posted
But it doesn’t matter, because this is what you believe in:
Even though the difference was:
And even though these people had to ask this high ranking black:
for:
quote:…. permission to enter Egypt. Tribespeople are dressed in coloured striped costumes. Mural from the tomb at Beni-Hassan 19th BCE, Middle Kingdom. Detail of 08-01-03/17.
Your kin had to ask permission to enter Egypt? Wow.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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posted
Kalonji, I take it that you believe that some Egyptians had straight in the periods from the Pre-Dynastic to the New Kingdom but this boy this boy would not represent one of the phenotypes that would be typical of an ancient Egyptian. Am I correct that this is your point of view?
posted
Redundant question. 1) Herodotus saw them and wrote that they had woolly hair. 2) Aristotle(Physiognomica) ditto. 3) The combs the AEs used also adds more confirming evidence. 4)Clearly, the way they portrayed themselves the hair of the AEs was either covered by wigs, shaved off completely as African men traditionally have done or kinky/frizzy as you see in East Africa.
But nothing like the Europeans, the East Asians, the South Asians or the Native Americans. The closest outside of Africa would be the Melanesians: New Guineans, Fijians, Solomon Islanders, etc.
Posts: 5492 | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness: Kalonji, I take it that you believe that some Egyptians had straight in the periods from the Pre-Dynastic to the New Kingdom but this boy this boy would not represent one of the phenotypes that would be typical of an ancient Egyptian. Am I correct that this is your point of view?
Your questions dance around the fact that the ancient Egyptians were predominantly African. This is all that matters. Is it possible that there were people that looked like the little boy in early Egypt, sure.
Now what?
Are you going to start a new thread with this ''new revelation'' like you have done with King in this thread, and earlier with alTakruri??
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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Mummification actices and dyeing of hair Hair studies of mummies note that color is often influenced by environmental factors at burial sites. Brothwell and Spearman (ref in Fletcher's works-1963) point out that reddish-brown ancient color hair is usually the result of partial oxidation of the melanin pigment. Other causes of hair color "blonding" involve bleaching, caused by the alkaline in the mummification process. Color also varies due to the Egyptian practice of dyeing hair with henna. Other samples show individuals lightening the hair using vegetable colorants. Thus variations in hair color among mummies do not necessarily suggest the presence of blond or red-haired Europeans or Near Easterners flitting about Egypt before being mummified, but the influence of environmental factors. --------
Egyptian practice of putting locks of hair in mummy wrappings.
Racial analysis is also made problematic by the Egyptian practice of burying hair, in many "votive or funerary deposits buried separately from the body, a practice found from Predynastic to Roman times despite its frequent omission from excavation reports." (Fletcher 2002) In examining hair samples Fletcher (2004) notes that care is needed to determine what is natural scalp hair, versus hair from a wig, versus hair extensions to natural locks. Tracking the exact source of hair is also critical since the Egyptians were known to have placed locks of hair from different sources among mummy wrappings. (The Search for Nefertiti, By Joann Fletcher, HarperCollins, 2004, p. 93-94, 96; Joann Fletcher, ANCIENT EGYPTIAN HAIR AND WIGS, THE OSTRACON THE JOURNAL OF THE EGYPTIAN STUDY SOCIETY, VOLUME 13, NUMBER 2; SUMMER 2002) -------------------------------------------------------------
Hair for wigs often obtained through trade not mass waves of "Caucasoid" migrants.
