Tuaregs
The Tuaregs are nomadic people and desert dwellers. The Tuareg are either Messufa, Lamtuna, or Judaala, who traced their ancestry back to the Sanhaja. The Sanhaja traced their lineage back to the Himyar who are people of Southern Arabia. They, however, lived among the Berbers before crossing the Sahara and settling in West Africa. They are the founders of the city of Timbuktu. They contributed scholarly and commercially to the legacy of Timbuktu. Today, the Tuareg live in Mali and Niger.
quote:Originally posted by Narmer Menes: They are not Arab, and only a minority are/were Berber, they are African. They spoke Arab, just like New Testament Christian's spoke and wrote in Greek. Did you completely overlook the part of the video where they said the Arabic script had been used to write several African languages like Hausa, Fulani etc. The knowledge of these books is African knowledge predating the advent of Islam/Arab in that part of the continent. Not every Arabic speaker is an Arab. African's are African's, Mali & Songhai were African empires, consisting predominantly of West African peoples, along with some Berbers.
quote:Originally posted by awlaadberry:
quote:Originally posted by dknytx:
quote:Originally posted by awlaadberry: Also notice the similar way that the women dance. Look at the way the women in that clip dance and then look at how these Saharan Arab women dance: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJKvi2kUAIQ . Same people, same customs.
They are not Arab. They're Berber, probably Tuareg. The dance is called guedra.
They are Tuaregs and Tuaregs are of Himyarite Arab origin. See pages 107 and 108 of my book The Unknown Arabs. Also read this:
The Tuaregs
The Tuaregs are nomadic people and desert dwellers. The Tuareg are either Messufa, Lamtuna, or Judaala, who traced their ancestry back to the Sanhaja. The Sanhaja traced their lineage back to the Himyar who are people of Southern Arabia. They, however, lived among the Berbers before crossing the Sahara and settling in West Africa. They are the founders of the city of Timbuktu. They contributed scholarly and commercially to the legacy of Timbuktu. Today, the Tuareg live in Mali and Niger.
Who wasn't Arab? The people in the video who said that they are Arabs or the Tuareg, who historians and genealogists say are of Arab origin? And what do you mean by "African"???
Posts: 895 | Registered: Feb 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Narmer Menes: They are not Arab, and only a minority are/were Berber, they are African. They spoke Arab, just like New Testament Christian's spoke and wrote in Greek. Did you completely overlook the part of the video where they said the Arabic script had been used to write several African languages like Hausa, Fulani etc. The knowledge of these books is African knowledge predating the advent of Islam/Arab in that part of the continent. Not every Arabic speaker is an Arab. African's are African's, Mali & Songhai were African empires, consisting predominantly of West African peoples, along with some Berbers.
quote:Originally posted by awlaadberry:
quote:Originally posted by dknytx:
quote:Originally posted by awlaadberry: Also notice the similar way that the women dance. Look at the way the women in that clip dance and then look at how these Saharan Arab women dance: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJKvi2kUAIQ . Same people, same customs.
They are not Arab. They're Berber, probably Tuareg. The dance is called guedra.
They are Tuaregs and Tuaregs are of Himyarite Arab origin. See pages 107 and 108 of my book The Unknown Arabs. Also read this:
The Tuaregs
The Tuaregs are nomadic people and desert dwellers. The Tuareg are either Messufa, Lamtuna, or Judaala, who traced their ancestry back to the Sanhaja. The Sanhaja traced their lineage back to the Himyar who are people of Southern Arabia. They, however, lived among the Berbers before crossing the Sahara and settling in West Africa. They are the founders of the city of Timbuktu. They contributed scholarly and commercially to the legacy of Timbuktu. Today, the Tuareg live in Mali and Niger.
Who wasn't Arab? The people in the video who said that they are Arabs or the Tuareg, who historians and genealogists say are of Arab origin? And what do you mean by "African"??? [/QB]
and tell me what you understood from her. Are you saying that she and her people aren't Arabs? Also, did you read the book Roots by Alex Haley? Have you heard of Kunta Kinti? Doesn't the book say that his ancestor was in Mali? Here are the Kunta of Mali:
quote:Originally posted by Narmer Menes: They are not Arab, and only a minority are/were Berber, they are African. They spoke Arab, just like New Testament Christian's spoke and wrote in Greek. Did you completely overlook the part of the video where they said the Arabic script had been used to write several African languages like Hausa, Fulani etc. The knowledge of these books is African knowledge predating the advent of Islam/Arab in that part of the continent. Not every Arabic speaker is an Arab. African's are African's, Mali & Songhai were African empires, consisting predominantly of West African peoples, along with some Berbers.
quote:Originally posted by awlaadberry:
quote:Originally posted by dknytx:
quote:Originally posted by awlaadberry: Also notice the similar way that the women dance. Look at the way the women in that clip dance and then look at how these Saharan Arab women dance: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJKvi2kUAIQ . Same people, same customs.
They are not Arab. They're Berber, probably Tuareg. The dance is called guedra.
They are Tuaregs and Tuaregs are of Himyarite Arab origin. See pages 107 and 108 of my book The Unknown Arabs. Also read this:
The Tuaregs
The Tuaregs are nomadic people and desert dwellers. The Tuareg are either Messufa, Lamtuna, or Judaala, who traced their ancestry back to the Sanhaja. The Sanhaja traced their lineage back to the Himyar who are people of Southern Arabia. They, however, lived among the Berbers before crossing the Sahara and settling in West Africa. They are the founders of the city of Timbuktu. They contributed scholarly and commercially to the legacy of Timbuktu. Today, the Tuareg live in Mali and Niger.
Who wasn't Arab? The people in the video who said that they are Arabs or the Tuareg, who historians and genealogists say are of Arab origin? And what do you mean by "African"???
and tell me what you understood from her. Are you saying that she and her people aren't Arabs? Also, did you read the book Roots by Alex Haley? Have you heard of Kunta Kinti? Doesn't the book say that his ancestor was in Mali? Here are the Kunta of Mali:
Are they Arabs or "Africans"? And I'm still waiting for you to explain to me what an "African" is. [/QB]
Also read this and read what it says manuscript number 43 says about the origin of the Fulani:
The Fulani
The Fulani are nomadic people and are well-known for their herds of cattle. They are astute merchants and excellent Islamic scholars. The Fulani, the Tuareg and Arabs have been instrumental in spreading Islam in West Africa. They are nation builders and ruled over the Futa Jallon and Futa Tora. Under the leadership of Shayk Ahmadu, they formed the caliphate of Massina. In the 18th century, the famous Fulani scholar and warrior Uthman Dan Fodio founded the Sokoto caliphate in northern Nigeria. The Fulani produced most of the eminent scholars of Jenne and Massina. According to the manuscript number 43 of Ahmed Baba Center in Timbuktu, the Fulani trace their lineage back to the Koraysh of Mecca through Oqba ibn Yasir who married a Fulani princess of Futa Toro by the name of Madeumaa. From this marriage she had four boys. They are the ancestors of the Fulani tribes: these are the Diallo, Dicko, Sangare, Balde' or Ba, Barry and Diakite. Today, the Fulani are mainly in West Africa.
quote:Originally posted by King_Scorpion: Who has information on Songhai historian Ahmad Baba?
Ahmad Baba was a 16th century scholar of Timbuktu who wrote many books. He was from the famous Aqit family of Timbuktu. The Aqit family are Massufa Sanhaja. When Timbuktu was invaded by the Spanish army of the Moroccan ruler Ahmad Mansur Al-Dhahabi, Ahmad Baba was transported across the Sahara to Marrakesh.
Posts: 895 | Registered: Feb 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Narmer Menes: They are not Arab, and only a minority are/were Berber, they are African. They spoke Arab, just like New Testament Christian's spoke and wrote in Greek. Did you completely overlook the part of the video where they said the Arabic script had been used to write several African languages like Hausa, Fulani etc. The knowledge of these books is African knowledge predating the advent of Islam/Arab in that part of the continent. Not every Arabic speaker is an Arab. African's are African's, Mali & Songhai were African empires, consisting predominantly of West African peoples, along with some Berbers.
quote:Originally posted by awlaadberry:
quote:Originally posted by dknytx:
quote:Originally posted by awlaadberry: Also notice the similar way that the women dance. Look at the way the women in that clip dance and then look at how these Saharan Arab women dance: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJKvi2kUAIQ . Same people, same customs.
They are not Arab. They're Berber, probably Tuareg. The dance is called guedra.
They are Tuaregs and Tuaregs are of Himyarite Arab origin. See pages 107 and 108 of my book The Unknown Arabs. Also read this:
The Tuaregs
The Tuaregs are nomadic people and desert dwellers. The Tuareg are either Messufa, Lamtuna, or Judaala, who traced their ancestry back to the Sanhaja. The Sanhaja traced their lineage back to the Himyar who are people of Southern Arabia. They, however, lived among the Berbers before crossing the Sahara and settling in West Africa. They are the founders of the city of Timbuktu. They contributed scholarly and commercially to the legacy of Timbuktu. Today, the Tuareg live in Mali and Niger.
Who wasn't Arab? The people in the video who said that they are Arabs or the Tuareg, who historians and genealogists say are of Arab origin? And what do you mean by "African"???
and tell me what you understood from her. Are you saying that she and her people aren't Arabs? Also, did you read the book Roots by Alex Haley? Have you heard of Kunta Kinti? Doesn't the book say that his ancestor was in Mali? Here are the Kunta of Mali:
Are they Arabs or "Africans"? And I'm still waiting for you to explain to me what an "African" is.
