posted
Is the particular J1 a native variant in Africa?
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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"Let's also not forget that the highest frequency of the basal paternal haplogroup J* is found in the dark-skinned Caucasoids from Socotra." So the old literature that speaks of "dark Arabs" and such is in all probability referring to people that looked that way, not to Negroid folks (the latter of whom obviously aren't native to the Middle East)." -Noah
posted
On M267 (J1*), in Ethiopia (the below study) only a very minority of J is recent, and the recent stuff is mostly M172 which constitutes like 2% in this study, and this is a study including mixed groups. At any rate this mentions the Amhara, which are of known mixed ancestry including of various Ethio- ethnies:
quote:Haplogroup J, characterized by the mutation 12f2.1,has been found at a frequency of approximately 18% in Ethiopians, with a relatively higher prevalence among the Amhara, where it has been found to exist at levels as high as 35% , of which about 33% is of the type J-M267, almost all of which was acquired during Neolithic times or earlier, while 2% is of the derived J-M172 type representing admixture due to recent and historic migrations.
- Origin, diffusion, and differentiation of Y-chromosome haplogroups E and J: inferences on the neolithization of Europe and later migratory events in the Mediterranean area American Journal of Human Genetics 74 (5): 1023–34. doi:10.1086/386295. PMID 15069642
- Semino O, Magri C, Benuzzi G, et al. 2004
However J1 may ultimately be Ethiopian / East African.
Basal J1* a.k.a. "the .2 variant" is described as such below:
quote:We recently found a number of intermediate DYS458 alleles, indicated as .2. This allelic variant is distributed in several populations, but currently no information is available regarding the molecular structure and the genealogical correlation of chromosomes with this variant. The molecular characterisation of such allele, its worldwide distribution and the correlated evolutionary history are the subject of the present paper. Molecular and genealogical data are suggestive of a single origin for the .2 variant. Phylogeographic analysis points to either a Middle East or East African origin, but additional data is necessary to clarify this point. Our results suggest that the .2 variants is a stable polymorphism and that it could be used for population studies
...
Initial SNPs analysis identified these chromosomes as derived at the M267 markers, placing them on the J1* cluster. J1 sub lineages were additionally tested (J1a–e) and in all cases the .2 chromosomes resulted ancestral at these additional markers. The DYS458 .2 Y chromosomes were then consequently identified as part of the J1 branch (Fig. 1).
...
The .2 variant shows its frequency peaks in Africa (North and East) and Caucasus. Data from the middle East is scanty and we are currently investigating various populations from this region to gather more information on the distribution in this area (data not shown). The presence in Europe is limited and the occurrences in both US and Asia (India and Malaysia) can be considered as the result of a recent introgression of African and/ or European haplotypes. Given the current set of data it is difficult to establish the ultimate place of origin of such mutation. However, the limited genetic diversity shown by either the Caucasus and North Africa suggest a combination of drift and founder effect (followed by rapid population expansion) in these areas.
Ferri et. al. 2008, Molecular characterisation and population genetics of the DYS458 .2 allelic variant
Notably according to the above study it is not very diverse in the Caucasus or North Africa.
According to a general study on Y-haplogroup J, immediately below, it's more diverse in Ethiopia and "South East Europe" where it arrives in Neolithic times, compared to in the Middle East and North Africa which, due to low diversity especially in North Africa, they attribute to being due to recent expansion (they said Arab expansion in the 7th Century). It's rare in "Europe" according to that study.
quote:The lower internal variance of J-M267 in the Middle East and North Africa, relative to Europe and Ethiopia, is suggestive of two different migrations. In the absence of additional binary polymorphisms allowing further informative subdivision of J-M267, the YCAII microsatellite system provides important insights. The majority of J-M267 Y chromosomes harbor the single-banded motif YCAIIa22-YCAIIb22 in the Middle East (>70%) and in North Africa (>90%), whereas this association is much less frequent in Ethiopia and only sporadically found in southern Europe.
...
According to this interpretation, the first migration, probably in Neolithic times, brought J-M267 to Ethiopia and Europe, whereas a second, more-recent migration diffused the clade harboring the microsatellite motif YCAIIa22-YCAIIb22 in the southern part of the Middle East and in North Africa.
...
These results are consistent with the proposal that this haplotype was diffused in recent time by Arabs who, mainly from the 7th century A.D., expanded to northern Africa (Nebel et al. 2002).
