'Of mixed-ancestry, Ptolemy XII's baby daughter carried on her tiny shoulders the hopes and expectations of her diverse countrymen. Her life would be devoted to maintaining their independence; her death would signal the end of pharaonic Egypt. Her name was Cleopatra.'(p490)
Posts: 838 | From: London | Registered: Oct 2011
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Skull of Cleopatra's sister - Murdered sister of Cleopatra found-
A 2009 news article reveals details about Arsinoe, the sister Cleopatra and Mark Anthony had murdered as a potential rival.
QUOTE: "Caroline Wilkinson, a forensic anthropologist, reconstructed the missing skull based on measurements taken in the 1920s. Using computer technology it was possible to create a facial impression of what Arsinöe might have looked like.
BBC NEWS ARTICLE- 2009 - skeleton of Cleopatra's sister In BBC news article, Austrian scientists say skeleton of Cleopatra's sister was African.
QUOTE: "Elizabeth Taylor's European Cleopatra persists in the public imagination Cleopatra, the last Egyptian Pharaoh, renowned for her beauty, was part African, says a BBC team which believes it has found her sister's tomb. Queen Cleopatra was a descendant of Ptolemy, the Macedonian general who ruled Egypt after Alexander the Great. But remains of the queen's sister Princess Arsinoe, found in Ephesus, Turkey, indicate that her mother had an "African" skeleton.
Experts have described the results as "a real sensation."
The discovery was made by Hilke Thuer of the Austrian Academy of Sciences.
"It is unique in the life of an archaeologist to find the tomb and the skeleton of a member of Ptolemaic dynasty," she said.. "That Arsinoe had an African mother is a real sensation which leads to a new insight on Cleopatra's family and the relationship of the sisters Cleopatra and Arsinoe."
'The notion of "mixed" ancestry is also applicable to Cleopatra's other sister as the scholar below notes.'
There. Fixed it for you.
It's suggested that either
Cleopatra and Arsinoe had the same mother Cleopatra's mother and grandmother were Egyptian
Posts: 838 | From: London | Registered: Oct 2011
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posted
@lioness note thread title has the word "race" in it.
Your point being?
'Mixed-race' is the prevailing term used in the UK to describe someone of mixed origins.
Posts: 838 | From: London | Registered: Oct 2011
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quote:Originally posted by claus3600: @lioness note thread title has the word "race" in it.
Your point being?
'Mixed-race' is the prevailing term used in the UK to describe someone of mixed origins.
Most people at Egyptsearch except for Clyde and Perhaps Mike don't believe in race or any form of the word such as "mixed-race" and are against the use of such terminology especailly in biological contexts
My guidelines for writing a problem free thread on ES is that you replace ES unacceptable words with ES acceptable ones.
So a proper revision of the title would be
Toby Wilkinson-Cleopatra had non-African admixture.
(and brother Toby didn't use the word race he said "mixed-ancestry")
Write freely in a rough draft. Then make the following replacements if necessary before you post and you will have no problems:
race = ancestry/phenotype/genotype Negroid= Black/African Caucasian = White/Euopean Asian = Asian
then proceed and you will have no problems
-unless you want them
Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Most people at Egyptsearch except for Clyde and Perhaps Mike don't believe in race or any form of the word such as "mixed-race" and are against the use of such terminology especailly in biological contexts
I don't care.
You refer to Toby Wilkinson as 'brother Toby'...I don't know what you're trying to imply but Toby Wilkinson is white. Did you read the recent post on his Rise and Fall of Ancient Egypt, which generated some concerned commentary surrounding his work and world view.
Anyway, on the issue of racial categories it's surprising that you should be so fastidiousness.
Posts: 838 | From: London | Registered: Oct 2011
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Most people at Egyptsearch except for Clyde and perhaps Mike don't believe in race or any form of the word such as "mixed-race" and are against the use of such terminology especailly in biological contexts
I don't care. (eyes watery)
You refer to Toby Wilkinson as 'brother Toby'...I don't know what you're trying to imply but Toby Wilkinson is white. Did you read the recent post on his Rise and Fall of Ancient Egypt, which generated some concerned commentary surrounding his work and world view.
Anyway, on the issue of racial categories it's surprising that you should be so fastidiousness.
I'm just trying to warn yo ass.
Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
^^^^^ This bitch will whine about Egyptians and other Africans being mixed but don't let someone talk about her precious Europeans, on no Cleopatra was a pure Greek...
Dumb Bitch..
The notion of "mixed" ancestry is more applicable to Cleopatra's other sister as the scholar below notes.
If Arsinoe was Mixed Im sure Cleo was Mixed as well.
Black blood in the Ptolomies, Black Roman Emperor Septimus Severus. Makes you wonder how white washed history is.
We already know the Greeks are fond of Africans if you know what I mean.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
note thread title has the word "race" in it
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: [QB] ^^^^^ This bitch will whine about Egyptians and other Africans being mixed but don't let someone talk about her precious Europeans, on no Cleopatra was a pure Greek...
The Greeks were probably as mixed as the Egyptians.
