posted
Sickle cell anemia is named after the geographical region in which it is found. The three major types of sickle cell anemia are: Arab-India, Benin, and Senegal sickle cell anemia.
The Niger-Congo speakers originated in the Fertile African Crescent and migrated into Nubia. The Niger-Congo speakers probably belonged to the Tehenu group, specifically the C-Group.
5kya the C-Group people began to migrate out of the Fertile African Crescent into Arabia and Nubia which were sparsely populated. . At Tihama and other sites in Arabia we find pottery related to the C-Group people of Nubia (Keall, 2000;2008; Fattovish, 2008; Giumlia-Mair, 2002)The archaeological evidence indicates that C-Group people expanded from Nubia to Mesopotamia and the Indus Valley.
It appears that whereas the Egyptians preferred the cultivation of wheat, many ancient C-Group people were agro-pastoral people who cultivated Millet/Sorghum and raised cattle. The C-Group people are the Kushites of ancient history. They founded Wawat, Kerma,Meroitic, Sumerian, Elamite and Indus Valley civilizations.
The Tihama civilization probably originated in Nubia. It is characterized by the cheesecake or pillbox burial monuments which extend from Dhofar in Nubia, the Gara mountains to Adulis on the Gulf of Zula, to Hadramaut, Qataban, Ausan, Adenm, Asir, the Main area and Tihama.
These Niger-Congo people belonging to the C-Group probably spread sickle cell anemia into Arabia and beyond. This is supported by the spread of sickle cell anemia from Africa to India.
Indian tribal groups and Africans share Arab-India, Benin, and Senegal sickle cell anemia. The Senegal and Indian sickle cell share haplotypes. The Arab-Indian and Senegal haplotypes share the C!T mutation at position -158 .
Few West Africans came to Arabia as slaves. As a result the high frequency of Benin sickle cell in Oman and other parts of Arabia must be the result of this expansion of C-Group people into Arabia 4kya.
These Niger-Congo speakers probably remained a significant population in Arabia until the expansion of the People of the Sea, Persians, Islam, Syrians (Gutians) and later Turks into Arabia. As these populations settled Arabia, those Arabians who spoke non-Arabic dialects probably migrated back into Africa and joined thir fellow ethnic groups in West Africa, who had migrated into West Africa after the fall of Egypt and the Meroitic Empire. This would explain the presence of Fulani in the Fezzan, as well as Nigeria and the Senegambian region; and the former presence of Mande (Garamante/Garamande) in the Fezzan and Mauretania, who now dominate Senegambia and Niger Valley in addition to other parts of West Africa.
The evidence of sickle cell anemia in Arabia support the Arabia origin of some West Africans.
Sickle cell anemia is named after the geographical region in which it is found. The three major types of sickle cell anemia are: Arab-India, Benin, and Senegal sickle cell anemia.
The Niger-Congo speakers originated in the Fertile African Crescent and migrated into Nubia. The Niger-Congo speakers probably belonged to the Tehenu group, specifically the C-Group.
5kya the C-Group people began to migrate out of the Fertile African Crescent into Arabia and Nubia which were sparsely populated. . At Tihama and other sites in Arabia we find pottery related to the C-Group people of Nubia (Keall, 2000;2008; Fattovish, 2008; Giumlia-Mair, 2002)The archaeological evidence indicates that C-Group people expanded from Nubia to Mesopotamia and the Indus Valley.
It appears that whereas the Egyptians preferred the cultivation of wheat, many ancient C-Group people were agro-pastoral people who cultivated Millet/Sorghum and raised cattle. The C-Group people are the Kushites of ancient history. They founded Wawat, Kerma,Meroitic, Sumerian, Elamite and Indus Valley civilizations.
The Tihama civilization probably originated in Nubia. It is characterized by the cheesecake or pillbox burial monuments which extend from Dhofar in Nubia, the Gara mountains to Adulis on the Gulf of Zula, to Hadramaut, Qataban, Ausan, Adenm, Asir, the Main area and Tihama.
These Niger-Congo people belonging to the C-Group probably spread sickle cell anemia into Arabia and beyond. This is supported by the spread of sickle cell anemia from Africa to India.
Indian tribal groups and Africans share Arab-India, Benin, and Senegal sickle cell anemia. The Senegal and Indian sickle cell share haplotypes. The Arab-Indian and Senegal haplotypes share the C!T mutation at position -158 .
Few West Africans came to Arabia as slaves. As a result the high frequency of Benin sickle cell in Oman and other parts of Arabia must be the result of this expansion of C-Group people into Arabia 4kya.
These Niger-Congo speakers probably remained a significant population in Arabia until the expansion of the People of the Sea, Persians, Islam, Syrians (Gutians) and later Turks into Arabia. As these populations settled Arabia, those Arabians who spoke non-Arabic dialects probably migrated back into Africa and joined thir fellow ethnic groups in West Africa, who had migrated into West Africa after the fall of Egypt and the Meroitic Empire. This would explain the presence of Fulani in the Fezzan, as well as Nigeria and the Senegambian region; and the former presence of Mande (Garamante/Garamande) in the Fezzan and Mauretania, who now dominate Senegambia and Niger Valley in addition to other parts of West Africa.
Reference:
Keall, E. J. (2000) >Changing Settlement along the Red Sea Coast of Yemen in the Bronze Age=, First International Congress on the Archaeology of the Ancient Near East (Rome May 18-23, 1998), Proceedings, (Matthiae, P., Enea, A., Peyronel, L. and Pinnock, F., eds), 719-31, Rome.
Giumlia-Mair, A., Keall, E. J., Shugar, A. and Stock, S. (2002) >Investigation of a Copper-based Hoard from the Megalithic Site of al-Midamman, Yemen: an Interdisciplinary Approach=, Journal of Archaeological Science 29, 195-209.
Keall, Dr. Edward J.Contact across the Red Sea (between Arabia and Africa) in the 2nd millennium BC: circumstantial evidence from the archaeological site of al-Midamman, Tihama coast of Yemen, and Dahlak Kabir Island, Eritrea .
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The majority of West Africans formerly lived just below Egypt in Nubia, before they moved westward into Cameroon, the Niger Valley and Senegambian regions. The traditional view of the dispersal of the Niger-Congo speakers would place their original home in the woodland savanna zone of West Africa, in the area of the Niger Basin (Ehret and Posnansky 1982:242 ). This is a most attractive theory but it does not conform to the archaeological data collected over the past decade. This material illustrates that until the second millennium BC the Inland Niger Delta was sparsely populated (McIntosh & McIntosh 1981 ,1986).
Wm. E. Welmers (1971),explained that the Niger-Congo homeland was in the vicinity of the upper Nile valley. He believes that the Westward migration began 5000 years ago. This was the center of the C-Group civilization.