The use of wigs made of varying hair also complicates attempts at 'racial' analysis. Fletcher (2002) shows that many Egyptian wigs have been found with what is defined as straighter 'cynotrichous' hair. This however is hardly a marker of massive European or Near Eastern presence or admixture. Fletcher notes that the Egyptians often eschewed their own personal hair, shaving carefully and using wigs widely. The hair for these wigs was often obtained through trade. Indeed, "hair itself being a valuable commodity ranked alongside gold and incense in account lists from the town of Kahun." Egyptian trading links with other regions is well known, and a prized commodity like straighter 'cynotrichous' hair could have been easily obtained via the Sahara, Levant, the Maghreb, Mediterranean contacts, or even the hair of Asiatic war captives or casulaties from Egypt's numerous conflicts. -------------------------------------------------------------
Red-headed Ramses- routine for genetic variability in Africa not "whiteness"
Rameses came along comparatively late in Egyptian history, when outsiders toEgypt like the Hyskos were increasing in the region. Detailed microscopic analysis during the 1980s (Balout 1985) identified some of the hair of Egyptian Pharoah Rameses II as being a yellowish-red. Such a finding should not be surprising given the wide range of physical variability in Africa, the most genetically diverse region on earth, out of which flowed other population groups. Indeed, blondism and various other hair shades are not unknown in East Africa or Nubia, particularly in children, nor are such hair color variants uncommon in dark-haired or dark skinned populations like the Australians. (Hrdy 1978) Given the range of genetic variability in Africa, a red-haired Rameses is hardly unusual. Rameses' reign, in the 19th Dynasty, came over 1,500 years after the Egyptian state had been established, and after the Hyskos interlude. Such latecomers to Egypt, like the Hyskos, Assyrians, Greeks, Romans, Arabs etc would add their own genetic strands to the nation's mix. Whatever the blend of genes that occurred with Rameses, his hair offers little supposed "proof" of a "white" or "Nordic" Egypt. If anything, X-rays of several royal mummies by mainstream scientists show that the Egyptians pharoahs and other royals had several uncomfortable 'Negroid' leanings. (http://www.geocities.com/nilevalleypeoples/xraymummies1.htm) -------------------------------------------------------------
Red hair can be readily produced by dark-skinned populations- just check out Australia and pheomelanin
The finding of Rameses "red" hair also deserves further scrutiny. The analysis found evidence of dyeing to make the hair yellowish-red, but some elements were untouched by the dye. These elements of yellowish-red hair in Balout's study, were established on the basis of the presence of pheomelanin, a red-brown polymeric pigment in the skin and hair of humans. However, pheomelanin can also be found in persons with dark brown or even black hair as well, which gives it a reddish hue. Most natural melanins contain sulfur, which is typically associated with pheomelanin. In scientific tests of melanin, black hair contained as much as 5% sulfur, 3% lower than the 8.8% found in Irish red hair, but exceeding the 2.3% found in Scandinavian blond hair. (Jolles, et al. 1996) Thus the yellowish-red hair discovered on Rameses is well within the range of human variation for dark haired people, whatever the exact gene combination that led to the condition.
As noted above, such variation began with ancient African populations. Most red hair is found in northern and western Europe, especially in the British Isles, and even then it appears in minor frequencies in Europe- some 4% of the population. It is unlikely such populations had any major contact or influence in the ancient Nile Valley. The analysis on Rameses also did not show classic "European" red hair but hair of a light red to yellowish tinge. Black haired or dark-skinned populations are quite capable of producing such yellowish-red color variants on their own, as can be seen in today's east and northeast Africa (see child's photo above). Nor is such color variation unusual to Africa. Native dark-skinned populations in Australia, routinely produce people witn blond or reddish hair. .
The analysis also found Rameses' hair to be cymotrich or wavy, again a characteristic quite within the range of overall African or Nile valley physical and genetic diversity. A "pure" Nordic type of straight hair was thus not established for Rameses. Hence the notion of white Europeans or red-headed Caucasoids from other areas flowing into ancient Egypt to add hair variation is dubious. Inflows occurred during the Greek and Roman eras but reddish or brown hair is within the range of African variation. Genetic studies (Tishkoff 2009, 2000) show Africans have the highest diversity in the world. Skeletal/cranial studies confirm the pattern. Relethford (2001) shows that ".. methods for estimating regional diversity show sub-Saharan Africa to have the highest levels of phenotypic variation, consistent with many genetic studies." (Relethford, John "Global Analysis of Regional Differences in Craniometric Diversity and Population Substructure". Human Biology - Volume 73, Number 5, October 2001, pp. 629-636) Hanihara 2003 notes that [significant] "..intraregional diversity are present in Subsaharan Africans.." While ancient Egypt had gene flow in various eras, hair variations easily fall under this pattern of built-in, indigenous diversity, as well as the above noted cultural practice of using wigs with hair from different places obtained through trade.