(by the way what are these things being mixed? jari, you are a no race advocate, tell us)
Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
^^^^ You are stupid. You have no fathom of a clue about the very basics of topics you discuss. Do you know what race is in a biological sense and hence why it is rejected by mainstream geneticists and biologists you borderline retarded dingbat. If you had taken even the basics of biology or anthropology you would be informed on these things.
I can't help the Ignorant. Enough of you back to the thread...
BTW, Nowhere in the above do advocate race. Nice Try.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: ^^^^ You are stupid. You have no fathom of a clue about the very basics of topics you discuss. Do you know what race is in a biological sense and hence why it is rejected by mainstream geneticists and biologists you borderline retarded dingbat. If you had taken even the basics of biology or anthropology you would be informed on these things.
I can't help the Ignorant. Enough of you back to the thread...
BTW, Nowhere in the above do I advocate race. Nice Try.
below, Jari using racial teminology in a reply to this race thread. Will the hypocrisy ever end?
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
If Arsinoe was Mixed Im sure Cleo was Mixed as well....
Black blood in the Ptolomies, Black Roman Emperor Septimus Severus. Makes you wonder how white washed history is....
"Black blood" lol
this bitch sounds like Egmond
Thread premise: was Cleopatra of mixed race?
jari yes answer:" If Arsinoe was Mixed Im sure Cleo was Mixed as well"
two points, lioness
Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Cleopatra, the last Egyptian Pharaoh, renowned for her beauty, was part African, says a BBC team which believes it has found her sister's tomb.
Queen Cleopatra was a descendant of Ptolemy, the Macedonian general who ruled Egypt after Alexander the Great.
But remains of the queen's sister Princess Arsinoe, found in Ephesus, Turkey, indicate that her mother had an "African" skeleton.
Experts have described the results as "a real sensation."
The discovery was made by Hilke Thuer of the Austrian Academy of Sciences.
"It is unique in the life of an archaeologist to find the tomb and the skeleton of a member of Ptolemaic dynasty," she said.
“ They were real people and not the semi-mythical figures portrayed by Richard Burton and Elizabeth Taylor ”
"That Arsinoe had an African mother is a real sensation which leads to a new insight on Cleopatra's family and the relationship of the sisters Cleopatra and Arsinoe."
They lived at a turbulent time when the Roman empire was extending its power across the Mediterranean.
Cleopatra established alliances with the Roman leader Julius Caesar and, after his assassination, with his political supporter, General Mark Antony, to whom she was married.
"Cleopatra, Julius Caesar, Mark Antony - they are all iconic figures from history," said archaeologist Neil Oliver who presents the BBC documentary.
"It's almost impossible to remember they were real people and not the semi-mythical figures portrayed by Richard Burton and Elizabeth Taylor. It was like a splash of cold water in the face to be confronted by them as human beings, " he continued.
"When I stood in the lab and handled the bones of Cleopatra's blood sister - knowing that in her lifetime she touched Cleopatra and perhaps Julius Caesar and Mark Antony as well - I felt the hairs go up on the back of my neck."
"Suddenly these giant figures from history were flesh and blood," said archaeologist Neil Oliver.
There was plenty of sibling rivalry between Princess Arsinoe and her powerful sister Cleopatra - many believe the queen ordered Mark Antony to murder her sister.
The film examines the life of Cleopatra - who had an affair with Julius Caesar - including her murderous intentions towards Arsinoe.
Cleopatra:Portrait of a Killer is on BBC One at 9pm on 23 March 2009.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: ^^^^^ This bitch will whine about Egyptians and other Africans being mixed but don't let someone talk about her precious Europeans, on no Cleopatra was a pure Greek...
Dumb Bitch..
The notion of "mixed" ancestry is more applicable to Cleopatra's other sister as the scholar below notes.
If Arsinoe was Mixed Im sure Cleo was Mixed as well.
Black blood in the Ptolomies, Black Roman Emperor Septimus Severus. Makes you wonder how white washed history is.
We already know the Greeks are fond of Africans if you know what I mean.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
note thread title has the word "race" in it
Yes, the same can be applied to them...lol
Paragroup E-M78 represents 74.5% of haplogroup E*, the highest frequencies observed in Masalit and Fur populations.
The downstreams.
Albania 27.5% Greece 27% Serbia 24% Macedonia 23% Cyprus 20% Bulgaria 16% Bosnia-Herzegovina 14.5% Portugal 12.5% Italy 11% Turkey 11% Austria 9% Belarus 9% Slovakia 9% Switzerland 9% Ukraine 8% France 7% Croatia 6% Czech Republic 6% Romania 6% Spain 6% Germany 5.5% Netherlands 4.5% Belgium 4% Poland 3.5% Slovenia 3% Denmark 2.5% Estonia 2.5% Russia 2.5% England 2% Ireland 2% Wales 2% Scotland 1.5% Finland 1% Lithuania 1% Norway 1% Sweden 1% Latvia 0.5% Iceland 0%
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: [QB] ^^^^^ This bitch will whine about Egyptians and other Africans being mixed but don't let someone talk about her precious Europeans, on no Cleopatra was a pure Greek...
