posted
^ Are these the same as the '9 Bows' who were the traditional enemies of Egypt?? Can you name the other nations that made up these Pidjou?
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Are these the same as the '9 Bows' who were the traditional enemies of Egypt?? Can you name the other nations that made up these Pidjou?
The 'traditional enemy' of the USA is England, yet evaluate this relationship over the centuries...
So, we need to understand the language of a people; you know, what they recorded about themselves, in order to understand them and their history...
Ta Khent - "Land at the front", "Homeland"; the Sudan
Ta Set/Ta Sti - "Land of the Archers"; the Sudan
Top Sti - "Top (yes, Top!!!) Archers/Bowmen" The army of the Nine Sudanese ethnic groups who fought with the bow.
Khenti Ta Sti - "Head of the Land of the Bow"; Sudan; also a Sudanese 'god' or 'great ancestor'
onti - Sudanese bow
Onti Set/Sti - a man of the Sudanese desert; and those who lived on the Eastern desert as far north as Palestine... Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
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^ Yes, but can you name the all 9 nations or ethnies who made up the 9 bows? I am really interested and want to know.
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Human society consists of processes and is never static:
In the formation of Ancient Egypt, the 'Nine Bows' or 'Nine Nations' were the plurality of Sudanese, as well as Saharan Africans, that came to form this entity; the first Pan-African state on record - Ancient Egypt.
The ethnic groups, which I have attempted to show in other posts here , can be found in the totemic 'gods' found in the Mdu Ntr...
The idea of "traditional enemies" coming together, albeit through force, would later, ironically, become a generic term for all of the "inferior" nations that were outside of this political union of Ancient Egypt; who obviously missed the point of unity... Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
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The Haratin and Ikaradin or Tida Krit also have probably contributed to the ancient Badarian-Amratian populations the Beja in part descend from.
Haratin
Teda girl
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by DhulAlQarnain: Nice thread.
I am born of the Beja and Eritrea tribes of Sudan. I myself did a post asking if anyone of the African-American posters could trace their history back to Egypt. Not one person could give me evidence of such things. Not one has even tried to trace their own history to Africa. Repeating that same old line that everyone comes from Africa is all they seem to care about, but what part of Africa never seems to grace their mind.
It doesn't matter what part of Africa as many were brought through the same ports. For some it matters which of the dozens of people in Africa they may have come from. DNA from African Americans comes from populations all over Africa - from Sahara to east Africa as well as from outside of Africa.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by DhulAlQarnain: Nice thread.
I am born of the Beja and Eritrea tribes of Sudan. I myself did a post asking if anyone of the African-American posters could trace their history back to Egypt. Not one person could give me evidence of such things. Not one has even tried to trace their own history to Africa. Repeating that same old line that everyone comes from Africa is all they seem to care about, but what part of Africa never seems to grace their mind.
It doesn't matter what part of Africa as many were brought through the same ports. For some it matters which of the dozens of people in Africa they may have come from. DNA from African Americans comes from populations all over Africa - from Sahara to east Africa as well as from outside of Africa.
quote:Originally posted by DhulAlQarnain: Nice thread.
I am born of the Beja and Eritrea tribes of Sudan. I myself did a post asking if anyone of the African-American posters could trace their history back to Egypt. Not one person could give me evidence of such things. Not one has even tried to trace their own history to Africa. Repeating that same old line that everyone comes from Africa is all they seem to care about, but what part of Africa never seems to grace their mind.
It doesn't matter what part of Africa as many were brought through the same ports. For some it matters which of the dozens of people in Africa they may have come from. DNA from African Americans comes from populations all over Africa - from Sahara to east Africa as well as from outside of Africa.
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The title of the thread is misleading. The people ethnically the closest to the ancient Egyptians are the Nubians, as documented by numerous credible scholars, not the Beja, although the Beja certainly are part of the Nile Valley mix from earliest times.
As for African Americans "tracing their history" back to Egypt, they don't need to, nor do they need "permission" from self-styled Arab nativists, alleged Egyptian natives/nativists, or white people to study and comment on Egypt.
The Sahara was once a lush greenbelt extending across one-third of Africa, allowing the easy movement of peoples. Its climatic cycles - the fampus Saharan "pump" - was to create conditions for the movement of peoples into the Nile Valley, the Sahalian zone and elsewhere. But it remains the foundation.
Informed African-Americans do not conceive of Egypt as being created out of thin air. They begin at the Sahara, which providing the main source for the peopling of the Nile Valley, and laid the foundation and was the genesis of the Nile Valley Civilization. As far as peopling:
The Sahara is the key, the starting point, the genesis, the fundamental force - not Egypt which followed later.
quote:
"There is now a sufficient body of evidence from modern studies of skeletal remains to indicate that the ancient Egyptians, especially southern Egyptians, exhibited physical characteristics that are within the range of variation for ancient and modern indigenous peoples of the Sahara and tropical Africa.." (Nancy C. Lovell, " Egyptians, physical anthropology of," in Encyclopedia of the Archaeology of Ancient Egypt, ed. Kathryn A. Bard and Steven Blake Shubert, ( London and New York: Routledge, 1999) pp 328-332)
The Sahara was also a key player in the great West African civilizations that were to arise as well- Mali, Ghana, Timbuctu etc., from the Saharan trade, to the transmission of knowledge to the transmission of new methods and technologies such as use of the horse in warfare where the environment permitted it.