According to another study I'm not sure includes Ethiopia, in the Middle East, M267 (aka J1) in general is most diverse in Turkey, then Egypt. It's most common however in Arabia and North Africa, most of which appears to be due to recent expansion (usually attributed to 7th Century Arabs). The study said that in the Middle East it seemed to show evidence of a pattern of migration from the North, Southward migration.
quote:Based on binary and STR markers, the greatest degree of differentiation for J1-M267 is detected in the Levant with two distinct demographic dispersals generating its current distribution. A higher observed STR diversity of this clade among Europeans and Ethiopians in comparison to populations of North Africa points to its arrival to Ethiopia and Europe during Neolithic times with a more recent appearance in the latter. Semino et al describe a YCAIIa22-YCAIIb22 motif in the North African (>90%) and Middle Eastern (>70%) J1-M267 representatives that is less frequent in Ethiopia and Europe, postulating that the dispersal of the M267-YCAIIa22-YCAIIb22 clade occurred during the Arab expansion in the seventh century A.D.
- Cadenas et. al. 2007
However because Turkey in the study had dates which were by far the oldest, if I recall correctly even twice as old as its nearest competitor Egypt, it was said to probably have "Northern" origins in the Mid-East, but this study excludes Ethiopia where it is both much more frequent, like in the Middle East, and diverse, in SE Europe.
Check this out though, on Arabia:
quote:Around 14% of the Saudi Arabia Ychromosome pool is typical of African biogeographic ancestry, 17% arrived to the area from the East across Iran, while the remainder 69% could be considered of direct or indirect Levantine ascription. Interestingly, basal E-M96* (n=2) and J-M304* (n=3) lineages have been detected, for the first time, in the Arabian Peninsula. Coalescence time for the most prominent J1-M267 haplogroup in Saudi Arabia (11.6 ± 1.9 ky) is similar to that obtained previously for Yemen (11.3 ± 2) but significantly older that those estimated for Qatar (7.3 ± 1.8) and UAE (6.8 ± 1.5).
The thing about Arabia is it may not be as diverse there but this could be due to recent large expansions of people. And I don't like how its population is partitioned: look above, in the above literally 100% of it is said to paternally descend from elsewhere, making them half-non Arabian. I can certainly agree it's certainly mixed, but dayum if it don't seem haphazard. I mean 69% Levantine? This all I guess makes sense in the Cadenas et. al. 2007 scenario of there having been migration from the North in general in the Middle East, with the remainder 31% being 17% "Iranian" and the rest an "African" remainder, partially giving this thing the backdrop to the early Holocene Afrisan colonization of the Middle East.
In any case, by far the highest percentages of "J*" lineages have as lioness pointed out above indeed been found in the Island of Socotra, which is South of Arabia (even Yemen may only reach this lattitude at its very Southernmost end) and around Central Sudan, Ethiopia, and Northern Somalia. The various random quotes on the internet, including wikipedia, attributing J* in Socotra to this study:
In the abstract, it is said that they first colonize the place around 6k ya, during the Neolithic / beginning of the Holocene.
*And* they hardly found any African lineages (which, they really may have found ones with undetermined origins). Which would imply what both the original inhabitants of that island and carriers of J* may have looked like.[Socotra]
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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posted
All in all I'd have to place its (M267's) probable origins in East Africa or possibly just outside of Africa in the Levant, since the Levant has the overall greatest frequency of J lineages in general and has relatively great M267 diversity.
Even if J1*'s ultimate place of origin is East Africa, J* could still be Levantine, but it could still very well be either African or Arabian, and could still indicate descent (if it reaches that population in recent times) from lighter skinned people.
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness: ......"Let's also not forget that the highest frequency of the basal paternal haplogroup J* is found in the dark-skinned Caucasoids from Socotra."
So the old literature that speaks of "dark Arabs" and such is in all probability referring to people that looked that way, not to Negroid folks (the latter of whom obviously aren't native to the Middle East)." -Noah
posted
I have never heard of this group of people before, but I did say a while ago that Hg J* is found at a higher rate amongst Sudanese and the Horners.
Anyway, the Socotran are certainly an interesting group of people. I may going to visit the place once..
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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"Let's also not forget that the highest frequency of the basal paternal haplogroup J* is found in the dark-skinned Caucasoids from Socotra." So the old literature that speaks of "dark Arabs" and such is in all probability referring to people that looked that way, not to Negroid folks (the latter of whom obviously aren't native to the Middle East)." -Noah
I have read thet folks from Socrota and the Southern Arabian penininsula were orginally veddoids.
"Non-mediterranean Veddoids (Australoids) are found as minorities, increasing in number and importance as one moves eastward until they constitute the chief element in the tribes of al-Mahra: there they also speak a language of their own, different from Arabic but belonging, like it, to the Semitic language group. Isolated communities of African origin, remnants of ancient invasions or slave groups, include the Hujurs in the western part and the Sibyan in the Hadramawt."