In support of this theory he discusses the dogs of the Niger-Congo speakers. This is the unique barkless Basenji dogs which live in the Sudan and Uganda today, but were formerly recorded on Egyptian monuments (Welmers,1971). The Basanji dog is the Egyptian hieroglyphic sign for dog.
According to Welmers the Basanji, is related to the Liberian Basenji breed of the Kpelle and Loma people of Liberia. Welmers believes that the Mande took these dogs with them on their migration westward. The Kpelle and Loma speak Mande languages.
Welmers (1971) believes that the Niger Valley region and other regions of West Africa may have been unoccupied when the Mande migrated westward Nubia. In support of this theory Welmers' notes that the Liberian Banji dogs ,show no cross-breeding with dogs kept by other African groups in West Africa, and point to the early introduction of this cannine population after the separation of the Mande from the other Niger-Congo speakers in the original upper Nile homeland for this population. As a result, he claims that the Mande migration occured before these groups entered the region.
Linguistic research make it clear that there is a close relationship between the Niger-Congo Superlanguage family and the Nilo-Saharan languages spoken in the Sudan. Heine and Nurse (2000), discuss the Nilo-Saharan connection. They note that when Westerman described African languages he used lexical evidence to include the Nilo-Saharan and Niger-Congo languages into a Superfamily he called "Sudanic" (Heine & Nurse, 2000). Using Morphological and lexical similarities Gregerson indicated that these languages belonged to a macrophylum he named " Kongo-Saharan" (Heine and Nurse, 2000). Research by Blench reached the same conclusion, and he named this Superfamily: "Niger-Saharan" (Heine & Nurse, 2000).
Genetic evidence supports the upper Nile origin for the Niger-Congo speakers. Rosa et al, in Y-Chromosomal diversity in the population of Guinea-Bissau (2007), noted that while most Mande & Balanta carry the E3a-M2 gene, there are a number of Felupe-Djola, Papel, Fulbe and Mande carry the M3b*-M35 gene the same as many people in the Sudan.
In addition to haplogroup E3, we also find some carriers of R1*-M173 throughout Africa and Oman. We observe that 34% of the carriers of y-chromosome M173 in Africa speak Niger-Congo languages. This genetic evidence makes it clear that R1*-M173 was probably carried by some C-Group speakers. Carriers of haplogroup R1 to Oman were probably Niger-Congo speakers.
Coia et al (2005) provides substantial data that the presence of R1*-M173 did not follow the spread of the spread of mtDNA haplogroup U6 in Sub-Saharan Africa, which is found in North Africa (Coia et al, 2005). This suggest that R1*-M173 may not be the result of back migration from Asia if this theory depends on the spread of haplogroup U6 in areas where R1*-M173 is found.
Welmers proposed an upper Nile (Sudan-Uganda) homeland for the Niger-Congo speakers. He claims that they remained intact until 5000 years ago. This view is supported by linguistic and genetics evidence. The linguistic evidence makes it clear that the Nilo-Saharan and Niger-Congo languages are related. The genetic evidence indicates that Nilo-Saharan and Niger-Congo speakers carry the y-chromosomes M3b*-M35 and R1*-M173, an indicator for the earlier presence of speakers of these languages in an original Nile Valley homeland; and spread of R1 to Oman by speakers of these languages.
Reference:
Coia V. , G Destro-Bisol, F Verginelli, C Battaggia, I Boschi, F Cruciani, G Spedini, D Comas and F Calafell, 2005. Brief communication: mtDNA variation in North Cameroon: lack of Asian lineages and implications for back migration from Asia to sub-Saharan Africa, Am J Phys Anthropol (http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/fulltext/110495269/PDFSTART) (electronically published May 13, 2005; accessed August 5, 2005).
Heine,B. and Nurse,D. (Eds.).2002. African languages: An introduction , Cambridge University Press. ISBN 0-521-666295.
Cruciani,F., Trombetta,B., Sellitto, D., Massaia,A. destroy-Bisol,G., Watson, E., Colomb, E.B. 2010. Eur J. Hum Genet.,(6 January 2010) doi:10.1038/ejhg.2009.231: 1-8. Ehret,C. & Posnansky,M. 1982. The Archaeological and Linguistic Reconstruction of African History. Berkeley. McIntosh,S.K. & McIntosh,R.J.1981. "West African Prehistory". American Scientist ,69:602-613. _____________.1986. "Archaeological Research and dates from West Africa". Journal of African History, 27:413-42.
quote:Originally posted by awlaadberry: This is very interesting because most of the people of Benin are from the Yoruba tribe and the Yoruba tribe claims descent from Ya'arub the son of Qahtaan. It is said that their name - Yoruba - is from Ya'arub.
The people of Oman and Yemen are also from Ya'arub the son of Qahtaan. In fact, there was a dynasty in Oman called the Ya'aruba Dynasty. It was started by a descendant of Ya'arub.
"Since the expulsion of the Portuguese no other foreign power has ever occupied Oman, apart from a brief period when the Persians made a partial occupation. The Ya'aruba Imams introduced a period of renaissance in Omani fortunes both at home and abroad, uniting the country and bringing prosperity. It was under the Ya'aruba dynasty that many of the imposing castles and beautiful buildings that have been restored recently, such as the fort at Nizwa and the Palace at Jabrin, were built.
By the middle Ages, Oman had established itself as a prosperous seafaring nation, sending dhows from its great port at Sohar to trade with merchants in far flung destinations. It seems likely that at this time Sohar was one of the largest and most important cities in the Arab world.
In the early 16th century the powerful Portuguese trading empire sought to extend its influence and reduce Oman’s control over the thriving Arabian Sea and Indian Ocean routes. Portuguese troops invaded Oman and captured some of the coastal areas, occupying them for up to 150 years before being defeated by Sultan bin Saif Al Ya’rubi.
During the Ya’ruba period (1624 – 1744) Oman entered an era of prosperity at home and abroad, and many of the Sultanate’s historic buildings and forts date from this time. However, expansion ended when civil war erupted between rival Omani tribes over the election of a new Imam. Persian forces seized the opportunity to invade and some coastal areas found themselves under foreign occupation once again."
Shaikh Adam Abdellah Al Illori says that the Yoruba of "West Africa" are a branch of the descendants of Ya'arub found in "North Africa" who separated from the descendants of Ya'arub in the Yemen and Hijaz. Shaikh Adam Abdellah Al Illori is from the Yoruba tribe.
The etymology of the name "Yoruba" can be traced to the Arabic or Arhamaic language. I am not too good in referencing posts, I would have referred to you the post in which I discussed your question. Let's look at Yoruba and the believed founder of the tribe, Lamurudu.
The word Yoruba was used to refer to a people that emigrated from an Arab culture. As you head North and encounter different languages its pronounciation gets closer to "Ya Arab". Ya Arab stand for the "Children of Arab" or "People of Arab" or "Descent of Arab".