The Sahara is the great linking pin and transmission belt culturally. It is also the great climate and environmental motor that shaped one-third of Africa. As one study notes:
From: Climate-Controlled Holocene Occupation in the Sahara: Motor of Africa's Evolution by Rudolph Kuper and Stefan Kröpelin*
Radiocarbon data from 150 archaeological excavations in the now hyper-arid Eastern Sahara of Egypt, Sudan, Libya, and Chad reveal close links between climatic variations and prehistoric occupation during the past 12,000 years. Synoptic multiple-indicator views for major time slices demonstrate the transition from initial settlement after the sudden onset of humid conditions at 8500 B.C.E. to the exodus resulting from gradual desiccation since 5300 B.C.E. Southward shifting of the desert margin helped trigger the emergence of pharaonic civilization along the Nile, influenced the spread of pastoralism throughout the continent, and affects sub-Saharan Africa to the present day.
Informed African Americans place Egypt in its proper context as a tropical civilization.
Tropial limb proportion studies place black Americans closer to ancient Egyptians than others as well.
And Haplogroup E and the PN2 transition of Haplogroup E links together African peoples from the Nile Valley to the far coasts of West Africa, in addition to the tropical limb proportions that place the ancient Egyptians closer to blacks than anyone else.
African-Americans thus don't need anyone to tell them how they "should" think about Egypt, the Nile Valley, the Sahara or any other part of Africa, nor do they need "clearance" or "approval" from would be, reputed or alleged "nativists" to place Egypt in its proper African context.
Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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I am African American. My AA ancestors came from West Africa and many claim distant ancestry through Egypt. The Jews calaim ancestry through Egypt and Judaism and Christianity are base on the EXodus.
The Fulani (nomadic Cattle herders) came through Egypt. The Mande came through Nubians. Since, they moved to West Africa they are no longer Nile Valley peoples.
Posts: 1115 | From: GOD Bless the USA | Registered: May 2006
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The people closest to the ancient egyptians are Nubians but Who are the Nubians NO Such Thing.
In Arabic Jenub means South and there are the Nouba of the Nuba hills who are the wrestlers of ancient egyptian wall paintings. Those who live in the South of Egypt are no different than those who live in Northern Sudan same exact people.
Zaharan all the studies i have seen from u show that those people of Southern Egypt, Northern Sudan, and the Horn of Africa including Tuareg and Beja cluster closely together than anyother people i might be wrong and its because of this that most people claim that those people are not african which is all wrong but Socalled Nubians and Beja are just about the Same and if u can speak arabic u can see on youtube Beja Heritage were they speak about there lineages with the people socalled Nubians of southern egypt and what they call most of northern and eastern sudan
Posts: 410 | From: Al-Ard | Registered: Jun 2009
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Red, White, and Blue + Christian wrote: ------------------------------------------ I am African American. ------------------------------------------
No, you are a first class dunce of epic proportions.
No one on this earth takes your unscholarly postings seriously. You should take another leave of absense from this forum and the next time you come back, change your user name to:
Red, White, and Fool.
HA HA HA HEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!
Posts: 3085 | Registered: Jan 2008
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Anyone can feel free to refute the historical facts below. I know you won't because you cannot defeat historical facts.
My oh my, look at all of the non so called west Africans brought to the Americas as slaves.
quote: The Spanish enslaved their Turkish, Portuguese, Arab and Moorish captives, to use them as galley slaves. These prisoners also did slave labor at Cartagena in the West Indies.
quote: As these South Asians melded into the population, they would be identified variously as "Mullato," "Negro," and "colored" in the ethnic cauldron that was evolving in America, thus losing much of their racial distinctiveness with each passing generation, merging into the African-American community, largely unaware of their Indian roots
Notice the ruse that is the term "Mullato". As you can plainly read almost all so called mullatos were not mullatos at all.
Posts: 3085 | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote: A marvelous chapter, entitled "Private Deals," tells of the smugglers and buccaneers who, in defiance of mercantilist restrictions, pioneered the American routes, carrying East African slaves and other booty to the Bermudas and New York.
quote: "Turnbull and his group, made up of adventurers, indentured servants and slaves from Spain, Italy and Greece, landed in what is now New Smyrna Beach in 1768."
quote: In 1961(Western calendar) when a delegation of Jamaicans visited Ethiopia, they were told by the late Abuna Basillos that the people were taken from Ethiopia and brought to the Western world centuries ago.
quote: Before long, the Berber slaves from the sugar fields were put to work cutting levadas (from the Portuguese levar, to carry) to bring the water from north to south. The slaves were suspended by ropes to hew the earliest levadas from the rock faces, and many died horribly when the ropes gave way.
Within a century, the sugar industry was on the wane because of cheaper production in the Caribbean and south America, but the wine industry which took over was equally thirsty and the levada network continued to grow.