"Veddoid, non-Mediterranean strain occurs in southern Arabia, where also are found the low-status groups called Akhdam and Sibyan. In the north are the Sulubah, known to the ancient Arabians as qayn, a low-status group regarded as being of non-Arab descent. In Oman the Zutt, a Gypsy folk, seem to be descendants of Indian emigrants to the gulf in the early 9th century, but the Balochi, whose ancestors immigrated more recently, have formed a sort of warrior tribe there. In the border regions of Oman and Yemen are the Mahra, Harasis, Qara, and others, speaking languages of the South Arabic group, and on the Musandam Peninsula are the Shihuh.
From ancient times African slaves were imported to Arabia; Saudi Arabia and the Yemens abolished slavery only in 1962. Some districts such as the oasis of Khaybar in the Hejaz and parts of the Tihamah are largely populated by black cultivators. The ports always had a large element of Africans, Asians, and others. The oil era brought many Lebanese, Egyptians, Jordanians, and Iraqis with the education and skills the Arabians lacked, and great numbers of Yemenis moved into the oil-producing states as unskilled labourers. Palestinians make up between one-fifth and one-fourth of Kuwait's population, refugees from Yemen occupy entire streets in Abu Dhabi, and so many Pakistanis, Indians, Sri Lankans, Koreans, and Filipinos have flocked to the Persian Gulf states that often they considerably outnumber the native inhabitants. By contrast, almost no Jews, long settled in western Arabia, now remain" http://www.uv.es/EBRIT/macro/macro_5000_24_6.htmlPosts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
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posted
I remember one lecture given by PhD. Wesley Muhammad. He spoke of the Veddoid as the indigenous Arabian Peninsula population.
It's also interesting to see what the original carriers of this haplo J look/ looked like. It explains so much, in historical context. As a people who migrated out of Africa.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol: I remember one lecture given by PhD. Wesley Muhammad. He spoke of the Veddoid as the indigenous Arabian Peninsula population.
It's also interesting to see what the original carries of this haplo J look/ looked like. It explains so much, in historical context. As a people who migrated out of Africa.
I don't know that the J haplotype originated with those Veddoid people. It may originate from further North. But the implication from all of this, is that during the time of the great migrations out of Africa, there was already more than one African phenotype.
Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
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quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol: I remember one lecture given by PhD. Wesley Muhammad. He spoke of the Veddoid as the indigenous Arabian Peninsula population.
It's also interesting to see what the original carries of this haplo J look/ looked like. It explains so much, in historical context. As a people who migrated out of Africa.
I don't know that the J haplotype originated with those Veddoid people. It may originate from further North. But the implication from all of this, is that during the time of the great migrations out of Africa, there was already more than one African phenotype.
I don't know, I go by the statements made here, and from what I've heard during that lecture by Dr. Wesley Muhammad.
Maybe Dana can elaborate on this?
And lioness spoke of a basal J. Perhaps she knows more. If they carry the basal, I assume that they are the original carriers. Thus far. Fact is they look very close to some Northeast African groups who carry older genes.
Placed in relation to this:
Mitochondrial DNA structure in the Arabian Peninsula
Khaled K Abu-Amero1 email, José M Larruga2 email, Vicente M Cabrera2 email and Ana M González2 email
1 Mitochondrial Research Laboratory, Department of Genetics, King Faisal Specialist Hospital and Research Center, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia
2 Department of Genetics, Faculty of Biology, University of La Laguna, Tenerife 38271, Spain
Macrohaplogroup L lineages
Quote
"Particularly, Yemen has the largest contribution of L lineages (30). So, most probably, this area was the entrance gate of a portion of these lineages in prehistoric times, which participated in the building of the primitive Arabian population."
Unquote
Viktor Černý1* et al.
Migration of Chadic speaking pastoralists within Africa based on population structure of Chad Basin and phylogeography of mitochondrial L3f haplogroup
Quote:
We use high-resolution genetic data to investigate the genetic and linguistic support for hypotheses concerning the population history in the Chad Basin. The mitochondrial L3f3 haplogroup is found almost exclusively in Chadic speaking populations and its TMRCA corresponds well with archaeological and linguistic dates of the proposed migration of Chadic speaking pastoralists from East or North East Africa to the Chad Basin.
Haplogroup L3f is defined by the coding variants
3396-4218-15514-15944del and the control region motif 16209–16519 with a TMRCA of 57,100 ± 9,400 YBP. This haplogroup diversifies into sub-haplogroups L3f1, L3f2 and L3f3. The most geographically widespread sub-haplogroup is L3f1, which is distributed across the African continent [3] and also Arabia [32,33] and has a TMRCA of 48,600 ± 11,500 YBP.
..."The youngest clade, L3f1b2, seems to be more frequent in the Middle East. L3f1a seems to be older (37,700 ± 10,000 YBP) than its sister sub-haplogroup L3f1b and is also less diversified. A few samples from Chad belong to these sub-haplogroups: two to L3f1a and one to L3f1b3."
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol: I remember one lecture given by PhD. Wesley Muhammad. He spoke of the Veddoid as the indigenous Arabian Peninsula population.