Also read this and read what it says manuscript number 43 says about the origin of the Fulani:
The Fulani
The Fulani are nomadic people and are well-known for their herds of cattle. They are astute merchants and excellent Islamic scholars. The Fulani, the Tuareg and Arabs have been instrumental in spreading Islam in West Africa. They are nation builders and ruled over the Futa Jallon and Futa Tora. Under the leadership of Shayk Ahmadu, they formed the caliphate of Massina. In the 18th century, the famous Fulani scholar and warrior Uthman Dan Fodio founded the Sokoto caliphate in northern Nigeria. The Fulani produced most of the eminent scholars of Jenne and Massina. According to the manuscript number 43 of Ahmed Baba Center in Timbuktu, the Fulani trace their lineage back to the Koraysh of Mecca through Oqba ibn Yasir who married a Fulani princess of Futa Toro by the name of Madeumaa. From this marriage she had four boys. They are the ancestors of the Fulani tribes: these are the Diallo, Dicko, Sangare, Balde' or Ba, Barry and Diakite. Today, the Fulani are mainly in West Africa.
Are the Fulani Arabs or "Africans" and again, I'm waiting for that definition of an "African". [/QB]
LOL, they're not Arab; many Africans and non Africans alike have traditionally claimed Arab ancestry in oder to 'connect' themselves with the Arabic culture. But then again almost all of them claims are FALSE, i.e. myths.
The Fulani people are genetically, culturally, and linguistically African, specifically West African.
"While some have speculated over the origin of Fulani people, current linguistic and genetic evidence suggests an indigenous West African origin among the Peul. The vast majority of genetic lineages associated with them reflect those most commonly seen in other west Africans. Their language is also of west African origin, most closely related to that of the Wolof and Serer ethnic groups. Historical and archaeological records indicate that Peul-speakers have resided in western Africa since at least the 5th century A.D. as well. Interestingly, rock paintings in the Tassili-n-Ajjer suggests the presence of proto-Fulani cultural traits in the region by at least the fourth millennium B.C. Scholars specializing in Fulani culture believe that some of the imagery depicts rituals that are still practiced by contemporary Fulani people."
The same thing can be said about the indigenous Northwest African Tuareg population, who are genetically related to various groups in West, North, and East Africa.
"The Tuareg are probably descended from ancient Saharan peoples described by Herodotus. He described the ancient Libyan people of the kingdom of the Garamantes, of which archaeological evidence is found in the ruins of Germa."
'African' people are a group of genetically and physically diverse people with a general common ancestral origin inside of Africa. i.e. West Africans, Saharo-Sudanics, Berbers, Arabnized North Africans, Northeast Africans, Khoisans, etc.
Funny, Arabs speak a Semetic language, i.e. an African sub-family, LOL.
Are Arabs African?
Posts: 341 | Registered: Feb 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Narmer Menes: They are not Arab, and only a minority are/were Berber, they are African. They spoke Arab, just like New Testament Christian's spoke and wrote in Greek. Did you completely overlook the part of the video where they said the Arabic script had been used to write several African languages like Hausa, Fulani etc. The knowledge of these books is African knowledge predating the advent of Islam/Arab in that part of the continent. Not every Arabic speaker is an Arab. African's are African's, Mali & Songhai were African empires, consisting predominantly of West African peoples, along with some Berbers.
quote:Originally posted by awlaadberry:
quote:Originally posted by dknytx:
quote:Originally posted by awlaadberry: Also notice the similar way that the women dance. Look at the way the women in that clip dance and then look at how these Saharan Arab women dance: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJKvi2kUAIQ . Same people, same customs.
They are not Arab. They're Berber, probably Tuareg. The dance is called guedra.
They are Tuaregs and Tuaregs are of Himyarite Arab origin. See pages 107 and 108 of my book The Unknown Arabs. Also read this:
The Tuaregs
The Tuaregs are nomadic people and desert dwellers. The Tuareg are either Messufa, Lamtuna, or Judaala, who traced their ancestry back to the Sanhaja. The Sanhaja traced their lineage back to the Himyar who are people of Southern Arabia. They, however, lived among the Berbers before crossing the Sahara and settling in West Africa. They are the founders of the city of Timbuktu. They contributed scholarly and commercially to the legacy of Timbuktu. Today, the Tuareg live in Mali and Niger.
Who wasn't Arab? The people in the video who said that they are Arabs or the Tuareg, who historians and genealogists say are of Arab origin? And what do you mean by "African"???
and tell me what you understood from her. Are you saying that she and her people aren't Arabs? Also, did you read the book Roots by Alex Haley? Have you heard of Kunta Kinti? Doesn't the book say that his ancestor was in Mali? Here are the Kunta of Mali:
Are they Arabs or "Africans"? And I'm still waiting for you to explain to me what an "African" is.
Also read this and read what it says manuscript number 43 says about the origin of the Fulani:
The Fulani
The Fulani are nomadic people and are well-known for their herds of cattle. They are astute merchants and excellent Islamic scholars. The Fulani, the Tuareg and Arabs have been instrumental in spreading Islam in West Africa. They are nation builders and ruled over the Futa Jallon and Futa Tora. Under the leadership of Shayk Ahmadu, they formed the caliphate of Massina. In the 18th century, the famous Fulani scholar and warrior Uthman Dan Fodio founded the Sokoto caliphate in northern Nigeria. The Fulani produced most of the eminent scholars of Jenne and Massina. According to the manuscript number 43 of Ahmed Baba Center in Timbuktu, the Fulani trace their lineage back to the Koraysh of Mecca through Oqba ibn Yasir who married a Fulani princess of Futa Toro by the name of Madeumaa. From this marriage she had four boys. They are the ancestors of the Fulani tribes: these are the Diallo, Dicko, Sangare, Balde' or Ba, Barry and Diakite. Today, the Fulani are mainly in West Africa.
Are the Fulani Arabs or "Africans" and again, I'm waiting for that definition of an "African".
LOL, they're not Arab; many Africans and non Africans alike have traditionally claimed Arab ancestry in oder to 'connect' themselves with the Arabic culture. But then again almost all of them claims are FALSE, i.e. myths.
The Fulani people are genetically, culturally, and linguistically African, specifically West African.
"While some have speculated over the origin of Fulani people, current linguistic and genetic evidence suggests an indigenous West African origin among the Peul. The vast majority of genetic lineages associated with them reflect those most commonly seen in other west Africans. Their language is also of west African origin, most closely related to that of the Wolof and Serer ethnic groups. Historical and archaeological records indicate that Peul-speakers have resided in western Africa since at least the 5th century A.D. as well. Interestingly, rock paintings in the Tassili-n-Ajjer suggests the presence of proto-Fulani cultural traits in the region by at least the fourth millennium B.C. Scholars specializing in Fulani culture believe that some of the imagery depicts rituals that are still practiced by contemporary Fulani people."
The same thing can be said about the indigenous Northwest African Tuareg population, who are genetically related to various groups in West, North, and East Africa.
"The Tuareg are probably descended from ancient Saharan peoples described by Herodotus. He described the ancient Libyan people of the kingdom of the Garamantes, of which archaeological evidence is found in the ruins of Germa."
'African' people are a group of genetically and physically diverse people with a general common ancestral origin inside of Africa. i.e. West Africans, Saharo-Sudanics, Berbers, Arabnized North Africans, Northeast Africans, Khoisans, etc.
Funny, Arabs speak a Semetic language, i.e. an African sub-family, LOL.
Are Arabs African? [/QB]
Who told you that they "claim Arab origin in order to connect"??? In other words, they are lying about their origin? Is this what you are saying? Or maybe you mean they don't know their origin and they need others to come and tell them who they are. "Genetic evidence" , "Indigenous West African origin", "Historical and archaeological records indicate.." What do you mean by all of this? Is this your definition of an "African": "'African' people are a group of genetically and physically diverse people with a general common ancestral origin inside of Africa" ??? What on earth does that mean??? LOL
Posts: 895 | Registered: Feb 2010
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posted
So, because the Fulani were propagators of the Islamic faith, they are Arab's... correct?
So by that same logic, Roman's being propogators of the Christian faith are Israeli?
Brother, this article does not support a claim that the Fulani are not African. Practising an acquired faith and speaking an acquired language does not magically transport ones location to another continent.
quote: Also read this and read what it says manuscript number 43 says about the origin of the Fulani:
The Fulani
The Fulani are nomadic people and are well-known for their herds of cattle. They are astute merchants and excellent Islamic scholars. The Fulani, the Tuareg and Arabs have been instrumental in spreading Islam in West Africa. They are nation builders and ruled over the Futa Jallon and Futa Tora. Under the leadership of Shayk Ahmadu, they formed the caliphate of Massina. In the 18th century, the famous Fulani scholar and warrior Uthman Dan Fodio founded the Sokoto caliphate in northern Nigeria. The Fulani produced most of the eminent scholars of Jenne and Massina. According to the manuscript number 43 of Ahmed Baba Center in Timbuktu, the Fulani trace their lineage back to the Koraysh of Mecca through Oqba ibn Yasir who married a Fulani princess of Futa Toro by the name of Madeumaa. From this marriage she had four boys. They are the ancestors of the Fulani tribes: these are the Diallo, Dicko, Sangare, Balde' or Ba, Barry and Diakite. Today, the Fulani are mainly in West Africa.
quote:Originally posted by Narmer Menes: They are not Arab, and only a minority are/were Berber, they are African. They spoke Arab, just like New Testament Christian's spoke and wrote in Greek. Did you completely overlook the part of the video where they said the Arabic script had been used to write several African languages like Hausa, Fulani etc. The knowledge of these books is African knowledge predating the advent of Islam/Arab in that part of the continent. Not every Arabic speaker is an Arab. African's are African's, Mali & Songhai were African empires, consisting predominantly of West African peoples, along with some Berbers.
quote:Originally posted by awlaadberry:
quote:Originally posted by dknytx:
quote:Originally posted by awlaadberry: Also notice the similar way that the women dance. Look at the way the women in that clip dance and then look at how these Saharan Arab women dance: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJKvi2kUAIQ . Same people, same customs.