Japanese google.com/search?as_q=&hl=en&suggon=0&num=100&btnG=Google+Search&as_epq=japanese+slaves&as_oq=&as_eq=&lr=&cr=&as_ft=i&as_filetype=&as_qdr=all&as_nlo=&as_nhi=&as_occt=any&as _dt=i&a s_sitesearch=&as_rights=&safe=images
Chinese google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&lr=&suggon=0&as_qdr=all&q=+%22chinese+slaves%22+%22latin+america%22&btnG=Search
posted
The above proves that Cubans, Puerto Ricans, Dominicans, Brazillians, and other so called New World populations aren't mixed as whites want everyone to believe.
Those populations are in fact just a reflection of the various groups of people brought as slaves to the new world.
Posts: 3085 | Registered: Jan 2008
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argyle104, You have taken a comment of yours, which has nothing to do with The Beja: Closest relatives to the Ancient Egyptians, and split it into multiple postings. You do this regularly; often on topics which I have started...are you merely immature or is their a method to this madness?
Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Wally: The Beja People of Sudan, Eritrea and Egypt are an ancient people, who are linguistically, the closest kin to the ancient Egyptians. It is said that there is as much as a 70% correspondence between the Beja language and Ancient Egyptian!
BEJA GIRL
No this an Afar Girl not Beja. She is very attractive.
quote:Originally posted by AswaniAswad: The people closest to the ancient egyptians are Nubians but Who are the Nubians NO Such Thing.
In Arabic Jenub means South and there are the Nouba of the Nuba hills who are the wrestlers of ancient egyptian wall paintings. Those who live in the South of Egypt are no different than those who live in Northern Sudan same exact people.
Zaharan all the studies i have seen from u show that those people of Southern Egypt, Northern Sudan, and the Horn of Africa including Tuareg and Beja cluster closely together than anyother people i might be wrong and its because of this that most people claim that those people are not african which is all wrong but Socalled Nubians and Beja are just about the Same and if u can speak arabic u can see on youtube Beja Heritage were they speak about there lineages with the people socalled Nubians of southern egypt and what they call most of northern and eastern sudan
Is this another Egocentric pretending to be a Nubian? There is one or more of these characters who pull this act on Mathilda's Blog too. LOL
Posts: 644 | Registered: May 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Wally: The Beja People of Sudan, Eritrea and Egypt are an ancient people, who are linguistically, the closest kin to the ancient Egyptians. It is said that there is as much as a 70% correspondence between the Beja language and Ancient Egyptian!
BEJA GIRL
No this an Afar Girl not Beja. She is very attractive.
...
You are absolutely correct, this is a photo of a young Afar lady. I had this information when I received copyright permission to reproduce it... In reality, their is extremely little difference between the Afar and Beja; they are essentially the same folks...
Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Wally: The Beja People of Sudan, Eritrea and Egypt are an ancient people, who are linguistically, the closest kin to the ancient Egyptians. It is said that there is as much as a 70% correspondence between the Beja language and Ancient Egyptian!
BEJA GIRL
No this an Afar Girl not Beja. She is very attractive.
...
You are absolutely correct, this is a photo of a young Afar lady. I had this information when I received copyright permission to reproduce it... In reality, their is extremely little difference between the Afar and Beja; they are essentially the same folks...
Correction - I did some research on the copyright holder of the photo. She was in the Red Sea Hills of Sudan with her husband so most likely she is Beja or Eritrean. You know what is surprising about Beja is their high admixture of West Asian ancestry. So if beauty is a measure of genetic diversity I can see it on her face.
Posts: 644 | Registered: May 2010
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^ And where did you get the idea that the Beja have high West Asian ancestry?? Any evidence for this claim?
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ And where did you get the idea that the Beja have high West Asian ancestry?? Any evidence for this claim?
43% of Beja sampled have Y-dna that originated in SW Asia. AMERICAN JOURNAL OF PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGY (2008)
Y-Chromosome Variation Among Sudanese: Restricted Gene Flow, Concordance With Language, Geography, and History
Hisham Y. Hassan,1 Peter A. Underhill,2 Luca L. Cavalli-Sforza,2 and Muntaser E. Ibrahim1* 1 Institute of Endemic Diseases, University of Khartoum, Sudan 2 Department of Genetics, School of Medicine, Stanford University, CA
Posts: 644 | Registered: May 2010
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NonProphet copied and pasted: ------------------------------------ ------------------------------------
WTF does that supposed to mean? You probably don't even know like most hacks.
Next you'll be telling us that Japanese, Koreans, Phillopeenos, and Vietnamese have high African and European ancestry because some of their women had sex with African Americans and whites.
Posts: 3085 | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ And where did you get the idea that the Beja have high West Asian ancestry?? Any evidence for this claim?
43% of Beja sampled have Y-dna that originated in SW Asia. AMERICAN JOURNAL OF PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGY (2008)
Y-Chromosome Variation Among Sudanese: Restricted Gene Flow, Concordance With Language, Geography, and History
Hisham Y. Hassan,1 Peter A. Underhill,2 Luca L. Cavalli-Sforza,2 and Muntaser E. Ibrahim1* 1 Institute of Endemic Diseases, University of Khartoum, Sudan 2 Department of Genetics, School of Medicine, Stanford University, CA
What Y-Dna?