----------------------- Notes: Formation and Structure of Human Hair: Biology and Structure, By Pierre Jollès, Helmut Zahn, H. Höcker, Birkhäuser, 1996, pp. 200-225
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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posted
zarahan and lamin Could this boy this boy would represent one of the phenotypes that would be typical of ancient Egyptian or would you say due to the fact that his hair is very straight he could not?
posted
Rameses did NOT have red-hair. See Study posted by Dana and others. I beleive it was a German study. The study concluded his hair was blackish brown like the majority of Africans.
Many Saharans(AEians) probably looked like this and had hair like him.
and
Looking at video, by ALtk on Waadabe, of Saharans (not SSA), it is clear they have curly straightish hair. Along with Nile Valley Africans. It seems like many "bush" Africans have kinky hair. Kinky hair is relegated to the bush regions.
As I said many times. Contrary to many on this board AMH probably had straightish hair. He left Africa with that type of hair. Almost all populatins outside of Africa have straightish or straight hair. When they entered the jungles in the tropical regions there was convergent evolution. eg. Andamans, Melanese etc.
AMH left Africa probably like most Saharans
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
xyyman zarahan and lamin Could this boy this boy would represent one of the phenotypes that would be typical of ancient Egyptian or would you say due to the fact that his hair is very straight he could not?
quote:Originally posted by MelaninKing: LOL, as I suspected, our resident clown, Lioness is really Hammer, in yet another female persona.
Only Hammer is dense enough to start threads asking the stupidest leading questions without taking a position or contributing a shred of information.
Hammer, this is the third time you've presented yourself as a female on this site. Why not just come all the way out?
you never post questions as thread topics because you think you know everything. That is a trait of a fool
KING had originally posted this boy as one example of the "purest descendants of the pharaohs". I asked a simple yes or no question about this boy. You shouldn't be scared to address it. I don't have a new thread planned based on this one.
If you don't think this boy could represent an AE phenotype just be a man for once in your life and say no.
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by MelaninKing: LOL, as I suspected, our resident clown, Lioness is really Hammer, in yet another female persona.
Only Hammer is dense enough to start threads asking the stupidest leading questions without taking a position or contributing a shred of information.
Hammer, this is the third time you've presented yourself as a female on this site. Why not just come all the way out?
lol...
ANCIENT EGYPTIANS AND HAIR ----------
Mummification actices and dyeing of hair Hair studies of mummies note that color is often influenced by environmental factors at burial sites. Brothwell and Spearman (ref in Fletcher's works-1963) point out that reddish-brown ancient color hair is usually the result of partial oxidation of the melanin pigment. Other causes of hair color "blonding" involve bleaching, caused by the alkaline in the mummification process. Color also varies due to the Egyptian practice of dyeing hair with henna. Other samples show individuals lightening the hair using vegetable colorants. Thus variations in hair color among mummies do not necessarily suggest the presence of blond or red-haired Europeans or Near Easterners flitting about Egypt before being mummified, but the influence of environmental factors. --------
Egyptian practice of putting locks of hair in mummy wrappings.
Racial analysis is also made problematic by the Egyptian practice of burying hair, in many "votive or funerary deposits buried separately from the body, a practice found from Predynastic to Roman times despite its frequent omission from excavation reports." (Fletcher 2002) In examining hair samples Fletcher (2004) notes that care is needed to determine what is natural scalp hair, versus hair from a wig, versus hair extensions to natural locks. Tracking the exact source of hair is also critical since the Egyptians were known to have placed locks of hair from different sources among mummy wrappings. (The Search for Nefertiti, By Joann Fletcher, HarperCollins, 2004, p. 93-94, 96; Joann Fletcher, ANCIENT EGYPTIAN HAIR AND WIGS, THE OSTRACON THE JOURNAL OF THE EGYPTIAN STUDY SOCIETY, VOLUME 13, NUMBER 2; SUMMER 2002) -------------------------------------------------------------
Hair for wigs often obtained through trade not mass waves of "Caucasoid" migrants.