They are not Arab. They're Berber, probably Tuareg. The dance is called guedra.
They are Tuaregs and Tuaregs are of Himyarite Arab origin. See pages 107 and 108 of my book The Unknown Arabs. Also read this:
The Tuaregs
The Tuaregs are nomadic people and desert dwellers. The Tuareg are either Messufa, Lamtuna, or Judaala, who traced their ancestry back to the Sanhaja. The Sanhaja traced their lineage back to the Himyar who are people of Southern Arabia. They, however, lived among the Berbers before crossing the Sahara and settling in West Africa. They are the founders of the city of Timbuktu. They contributed scholarly and commercially to the legacy of Timbuktu. Today, the Tuareg live in Mali and Niger.
Who wasn't Arab? The people in the video who said that they are Arabs or the Tuareg, who historians and genealogists say are of Arab origin? And what do you mean by "African"???
and tell me what you understood from her. Are you saying that she and her people aren't Arabs? Also, did you read the book Roots by Alex Haley? Have you heard of Kunta Kinti? Doesn't the book say that his ancestor was in Mali? Here are the Kunta of Mali:
Are they Arabs or "Africans"? And I'm still waiting for you to explain to me what an "African" is.
Also read this and read what it says manuscript number 43 says about the origin of the Fulani:
The Fulani
The Fulani are nomadic people and are well-known for their herds of cattle. They are astute merchants and excellent Islamic scholars. The Fulani, the Tuareg and Arabs have been instrumental in spreading Islam in West Africa. They are nation builders and ruled over the Futa Jallon and Futa Tora. Under the leadership of Shayk Ahmadu, they formed the caliphate of Massina. In the 18th century, the famous Fulani scholar and warrior Uthman Dan Fodio founded the Sokoto caliphate in northern Nigeria. The Fulani produced most of the eminent scholars of Jenne and Massina. According to the manuscript number 43 of Ahmed Baba Center in Timbuktu, the Fulani trace their lineage back to the Koraysh of Mecca through Oqba ibn Yasir who married a Fulani princess of Futa Toro by the name of Madeumaa. From this marriage she had four boys. They are the ancestors of the Fulani tribes: these are the Diallo, Dicko, Sangare, Balde' or Ba, Barry and Diakite. Today, the Fulani are mainly in West Africa.
Are the Fulani Arabs or "Africans" and again, I'm waiting for that definition of an "African".
LOL, they're not Arab; many Africans and non Africans alike have traditionally claimed Arab ancestry in oder to 'connect' themselves with the Arabic culture. But then again almost all of them claims are FALSE, i.e. myths.
The Fulani people are genetically, culturally, and linguistically African, specifically West African.
"While some have speculated over the origin of Fulani people, current linguistic and genetic evidence suggests an indigenous West African origin among the Peul. The vast majority of genetic lineages associated with them reflect those most commonly seen in other west Africans. Their language is also of west African origin, most closely related to that of the Wolof and Serer ethnic groups. Historical and archaeological records indicate that Peul-speakers have resided in western Africa since at least the 5th century A.D. as well. Interestingly, rock paintings in the Tassili-n-Ajjer suggests the presence of proto-Fulani cultural traits in the region by at least the fourth millennium B.C. Scholars specializing in Fulani culture believe that some of the imagery depicts rituals that are still practiced by contemporary Fulani people."
The same thing can be said about the indigenous Northwest African Tuareg population, who are genetically related to various groups in West, North, and East Africa.
"The Tuareg are probably descended from ancient Saharan peoples described by Herodotus. He described the ancient Libyan people of the kingdom of the Garamantes, of which archaeological evidence is found in the ruins of Germa."
'African' people are a group of genetically and physically diverse people with a general common ancestral origin inside of Africa. i.e. West Africans, Saharo-Sudanics, Berbers, Arabnized North Africans, Northeast Africans, Khoisans, etc.
Funny, Arabs speak a Semetic language, i.e. an African sub-family, LOL.
Are Arabs African? [/QB]
You ask if Arabs are African, but you haven't defined what an African is. Can you show me an example of the term "African" being used in history? And when I say history, I mean history. Can you show me an example of those people you are calling African calling themselves African before the coming of the European colonizers?
Posts: 895 | Registered: Feb 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Narmer Menes: So, because the Fulani were propagators of the Islamic faith, they are Arab's... correct?
So by that same logic, Roman's being propogators of the Christian faith are Israeli?
Brother, this article does not support a claim that the Fulani are not African. Practising an acquired faith and speaking an acquired language does not magically transport ones location to another continent.
quote: Also read this and read what it says manuscript number 43 says about the origin of the Fulani:
The Fulani
The Fulani are nomadic people and are well-known for their herds of cattle. They are astute merchants and excellent Islamic scholars. The Fulani, the Tuareg and Arabs have been instrumental in spreading Islam in West Africa. They are nation builders and ruled over the Futa Jallon and Futa Tora. Under the leadership of Shayk Ahmadu, they formed the caliphate of Massina. In the 18th century, the famous Fulani scholar and warrior Uthman Dan Fodio founded the Sokoto caliphate in northern Nigeria. The Fulani produced most of the eminent scholars of Jenne and Massina. According to the manuscript number 43 of Ahmed Baba Center in Timbuktu, the Fulani trace their lineage back to the Koraysh of Mecca through Oqba ibn Yasir who married a Fulani princess of Futa Toro by the name of Madeumaa. From this marriage she had four boys. They are the ancestors of the Fulani tribes: these are the Diallo, Dicko, Sangare, Balde' or Ba, Barry and Diakite. Today, the Fulani are mainly in West Africa.
Are the Fulani Arabs or "Africans" and again, I'm waiting for that definition of an "African".
Brother where does it say that because the Fulani were propagators of the Islamic faith, they are Arabs??? It says, "the Fulani trace their lineage back to the Koraysh of Mecca through Oqba ibn Yasir who married a Fulani princess of Futa Toro by the name of Madeumaa". Are we looking at the same article?
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quote:Originally posted by Narmer Menes: They are not Arab, and only a minority are/were Berber, they are African. They spoke Arab, just like New Testament Christian's spoke and wrote in Greek. Did you completely overlook the part of the video where they said the Arabic script had been used to write several African languages like Hausa, Fulani etc. The knowledge of these books is African knowledge predating the advent of Islam/Arab in that part of the continent. Not every Arabic speaker is an Arab. African's are African's, Mali & Songhai were African empires, consisting predominantly of West African peoples, along with some Berbers.
quote:Originally posted by awlaadberry:
quote:Originally posted by dknytx:
quote:Originally posted by awlaadberry: Also notice the similar way that the women dance. Look at the way the women in that clip dance and then look at how these Saharan Arab women dance: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJKvi2kUAIQ . Same people, same customs.
They are not Arab. They're Berber, probably Tuareg. The dance is called guedra.
They are Tuaregs and Tuaregs are of Himyarite Arab origin. See pages 107 and 108 of my book The Unknown Arabs. Also read this:
The Tuaregs
The Tuaregs are nomadic people and desert dwellers. The Tuareg are either Messufa, Lamtuna, or Judaala, who traced their ancestry back to the Sanhaja. The Sanhaja traced their lineage back to the Himyar who are people of Southern Arabia. They, however, lived among the Berbers before crossing the Sahara and settling in West Africa. They are the founders of the city of Timbuktu. They contributed scholarly and commercially to the legacy of Timbuktu. Today, the Tuareg live in Mali and Niger.
Who wasn't Arab? The people in the video who said that they are Arabs or the Tuareg, who historians and genealogists say are of Arab origin? And what do you mean by "African"???
and tell me what you understood from her. Are you saying that she and her people aren't Arabs? Also, did you read the book Roots by Alex Haley? Have you heard of Kunta Kinti? Doesn't the book say that his ancestor was in Mali? Here are the Kunta of Mali:
Are they Arabs or "Africans"? And I'm still waiting for you to explain to me what an "African" is.
Also read this and read what it says manuscript number 43 says about the origin of the Fulani:
The Fulani
The Fulani are nomadic people and are well-known for their herds of cattle. They are astute merchants and excellent Islamic scholars. The Fulani, the Tuareg and Arabs have been instrumental in spreading Islam in West Africa. They are nation builders and ruled over the Futa Jallon and Futa Tora. Under the leadership of Shayk Ahmadu, they formed the caliphate of Massina. In the 18th century, the famous Fulani scholar and warrior Uthman Dan Fodio founded the Sokoto caliphate in northern Nigeria. The Fulani produced most of the eminent scholars of Jenne and Massina. According to the manuscript number 43 of Ahmed Baba Center in Timbuktu, the Fulani trace their lineage back to the Koraysh of Mecca through Oqba ibn Yasir who married a Fulani princess of Futa Toro by the name of Madeumaa. From this marriage she had four boys. They are the ancestors of the Fulani tribes: these are the Diallo, Dicko, Sangare, Balde' or Ba, Barry and Diakite. Today, the Fulani are mainly in West Africa.