The Beja and Amahara posses Haplogroup J1 at similar numbers, most of it being acquired during Neolithic times... only 2% being traceable to recent or historical movement. If J1 is indeed African, that solves the question... if it indeed originated in areas to the West of the the Red Sea, the populations in questions were physically African.
So no, not a measurement of a girls face if your talking about admixture.
Simplistic "race percentage" models are dubious in Africa which has the highest genetic diversity in the world. That diversity proceeded from deeper sub-Saharan Africa, to East and N.E. Africa, then to the rest of the globe. All other populations, including Europeans and "Middle easterners" carry this diversity which was built into Africa to begin with. Africans thus don't need any "race mix" to look different. Their diversity is built-in and supplied the whole globe. Any returnees or "backflow" to Africa looked like Africans. (Brace 2005, Hanihara 1996, Holliday 2003).
Haplogroup J, characterized by the mutation 12f2.1,has been found at a frequency of approximately 18% in Ethiopians, with a relatively higher prevalence among the Amhara, where it has been found to exist at levels as high as 35% , of which about 33% is of the type J-M267, almost all of which was acquired during Neolithic times or earlier, while 2% is of the derived J-M172 type representing admixture due to recent and historic migrations.Semino O, Magri C, Benuzzi G, et al. (May 2004). "Origin, diffusion, and differentiation of Y-chromosome haplogroups E and J: inferences on the neolithization of Europe and later migratory events in the Mediterranean area". American Journal of Human Genetics 74 (5): 1023–34. doi:10.1086/386295. PMID 15069642
Posts: 341 | Registered: Feb 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Wally: The Beja People of Sudan, Eritrea and Egypt are an ancient people, who are linguistically, the closest kin to the ancient Egyptians. It is said that there is as much as a 70% correspondence between the Beja language and Ancient Egyptian!
BEJA GIRL
No this an Afar Girl not Beja. She is very attractive.
...
You are absolutely correct, this is a photo of a young Afar lady. I had this information when I received copyright permission to reproduce it... In reality, their is extremely little difference between the Afar and Beja; they are essentially the same folks...
Correction - I did some research on the copyright holder of the photo. She was in the Red Sea Hills of Sudan with her husband so most likely she is Beja or Eritrean. You know what is surprising about Beja is their high admixture of West Asian ancestry. So if beauty is a measure of genetic diversity I can see it on her face.
I don't know what she is but Afar also live in Eritrea. She is extremely attractive but that is just my opinion.
It is also my opinion that the Maasaai woman below is at least equally attractive. I wonder how much "west Asian" ancestry she has.
If anything Eurasian ancestry would have taken away the beauty of any pure Beja or Afar woman. Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ And where did you get the idea that the Beja have high West Asian ancestry?? Any evidence for this claim?
43% of Beja sampled have Y-dna that originated in SW Asia. AMERICAN JOURNAL OF PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGY (2008)
Y-Chromosome Variation Among Sudanese: Restricted Gene Flow, Concordance With Language, Geography, and History
Hisham Y. Hassan,1 Peter A. Underhill,2 Luca L. Cavalli-Sforza,2 and Muntaser E. Ibrahim1* 1 Institute of Endemic Diseases, University of Khartoum, Sudan 2 Department of Genetics, School of Medicine, Stanford University, CA
That wouldn't mean they are 43% Southwest Asian! G_d! I wish some of you folks quoting genetic studies would take some genetic courses first. Either do that or stay off Mathilda's search forum!
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Red, White, and Blue + Christian: I am African American. My AA ancestors came from West Africa and many claim distant ancestry through Egypt. The Jews calaim ancestry through Egypt and Judaism and Christianity are base on the EXodus.
The Fulani (nomadic Cattle herders) came through Egypt. The Mande came through Nubians. Since, they moved to West Africa they are no longer Nile Valley peoples.
I think you are Osirion. If not - you might as well be because your posts show the same naivety, i.e. simplicity of thinking. In fact as with Osirion sometimes I can't tell whether you are joking or not.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ And where did you get the idea that the Beja have high West Asian ancestry?? Any evidence for this claim?
43% of Beja sampled have Y-dna that originated in SW Asia. AMERICAN JOURNAL OF PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGY (2008)
Y-Chromosome Variation Among Sudanese: Restricted Gene Flow, Concordance With Language, Geography, and History
Hisham Y. Hassan,1 Peter A. Underhill,2 Luca L. Cavalli-Sforza,2 and Muntaser E. Ibrahim1* 1 Institute of Endemic Diseases, University of Khartoum, Sudan 2 Department of Genetics, School of Medicine, Stanford University, CA
That wouldn't mean they are 43% Southwest Asian! G_d! I wish some of you folks quoting genetic studies would take some genetic courses first. Either do that or stay off Mathilda's search forum!
It means exactly how I typed it. Why the strawman reply?