The Hausas call Yoruba "Bayarabe". They call Arabs, "Balarabe" . Sometimes they will say "Yarabawa" for Yoruba and "Larabawa" for Arab. Who were the Arabs at the time of Lamurudu arriving in Ife? They were idol worshippers who believed in gods. Lamurudu brought that tradition to Ife and instituted it as the religion of the Yorubas. The Arab land covered all along the eastern edge of Africa to the horn by Somalia and into Yemen and up into what today is Saudi Arbia. Lamurudu was an Arab of Axum descent. Axum was in what is now Ethiopia. Yorubas are not the only Arabian migrants to current Nigeria. The Shuwa Arabs are too. They are found in Adamawa and Borno and they are of Sudan descent.
To explain Lamurudu (Oduduwa's father), let's look at two names; Abdul Hamid and Al Amin. When pronounced in Yoruba, the first becomes Lamidi and the second Lamina. There are people today in Yorubaland called Lamidi and Lamina and if you tell them its correctly spelled Abdul Hamid and Al Amin they will dispute it. Using this analogy, Lamurudu would be something like Al Marud. Lamurudu has no translation in Yoruba language, it is widely acknowledged that its a foreign name.
The story of Lamurudu beaing a man of Eastern origin is true. He emigrated from Ethiopia. Now did every Yoruba emigrated with him and are of Eastern origin? NO!"
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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Some researchers might argue that there is no relationship between the Yoruba in Nigeria and a possible Yoruba population in Arabia, because of the Nok culture.
This reasoning lacks any basis because it is clear that people in West Africa probably maintained connections with their tribal brothers who may have lived hundreds of miles away.
THE EMPIRE OF GHANA
An ancient empire in West Africa following Tichitt was Ghana. The Soninke speaking people who found this nation called the empire Aouker. The term Ghana/ Gana means "War Chief". The King of Ghana was called Kaya Maghan or Manga . Kaya Maghan , means 'King of Gold'. The king of Ghana was both the political head of the empire, and leader of the snake cult.
Ghana is believed to be an offshoot of the Dar Tichitt civilization. The empire of Ghana was founded by the Soninke speaking Mande. The people in this empire practiced an agropastoral economy based on cattle herding and millet cultivation.
The empire of Ghana was around 200,000 Km. in length. It was centrally located in the Aouker region, between the Niger and Senegal rivers. The capital city of Ghana was Kumbi Saleh. Kumbi Saleh was divided into three parts, the king's residence , a central sector inhabited by Soninke and non-Soninke speaking merchants and craftsmen , and the third part of the city occupied by citizens, slaves and livestock. Much of the grain of the empire was stored at Tegdaoust (the Aoudaghast of the Arab writers).
Ghana exported gold to the Romans. The empire of Ghana which began around 300 B.C., lasted for over 1000 years. By A.D. 700 Ghana had become an empire made up of many African nations in the Sahel. By A.D. 1154 the Soninke had begun to adopt Islam.
According to Ptolemy, Gannaria denoted a cape on the north coast of what is now called Mauritania. This is interesting because the Wolof call Mauritania Ganar and both Gannaria and Ganar agree with Gana (Ghana) the name for the Soninke empire.
This suggest that ancient Ghana stretched from the Sahara to the Atlantic Ocean.
The people of Ghana wore loin cloths and short trousers. In war they used both elephants and horses. The people of Ghana also had a fine navy consisting of various types of boats.
The empire of Ghana went into a period of decline after they were attacked by the Almoravids in 1076. Sometime later the Maghan Sumaguru lost a battle to Sundiata, a King of ancient Mali. After this victory of Sundiata, Ghana went into a period of decline and was absorbed by the empire of Mali.The best example of this is the Mande group.
It is clear that the Mande people of Dar Tichitt kept in communication with the Garamante/Garamande people in the Fezzan via the chariot routes connecting these areas. This led some researchers to claim that after the fall of the Garamante/Garamande empire in the Fezzan these Mande speaking people migrated into the Niger Valley, like the people of Dar Tichitt.
Rferences: A. Holl, "Background to the Ghana Empire: Archaeological investigation on the transition to statehood in the Dar Tichitt Region (Mauritania)". Journal of Anthropological Archaeology, no.4 (1985),pp.73-115.
P.J. Munson, "Archaeological data on the origin of cultivation in the southwestern Sahara and its implications for West Africa". In Origin of African Plant Domestication, (ed.) by J.R. Harlan, et al . The Hague: Mouton,1976.
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There definitely is a connection. Some may be attributed to slavery, but that can't be said about all of it and how prevalent Benin Hbs is on the Arabian Peninsula.
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No one said there was no connection the question was did the West African forest zone Civilization developed because of in migrating Arabs who distributed the Benin Hbs to the region..the answer is no!!and the carriers of that gene need not be carriers of culture,think of it like a relay where the batton in this case Benin hbs gene got past on until it's carriers reached Greece and the Arabian peninsular although it does not rule direct contact as shown by the map above but irregardless it is called BENIN HBS because that particular strain was developed in Benin as shown in the map below as separate from the Senegal and Bantu strain and why would anyone would want leap frog over important sites like Kintampo, http://egyptsearchreloaded.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=hist&action=display&thread=511 and KiriKongo http://egyptsearchreloaded.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=hist&action=display&thread=501 in search of answers in far away Arabia without looking at those sights in depth first is beyond me.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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This thread is not about Arabs spreading civilization to West Africa. It is concerned with the fact that populations carrying sickle cell formerly settled in Arabia, and later migrated back to Africa and joined other members of their tribe in West Africa.
Europeans have taught us for years that the traditions of many African groups that some of their ancestors came from Arabia was a lie, made up to provide these populations with a connection to the founders of Islam.
The sickle cell evidence makes it clear that West Africans formerly lived in Arabia. The rise of Islam probably forced people on the Arabian peninsula to give up their native languages when they adopted Islam--and Arabic,the language of the faithful. While others not interested in Islam left Arabia.
This supports the African traditions of people migrating from Arabia to West Africa.
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Diop discussed the Kushites of Arabia in The African Origin of Civilization(pp.124-126). Accoring to Diop, they were called Adites. These Adites were a major power in Arabia until the rise of the white Jectanide tribes who began to force out the Kushites after 800BC. These Adites/Kushites were probably reponsible for the Tihama culture.
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I just read these pages in my book, The African Origin of Civilization(pp.124-126), and it confirms what you have said Clyde.
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quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Diop discussed the Kushites of Arabia in The African Origin of Civilization(pp.124-126). Accoring to Diop, they were called Adites. These Adites were a major power in Arabia until the rise of the white Jectanide tribes who began to force out the Kushites after 800BC. These Adites/Kushites were probably reponsible for the Tihama culture.