Are the Fulani Arabs or "Africans" and again, I'm waiting for that definition of an "African".
LOL, they're not Arab; many Africans and non Africans alike have traditionally claimed Arab ancestry in oder to 'connect' themselves with the Arabic culture. But then again almost all of them claims are FALSE, i.e. myths.
The Fulani people are genetically, culturally, and linguistically African, specifically West African.
"While some have speculated over the origin of Fulani people, current linguistic and genetic evidence suggests an indigenous West African origin among the Peul. The vast majority of genetic lineages associated with them reflect those most commonly seen in other west Africans. Their language is also of west African origin, most closely related to that of the Wolof and Serer ethnic groups. Historical and archaeological records indicate that Peul-speakers have resided in western Africa since at least the 5th century A.D. as well. Interestingly, rock paintings in the Tassili-n-Ajjer suggests the presence of proto-Fulani cultural traits in the region by at least the fourth millennium B.C. Scholars specializing in Fulani culture believe that some of the imagery depicts rituals that are still practiced by contemporary Fulani people."
The same thing can be said about the indigenous Northwest African Tuareg population, who are genetically related to various groups in West, North, and East Africa.
"The Tuareg are probably descended from ancient Saharan peoples described by Herodotus. He described the ancient Libyan people of the kingdom of the Garamantes, of which archaeological evidence is found in the ruins of Germa."
'African' people are a group of genetically and physically diverse people with a general common ancestral origin inside of Africa. i.e. West Africans, Saharo-Sudanics, Berbers, Arabnized North Africans, Northeast Africans, Khoisans, etc.
Funny, Arabs speak a Semetic language, i.e. an African sub-family, LOL.
Are Arabs African? [/QB]
So the poor girl in the video clip who told you that she is of Arab origin is misinformed about her origin? Is this what you are saying? So the writers of the manuscripts who said that the Fulani and the Tuareg are of Arab origin don't know anything - they were just liars trying to "connect"? Is this what you are saying?
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To ask for a definition of what is an "African", when clearly you are asking for a definition not of the modern geo-political term, opens up a can where one would then ask, what is your definition of "arab origin" in the same sense, since we also know people of antiquity didn't call themselves "arabs" either. Obviously everyone here has not indulged in your book as of yet. This can help in keeping this thread from chasing it's own tail.
Posts: 455 | From: Tharsis Montes | Registered: Jan 2009
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quote:Originally posted by The Gaul: Brotha Awlaad
To ask for a definition of what is an "African", when clearly you are asking for a definition not of the modern geo-political term, opens up a can where one would then ask, what is your definition of "arab origin" in the same sense, since we know people of antiquity also didn't call themselves "arabs". Obviously everyone here has not indulged in your book as of yet. This can help in keeping this thread from chasing it's own tail.
People of antiquity did call themselves Arabs and an Arab is someone who is descended from either Qahtan, Adnan or Aram - who are all descendants of Sam the son of Noah.
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quote:Originally posted by The Gaul: Brotha Awlaad
To ask for a definition of what is an "African", when clearly you are asking for a definition not of the modern geo-political term, opens up a can where one would then ask, what is your definition of "arab origin" in the same sense, since we know people of antiquity also didn't call themselves "arabs". Obviously everyone here has not indulged in your book as of yet. This can help in keeping this thread from chasing it's own tail.
People of antiquity did call themselves Arabs and an Arab is someone who is descended from either Qahtan, Adnan or Aram - who are all descendants of Sam the son of Noah.
I think you've went over this once before, but what of the origin of "Habashat" then? They also go by "arab"? I need to do more study in this area but the spare time is wanting. I'll be ordering your book for summer reading.
Posts: 455 | From: Tharsis Montes | Registered: Jan 2009
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quote:Originally posted by The Gaul: Brotha Awlaad
To ask for a definition of what is an "African", when clearly you are asking for a definition not of the modern geo-political term, opens up a can where one would then ask, what is your definition of "arab origin" in the same sense, since we know people of antiquity also didn't call themselves "arabs". Obviously everyone here has not indulged in your book as of yet. This can help in keeping this thread from chasing it's own tail.
People of antiquity did call themselves Arabs and an Arab is someone who is descended from either Qahtan, Adnan or Aram - who are all descendants of Sam the son of Noah.
I think you've went over this once before, but what of the origin of "Habashat" then? They also go by "arab"? I need to do more study in this area but the spare time is wanting. I'll be ordering your book for summer reading.
Yes. The Habashat are from the Yemen.
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posted
"According to the manuscript number 43 of Ahmed Baba Center in Timbuktu, the Fulani trace their lineage back to the Koraysh of Mecca through Oqba ibn Yasir who married a Fulani princess of Futa Toro by the name of Madeumaa"
Notice, if he married a Fulani Princess, then the Fulani predate this union... Futa Toro is in Senegal
Once again, please explain how the Fulani are Arab. Basically, at most, this historical lineage only proposes that a man from Arabia married into a FULLY African royal lineage. His inclusion in their bloodline doesn't suddenly make the Fulani Arab... and it certainly doesn't make their origins Arabian.
quote:Originally posted by awlaadberry:
quote:Originally posted by Narmer Menes: So, because the Fulani were propagators of the Islamic faith, they are Arab's... correct?
So by that same logic, Roman's being propogators of the Christian faith are Israeli?
Brother, this article does not support a claim that the Fulani are not African. Practising an acquired faith and speaking an acquired language does not magically transport ones location to another continent.
quote: Also read this and read what it says manuscript number 43 says about the origin of the Fulani:
The Fulani
The Fulani are nomadic people and are well-known for their herds of cattle. They are astute merchants and excellent Islamic scholars. The Fulani, the Tuareg and Arabs have been instrumental in spreading Islam in West Africa. They are nation builders and ruled over the Futa Jallon and Futa Tora. Under the leadership of Shayk Ahmadu, they formed the caliphate of Massina. In the 18th century, the famous Fulani scholar and warrior Uthman Dan Fodio founded the Sokoto caliphate in northern Nigeria. The Fulani produced most of the eminent scholars of Jenne and Massina. According to the manuscript number 43 of Ahmed Baba Center in Timbuktu, the Fulani trace their lineage back to the Koraysh of Mecca through Oqba ibn Yasir who married a Fulani princess of Futa Toro by the name of Madeumaa. From this marriage she had four boys. They are the ancestors of the Fulani tribes: these are the Diallo, Dicko, Sangare, Balde' or Ba, Barry and Diakite. Today, the Fulani are mainly in West Africa.
Are the Fulani Arabs or "Africans" and again, I'm waiting for that definition of an "African".
Brother where does it say that because the Fulani were propagators of the Islamic faith, they are Arabs??? It says, "the Fulani trace their lineage back to the Koraysh of Mecca through Oqba ibn Yasir who married a Fulani princess of Futa Toro by the name of Madeumaa". Are we looking at the same article?
posted
these are great points ya ibn berry. the tuareg malian singer khaira arby, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQOUwlVvTiY I noticed, had a general style to these kuwaiti singers http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEYNnuQ0YNU I remember a music professor saying that african music was really arabic and i was staunchly against what he said then i actually took a look in their own lands and saw for myself that the the cultures have alot of general themes that are the same. i can see y the jews, greeks, romans and persians , those who the arabs used to call reds, thought that the terms ethiopians, saracens, arabs, sabeans, indians and moors were the same people. even the english up until a time did not distinguish between these people UNTIL COLONIALISM CREPT INTO THE SCENE strabo
quote:The land above the Gaetulians is that of the Garamantes, which lies parallel to the former and is the land whence the Carthaginian stones are brought.348 The Garamantes are said to be distant from the Aethiopians who live on the ocean a nine or ten days' journey, and from Ammon fifteen. Between the Gaetulians and our seaboard349 there p197are not only many plains, but also many mountains, large lakes, and rivers, some of which sink beneath the earth and become invisible. The inhabitants are very simple in their modes of life and in their dress; but the men have many wives and many children, and in other respects are like the nomadic Arabians;
quote:Now I have already stated364 that, setting out with only one city, Rome, the Romans acquired the whole of Italy through warfare and statesmanlike rulership, and that, after Italy, by exercising the same superior qualities, they also acquired the regions round about Italy. And of the continents, being three in number, they hold almost the whole of Europe, except that part of it which lies outside the Ister365 River and the parts along the ocean which lie between the Rhenus366 and the Tanaïs367 Rivers. Of Libya, the whole of the coast on Our Sea is subject to them; and the rest of the country is uninhabited or else inhabited only in a wretched or nomadic fashion. In like manner, of Asia also, the whole of the coast on our Sea is subject to them, unless one takes into account the regions of the Achaei and the Zygi and the Heniochi, who live a piratical and nomadic life in narrow and sterile districts; and of the interior and the country deep inland, one part is held by the Romans themselves and another by the Parthians and the barbarians beyond them; and on the east and north live Indians and Bactrians and Scythians, and then Arabians and Aethiopians;
diodorus
quote:But now that we have examined these matters we shall turn our account to the other parts of Asia which have not yet been described, and more especially to Arabia. This land is situated between Syria and Egypt, and is divided among many peoples of diverse characteristics
-------------------- لا اله الا الله و محمد الرسول الله Posts: 495 | From: anchorage, alaska | Registered: Feb 2007
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quote:"According to the manuscript number 43 of Ahmed Baba Center in Timbuktu, the Fulani trace their lineage back to the Koraysh of Mecca through Oqba ibn Yasir who married a Fulani princess of Futa Toro by the name of Madeumaa"
That's why I asked the brother.. Alaweedberry.if it was not just a case of a few or a small circle of displaced royals coming in and intermarrying with the locals, and as for the term Africa,and Africans that term goes back to the Afer a North African ethnic group whose name got to be used for the entire continent..but also Arabia was considered to be an extention of "Ethiopia"...and sometimes confused with the eastern part of the Nile as per the Greeks.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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Are they Arabs or "Africans"? And I'm still waiting for you to explain to me what an "African" is.