Neutral Autosomal DNA best determines ancestral geographic origins. Y chromo only paternal line. But you folks don't like DNA studies anyways because they uncover many delusional beliefs. Population Genetics is the subject I suggest you take your own advice and study. Well I'm sure a 3rd grader troll will be next to post 100 images to try to debunk me. LOL
Posts: 644 | Registered: May 2010
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Y-DNA haplogroup J evolved in the ancient Near East and was carried into North Africa, Europe, Central Asia, Pakistan and India. J2 lineages originated in the area known as the Fertile Crescent.
Molecular characterisation and population genetics of the DYS458 .2 allelic variant
G. Ferri, C. Robino, M. Alu, D. Luiselli , S. Tofanellid, L. Caciaglid, V. Onofri, S. Pelotti, C. Di Gaetano, F. Crobu, G. Beduschi, C. Capelli
Abstract
We recently found a number of intermediate DYS458 alleles, indicated as .2. This allelic variant is distributed in several populations, but currently no information is available regarding the molecular structure and the genealogical correlation of chromosomes with this variant. The molecular characterisation of such allele, its worldwide distribution and the correlated evolutionary history are the subject of the present paper. Molecular and genealogical data are suggestive of a single origin for the .2 variant. Phylogeographic analysis points to either a Middle East or East African origin, but additional data is necessary to clarify this point. Our results suggest that the .2 variants is a stable polymorphism and that it could be used for population studies.
Copyright 2008 Elsevier Ireland Ltd. All rights reserved.
From the full text:
"The molecular organisation of allelic variant was investigated by sequencing a number of different DYS458 .2 alleles from individuals having different geographic origin (Table 1). These variant alleles show an incomplete repeat caused either by a AA insertion or GA deletion in front the third repeat form the last. Initial SNPs analysis identified these chromosomes as derived at the M267 markers, placing them on the J1 cluster. J1 sub-lineages were additionally tested (J1a–e) and in all cases the .2 chromosomes resulted ancestral at these additional markers. The DYS458 .2 Y chromosomes were then consequently identified as part of the J1 branch (Fig. 1). The shared molecular structure and the inclusion in the same Y chromosome genealogy branch were considered as supportive to a common origin for the .2 allelic variants." "Network analysis was conducted as described in Section 2. Fig. 1 shows that two main clusters can be identified: one composed by individuals from the Caucasus (having DYS458*20.2 as modal allele) and a more heterogeneous one containing a well defined North-African clade (DYS458*18.2 modal allele) and other minor clades with European or Ethiopian origin. Only the North-African clade shows a star-like structure, signature of an associated demic expansion. Notably, within each meta population no haplotype structure can be identified except for the Caucasus, due to the rigid apportionment of these populations in groups with different patrilineal descent (data not shown). Some controversies exist about J1 coalescent times [8,9]. However, there is general agreement in recognizing a recent phase of expansion to North Africa that well fit our data: the star-like pattern in the network with Galilee and Palestinian Modal Haplotypes [15] as central nodes."
"The .2 variant shows its frequency peaks in Africa (North and East) and Caucasus. Data from the middle East is scanty and we are currently investigating various populations from this region to gather more information on the distribution in this area (data not shown). The presence in Europe is limited and the occurrences in both US and Asia (India and Malaysia) can be considered as the result of a recent introgression of African and/ or European haplotypes. Given the current set of data it is difficult to establish the ultimate place of origin of such mutation. However, the limited genetic diversity shown by either the Caucasus and North Africa suggest a combination of drift and founder effect (followed by rapid population expansion) in these areas."
So in summation, they are essentially basing their intro-reckoning at this time...
1)on frequency peak of the paragroup of DYS458 .2 alleles in East Africa, as do North Africa and the Caucasus, but [see point #2 below about North Africa and the Caucasus]...
2)on ruling out a European origin on the one hand, due to the general relative rarity therein of both the microsatellite DYS458 .2 allelic variants and the haplogroup [J1-M267] that they belong to, and on the other hand, ruling North Africa and the Caucasus out due to their relatively more rigid microsatellite-haplotype allocations into clusters within their respective paraphyletic units than the case is for the other population samples. In the North African network, the main recurring sequence is the DYS458*18.2 allele, while that of the Caucasus is reported to be DYS458*20.2. This phenomenon occurs in tandem with the relatively 'lower diversity' of both North African and the Caucasus paraphyletic units than those observed for the other samples.
3)on observations 1 & 2 leaving the so-called Middle East out as the alternative origin to East Africa, even though data available to these authors was limited, a priori extrapolation on the authors' part, likely due to the region's ("Middle East") "reputation" as a host to frequency peaks for this haplogroup.
In the course of the discussion, it was noted:
What we do know, which has already been confirmed numerous times, is that J1-M267 in North Africa represents a more recent introgression from so called Arabs, but maybe a small one because founder effect and drift could have elevated its frequency, which would also explain why its far less diverse in North Africa. - Charlie Bass
To this, it was emphasized [by present author of the blog]: Which is why the authors have ruled out origin in both the North African and the Caucasus populations, even though the lineages in question are part of a paraphyletic ensemble [but respective to both]. The difference here between North Africa and the Caucasus, is that the North African paraphyletic unit displays a star-like arrangement when phylogenetically reconstructed, while—as it appears from the authors' language—the Caucasus pharaphyletic unit displays discernable within-paragroup monophyletic relationships not necessarily from a single node, but a few discrete nodes. It appears that the paraphyletic units of the other sampled populations were relatively more phylogenetically scattered at the sub-clade level than the aforementioned two, i.e. showing less discernable within-paragroup monophyletic clustering between the chromosomes.