It's also interesting to see what the original carries of this haplo J look/ looked like. It explains so much, in historical context. As a people who migrated out of Africa.
I don't know that the J haplotype originated with those Veddoid people. It may originate from further North. But the implication from all of this, is that during the time of the great migrations out of Africa, there was already more than one African phenotype.
I don't know, I go by the statements made here, and from what I've heard during that lecture by Dr. Wesley Muhammad.
Maybe Dana can elaborate on this?
And lioness spoke of a basal J. Perhaps she knows more. If they carry the basal, I assume that they are the original carriers. Thus far. Fact is they look very close to some Northeast African groups who carry older genes.
Placed in relation to this:
Mitochondrial DNA structure in the Arabian Peninsula
Khaled K Abu-Amero1 email, José M Larruga2 email, Vicente M Cabrera2 email and Ana M González2 email
1 Mitochondrial Research Laboratory, Department of Genetics, King Faisal Specialist Hospital and Research Center, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia
2 Department of Genetics, Faculty of Biology, University of La Laguna, Tenerife 38271, Spain
Macrohaplogroup L lineages
Quote
"Particularly, Yemen has the largest contribution of L lineages (30). So, most probably, this area was the entrance gate of a portion of these lineages in prehistoric times, which participated in the building of the primitive Arabian population."
Unquote
Viktor Černý1* et al.
Migration of Chadic speaking pastoralists within Africa based on population structure of Chad Basin and phylogeography of mitochondrial L3f haplogroup
Quote:
We use high-resolution genetic data to investigate the genetic and linguistic support for hypotheses concerning the population history in the Chad Basin. The mitochondrial L3f3 haplogroup is found almost exclusively in Chadic speaking populations and its TMRCA corresponds well with archaeological and linguistic dates of the proposed migration of Chadic speaking pastoralists from East or North East Africa to the Chad Basin.
Haplogroup L3f is defined by the coding variants
3396-4218-15514-15944del and the control region motif 16209–16519 with a TMRCA of 57,100 ± 9,400 YBP. This haplogroup diversifies into sub-haplogroups L3f1, L3f2 and L3f3. The most geographically widespread sub-haplogroup is L3f1, which is distributed across the African continent [3] and also Arabia [32,33] and has a TMRCA of 48,600 ± 11,500 YBP.
..."The youngest clade, L3f1b2, seems to be more frequent in the Middle East. L3f1a seems to be older (37,700 ± 10,000 YBP) than its sister sub-haplogroup L3f1b and is also less diversified. A few samples from Chad belong to these sub-haplogroups: two to L3f1a and one to L3f1b3."
First off there are no "dark skinned Caucasoids". The people shown here are the result of a mixture of the Afro-Arabian Kamar branch of the Mahra Arabians original "Ethiopic" occupants of these islands and the people who named the Komoros or Comoros Islands. These dark brown fuzzy headed Ethiopic people or original Sabaic-Himyarites, mixed with people from India and Africa and later fair-skinned peoples who had come into Arabia especially in the last millenium.
The name Socotra comes from the Bani Sakun and Saksak tribes (or Kindite Arabians), known also anciently to the Greeks as the Ascitae or Skenitas Arabus. These Shahra-Mahra related and other Ethiopians are no longer there in any purity as they are in Hadramaut, Somalia and Oman.
There are no pure type in Socotra any more, they are a mixture of many populations as is modern Arabia and North Africa in general making dna analysis of modern populations rather pointless or irrelevant.
Mahra in Arabia
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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posted
Don't get you guys. Cite a paper then show a picture. Can't resist, huh? Love those pics. Simple minds. What's the point of the pic again. . . .?
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: sombody in anicent Egypt forum mentioned a Hamitic-centric website forum,
"Let's also not forget that the highest frequency of the basal paternal haplogroup J* is found in the dark-skinned Caucasoids from Socotra." So the old literature that speaks of "dark Arabs" and such is in all probability referring to people that looked that way, not to Negroid folks (the latter of whom obviously aren't native to the Middle East)." -Noah
posted
This topic was discussed several times before by one poster in here (I forgot who) as well as the moderator Henu (Yom) who is Ethiopian. Again, that J1 originated either in or close to Africa is no surprise. Euronuts like Malcontent love to define the Arabian-Palestine region as 'Eurasian' even though it is right next to Africa and its geology is continuous to Africa as well as contiguous with it. Keita himself stated that it is a Eurocentric ploy to label such lineages and the populations they entail as automatically 'Eurasian' when they derive so close to Africa.
Yemenis
As for the island of Socotra, while its indigenous population was described as 'Hamitic', it was settled by Indians and others during Medieval Islamic times. This explains why some Socotrans look Indian as per Lyinass's picture. Even the very name 'Socotra' is an Indian word for 'paradise'.
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