If you need someone to explain to you what an "African" is, then clearly you are in no condition to be formulating an argument here.
Furthermore, Malians are as "Arabic" as an Irish man.
Yes. I need someone to explain to me what an "African" is. Can you explain it to me? And you say "Malians are as "Arabic" as an Irish man". You need to go and teach that to those Malians on the clip who are telling you that they are Arabs and if only you could teach that to the writers of those manuscripts.
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quote:Originally posted by Narmer Menes: "According to the manuscript number 43 of Ahmed Baba Center in Timbuktu, the Fulani trace their lineage back to the Koraysh of Mecca through Oqba ibn Yasir who married a Fulani princess of Futa Toro by the name of Madeumaa"
Notice, if he married a Fulani Princess, then the Fulani predate this union... Futa Toro is in Senegal
Once again, please explain how the Fulani are Arab. Basically, at most, this historical lineage only proposes that a man from Arabia married into a FULLY African royal lineage. His inclusion in their bloodline doesn't suddenly make the Fulani Arab... and it certainly doesn't make their origins Arabian.
quote:Originally posted by awlaadberry:
quote:Originally posted by Narmer Menes: So, because the Fulani were propagators of the Islamic faith, they are Arab's... correct?
So by that same logic, Roman's being propogators of the Christian faith are Israeli?
Brother, this article does not support a claim that the Fulani are not African. Practising an acquired faith and speaking an acquired language does not magically transport ones location to another continent.
quote: Also read this and read what it says manuscript number 43 says about the origin of the Fulani:
The Fulani
The Fulani are nomadic people and are well-known for their herds of cattle. They are astute merchants and excellent Islamic scholars. The Fulani, the Tuareg and Arabs have been instrumental in spreading Islam in West Africa. They are nation builders and ruled over the Futa Jallon and Futa Tora. Under the leadership of Shayk Ahmadu, they formed the caliphate of Massina. In the 18th century, the famous Fulani scholar and warrior Uthman Dan Fodio founded the Sokoto caliphate in northern Nigeria. The Fulani produced most of the eminent scholars of Jenne and Massina. According to the manuscript number 43 of Ahmed Baba Center in Timbuktu, the Fulani trace their lineage back to the Koraysh of Mecca through Oqba ibn Yasir who married a Fulani princess of Futa Toro by the name of Madeumaa. From this marriage she had four boys. They are the ancestors of the Fulani tribes: these are the Diallo, Dicko, Sangare, Balde' or Ba, Barry and Diakite. Today, the Fulani are mainly in West Africa.
Are the Fulani Arabs or "Africans" and again, I'm waiting for that definition of an "African".
Brother where does it say that because the Fulani were propagators of the Islamic faith, they are Arabs??? It says, "the Fulani trace their lineage back to the Koraysh of Mecca through Oqba ibn Yasir who married a Fulani princess of Futa Toro by the name of Madeumaa". Are we looking at the same article?
Arabs are patrilineal. They trace their ancestry through their fathers. It takes just one union to start a tribe. The Fulanis that we know today are descendants of Uqba, who was an Arab.
"The Fulani trace their lineage back to the Koraysh of Mecca through Oqba ibn Yasir who married a Fulani princess of Futa Toro by the name of Madeumaa. From this marriage she had four boys. They are the ancestors of the Fulani tribes: these are the Diallo, Dicko, Sangare, Balde' or Ba, Barry and Diakite".
I've never heard of a Fulani being descended from someone other than the four sons of Uqba. Have you? All people that we call Fulani today are the descendants of Uqba and the woman from Futa Toro. That makes the Fulanis Arabs.
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quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: Narmer Menes
quote:"According to the manuscript number 43 of Ahmed Baba Center in Timbuktu, the Fulani trace their lineage back to the Koraysh of Mecca through Oqba ibn Yasir who married a Fulani princess of Futa Toro by the name of Madeumaa"
That's why I asked the brother.. Alaweedberry.if it was not just a case of a few or a small circle of displaced royals coming in and intermarrying with the locals, and as for the term Africa,and Africans that term goes back to the Afer a North African ethnic group whose name got to be used for the entire continent..but also Arabia was considered to be an extention of "Ethiopia"...and sometimes confused with the eastern part of the Nile as per the Greeks.
Brada please see my last response to Narmer. Concerning Afer, I understand that that term was used for people in the northern part of the area called "Africa", but people don't appear to mean that region or people from that region when they say "Africa" and "Africans". That's why I want to know what people who are speaking about history mean by "Africa" and "African". I also know that the Arabs called the region of Algeria and Tunisia Ifriqiyya. But again, I don't see people using the term to mean that region. That's why I want to know what people mean when they use the term. I think it's very dangerous and misleading to make new terms to refer to ancient people and use those terms when talking about history.
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quote:Originally posted by abdulkarem3: these are great points ya ibn berry. the tuareg malian singer khaira arby, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQOUwlVvTiY I noticed, had a general style to these kuwaiti singers http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEYNnuQ0YNU I remember a music professor saying that african music was really arabic and i was staunchly against what he said then i actually took a look in their own lands and saw for myself that the the cultures have alot of general themes that are the same. i can see y the jews, greeks, romans and persians , those who the arabs used to call reds, thought that the terms ethiopians, saracens, arabs, sabeans, indians and moors were the same people. even the english up until a time did not distinguish between these people UNTIL COLONIALISM CREPT INTO THE SCENE strabo
quote:The land above the Gaetulians is that of the Garamantes, which lies parallel to the former and is the land whence the Carthaginian stones are brought.348 The Garamantes are said to be distant from the Aethiopians who live on the ocean a nine or ten days' journey, and from Ammon fifteen. Between the Gaetulians and our seaboard349 there p197are not only many plains, but also many mountains, large lakes, and rivers, some of which sink beneath the earth and become invisible. The inhabitants are very simple in their modes of life and in their dress; but the men have many wives and many children, and in other respects are like the nomadic Arabians;
quote:Now I have already stated364 that, setting out with only one city, Rome, the Romans acquired the whole of Italy through warfare and statesmanlike rulership, and that, after Italy, by exercising the same superior qualities, they also acquired the regions round about Italy. And of the continents, being three in number, they hold almost the whole of Europe, except that part of it which lies outside the Ister365 River and the parts along the ocean which lie between the Rhenus366 and the Tanaïs367 Rivers. Of Libya, the whole of the coast on Our Sea is subject to them; and the rest of the country is uninhabited or else inhabited only in a wretched or nomadic fashion. In like manner, of Asia also, the whole of the coast on our Sea is subject to them, unless one takes into account the regions of the Achaei and the Zygi and the Heniochi, who live a piratical and nomadic life in narrow and sterile districts; and of the interior and the country deep inland, one part is held by the Romans themselves and another by the Parthians and the barbarians beyond them; and on the east and north live Indians and Bactrians and Scythians, and then Arabians and Aethiopians;
diodorus
quote:But now that we have examined these matters we shall turn our account to the other parts of Asia which have not yet been described, and more especially to Arabia. This land is situated between Syria and Egypt, and is divided among many peoples of diverse characteristics
Thanks for the clips brother AbdulKarim. I also remember reading something by an Arab music expert saying that what people call "African" music is in reality Arabic music. I can't remember where I read this or I might have seen it on a TV program.
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quote:Who told you that they "claim Arab origin in order to connect"??? In other words, they are lying about their origin? Is this what you are saying? Or maybe you mean they don't know their origin and they need others to come and tell them who they are. "Genetic evidence" , "Indigenous West African origin", "Historical and archaeological records indicate.." What do you mean by all of this? Is this your definition of an "African": "'African' people are a group of genetically and physically diverse people with a general common ancestral origin inside of Africa" ??? What on earth does that mean??? LOL [/QB]
It's general knowledge, people who are not traditionnally or biologically Arab have historically claimed false Arab origins in order to better confirme or vertify their Islamic association, PERIOD. They arn't exactly lying, since it was earlier generations who came up with these false tales... therefore myths became truths and legends over time. It happens all the time, many European and African kings traced their lineage to early Christian leaders, it dosen't mean it was true or an actual realistic claim.
"Genetic evidence"; Genetically these people you call "Arab" are not different from other Africans of opposing tribal affiliation. The Fulani and Tuareg are related to other Africans, for example: Bantu speaking peoples.
"Indigenous West African origin"; the Fulanu people originated in what is now known as WEST AFRICA, not ARABIA.
"Historical and archaeological records indicate.."; meaning their presence in West African is backed up by historical and archaelogical records, i.e. ruins, ancient settlements, etc.
They also speak a WEST AFRICAN LANGUAGE!!
"African' people are a group of genetically and physically diverse people with a general common ancestral origin inside of Africa"
Biologically speaking you can seperate Africans from non-Africans, Africans share a COMMON BIOLOGICAL ANCESTOR". Africans are more related to Africans then they are to other people outside the contident.
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quote:Arabs are patrilineal. They trace their ancestry through their fathers. It takes just one union to start a tribe. The Fulanis that we know today are descendants of Uqba, who was an Arab.