The use of wigs made of varying hair also complicates attempts at 'racial' analysis. Fletcher (2002) shows that many Egyptian wigs have been found with what is defined as straighter 'cynotrichous' hair. This however is hardly a marker of massive European or Near Eastern presence or admixture. Fletcher notes that the Egyptians often eschewed their own personal hair, shaving carefully and using wigs widely. The hair for these wigs was often obtained through trade. Indeed, "hair itself being a valuable commodity ranked alongside gold and incense in account lists from the town of Kahun." Egyptian trading links with other regions is well known, and a prized commodity like straighter 'cynotrichous' hair could have been easily obtained via the Sahara, Levant, the Maghreb, Mediterranean contacts, or even the hair of Asiatic war captives or casulaties from Egypt's numerous conflicts. -------------------------------------------------------------
Red-headed Ramses- routine for genetic variability in Africa not "whiteness"
Rameses came along comparatively late in Egyptian history, when outsiders toEgypt like the Hyskos were increasing in the region. Detailed microscopic analysis during the 1980s (Balout 1985) identified some of the hair of Egyptian Pharoah Rameses II as being a yellowish-red. Such a finding should not be surprising given the wide range of physical variability in Africa, the most genetically diverse region on earth, out of which flowed other population groups. Indeed, blondism and various other hair shades are not unknown in East Africa or Nubia, particularly in children, nor are such hair color variants uncommon in dark-haired or dark skinned populations like the Australians. (Hrdy 1978) Given the range of genetic variability in Africa, a red-haired Rameses is hardly unusual. Rameses' reign, in the 19th Dynasty, came over 1,500 years after the Egyptian state had been established, and after the Hyskos interlude. Such latecomers to Egypt, like the Hyskos, Assyrians, Greeks, Romans, Arabs etc would add their own genetic strands to the nation's mix. Whatever the blend of genes that occurred with Rameses, his hair offers little supposed "proof" of a "white" or "Nordic" Egypt. If anything, X-rays of several royal mummies by mainstream scientists show that the Egyptians pharoahs and other royals had several uncomfortable 'Negroid' leanings. (http://www.geocities.com/nilevalleypeoples/xraymummies1.htm) -------------------------------------------------------------
Red hair can be readily produced by dark-skinned populations- just check out Australia and pheomelanin
The finding of Rameses "red" hair also deserves further scrutiny. The analysis found evidence of dyeing to make the hair yellowish-red, but some elements were untouched by the dye. These elements of yellowish-red hair in Balout's study, were established on the basis of the presence of pheomelanin, a red-brown polymeric pigment in the skin and hair of humans. However, pheomelanin can also be found in persons with dark brown or even black hair as well, which gives it a reddish hue. Most natural melanins contain sulfur, which is typically associated with pheomelanin. In scientific tests of melanin, black hair contained as much as 5% sulfur, 3% lower than the 8.8% found in Irish red hair, but exceeding the 2.3% found in Scandinavian blond hair. (Jolles, et al. 1996) Thus the yellowish-red hair discovered on Rameses is well within the range of human variation for dark haired people, whatever the exact gene combination that led to the condition.
As noted above, such variation began with ancient African populations. Most red hair is found in northern and western Europe, especially in the British Isles, and even then it appears in minor frequencies in Europe- some 4% of the population. It is unlikely such populations had any major contact or influence in the ancient Nile Valley. The analysis on Rameses also did not show classic "European" red hair but hair of a light red to yellowish tinge. Black haired or dark-skinned populations are quite capable of producing such yellowish-red color variants on their own, as can be seen in today's east and northeast Africa (see child's photo above). Nor is such color variation unusual to Africa. Native dark-skinned populations in Australia, routinely produce people witn blond or reddish hair. .
The analysis also found Rameses' hair to be cymotrich or wavy, again a characteristic quite within the range of overall African or Nile valley physical and genetic diversity. A "pure" Nordic type of straight hair was thus not established for Rameses. Hence the notion of white Europeans or red-headed Caucasoids from other areas flowing into ancient Egypt to add hair variation is dubious. Inflows occurred during the Greek and Roman eras but reddish or brown hair is within the range of African variation. Genetic studies (Tishkoff 2009, 2000) show Africans have the highest diversity in the world. Skeletal/cranial studies confirm the pattern. Relethford (2001) shows that ".. methods for estimating regional diversity show sub-Saharan Africa to have the highest levels of phenotypic variation, consistent with many genetic studies." (Relethford, John "Global Analysis of Regional Differences in Craniometric Diversity and Population Substructure". Human Biology - Volume 73, Number 5, October 2001, pp. 629-636) Hanihara 2003 notes that [significant] "..intraregional diversity are present in Subsaharan Africans.." While ancient Egypt had gene flow in various eras, hair variations easily fall under this pattern of built-in, indigenous diversity, as well as the above noted cultural practice of using wigs with hair from different places obtained through trade.