The AFrican Arabians of Oman, Hadramaut and Yemen claim they originally came from Africa and all Arab writings name them as the Qahtan (Joktan) children of Shem. (This Shem appears to have been an African Shem not Syria). Ad is not a legendary name and is one of the Mahra-Shahra tribes mentioned as late as the last centruy by Gordon Latham as is the tribe of Amalek and Samudayt or Thamud (still modern), and other peoples often thought of as legendary in Middle Eastern written tradition are still living among thses mostly black Arabians. It is the Mahra Dawasir people who descend from Qahtan through Himyar and Kahlan children of Saba and who speak the dialects of Saba or the language of Ad as the later Arab documenters call it. Ya'Arab or Iarob (as Diop calls him) is son of Qahtan as well.
From this word comes the term Arab.
As far as the Arabian tradition goes Adite and Kushites are definitely responsible for the Tihama or Sabir culture (also called Afro-Arabian by archeologists) from which emerged the Sabaean or Himyarite cultures. As well they are probably connected to the Umm an Nar of the Gulf and Oman which probably had some roots in the Eridu culture ( and may have been Magan of Mesopotamian tradition).
Ibn Mudjawir apparently referred to Tihama as Kush. Between 5 and 2,000 a very large or robust built archaic form of the so-called Negro (as represented in the Ubaid culture and Bronze Age Umm an Nar) apparently met with the elongated Nilotic and Afro-San type people moving into Arabia from Africa. These people intermingled in Arabia forming the semite, kushite or children of Noah so to speak.
From an archeological standpoint there is little question movement also took place from Arabia into Africa beginning at the latest by the 3rd millenium B.C..
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Is there an informative, reliable book on The Yemen's history? I've been trying to find a good book regarding the history of The Yemen.
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quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: The AFrican Arabians of Oman, Hadramaut and Yemen claim they originally came from Africa and all Arab writings name them as the Qahtan (Joktan) children of Shem. (This Shem appears to have been an African Shem not Syria). Ad is not a legendary name and is one of the Mahra-Shahra tribes mentioned as late as the last centruy by Gordon Latham as is the tribe of Amalek and Samudayt or Thamud (still modern), and other peoples often thought of as legendary in Middle Eastern written tradition are still living among thses mostly black Arabians. It is the Mahra Dawasir people who descend from Qahtan through Himyar and Kahlan children of Saba and who speak the dialects of Saba or the language of Ad as the later Arab documenters call it. Ya'Arab or Iarob (as Diop calls him) is son of Qahtan as well.
From this word comes the term Arab.
As far as the Arabian tradition goes Adite and Kushites are definitely responsible for the Tihama or Sabir culture (also called Afro-Arabian by archeologists) from which emerged the Sabaean or Himyarite cultures. As well they are probably connected to the Umm an Nar of the Gulf and Oman which probably had some roots in the Eridu culture ( and may have been Magan of Mesopotamian tradition).
Ibn Mudjawir apparently referred to Tihama as Kush. Between 5 and 2,000 a very large or robust built archaic form of the so-called Negro (as represented in the Ubaid culture and Bronze Age Umm an Nar) apparently met with the elongated Nilotic and Afro-San type people moving into Arabia from Africa. These people intermingled in Arabia forming the semite, kushite or children of Noah so to speak.
From an archeological standpoint there is little question movement also took place from Arabia into Africa beginning at the latest by the 3rd millenium B.C..
Magan wa probably Egypt as noted by Kramer not Oman.
There is no archaeological evidence for an ancient civilization in Oman c 3rd millenium BC to my knowledge. It appears that Semitic or Puntite people enter Arabia on their way to Mesopotamia after the Kushites.
Please discuss the evidence of a migration of Arabians back into Africa c. 3rd millenium that you mention above.
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Arab historians who didn't copy what Jewish and Christians said say that Kush was from Sam - not from Ham. They say that Nimrod was the son of Kush who was the son of Canaan who was the son of Sam who was the son of Noah. Or that Nimrod was the son of Canaan who was the son of Kush who was the son of Sam who was the son of Noah.
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quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: The Niger-Congo speakers originated in the Fertile African Crescent and migrated into Nubia.
LOL!!!!! What an Afrocentric liar.
Niger-Congo speakers originated in tropical West-Central Africa. They have NOTHING in common with Nubians (Nilo-Saharan speakers). Posts: 55 | Registered: Mar 2011
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You who are simple minded racists who wish to post on Egyptsearch (your usual racist, IQ stuff, and the other irrelevent nonsense), would you please use the Ancient Egypt forum and not cloud Egyptology with your stupidity and nonsense...Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Watu: Most scholars do not agree with Clyde Winters.
Your statements are extremely vacuous...
a) who are these "most scholars?";
b) who don't agree with Dr. Winters about what???
If you want to hang out with the adults here on Egyptology, you've got to do better than that...
Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:Originally posted by awlaadberry: Arab historians who didn't copy what Jewish and Christians said say that Kush was from Sam - not from Ham. They say that Nimrod was the son of Kush who was the son of Canaan who was the son of Sam who was the son of Noah. Or that Nimrod was the son of Canaan who was the son of Kush who was the son of Sam who was the son of Noah.
I discovered that myself awlaad that early ARabian genealogies don't include Ham and in fact the name of Ham and allegory in semitic traditions comes from the Sabaean tribe of Hamdan or Hamd which refers to the fermented or dark stinking mud. The black tribe of Numayr bin Khasid or Cassit belongs to these people and thus in Iranian influenced tradition we have Numrod son of Kush or Kassit son of Ham. The allegory of Ham, Shem and Japhet is based on the original ancient Arabian people whose remnant in Arabia still claim to be of African (Nilotic Nubian) origin.
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quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: The AFrican Arabians of Oman, Hadramaut and Yemen claim they originally came from Africa and all Arab writings name them as the Qahtan (Joktan) children of Shem. (This Shem appears to have been an African Shem not Syria). Ad is not a legendary name and is one of the Mahra-Shahra tribes mentioned as late as the last centruy by Gordon Latham as is the tribe of Amalek and Samudayt or Thamud (still modern), and other peoples often thought of as legendary in Middle Eastern written tradition are still living among thses mostly black Arabians. It is the Mahra Dawasir people who descend from Qahtan through Himyar and Kahlan children of Saba and who speak the dialects of Saba or the language of Ad as the later Arab documenters call it. Ya'Arab or Iarob (as Diop calls him) is son of Qahtan as well.
From this word comes the term Arab.
As far as the Arabian tradition goes Adite and Kushites are definitely responsible for the Tihama or Sabir culture (also called Afro-Arabian by archeologists) from which emerged the Sabaean or Himyarite cultures. As well they are probably connected to the Umm an Nar of the Gulf and Oman which probably had some roots in the Eridu culture ( and may have been Magan of Mesopotamian tradition).
Ibn Mudjawir apparently referred to Tihama as Kush. Between 5 and 2,000 a very large or robust built archaic form of the so-called Negro (as represented in the Ubaid culture and Bronze Age Umm an Nar) apparently met with the elongated Nilotic and Afro-San type people moving into Arabia from Africa. These people intermingled in Arabia forming the semite, kushite or children of Noah so to speak.