"The Fulani trace their lineage back to the Koraysh of Mecca through Oqba ibn Yasir who married a Fulani princess of Futa Toro by the name of Madeumaa. From this marriage she had four boys. They are the ancestors of the Fulani tribes: these are the Diallo, Dicko, Sangare, Balde' or Ba, Barry and Diakite".
I've never heard of a Fulani being descended from someone other than the four sons of Uqba. Have you? All people that we call Fulani today are the descendants of Uqba and the woman from Futa Toro. That makes the Fulanis Arabs. [/QB]
IT dosen't matter, they can trace their ancestry to whatever, it dosen't mean that they are genetically Arab or the lineage is in fact real. Your not making sence, if Ugba married a Fulani women, wouldn't the Fulani tribe are be in existence? or was she the only Fulani women in Africa at that time (sarcasm), historical evidence points to a very early Fulani presence as a tribe, i.e. some several thousand years.
Also, if Fulani's did indeed originate from a Arab-African union, why do modern Fulanis speak an African language(Fulani), practice an African culture, and are presently 100% genetically African.
Fulanis don't consider themselves Arab dude, if they were they would have clustered closer to Arabs genetically, but they DON'T.
The Ugba myth is most likely a tale made up by a ROYAL Fulani family to legitimize their Islamic faith.
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quote:Thanks for the clips brother AbdulKarim. I also remember reading something by an Arab music expert saying that what people call "African" music is in reality Arabic music. I can't remember where I read this or I might have seen it on a TV program. [/QB]
Bullshit, now your claiming everything African as "Arab", you are so pathetically mistaken, try running your mouth in Aksum and Agedez about African culture being Arab... the response will be a harsh lesson in your part.
"Arab" music is actually an extention of a traditional indigenous African cultural base.
Arabs speak a Semetic language, Semetic belongs to one of the four or more African linguistic families... Afrasan.
"The Semitic family is a member of the larger Afroasiatic family, all of whose other five or more branches are based in Africa. Largely for this reason, the ancestors of Proto-Semitic speakers are believed by many to have first arrived in the Middle East from Africa, possibly as part of the operation of the Saharan pump, around the late Neolithic"
Therefore suggesting an African origin for Arab associated traditions.
Not only language but a nomadic based culture, and as well as various genetic lineages.
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quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: Narmer Menes
quote:"According to the manuscript number 43 of Ahmed Baba Center in Timbuktu, the Fulani trace their lineage back to the Koraysh of Mecca through Oqba ibn Yasir who married a Fulani princess of Futa Toro by the name of Madeumaa"
That's why I asked the brother.. Alaweedberry.if it was not just a case of a few or a small circle of displaced royals coming in and intermarrying with the locals, and as for the term Africa,and Africans that term goes back to the Afer a North African ethnic group whose name got to be used for the entire continent..but also Arabia was considered to be an extention of "Ethiopia"...and sometimes confused with the eastern part of the Nile as per the Greeks.
Brada please see my last response to Narmer. Concerning Afer, I understand that that term was used for people in the northern part of the area called "Africa", but people don't appear to mean that region or people from that region when they say "Africa" and "Africans". That's why I want to know what people who are speaking about history mean by "Africa" and "African". I also know that the Arabs called the region of Algeria and Tunisia Ifriqiyya. But again, I don't see people using the term to mean that region. That's why I want to know what people mean when they use the term. I think it's very dangerous and misleading to make new terms to refer to ancient people and use those terms when talking about history.
it dosen't matter what people call the continent of Africa or Africans, There is a geographic, biological, linguistic, and ancestral "Africa".
Africa was known by many things, for example Ethiopia, Libya, Sudan...
Names change.
North Africans are African as well, they are genetically RELATED to other Africans. coastal North Africans may be to an extent "mixed race" and in some cases ARABNIZED, they're still largely African genetically. Not to mention some retained African cultural traits.
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Are they Arabs or "Africans"? And I'm still waiting for you to explain to me what an "African" is.
If you need someone to explain to you what an "African" is, then clearly you are in no condition to be formulating an argument here.
Furthermore, Malians are as "Arabic" as an Irish man.
Yes. I need someone to explain to me what an "African" is. Can you explain it to me? And you say "Malians are as "Arabic" as an Irish man". You need to go and teach that to those Malians on the clip who are telling you that they are Arabs and if only you could teach that to the writers of those manuscripts.
I've already explained to you what "African" means.
Showing us a clip of a few Malians who "trace" part of their lineage to Arabia, isn't evidence. FYI, I'm from Mali... Timbaktu to be exact, and I'm of Songhai and Tuareg heritage. I've NEVER met a Tuareg claim Arab ancestry, or any other Malian other then the FEW Arabnized Baggara tribes to the south (I can't see the video, but if those people you speak of are from Mali, they are Baggara).
The Baggara are genetically Nilo-Saharan, but they were Arabnized culturally and linguistically, but they are not genetically related to Arabs.
"As with Moroccans, Algerians and most other non-Arabian Peninsula Arabs, most Sudanese Arabs are "Arabs" in linguistic, cultural and ethnic association. They descended primarily from the pre-existing INDIGENOUS POPULATION; that is, the ancient Nubians."
"The Nubians share a common history with Egypt. In common with much of the rest of the Arab World, the gradual process of Arabisation in northern Sudan led to the predominance of the Arabic language and aspects of Arab culture, leading to the shift among a majority of northern Sudanese today to an Arab ethnic identity."
West Africa's ancient scholars never claimed "Arab" ancestry, they actually took pride in their indigenous ancestry, by using Ajami to write their own languages, and to illustrate their own traditional knowledge culture.
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quote:Originally posted by The Gaul: Brotha Awlaad
To ask for a definition of what is an "African", when clearly you are asking for a definition not of the modern geo-political term, opens up a can where one would then ask, what is your definition of "arab origin" in the same sense, since we know people of antiquity also didn't call themselves "arabs". Obviously everyone here has not indulged in your book as of yet. This can help in keeping this thread from chasing it's own tail.
People of antiquity did call themselves Arabs and an Arab is someone who is descended from either Qahtan, Adnan or Aram - who are all descendants of Sam the son of Noah.
Most Arabs are NOT the descendets of either of those men, they are several classification of what an Arab is.
"Islamized but non-Arabized peoples, and therefore the majority, or 80% of the world's Muslim population, do not form part of the Arab World, but instead comprise what is the geographically larger, and more diverse, Muslim World.
In the modern era, defining who is an Arab is done on the grounds of one or more of the following three criteria:
Genealogical: someone who can trace his or her ancestry to the tribes of Arabia – the original inhabitants of the Arabian Peninsula – and the Syrian Desert. This definition was the definition used in medieval times, for example by Ibn Khaldun,[dubious – discuss] but has decreased in importance as more people have come to identify as Arabs.
Linguistic: someone whose first language, and by extension cultural expression, is Arabic, including any of its varieties. This definition covers more than 300 million people. Certain groups that fulfill this criterion reject this definition on the basis of non-Arab ancestry, such an example may be seen in the way that Egyptians identify themselves.
"Political: in the modern nationalist era, any person who is a citizen of a country where Arabic is either the national language or one of the official languages, and/or a citizen of a country which may simply be a member of the Arab League (thereby having Arabic as an official government language, even if not used by the majority of the population). This definition would cover over 300 million people. It may be the most contested definition, as it is the most simplistic one. It would exclude the entire Arab diaspora outside of the Arab world, but include not only people with Arab ancestry (Gulf Arabs and others, such as Bedouins, where they may exist) or who identify themselves as Arabs, but would also include Arabized groups who do not identify themselves as Arabs (including many Lebanese and many Egyptians, both Christians and Muslims) and even non-Arabized ethnic minorities who have remained non-Arabic-speaking (such as the Berbers in Morocco, Kurds in Iraq, or the Somali majority of Arab League member Somalia).
Most people who consider themselves Arab do so based on the overlap of the political and linguistic definitions."
"The relation of ʿarab and ʾaʿrāb is complicated further by the notion of "lost Arabs" al-ʿArab al-ba'ida mentioned in the Qur'an as punished for their disbelief. All contemporary Arabs WERE considered as descended from two ancestors, Qahtan and Adnan."
^this is no longer the case
"In much of this area, the Arabs spread Islam and the Arabic language (the language of the Qur'an) through conversion and cultural assimilation. Many groups became known as "Arabs" through this process of Arabization rather than through descent. Thus, over time, the term Arab came to carry a broader meaning than the original ethnic term: cultural Arab vs. ethnic Arab. Arab nationalism declares that Arabs are united in a shared history, culture and language."
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quote:Who told you that they "claim Arab origin in order to connect"??? In other words, they are lying about their origin? Is this what you are saying? Or maybe you mean they don't know their origin and they need others to come and tell them who they are. "Genetic evidence" , "Indigenous West African origin", "Historical and archaeological records indicate.." What do you mean by all of this? Is this your definition of an "African": "'African' people are a group of genetically and physically diverse people with a general common ancestral origin inside of Africa" ??? What on earth does that mean??? LOL
It's general knowledge, people who are not traditionnally or biologically Arab have historically claimed false Arab origins in order to better confirme or vertify their Islamic association, PERIOD. They arn't exactly lying, since it was earlier generations who came up with these false tales... therefore myths became truths and legends over time. It happens all the time, many European and African kings traced their lineage to early Christian leaders, it dosen't mean it was true or an actual realistic claim.
"Genetic evidence"; Genetically these people you call "Arab" are not different from other Africans of opposing tribal affiliation. The Fulani and Tuareg are related to other Africans, for example: Bantu speaking peoples.
"Indigenous West African origin"; the Fulanu people originated in what is now known as WEST AFRICA, not ARABIA.