While in this study, the paraphyetic family of DYS458 .2 chromosomes showed frequency peaks in North African, East African and the Caucasus samples, they differ in their within-paragroup phylogenetic arrangement. The East African pattern is likened to the latter pattern just mentioned, while North African and the Caucasus paraphyletic arrangements are just as mentioned above respectively, showing relatively more discernable within-paragroup [sub-clade] monophyletic relationships. The point of inquiry now, is to see if any potential "Middle Eastern" paraphyletic family of this haplogroup compares with that of the East African family both in terms of frequency peak and loose within-paragroup monophyletic relationships between the chromosomes.
Hope you Overstand what is being said in the study.
Peace
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ And where did you get the idea that the Beja have high West Asian ancestry?? Any evidence for this claim?
43% of Beja sampled have Y-dna that originated in SW Asia. AMERICAN JOURNAL OF PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGY (2008)
Y-Chromosome Variation Among Sudanese: Restricted Gene Flow, Concordance With Language, Geography, and History
Hisham Y. Hassan,1 Peter A. Underhill,2 Luca L. Cavalli-Sforza,2 and Muntaser E. Ibrahim1* 1 Institute of Endemic Diseases, University of Khartoum, Sudan 2 Department of Genetics, School of Medicine, Stanford University, CA
That wouldn't mean they are 43% Southwest Asian! G_d! I wish some of you folks quoting genetic studies would take some genetic courses first. Either do that or stay off Mathilda's search forum!
It means exactly how I typed it. Why the strawman reply?
Neutral Autosomal DNA best determines ancestral geographic origins. Y chromo only paternal line. But you folks don't like DNA studies anyways because they uncover many delusional beliefs. Population Genetics is the subject I suggest you take your own advice and study. Well I'm sure a 3rd grader troll will be next to post 100 images to try to debunk me. LOL
quote:Originally posted by NonProphet: Y-DNA haplogroup J evolved in the ancient Near East and was carried into North Africa, Europe, Central Asia, Pakistan and India. J2 lineages originated in the area known as the Fertile Crescent.
According to the most recent studies, most of the "Eurasian" tagged haplogroups developed either in Africa or originated among populations who spanned between both "Southwest Asia" and Africa.
Also, any back-migrating populations would have had looked like Africans. Therefore this is nothing racial.
The returnees whould have had entered Africa at a time we see the first humans leaving Southwest Asia.
Posts: 341 | Registered: Feb 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ And where did you get the idea that the Beja have high West Asian ancestry?? Any evidence for this claim?
43% of Beja sampled have Y-dna that originated in SW Asia. AMERICAN JOURNAL OF PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGY (2008)
Y-Chromosome Variation Among Sudanese: Restricted Gene Flow, Concordance With Language, Geography, and History
Hisham Y. Hassan,1 Peter A. Underhill,2 Luca L. Cavalli-Sforza,2 and Muntaser E. Ibrahim1* 1 Institute of Endemic Diseases, University of Khartoum, Sudan 2 Department of Genetics, School of Medicine, Stanford University, CA
That wouldn't mean they are 43% Southwest Asian! G_d! I wish some of you folks quoting genetic studies would take some genetic courses first. Either do that or stay off Mathilda's search forum!
It means exactly how I typed it. Why the strawman reply?
Neutral Autosomal DNA best determines ancestral geographic origins. Y chromo only paternal line. But you folks don't like DNA studies anyways because they uncover many delusional beliefs. Population Genetics is the subject I suggest you take your own advice and study. Well I'm sure a 3rd grader troll will be next to post 100 images to try to debunk me. LOL
There are plenty of people on this and other forums who are fairly adept with interpreting dna evidence. Zarahan and Doctoris being among them. Like I said, taking a few courses in genetics and basic population biology would do a world of good for those trying to make points from others' studies. I am admit some might need it more than other.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ And where did you get the idea that the Beja have high West Asian ancestry?? Any evidence for this claim?
43% of Beja sampled have Y-dna that originated in SW Asia. AMERICAN JOURNAL OF PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGY (2008)
Y-Chromosome Variation Among Sudanese: Restricted Gene Flow, Concordance With Language, Geography, and History
Hisham Y. Hassan,1 Peter A. Underhill,2 Luca L. Cavalli-Sforza,2 and Muntaser E. Ibrahim1* 1 Institute of Endemic Diseases, University of Khartoum, Sudan 2 Department of Genetics, School of Medicine, Stanford University, CA
That wouldn't mean they are 43% Southwest Asian! G_d! I wish some of you folks quoting genetic studies would take some genetic courses first. Either do that or stay off Mathilda's search forum!
Your 100% correct, not only is J1-M267, not to mention the J Haplogroup itself, likely of East African/southern Yemeni/Socotra origin, i.e. Saharo-Tropical African variants. The non-African component into the Beja population is no more then 5% according to uni-parental ancestry. This figure is most likely true for most East Africans including the Amhara and Nubian population. Less then 2% of the paternal ancestry of the Amhara, for example, is due to recent and historic admixture.