From an archeological standpoint there is little question movement also took place from Arabia into Africa beginning at the latest by the 3rd millenium B.C..
Magan wa probably Egypt as noted by Kramer not Oman.
There is no archaeological evidence for an ancient civilization in Oman c 3rd millenium BC to my knowledge. It appears that Semitic or Puntite people enter Arabia on their way to Mesopotamia after the Kushites.
P
Umm an Nar is the name given to the Bronze Culture of northern Oman and the United Arab Emirates. The population therein were discovered to be of the prognathous large-bodied Eridu i.e. Ubaid type.
Magan and Meluchha in later times it is usually agreed referred to the Arabian tribes of west Arabia whom the Assyrians encountered extending to Egypt.
The archeological evidence includes that related to Jubba style rock art and the people of the early Umm an Nar entering the Horn and influencing Kerma as well as the later groups.
I will have to look back into the back migration that is supposed to have been related to the Te Gerrah (Tigre) and other Eritrean groups, but the some of the ties I have already discussed in another posting on Egyptsearch
According to Profumi d'Arabia: atti del convegno by Alessandra Avanzini the Jubba style most likely spread later along the upper rift valley. The author also writes "by the 1st millenium B.C." this style had already "spread from Eritrea to Nubia, southern Upper Egypt and the Sahara." p. 281 1997.
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Is there an informative, reliable book on The Yemen's history? I've been trying to find a good book regarding the history of The Yemen.
As for Yemen's history I don't know unless you are talking about early Islamic history. There is no general tell all on the Yemen that I am familiar with. Most are either archeological or deal with early Islamic history. You might try Abd al Muhsi Madhaj's, Yemen in Early Islam, 9-233/630-84.
Otherwise I also use Kamal Salibi's, The Bible Came from Arabia. It actually presents a convincing argument that the history in the Old Testament actually relates to early Yemenite history and movement of tribes northward from the Wadi Beisha and Marib areas. It is hard to get though unless you buy it on ebay and its usually close to 100 dollars as it is rare.
D.T. Potts is a specialist I trust on the early and ancient Arabian history although his specialty is the Gulf, and his articles and books are more for academics or scholars on the subject. One of his works include, the Arabian Gulf in Antiquity.
Other than that I like to look at what early "Arab" and colonialist historians wrote.
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posted
A while ago E. Adams wrote on the ANE blog affiliated with the Oriental Institue at teh University of Chicago , "The similarities between the Lower Nubian C group culture and the 3rd milennilium Omani cultures with their burial mounds and cheesecake tombs, triliths, possible servant sacrifices in the largest tombs, the similarity of the internal floorplans of the Umm-an-Nar tombs with those of the later Kerma royal tumuli with their Ur-style human sacrifices, etc. are intriguing... "
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: A while ago E. Adams wrote on the ANE blog affiliated with the Oriental Institue at teh University of Chicago , "The similarities between the Lower Nubian C group culture and the 3rd milennilium Omani cultures with their burial mounds and cheesecake tombs, triliths, possible servant sacrifices in the largest tombs, the similarity of the internal floorplans of the Umm-an-Nar tombs with those of the later Kerma royal tumuli with their Ur-style human sacrifices, etc. are intriguing... "
I already discussed this fact above in relation to the Tihama culture which originated in Nubia and spread to Arabia.
I am interested in pre-Islamic Yemen. I just bought the book!
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:Originally posted by Neferet: Dana,
Is there an informative, reliable book on The Yemen's history? I've been trying to find a good book regarding the history of The Yemen.
As for Yemen's history I don't know unless you are talking about early Islamic history. There is no general tell all on the Yemen that I am familiar with. Most are either archeological or deal with early Islamic history. You might try Abd al Muhsi Madhaj's, Yemen in Early Islam, 9-233/630-84.
Otherwise I also use Kamal Salibi's, The Bible Came from Arabia. It actually presents a convincing argument that the history in the Old Testament actually relates to early Yemenite history and movement of tribes northward from the Wadi Beisha and Marib areas. It is hard to get though unless you buy it on ebay and its usually close to 100 dollars as it is rare.
D.T. Potts is a specialist I trust on the early and ancient Arabian history although his specialty is the Gulf, and his articles and books are more for academics or scholars on the subject. One of his works include, the Arabian Gulf in Antiquity.
Other than that I like to look at what early "Arab" and colonialist historians wrote.
quote:Originally posted by Neferet: I am finally happy to see this posted. It is very true, and DNA don't lie
Well DNA data can be manipulated to present a false and distorted picture of African peoples. Always take a hard look at the sampling and the underlying assumptions of various DNA studies. Examples:
posted
^ True enough. DNA like crania or any studies can be distorted. That is why it is always important to know: 1. Where the samples were taken
2. When they were taken-- representing what time period.
3. Know the exact contexts or features of other samples or in the case of DNA know their coalescence frame and divergences.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Magan wa probably Egypt as noted by Kramer not Oman.
There is no archaeological evidence for an ancient civilization in Oman c 3rd millenium BC to my knowledge. It appears that Semitic or Puntite people enter Arabia on their way to Mesopotamia after the Kushites.
Please discuss the evidence of a migration of Arabians back into Africa c. 3rd millenium that you mention above.
There is archaeological evidence that suggests Magan was probably located in modern Bahrain. Most of that evidence is sadly underwater indicating that the land was larger back then before submersion.
quote:Originally posted by IronLion:
quote:Originally posted by WatanIdiot: ....... Niger-Congo speakers originated in tropical West-Central Africa. They have NOTHING in common with Nubians (Nilo-Saharan speakers).
Spot the difference: Nubians: Hausas:
WatanIdiot obviously does not know that the oldest branch of Niger-Congo known as Cordofanian is located in the Sudan and shares certain features with Nilo-Saharan. It's because of this that many scholars believe Niger-Congo and Nilo-Saharan share common ancestry. To Iron-Lion the Hausa although West Africans are actually Afrasian speakers.
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ True enough. DNA like crania or any studies can be distorted. That is why it is always important to know: 1. Where the samples were taken
2. When they were taken-- representing what time period.
3. Know the exact contexts or features of other samples or in the case of DNA know their coalescence frame and divergences.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Magan wa probably Egypt as noted by Kramer not Oman.
There is no archaeological evidence for an ancient civilization in Oman c 3rd millenium BC to my knowledge. It appears that Semitic or Puntite people enter Arabia on their way to Mesopotamia after the Kushites.
Please discuss the evidence of a migration of Arabians back into Africa c. 3rd millenium that you mention above.