"Historical and archaeological records indicate.."; meaning their presence in West African is backed up by historical and archaelogical records, i.e. ruins, ancient settlements, etc.
They also speak a WEST AFRICAN LANGUAGE!!
"African' people are a group of genetically and physically diverse people with a general common ancestral origin inside of Africa"
Biologically speaking you can seperate Africans from non-Africans, Africans share a COMMON BIOLOGICAL ANCESTOR". Africans are more related to Africans then they are to other people outside the contident. [/QB]
You say "Genetically these people you call "Arab" are not different from other Africans of opposing tribal affiliation."
Different how? Do you mean appearance? If so, who said that they had a different appearance?
You say, "the Fulanu people originated in what is now known as WEST AFRICA, not ARABIA."
Despite the fact that you don't like this, the Fulani that we know today originate from Uqba and Uqba is from Arabia.
You say, "Historical and archaeological records indicate.."; meaning their presence in West African is backed up by historical and archaelogical records, i.e. ruins, ancient settlements, etc"
Whose presence? The descendants of Uqba and the woman from Futa Toro? Because these are the Fulanis today. These are the people we mean when we say Fulanis.
You say, "They also speak a WEST AFRICAN LANGUAGE"
So what? So-called "African Americans" speak English, but they aren't British. I'm speaking about blood, not language. Any group of people can adopt a language just like they can lose their original language.
You say, "African' people are a group of genetically and physically diverse people with a general common ancestral origin inside of Africa"
I don't understand that definition. Can you break it down? And who is this common ancestor?
You say, "Biologically speaking you can seperate Africans from non-Africans"
How can you separate them? Explain.
You say, "Africans are more related to Africans then they are to other people outside the contident"
What is your proof of this? And who are these "Africans" who are more related to "Africans"? And what makes them more related to each other? How do you know how related they are if you can't give me names? Who are their ancestors and what proof do you have? You say that the Fulani aren't from Uqba, so tell me and tell them who they are from.
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quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: Narmer Menes
quote:"According to the manuscript number 43 of Ahmed Baba Center in Timbuktu, the Fulani trace their lineage back to the Koraysh of Mecca through Oqba ibn Yasir who married a Fulani princess of Futa Toro by the name of Madeumaa"
That's why I asked the brother.. Alaweedberry.if it was not just a case of a few or a small circle of displaced royals coming in and intermarrying with the locals, and as for the term Africa,and Africans that term goes back to the Afer a North African ethnic group whose name got to be used for the entire continent..but also Arabia was considered to be an extention of "Ethiopia"...and sometimes confused with the eastern part of the Nile as per the Greeks.
Brada please see my last response to Narmer. Concerning Afer, I understand that that term was used for people in the northern part of the area called "Africa", but people don't appear to mean that region or people from that region when they say "Africa" and "Africans". That's why I want to know what people who are speaking about history mean by "Africa" and "African". I also know that the Arabs called the region of Algeria and Tunisia Ifriqiyya. But again, I don't see people using the term to mean that region. That's why I want to know what people mean when they use the term. I think it's very dangerous and misleading to make new terms to refer to ancient people and use those terms when talking about history.
it dosen't matter what people call the continent of Africa or Africans, There is a geographic, biological, linguistic, and ancestral "Africa".
Africa was known by many things, for example Ethiopia, Libya, Sudan...
Names change.
North Africans are African as well, they are genetically RELATED to other Africans. coastal North Africans may be to an extent "mixed race" and in some cases ARABNIZED, they're still largely African genetically. Not to mention some retained African cultural traits.
Who told you it doesn't matter what people called the continent? Are you telling me that you think that the whole "continent" was called Ethiopia or Sudan or Libya?! That's not true at all!
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Are they Arabs or "Africans"? And I'm still waiting for you to explain to me what an "African" is.
If you need someone to explain to you what an "African" is, then clearly you are in no condition to be formulating an argument here.
Furthermore, Malians are as "Arabic" as an Irish man.
Yes. I need someone to explain to me what an "African" is. Can you explain it to me? And you say "Malians are as "Arabic" as an Irish man". You need to go and teach that to those Malians on the clip who are telling you that they are Arabs and if only you could teach that to the writers of those manuscripts.
I've already explained to you what "African" means.
Showing us a clip of a few Malians who "trace" part of their lineage to Arabia, isn't evidence. FYI, I'm from Mali... Timbaktu to be exact, and I'm of Songhai and Tuareg heritage. I've NEVER met a Tuareg claim Arab ancestry, or any other Malian other then the FEW Arabnized Baggara tribes to the south (I can't see the video, but if those people you speak of are from Mali, they are Baggara).
The Baggara are genetically Nilo-Saharan, but they were Arabnized culturally and linguistically, but they are not genetically related to Arabs.
"As with Moroccans, Algerians and most other non-Arabian Peninsula Arabs, most Sudanese Arabs are "Arabs" in linguistic, cultural and ethnic association. They descended primarily from the pre-existing INDIGENOUS POPULATION; that is, the ancient Nubians."
"The Nubians share a common history with Egypt. In common with much of the rest of the Arab World, the gradual process of Arabisation in northern Sudan led to the predominance of the Arabic language and aspects of Arab culture, leading to the shift among a majority of northern Sudanese today to an Arab ethnic identity."
West Africa's ancient scholars never claimed "Arab" ancestry, they actually took pride in their indigenous ancestry, by using Ajami to write their own languages, and to illustrate their own traditional knowledge culture.
Because you are from Mali doesn't mean that you know the history of your people. If you say that you have never heard of the Tuareg being of Arab origin, you need to talk more to your people and to those who know something about their history. You also need to read more of the manuscripts found in your country. I guess you have never heard of As-Sa'adi and Ka'ati and Ahmad Baba and Baghayogho. You need to do more reading and believe more of what YOUR Malian scholars of the past said about YOUR history if you are from Songhai and Tuareg. That's my advice to you for what it's worth. Your being from Mali means nothing to me if you don't accept what Malian scholars said about the history of the people of Mali.
And the Baggara are Sudanese tribes? Are they in Mali too? Which Baggara tribes are in Mali? The Baggara are not Arabized. They are Arabs in origin and tongue.
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quote:Originally posted by The Gaul: Brotha Awlaad
To ask for a definition of what is an "African", when clearly you are asking for a definition not of the modern geo-political term, opens up a can where one would then ask, what is your definition of "arab origin" in the same sense, since we know people of antiquity also didn't call themselves "arabs". Obviously everyone here has not indulged in your book as of yet. This can help in keeping this thread from chasing it's own tail.
People of antiquity did call themselves Arabs and an Arab is someone who is descended from either Qahtan, Adnan or Aram - who are all descendants of Sam the son of Noah.
Most Arabs are NOT the descendets of either of those men, they are several classification of what an Arab is.
"Islamized but non-Arabized peoples, and therefore the majority, or 80% of the world's Muslim population, do not form part of the Arab World, but instead comprise what is the geographically larger, and more diverse, Muslim World.
In the modern era, defining who is an Arab is done on the grounds of one or more of the following three criteria:
Genealogical: someone who can trace his or her ancestry to the tribes of Arabia – the original inhabitants of the Arabian Peninsula – and the Syrian Desert. This definition was the definition used in medieval times, for example by Ibn Khaldun,[dubious – discuss] but has decreased in importance as more people have come to identify as Arabs.
Linguistic: someone whose first language, and by extension cultural expression, is Arabic, including any of its varieties. This definition covers more than 300 million people. Certain groups that fulfill this criterion reject this definition on the basis of non-Arab ancestry, such an example may be seen in the way that Egyptians identify themselves.
"Political: in the modern nationalist era, any person who is a citizen of a country where Arabic is either the national language or one of the official languages, and/or a citizen of a country which may simply be a member of the Arab League (thereby having Arabic as an official government language, even if not used by the majority of the population). This definition would cover over 300 million people. It may be the most contested definition, as it is the most simplistic one. It would exclude the entire Arab diaspora outside of the Arab world, but include not only people with Arab ancestry (Gulf Arabs and others, such as Bedouins, where they may exist) or who identify themselves as Arabs, but would also include Arabized groups who do not identify themselves as Arabs (including many Lebanese and many Egyptians, both Christians and Muslims) and even non-Arabized ethnic minorities who have remained non-Arabic-speaking (such as the Berbers in Morocco, Kurds in Iraq, or the Somali majority of Arab League member Somalia).
Most people who consider themselves Arab do so based on the overlap of the political and linguistic definitions."
"The relation of ʿarab and ʾaʿrāb is complicated further by the notion of "lost Arabs" al-ʿArab al-ba'ida mentioned in the Qur'an as punished for their disbelief. All contemporary Arabs WERE considered as descended from two ancestors, Qahtan and Adnan."
^this is no longer the case
"In much of this area, the Arabs spread Islam and the Arabic language (the language of the Qur'an) through conversion and cultural assimilation. Many groups became known as "Arabs" through this process of Arabization rather than through descent. Thus, over time, the term Arab came to carry a broader meaning than the original ethnic term: cultural Arab vs. ethnic Arab. Arab nationalism declares that Arabs are united in a shared history, culture and language."
And when I speak to you about Arab, I mean someone descended from Qahtan, Adnan, or Aram. I'm not speaking about language or anything else.
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Yes. I need someone to explain to me what an "African" is.
Then this forum is way in over your head. You need to get 2nd grade geography in the bag first, before you can speak of more complex issues.
quote: Can you explain it to me?
Yes; it is the name of a continent, and its people. That wasn't hard, now was it.
quote: And you say "Malians are as "Arabic" as an Irish man".