Uni-parental ancestry is used to donate specific ancestral ancestry, because they change very slowly and can be traced in a linear fashion.. For example...
Tribe A is 45% European, and 55% African and Tribe B is 8% European and 92% African.
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posted
^ LOL The fool produced a study that said Beja like Amhara carry J1 lineages at around 40% which is still less than 50% of the population meaning that the majority lineages around 60% are still African! How does this count as "high percentage"?? On the flip-side, what about the high admixture of African lineages among Southwest Asians?? The hypocrisy is glaring.
Falseprophet also said: "You know what is surprising about Beja is their high admixture of West Asian ancestry. So if beauty is a measure of genetic diversity I can see it on her face."
In other words, the guy is like 'toothless lion'-- he disdains anything he conceives as 'pure African' and favors admixture. In his eyes, for that Beja girl to look attractive she must be mixed!
I don't know who is worse, the white-supremacists or the mixo-supremacists. Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
The mixos, of course, because as one of my idols once said (maybe it was Dr. Van Sertima - can't remember now "a half truth is worse than a lie".
-------------------- D. Reynolds-Marniche Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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^ Nah, I think the mixos only seem worse because their trolling is more common here. I will say that both groups suffer from hatred. The white supremacists suffer from hatred of others while the mixo-supremacists suffer from hatred of themselves. i.e. 1Arm(the lion) and Jaimie. Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ LOL The fool produced a study that said Beja like Amhara carry J1 lineages at around 40% which is still less than 50% of the population meaning that the majority lineages around 60% are still African! How does this count as "high percentage"?? On the flip-side, what about the high admixture of African lineages among Southwest Asians?? The hypocrisy is glaring.
Falseprophet also said: "You know what is surprising about Beja is their high admixture of West Asian ancestry. So if beauty is a measure of genetic diversity I can see it on her face."
In other words, the guy is like 'toothless lion'-- he disdains anything he conceives as 'pure African' and favors admixture. In his eyes, for that Beja girl to look attractive she must be mixed!
I don't know who is worse, the white-supremacists or the mixo-supremacists.
True, but the fact that the J found among East Africans is likely of indigenous East African-Socotra/Hadhramaut... makes it even more annoying.
Both J* and J1, in particular J1-M267, are found in abundant numbers in the vincinity of East Africa, Hadhramaut, and Socotra. J2 is also found but in much decreased numbers.
Haplogroup J is found at it's highest freguency in that particular East African/Southern Yemeni region, reaching numbers as high as 80%.
In regard to other regions, East African J is mush more diversified to those found in the general "Middle East".
Undifferentiated paragroup J* is only found on the East African island of Socotra.
"Haplogroup J* includes all of J except for J1 and J2. J* is rarely found outside of the island of Socotra, where it is quite frequent at 71.4%."
Also, East African J dosen't match those found else where, therefore most likely not due to any gene-flow from any "Near Eastern" areas.
And both the Caucasus and North Africa have been eliminated in regard to the origin of J1-M267
J (Y-DNA) originated in East Africa.
J1 moved into Yemen, While J2 spread from Egypt into the Levant.
J1 were Nomads similar to the Beja, While J2 were farmers similar to more Nile Valley affiliated peoples.
Areas like East African Socotra still have the highest % of J*
The IJK lineages are also likely of African origin.
And being that East Africans are the local descendants of the OOA migrants, them possessing lineages, along side those lineages commonly shared among all Africans (West-Central Africans, Southern Africans etc.) due to common ancestral origins, which are "ancestral" to those found in non-Africans, i.e. M1, N, and even IJK, shouldn't be a surprise in that regard.
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quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: The mixos, of course, because as one of my idols once said (maybe it was Dr. Van Sertima - can't remember now "a half truth is worse than a lie".
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ LOL The fool produced a study that said Beja like Amhara carry J1 lineages at around 40% which is still less than 50% of the population meaning that the majority lineages around 60% are still African!
I don't know who is worse, the white-supremacists or the mixo-supremacists.
Sorry to burst your delusions but prehistoric North Africa has been a mixed population for at least 30Ky.
Asian HGs F, J1, J2, K2, K*, P, R1 and R1b are also in the same study. The Beja clustered closest to the Amhara. Amhara share over 60% specific AIM nuclear DNA with Eurasians and 24% with some of your probable ancestors-the Bantus. That is if you are a real Afrocentric and not one of the many Stormfront Afro imposters. Since you admit the Beja are close cousins to the Amhara they may have similar admixture results although more southern derived DNA wouldn't be surprising given the Beja's role in the trans-Saharan slave trade estimated at almost 25M.
You guys still cite obsolete cranial-facial and limb ratio studies that show adaptive phenotypic traits that only show correlation. Adaptive traits are not reliable evidence for ancestry. Populations can have different genes expressed for the SAME adaptive traits. This is why DNA has superceded all this junk. Genotype determines phenotype not Vice Versa. Melanesians and Aborigines may look similar to some Africans but they are more closely related to Indonesians and are the most distant genetically from Africans.