There is archaeological evidence that suggests Magan was probably located in modern Bahrain. Most of that evidence is sadly underwater indicating that the land was larger back then before submersion.
quote:Originally posted by IronLion:
quote:Originally posted by WatanIdiot: ....... Niger-Congo speakers originated in tropical West-Central Africa. They have NOTHING in common with Nubians (Nilo-Saharan speakers).
Spot the difference: Nubians: Hausas:
WatanIdiot obviously does not know that the oldest branch of Niger-Congo known as Cordofanian is located in the Sudan and shares certain features with Nilo-Saharan. It's because of this that many scholars believe Niger-Congo and Nilo-Saharan share common ancestry. To Iron-Lion the Hausa although West Africans are actually Afrasian speakers.
I think the fact that Hausa speak an Afro-San dialect is more reason to suggest they may have come from much further east or from the Nile area. After all although some have thought Meroeitic to have been NiloSaharan like modern Nubian we not at all sure all of the people south of Egypt were speaking between 5,000 and 3,000 years ago.
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posted
Yes, I have also taken this into account, and did further research.
quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
quote:Originally posted by Neferet: I am finally happy to see this posted. It is very true, and DNA don't lie
Well DNA data can be manipulated to present a false and distorted picture of African peoples. Always take a hard look at the sampling and the underlying assumptions of various DNA studies. Examples:
quote:Originally posted by WatanIdiot: Nubians have nothing in common with tropical Niger-Bongo-Congo speakers.
You mean being black Africans with similarities in culture counts for nothing? By the way, you obviously ignored what I said about Niger-Congo and Nilo-Saharan sharing common origins, which may count for many of the similarities.
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: I think the fact that Hausa speak an Afro-San dialect is more reason to suggest they may have come from much further east or from the Nile area. After all although some have thought Meroitic to have been Nilo-Saharan like modern Nubian we not at all sure all of the people south of Egypt were speaking between 5,000 and 3,000 years ago.
Hausa is a member of the Chadic branch of Afrisan. Chad has the largest number and diversity of Chadic languages, which is why many scholars think it to be the area of origin for proto-Chadic. The Hausa do have a tradition of coming from the east and not surprisingly, from the area of Chad. According to their tradition their ancestors lived around a large lake perhaps Lake Chad.
We don't know what exactly Meroitic was. Some features point to Nilo-Sahara, while others point to Afrisan. Either way, it is African anyway you cut it.
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posted
For the most part the Hausa are thought to be closely connected to the Kanuri and the smith castes of both of these in oral tradition claim to be have been those used by the Pharaohs. While others claim an origin even further east. The Kanuri are Nilo-Saharan speakers while Hausa are Afro-Asiatics.
Over the years I have read many articles on the Hausa a large part talking about some movement from Nubia such as is asserted below.
"Between 500 CE and 700 CE Hausa people, who had been slowly moving west from Nubia and mixing in with the local Northern and Central Nigerian population, established a number of strong states in what is now Northern and Central Nigeria and Eastern Niger. With the decline of the Nok and Sokoto, who had previously controlled Central and Northern Nigeria between 800 BCE and 200 CE, the Hausa were able to emerge as the new power in the region. Closely linked with the Kanuri people of Kanem-Bornu (Lake Chad), the Hausa aristocracy adopted Islam in the 11th century CE...."
Nubia was of course a land of several distinct peoples.
So-called Hausaland or the area of the Hausa states in the late period of 1100AD were spread from the Niger to Lake Chad.
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posted
^ I don't know about all that. It seems to be one big fabrication to connect themselves to "greater" people, especially Arabs. The oldest traditions kept by the least Islamicized simply say they originated only a little farther east in a lake area.
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quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Diop discussed the Kushites of Arabia in The African Origin of Civilization(pp.124-126). Accoring to Diop, they were called Adites. These Adites were a major power in Arabia until the rise of the white Jectanide tribes who began to force out the Kushites after 800BC. These Adites/Kushites were probably reponsible for the Tihama culture.
The AFrican Arabians of Oman, Hadramaut and Yemen claim they originally came from Africa and all Arab writings name them as the Qahtan (Joktan) children of Shem. (This Shem appears to have been an African Shem not Syria). Ad is not a legendary name and is one of the Mahra-Shahra tribes mentioned as late as the last centruy by Gordon Latham as is the tribe of Amalek and Samudayt or Thamud (still modern), and other peoples often thought of as legendary in Middle Eastern written tradition are still living among thses mostly black Arabians. It is the Mahra Dawasir people who descend from Qahtan through Himyar and Kahlan children of Saba and who speak the dialects of Saba or the language of Ad as the later Arab documenters call it. Ya'Arab or Iarob (as Diop calls him) is son of Qahtan as well.
From this word comes the term Arab.
As far as the Arabian tradition goes Adite and Kushites are definitely responsible for the Tihama or Sabir culture (also called Afro-Arabian by archeologists) from which emerged the Sabaean or Himyarite cultures. As well they are probably connected to the Umm an Nar of the Gulf and Oman which probably had some roots in the Eridu culture ( and may have been Magan of Mesopotamian tradition).
Ibn Mudjawir apparently referred to Tihama as Kush. Between 5 and 2,000 a very large or robust built archaic form of the so-called Negro (as represented in the Ubaid culture and Bronze Age Umm an Nar) apparently met with the elongated Nilotic and Afro-San type people moving into Arabia from Africa. These people intermingled in Arabia forming the semite, kushite or children of Noah so to speak.
From an archeological standpoint there is little question movement also took place from Arabia into Africa beginning at the latest by the 3rd millenium B.C..
Dana,
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "African Arabians" and that they claim they originally came from "Africa". Hadramout, like his brother Ya'arub, is the son of Qahtan and Qahtan is the son of 'Aabir the son of Shaalikh the son of Qainan the son of Arfakshadh the son of Sam the son of Noah. The ancestor of our father Abraham (AS) is Faligh, the brother of Qahtan, and that makes Faligh, too, a descendant of Arfakshadh. Saba is a descendant of Qahtan. He is Saba the son of Yashjab the son of Ya'arab the son of Qahtan. Himyar and Kahlan are the sons of Saba. The Al-Azd and the Midhhaj and the Murad are all descendants of Kahlan. Bilqis (the Queen of Sheba) is also a descendant of Saba through another of his sons, Saifi. She is Bilqis the daughter of Yashrakh the son of Dhi Jadin the son of Al-Harith the son of Qais the son of Saifi the son of Saba.
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quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Diop discussed the Kushites of Arabia in The African Origin of Civilization(pp.124-126). Accoring to Diop, they were called Adites. These Adites were a major power in Arabia until the rise of the white Jectanide tribes who began to force out the Kushites after 800BC. These Adites/Kushites were probably reponsible for the Tihama culture.