----------------------- Notes: Formation and Structure of Human Hair: Biology and Structure, By Pierre Jollès, Helmut Zahn, H. Höcker, Birkhäuser, 1996, pp. 200-225
Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness: xyyman zarahan and lamin Could this boy this boy would represent one of the phenotypes that would be typical of ancient Egyptian or would you say due to the fact that his hair is very straight he could not?
zarahan only has the ability to show of his premade graphic spams, lol. LOL how scared people are to answer a simple yes or no question. Where are the real men around here?
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
^ AEians were VERY dark. See the thousands of murals/paintings IN the tombs and other buildings. Most had the features including hair like the guys below.
Your point?
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Rameses did NOT have red-hair. See Study posted by Dana and others. I beleive it was a German study. The study concluded his hair was blackish brown like the majority of Africans.
Many Saharans(AEians) probably looked like this and had hair like him.
and
Looking at video, by ALtk on Waadabe, of Saharans (not SSA), it is clear they have curly straightish hair. Along with Nile Valley Africans. It seems like many "bush" Africans have kinky hair. Kinky hair is relegated to the bush regions.
As I said many times. Contrary to many on this board AMH probably had straightish hair. He left Africa with that type of hair. Almost all populatins outside of Africa have straightish or straight hair. When they entered the jungles in the tropical regions there was convergent evolution. eg. Andamans, Melanese etc.
AMH left Africa probably like most Saharans
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: ^ AEians were VERY dark. See the thousands of murals/paintings IN the tombs and other buildings. Most had the features including hair like the guys below.
I second you on the AEgyptians being predominantly dark skinned as a population. Although, i must disagree with your observation on the hair texture of the Woodabe for the most part being as what you described as "curly straight". Even from the video concerning the Woodabe, their hair texture coincides with the terms used to describe the hair of most black Africans; kinky, wooly etc. I don't see how their hair texture can be described as "curly straight".
May it be that you consider and apply your definition of "curly straight" to describe their hair texture due to their hair practices and or methods?
How are you defining "curly straight" here?
Some images of Waadabe's:
Would you define their hair texture as "curly straight" according to your definition?
Could you please provide some image examples of "curly straight" hair texture existing in African and Non African populations so i can get a better understanding?
Posts: 535 | From: From the Darkest of the Abyss | Registered: Apr 2010
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Don't take this the wrong way, but I have issues with this Pic:
There is absolutely no reason to tattoo children.
It may be a part of there culture but really I really dislike seeing things like this.
It seems to me that more and more things are happening in this world to take away childhood from the Youth. I hope people learn that part of being Human is having a childhood free of things that adults do to eachother.
Peace
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
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Did any ANCIENT EGYPTIANS in the periods from the Pre-Dynastic to the New Kingdom have straight hair like the boy below?
quote:Originally posted by KING: More Pics of Upper Egyptians:
I don't know
Yes, and this is another pointless question. Regardless of your obtuseness, ad-hocs and red herrings, the predominant hair type of the AEgyptians was described and noted as wooly or kinky which was the term used to describe the predominant hair type of continental Africans.
Painted relief depicting unshaven carpenter:
Middle Kingdom 11th dynasty sculpture: Posts: 535 | From: From the Darkest of the Abyss | Registered: Apr 2010
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posted
Siptah I'm uncertain if if the boy I posted could have been an ancient Egyptian prior to the late period. While many had kinky hair as you mention this boy KING posted has very straight flat laying hair. If such people were one of the types of ancient Egyptians prior to the late period their hair was either the result of admixture from Levantine or other Asian people North of Egypt or this type of very straight flat laying hair evolved within Africa. This is why I think the issue of an Asian component in AE's early periods is a possibility. Other's would say no AE's had that type of hair until later. Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Mike111: lioness - Just one question.
Egyptians during the dynastic period, wore wigs. What method are you using to determine hair type?
I am uncertain of all the hair types in AE. Most common folk did not wear wigs. Ironically lice prefer shorter clean hair more then longer dirtier hair.
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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