Also I never did get a scientific definition of 'Black people' from any of you 'scholars'. You guys don't like Caucasoid or Negroid(I don't use the terms) descriptors but yet you hypocrites interchangeably use 'Black' and 'African' as racially synonymous terms. How do you define a racial category by skin color?
How about posting some peer reviewed or reliable sources for a change instead of the manipulated data, lies and photo shopped images from Wysinger?
Posts: 644 | Registered: May 2010
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Finally an intelligent challenger? Last good challenege came from Mike Jr. He got smacked down but made some valuable points.
Good start Non-prophet.
But me, being a lyman alerady see some flaws.
1. F, R1 and R1 NOT Eurasian . . .if you have been keeping up. Not sure about the rest. 2. 25kya (25M) ALL peoples were black or there abouts especially Beja's and other Sahara groups. 3. If you read the post, on the inception of AE. ALl types of Africans moved from the Sahara to the Nile Valley. 3. AE had absolutely nothing to do with robust , thicjk cold adapted, hairy, Europeans. There is no cultural, linguistic or archeological affinity between Europe and AE. However there is with the rest of Africa. 4. Black by definition. Check out current Beja and other similar peoples. They are "blacker" than me.
I do agree that we sometimes interchangeble use the term Black and African implying race.
But the fact is these people are literally black and African. nuff said?
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
If some of you here cannot add to the topic here or criticize it, who would rather discuss such esoteric subjects like DNA, then please start another topic and leave this one.
Topic: The Beja People of Sudan, Eritrea and Egypt are an ancient people, who are linguistically, one of the closest kin to the ancient Egyptians. It is said that there is as much as a 70% correspondence between the Beja language and Ancient Egyptian!
BEJA GIRL
The presence of the Beja people can be traced as far back as pre-dynasty times; their proud and uniquely huge crown of fuzzy hair (tiffa) was first recorded in Ancient Egyptian rock paintings.
BEJA YOUTH SPORTING THE TIFFA
Egyptologist, Emile Brugsch traced the clan of the Khawr kiji Beja through the matriarchal Female line to the 20th Dynasty.
The Khawr kiji Beja themselves claim their Ancestress Maternally was the Mother of an even earlier Dynasty.
In Ancient Egypt the Beja were known as the people of Ta-Seti - "People of the Land of the Bow" - and were renowned in Ancient Egypt for their skill with this weapon... --- The Beja was a formidable force in multi-ethnic Ancient Egypt as the "Prophecy of Neferti", written for King SnoFru of the 4th Dynasty suggests:
quote:Then a King will come from the South, Amen the Justified by name. Son of a Ta-seti Woman, a child of Upper Egypt.. He will take the White Crown and He will wear the Red Crown, He will join the two Mighty Ones.. Rejoice O’ People of his time.. The Son of woman, will make his name for all Eternity !
Asiatic invaders will fall to his Sword.. Libyans will fall to his Flame.. Rebels to his wrath , Traitors to his Might ! As the serpent on his brow, subdue the rebels for him..
One will build the Walls -of- the- Ruler to Bar Asiatics from entering Egypt..
BEJA MAN ...
Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Finally an intelligent challenger? Last good challenege came from Mike Jr. He got smacked down but made some valuable points.
Good start Non-prophet.
But me, being a lyman alerady see some flaws.
1. F, R1 and R1 NOT Eurasian . . .if you have been keeping up. Not sure about the rest. 2. 25kya (25M) ALL peoples were black or there abouts especially Beja's and other Sahara groups. 3. If you read the post, on the inception of AE. ALl types of Africans moved from the Sahara to the Nile Valley. 3. AE had absolutely nothing to do with robust , thicjk cold adapted, hairy, Europeans. There is no cultural, linguistic or archeological affinity between Europe and AE. However there is with the rest of Africa. 4. Black by definition. Check out current Beja and other similar peoples. They are "blacker" than me.
I do agree that we sometimes interchangeble use the term Black and African implying race.
But the fact is these people are literally black and African. nuff said?
n human genetics, Haplogroup R1 is a Y-chromosome DNA haplogroup, a subgroup of haplogroup R, associated with the M173 mutation. It is dominated in practice by two very common Eurasian clades, R1a and R1b, which together are found all over Eurasia except in Southeast Asia and East Asia. However other types of R1, less well-known and un-defined so far by any identified SNP, and therefore referred to collectively simply as R1* or R-M173*, have been reported. R1 is very common throughout all of Eurasia except East Asia and Southeast Asia. Its distribution is believed to be associated with the re-settlement of Eurasia following the last glacial maximum. Its main subgroups are R1a (M420) and R1b (M343). One subclade of haplogroup R1b (especially R1b1b2, R-M269), is the most common haplogroup in Western Europe and Bashkortostan[4], while another R1a (especially R1a1a, R-M17 or R-M98) is the most common haplogroup in Eastern Europe as well as some parts of Central Asia, South Asia, Western China, and South Siberia.
what u sayin xyyman?
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G_d! I wish some of you folks quoting genetic studies would take some genetic courses first. Either do that or stay off Mathilda's search forum!
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