The AFrican Arabians of Oman, Hadramaut and Yemen claim they originally came from Africa and all Arab writings name them as the Qahtan (Joktan) children of Shem. (This Shem appears to have been an African Shem not Syria). Ad is not a legendary name and is one of the Mahra-Shahra tribes mentioned as late as the last centruy by Gordon Latham as is the tribe of Amalek and Samudayt or Thamud (still modern), and other peoples often thought of as legendary in Middle Eastern written tradition are still living among thses mostly black Arabians. It is the Mahra Dawasir people who descend from Qahtan through Himyar and Kahlan children of Saba and who speak the dialects of Saba or the language of Ad as the later Arab documenters call it. Ya'Arab or Iarob (as Diop calls him) is son of Qahtan as well.
From this word comes the term Arab.
As far as the Arabian tradition goes Adite and Kushites are definitely responsible for the Tihama or Sabir culture (also called Afro-Arabian by archeologists) from which emerged the Sabaean or Himyarite cultures. As well they are probably connected to the Umm an Nar of the Gulf and Oman which probably had some roots in the Eridu culture ( and may have been Magan of Mesopotamian tradition).
Ibn Mudjawir apparently referred to Tihama as Kush. Between 5 and 2,000 a very large or robust built archaic form of the so-called Negro (as represented in the Ubaid culture and Bronze Age Umm an Nar) apparently met with the elongated Nilotic and Afro-San type people moving into Arabia from Africa. These people intermingled in Arabia forming the semite, kushite or children of Noah so to speak.
From an archeological standpoint there is little question movement also took place from Arabia into Africa beginning at the latest by the 3rd millenium B.C..
Dana,
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "African Arabians" and that they claim they originally came from "Africa". Hadramout, like his brother Ya'arub, is the son of Qahtan and Qahtan is the son of 'Aabir the son of Shaalikh the son of Qainan the son of Arfakshadh the son of Sam the son of Noah. The ancestor of our father Abraham (AS) is Faligh, the brother of Qahtan, and that makes Faligh, too, a descendant of Arfakshadh. Saba is a descendant of Qahtan. He is Saba the son of Yashjab the son of Ya'arab the son of Qahtan. Himyar and Kahlan are the sons of Saba. The Al-Azd and the Midhhaj and the Murad are all descendants of Kahlan. Bilqis (the Queen of Sheba) is also a descendant of Saba through another of his sons, Saifi. She is Bilqis the daughter of Yashrakh the son of Dhi Jadin the son of Al-Harith the son of Qais the son of Saifi the son of Saba.
Shem may very well have been originally an African region south of Egypt, Tariq, as Palmer thought. The people still speaking the dialects closely related to Himyarite in Arabia claim to have come in remote times from Africa. This is what colonial writers say about the Mahra Shara or Qudhaa and Afar or Afyr ancestors of Thuwar adn Kinda. We must accept and never forget this.
I have mentioned this several times before - that the Mahra Qara and other nearly pure peoples from Himyar and Kahlan have traditions that they came anciently from Africa. “…these tribes – with the exception of the Harasis – have a tradition of African origin, the order of their local antiquity being Shahara, Bautahara, Mahra, Qara. From found in “ The South Eastern Borderlands of Rub-al Khali, Geographical Journal, vol. 128, No. 3 March 1929.
They are the only people still speaking dialects of the Sabeans/Himyarites so they should know, and further the Arabs like Hamdani and Khaldun said Mahra spoke the "language of Ad" and Hawil(Hevila).
There is also evidence early Himyarite and Qahtan kings ruled both parts of the Eritrean and Arabian Seas from the very early times. So frankly we don't know for sure if Shem, Ad, Lud etc were born in Africa or south Arabia.
In any case the people that came to occupy the area in which Himyarites emerged in the Arbian Yemen was part of an African Arabian biocultural area. As you must know from talking with Wesley, there is a Nilotic tradition of the ark of Nuh and many of the Ethiopian, Arabian and/or Hebrew ancestors seem to have relationship to the names of ancient African and Egyptian deities. Ba'al a major "semitic" or Canaanite deity for example was undoubtedly the ancient Egyptian Up'au or Up Wawet who became Ubullon or Upullon of the early Greeks (or Apollo).
In any case, I'm using "African" in a biological sense not geographical sense since many southwest Asian groups appear to have been essentially related as late as the late Bronze Age to populations of sub-Saharan Africans. Since these people are no longer predominant in southwest Asia or Arabia, I prefer not to get them mixed up with populations that are of non- African later Middle Eastern or Central Asian affiliation (biologically-speaking).
I would also suggest that to say that Africans are derived from "Arabs" is confusing, if not also denigrating to Africans since many so-called "Arabs" we both agree have little to do with the original Arabs let alone Africans in Africa. Its different than saying original Arabs were black populations and these were living in Arabia or Mesopotamia in ancient and early Islamic times.
The word "Arab" as conceived of today is a primarily a nationality born of Middle Eastern politics that is not reflective or related to what was meant in the ancient and early Islamic world when it was used in an ethnic context almost exclusively for black populations in Arabia - so why use it. I always try to utilize the word Arabian or Afro-Arabian rather than "Arab".
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In any case, I'm using "African" in a biological sense not geographical sense since many southwest Asian groups appear to have been essentially related as late as the late Bronze Age to populations of sub-Saharan Africans. Since these people are no longer predominant in southwest Asia or Arabia, I prefer not to get them mixed up with populations that are of non- African later Middle Eastern or Central Asian affiliation (biologically-speaking).
I would also suggest that to say that Africans are derived from "Arabs" is confusing, if not also denigrating to Africans since many so-called "Arabs" we both agree have little to do with the original Arabs let alone Africans in Africa. Its different than saying original Arabs were black populations and these were living in Arabia or Mesopotamia in ancient and early Islamic times.
The word "Arab" as conceived of today is a primarily a nationality born of Middle Eastern politics that is not reflective or related to what was meant in the ancient and early Islamic world when it was used in an ethnic context almost exclusively for black populations in Arabia - so why use it. I always try to utilize the word Arabian or Afro-Arabian rather than "Arab".
Those Arabs who are red today would love for people to stop calling the dark-skinned, true Arabs, Arabs, but call them "African" instead while leaving the term Arab exclusively for the red Arabs. This is what they want, but this isn't the way it is. Those dark-skinned Arabs were/are not "Africans", but they are Arabs. If anyone should be given a different name, it's those who don't look like the Arabs of the past. Wouldn't it be better to give those who don't look like the Arabs of the past another name and continue calling the dark-skinned Arabs, Arabs? The Kinda and Kahlan and Himyar were all dark-skinned Arabs and they were Arabs, not "Africans". Aakl Al-Muraar - the first king of the Kinda was very black-skinned and he was an Arab, not an "African". Those people from Kinda today who are not black-skinned should explain what happened to their blackness, but we don't need to make the Kinda "Africans" to distinguish them from the light-skinned Arabs. The light-skinned Arabs need to explain what happened to their color. Do you understand what I mean, Dana?