I did. What of it?
quote: You need to go and teach that to those Malians on the clip who are telling you that they are Arabs
Which Malians call themselves "Arabs", and in what *exact* words, and in what language? Is that language "Arabic"; if not, why is that the case?
quote: and if only you could teach that to the writers of those manuscripts.
Which *specific* Malian-native writer of the manuscript says he is "Arab", rather than well, a Malian-native? Names!
On that note, I suppose if I used your logic, even if there were some grain of truth to your proclamations here, which is questionable at any rate, then I would have to teach all those people who think that they descend from Adam and Eve in the "Garden of Eden", which some place somewhere in "Southwest Asia", the facts of genealogical information to the contrary. It is not uncommon to find segments of African societies formulate legends that connect them to some religious eponymous ancestor in some holy land, which places that ancestor elsewhere other than Africa. I take those sort of matters as religion, nothing more or less, and hence, don't bother with trying to convince the bearers of such beliefs one way or the other. However, if you wish to discuss REALITY and FACTS, then that is another matter altogether.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Yes. I need someone to explain to me what an "African" is.
Then this forum is way in over your head. You need to get 2nd grade geography in the bag first, before you can speak of more complex issues.
quote: Can you explain it to me?
Yes; it is the name of a continent, and its people. That wasn't hard, now was it.
quote: And you say "Malians are as "Arabic" as an Irish man".
I did. What of it?
quote: You need to go and teach that to those Malians on the clip who are telling you that they are Arabs
Which Malians call themselves "Arabs", and in what *exact* words, and in what language? Is that language "Arabic"; if not, why is that the case?
quote: and if only you could teach that to the writers of those manuscripts.
Which *specific* Malian-native writer of the manuscript says he is "Arab", rather than well, a Malian-native? Names!
On that note, I suppose if I used your logic, even if there were some grain of truth to your proclamations here, which is questionable at any rate, then I would have to teach all those people who think that they descend from Adam and Eve in the "Garden of Eden", which some place somewhere in "Southwest Asia", the facts of genealogical information to the contrary. It is not uncommon to find segments of African societies formulate legends that connect them to some religious eponymous ancestor in some holy land, which places that ancestor elsewhere other than Africa. I take those sort of matters as religion, nothing more or less, and hence, don't bother with trying to convince the bearers of such beliefs one way or the other. However, if you wish to discuss REALITY and FACTS, then that is another matter altogether.
You say, "Yes; it is the name of a continent, and its people."
Do you really believe that is an intelligent answer to my question?
You say, "Which Malians call themselves "Arabs", and in what *exact* words, and in what language? "
It's here and she says it in Arabic and it is translated for you in English:
You say, "Which *specific* Malian-native writer of the manuscript says he is "Arab", rather than well, a Malian-native? Names!"
AbdurRahman As-Sa'adi says in Taarikh As-Sudan that the Sanhaja (Tuareg) are from the Yemen and he says that the Songhai are from the Yemen. Mahmud Ka'ati says in Taarikh Al-Fattach that the Songhai, Wangara (Mandingo), and Wakore (Soninke) are from the Yemen. According to the manuscript number 43 of Ahmed Baba Center in Timbuktu, the Fulani trace their lineage back to the Koraysh of Mecca through Oqba ibn Yasir..
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You aren't getting away that easy. If you can lazily pass off a link to a video, why can you not cite the *exact* words used, by whom specifically, and in what language? What do you have to hide?
quote: You say, "Which *specific* Malian-native writer of the manuscript says he is "Arab", rather than well, a Malian-native? Names!"
AbdurRahman As-Sa'adi says in Taarikh As-Sudan that the Sanhaja (Tuareg) are from the Yemen and he says that the Songhai are from the Yemen.
In what text and exact words does this fellow say this; and in what context?
Does this fellow specifically say that they are "Arabs", or does he simply connect himself with some eponymous ancestor as I mentioned above?
quote: Mahmud Ka'ati says in Taarikh Al-Fattach that the Songhai, Wangara (Mandingo), and Wakore (Soninke) are from the Yemen.
You know the drill; same applies here, as that requested right above.
quote: According to the manuscript number 43 of Ahmed Baba Center in Timbuktu, the Fulani trace their lineage back to the Koraysh of Mecca through Oqba ibn Yasir..
What is the title of this "manuscript". And just as I thought: another eponymous ancestor implicated in some holy land. Seriously, do you have anything concrete than legends espoused by some individual or another?
You have dodged my question about language earlier; I wonder why. Anyway, here's the deal:
What languages do the Tamasheq, Songhai, Wangara (Mandingo), and Wakore (Soninke) speak. Are these Arabic? If not, tell us why?
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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You aren't getting away that easy. If you can lazily pass off a link to a video, why can you not cite the *exact* words used, by whom specifically, and in what language? What do you have to hide?
quote: You say, "Which *specific* Malian-native writer of the manuscript says he is "Arab", rather than well, a Malian-native? Names!"
AbdurRahman As-Sa'adi says in Taarikh As-Sudan that the Sanhaja (Tuareg) are from the Yemen and he says that the Songhai are from the Yemen.
In what text and exact words does this fellow say this; and in what context?
Does this fellow specifically say that they are "Arabs", or does he simply connect himself with some eponymous ancestor as I mentioned above?
quote: Mahmud Ka'ati says in Taarikh Al-Fattach that the Songhai, Wangara (Mandingo), and Wakore (Soninke) are from the Yemen.
You know the drill; same applies here, as that requested right above.
quote: According to the manuscript number 43 of Ahmed Baba Center in Timbuktu, the Fulani trace their lineage back to the Koraysh of Mecca through Oqba ibn Yasir..
What is the title of this "manuscript". And just as I thought: another eponymous ancestor implicated in some holy land. Seriously, do you have anything concrete than legends espoused by some individual or another?
You have dodged my question about language earlier; I wonder why. Anyway, here's the deal:
What languages do the Tamasheq, Songhai, Wangara (Mandingo), and Wakore (Soninke) speak. Are these Arabic? If not, tell us why?
I think you just want to argue because you aren't making any sense. Do I have a logical idea about what?
And why can't you listen to the clip to hear for yourself what the girl says? It only lasts a few minutes. She says, "THIS WORK IS A PROTECTION OF THE MANUSCRIPTS AND OUR HERITAGE-OUR ARAB HERITAGE. THESE MANUSCRIPTS ARE OUR HISTORY AND ARE VERY USEFUL FOR US." and she said it in Arabic.
And as I said before, I'm not speaking about language, I'm speaking about origin and blood. Those tribes that you mentioned lost their original language. Is this something hard to understand?
If you don't believe what the writers of these manuscripts said about their history, there is nothing I can say to you.
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I think you just want to argue because you aren't making any sense. Do I have a logical idea about what?
In willful amnesia, now are we. It is simple. Only you don't seem to know what "Africa" is in the whole of this board, and possibly anywhere else. So, I'd say it is you who is not making sense here, and just arguing to defend an indefensible dogma; no? I'm willing to bet, a 3rd grade student would know what Africa is, if asked, and yet, somehow you just don't know. LOL
quote: And why can't you listen to the clip to hear for yourself what the girl says?
How do you know I haven't listened to the clip, which is besides the point. A better question is why you are so reluctant in delivering a simple request asked of you, not once, but three times now. What's going on?
quote: It only lasts a few minutes. She says, "THIS WORK IS A PROTECTION OF THE MANUSCRIPTS AND OUR HERITAGE-OUR ARAB HERITAGE. THESE MANUSCRIPTS ARE OUR HISTORY AND ARE VERY USEFUL FOR US." and she said it in Arabic.
There you go. Now, first of all: This was what was said, via a translator, not the woman in the video herself per se. Secondly, "our Arab heritage" is undefined here. It could simply be an allusion to Islamic culture, or even the fact that the manuscripts were written in a form of Arabic script.
Thirdly, as this request has forced you to show, it wasn't "girls", but a single Malian woman, whose words were being *translated* by an unseen third party narrator.
Fourthly, nowhere therein, is it claimed that either the woman in the video or Malians in general are Arabs. That is your own deduction.
quote: And as I said before, I'm not speaking about language
Well, I am. If language doesn't make one "Arabic", then what else does? How is it that you are trying to convince me or any other, that essentially all western Africans are of Arabic descent, and that they proudly mention this, but yet, none of them are proud enough to have retained that language?
quote:, I'm speaking about origin and blood. Those tribes lost their original language. Is this something hard to understand?
Yes, it is hard to understand, because you provide no explanation of how this came to be so, or proof for that matter that they even "lost their original language".
quote: If you don't believe what the writers of these manuscripts said about their history, there is nothing I can say to you.
It is not that I don't believe what these nameless, save for the *three* individuals that you mentioned whom you've never even read yourself, said about "their history", but rather your far-reaching interpretations of their nameless works, not to mention unspecified contexts.
Their history is not in Arabia, as that is not where they lived. Their history is in western Africa, where they actually lived.
Many of these same ethnic groups, that you mentioned, were around during ancient Ghana, and yet, it is not until essentially at waning periods of that complex that Islam begins to make a mark therein. These people were not speaking Arabic as the primary language even then; why is that?
Medieval Muslim scholars who speak of eponymous ancestors were not even around when the ethnogenesis of the groups you mentioned was in its infancy, let alone these legends. If that were so, Ghanaian complex would have been teeming with Muslims from the very start instead of bearing "pagan" traditions, not to mention its elites, as opposed to the declining periods.
None of the groups you mentioned actually call themselves "Arabs" other than you. Again, why?
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