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quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: [QB] Shem may very well have been originally an African region south of Egypt, Tariq, as Palmer thought. The people still speaking the dialects closely related to Himyarite in Arabia claim to have come in remote times from Africa. This is what colonial writers say about the Mahra Shara or Qudhaa and Afar or Afyr ancestors of Thuwar adn Kinda. We must accept and never forget this.
I have mentioned this several times before - that the Mahra Qara and other nearly pure peoples from Himyar and Kahlan have traditions that they came anciently from Africa. “…these tribes – with the exception of the Harasis – have a tradition of African origin, the order of their local antiquity being Shahara, Bautahara, Mahra, Qara. From found in “ The South Eastern Borderlands of Rub-al Khali, Geographical Journal, vol. 128, No. 3 March 1929.
What word did they use to say that they came anciently from "Africa"?
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Are we overlooking the signature of the Out of Africa?
In my recent review of mtDNA L(xM,N), following mostly Behar 2008, I noticed that some of those lineages have distributions that either partly or totally do not seem to correspond with Africa South of the Sahara, but clearly penetrate since old times into West Asia, North Africa or both.
So I wonder: aren't some of them remnants of the migration Out of Africa, which never really made it to South Asia?
Let's see. The mutation count between "mitochondrial Eve" and the L3 node is of 23 (coding region only), to M is of 26 and to N of 28. This is roughly the "time frame" of the Out of Africa. By the "time" of 30 CR mutations the backflow of Eurasian mtDNA to West Asia was already beginning (mostly in form of R derivatives but also M1 and N1, and later some other N subclades too) and this became a clearly dominant flow. Also since M1 specially, scattered into East Africa, it's possible that there was a second flow from Africa in that period of colonization of West Asia that was, no doubt, coincident with the early Mousterian Puvial, when the region became less arid.
I find that the following lineages, normally tagged as "African", should have been involved in the Out of Africa episode:
L4b: at 24 mutations appears to have almost the same age as L3. It has two basal lineages: L4b1, which is only found in Yemen, and L4b2, typical of the Hadza and Sandawe, and found also among Ethiopians (with offshoots in Southern Africa and Arabia) and the Lisango of DR Congo and/or CAR.
L0f2: at 24 CR mutations looks only slightly younger than L3 and surely older than M. One of its sublineages (L0f2a) is only found at Oman, while the other is at Ethiopia (L0f2b).
L0a1b: at 26 CR mutations should have the same age as M. One of its sublineages is only found in Arabia Peninsula (L0a1b2), while the other is shared between Morocco and Southern Africa (L0a1b1).
L5c: at 28 CR mutations appears to be as old as N. One of its sublineages is found at Egypt (L5c2) and the other at Ethiopia (L5c1).
L3e2: at 29 CR mutations appears of the same age as R. L3e2a is shared by West and North Africa, while L3e2b has two lineages that are only found in Jordan (one of the L3e2b*) and Oman and Egypt (L3e2b2).
L6 shows 38 mutations, however the root of its very long stem is necessarily older than L3 (as it's the oldest branch of L3'4'6). Today it looks like Yemen harbors the highest diversity, with offshoots at Ethiopia and Egypt.
There are others but seem younger than the 30 mutations that I decided as limit and may represent other flows, maybe related to the arrival of M1 to East Africa.
It's quite striking, to say the least, that these lineages have been overlooked, they really appear to my eyes as participants of the OoA at a more modest scale, never reaching South Asia or beyond.
Also notice that Yemen and Oman appear insistently in this list. All mentioned lineages, except L5c and possibly L3e2 should represent local fixation processes when people took the coastal route via southern Arabia.
I'd like also to add L3i to the list. It looks to me as centered at coastal Yemen and of similar age (slightly younger, 2 mutations downstream from L3, 25 from "Eve") as M.
Update (Mar 21): Browsing through the East Asian mtDNA data at Tanaka 2004, I just spotted 1/20 (5%) L2 among the Sakai (Semang Negritos) of southern Thailand (Trang province). Not sure what to think but it is odd indeed. Another unlikely survival?
Update (May 5): Map of a plausible Abbassia Pluvial (120-90,000 years ago) Out of Africa migration with the candidate mtDNA lineages to have participated in it (red: L3, purple: other):
-------------------- لا اله الا الله و محمد الرسول الله Posts: 495 | From: anchorage, alaska | Registered: Feb 2007
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As it seems that there is a lot of confusion (including myself) on where are the various L(xM,N) lineages found and therefore on the patterns of spread of earliest humankind, I'm taking notes from Behar 2008 (specifically the figure S1).
Here it goes L0 (only CR mutations considered, marked as ">").
Notes: "SA" means Southern Africa (non-Khoisan), "Arabia" means Arabia peninsula when several locations mentioned. L0 and its two basal sublineages in bold type (for clarity).
Considerations:
While L0d looks very much Khoisan-specific and hence part of the earliest split of Humankid, L0a'b'f'k appears to have a more northernly center of expansion.
L0a would appear to have got an East African urheimat, however it's widely scattered, with some very old lineages only found in North Africa, Peninsular Arabia or even as far East as Iran (see fig. S1 of the paper for details), which can't be considered part of the slave trade.
L0b is Ethiopian, L0f Ethiopian and Omani (again too old the split to consider it part of the slave trade), while L0k is found among Khoisan and Yemenis (and again it looks as an old split).
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posted
The Dravidian and Sumerian people share cultural and linguistic features with Africans [10-14]. The archaeological evidence suggest that the Dravidian people belonged to the C-Group people of Nubia and migrated to India 5kya [9,10-11]. The Dravidian origination in Nubia, the original home of the Niger-Congo speakers who carry the Benin and Senegal HbS would explain the existence of African HbS haplotypes in India. These haplotypes in India suggest that they already existed among Dravidian and Niger-Congo speaking populations before they separated 5kya.
The HbS chromosome haplotypes of the Indian Tribals were Arab-Indian with 25% of the haplotypes possessing the epsilon polymorphic site identical to the Senegal6b. The Senegal and Indian sickle cell share haplotypes [8]. The Arab-Indian and Senegal haplotypes share the C!T mutation at position -158 4,7.
In India the Benin HbS is the most common haplotype in western India. To account for the presence of this haplotype in India researchers argue that African slaves took this gene to India.
There are problems with this theory.The major problem with the slave trade solution for thetransmission of the Benin haplotype to India, is that the African slaves in India are mainly of Somali-Ethiopian origin—not West African origin . In addition, the vast majority of dravidian carriers of SC are Dravidian Tribal populations who have had little contact with non-Indian groups for millenia.
C. Winters, Advantageous Alleles, Parallel Adaptation, Geographic Location and Sickle Cell Anemia among Africans and Indians http://www.soeagra.com/abr/vol2/12.pdf
posted
kya the C-Group people began to migrate out of the Fertile African Crescent into Arabia and Nubia..
^WHere exactly is the Fertile African Crescent?
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