The Greeks were probably as mixed as the Egyptians.
(by the way what are these things being mixed? jari, you are a no race advocate, tell us)
This bust looks Asian, are you sure you're right?
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
Gasp!! How unexpected!! You know, these scholars really are funny sometimes. The Ptolemies married a royal egyptian female (think it was cleopatra's grandma) to legitimate their claim to the throne. Now, if AE's are africans then why is it a surprise that cleo and her sis are indicated to be part african based on skeleton? Smh. If they weren't so busy denying AE's africanness then this wouldn't be surprising. If the king of thailand conquered the UK and married in the family, wouldn't one expect it to be indicated that the descendants are part european despite the new royal line being founded by a thai and bearing a thai name? Smh.
Posts: 214 | Registered: Oct 2011
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posted
You made many mistakes, several infact but for your sake I will only point out 3.
1) You avoided my inquiry about what race is defined as biologically, and Hence why it is rejected in Modern Science.
2)You failed to show where I endorsed race. This mistake is due to your Ignorance on the first mistake (definition of race in a biological sense,) In other words you are seeing what is not there.
3)You tried to out smart and intellectual superior, and have failed miserably.
Come back when you figure it out, I will be happy to slap you down some more...
Now back your sloppy lowbrow ranting slave..
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: ^^^^ You are stupid. You have no fathom of a clue about the very basics of topics you discuss. Do you know what race is in a biological sense and hence why it is rejected by mainstream geneticists and biologists you borderline retarded dingbat. If you had taken even the basics of biology or anthropology you would be informed on these things.
I can't help the Ignorant. Enough of you back to the thread...
BTW, Nowhere in the above do I advocate race. Nice Try.
below, Jari using racial teminology in a reply to this race thread. Will the hypocrisy ever end?
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
If Arsinoe was Mixed Im sure Cleo was Mixed as well....
Black blood in the Ptolomies, Black Roman Emperor Septimus Severus. Makes you wonder how white washed history is....
"Black blood" lol
this bitch sounds like Egmond
Thread premise: was Cleopatra of mixed race?
jari yes answer:" If Arsinoe was Mixed Im sure Cleo was Mixed as well"
two points, lioness
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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(Half Tunisian) Italian nobleman Alessandro de' Medici.
What's in a nose, trick?!
quote:The Greeks were probably as mixed as the Egyptians.
Jari is right! You got your lying white ass busted as usual! It's okay to mix up the Egyptians but not your ancient 'Classical' ancestors! LOLPosts: 26243 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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[QUOTE]The Greeks were probably as mixed as the Egyptians.
Jari is right! You got your lying white ass busted as usual! It's okay to mix up the Egyptians but not your ancient 'Classical' ancestors! LOL
your stupidity is incredible. I made a statement that both the Egyptians and Greeks were mixed and in your mind I am saying that the Greeks were not mixed. These are the types of lies you try to build.
Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
^ I take it then that to you, if the Greeks are mixed then so has to be the Egyptians. Well please elaborate who the Egyptians are mixed with.
Posts: 26243 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
Was Cleopatra's mother African American? No. So its silly to bring them up. There are Africans who ARE pure and maybe Cleopatra's mother was.
I am African American and I found out that I have NO white or Indian ancestry in my tree. I am 100% Black. So there are AAs like me who are FULLY Black
Posts: 103 | From: America | Registered: Nov 2008
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posted
^ What was the point of you asking whether Cleopatra's mother was fully African?
My point is that most AAs, indeed most black people in the diaspora, have European/Amerindian admixture, yet we are still refer to ourselves as black. That same rule should be applied to mixed Africans.
It's irrelevant as to whether Cleopatra's mother was fully African or not; she would still be deemed black, just as a mixed-race Obama is deemed to be America's first black president.
Posts: 838 | From: London | Registered: Oct 2011
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posted
Claus3600 She was born in an African country practice an African culture and religion, of African ancestry she is indeed African,it is very recently that some Africans and folks of the diaspora,started ,adopting Eurocentric pathology about full,mixed or whatever,culture and family relatedness was how we generally view each other not,full,fully, half full,quarter full or any such nonsense.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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posted
Is it a insult nowadays to ask if someone is fully black? I am so sick of assholes on the internet getting their panties all up in the bunch if you ask if someone is full black/not mixed. you all act like its a fuckin curse to refer to some individuals as being fully black like its a bad thing.
quote:My point is that most AAs, indeed most black people in the diaspora, have European/Amerindian admixture, yet we are still refer to ourselves as black. That same rule should be applied to mixed Africans.
are african americans THE STANDARD for blackness around the world or something? what does AA's have to do with Cleopatra's mother?? NOTHING. besides the one drop rule was not even created by AAs, it was made by a white man during slavery. I don't know why you all still use that racist standard like its a good thing
Posts: 103 | From: America | Registered: Nov 2008
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posted
was cleopatra's mother biracial or fully black? why is that such a hard question to answer?
Posts: 103 | From: America | Registered: Nov 2008
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posted
^ It's certainly not a curse to be 'fully' black. No one has said this. This says more about your own rancid, deliberate, wilful, slimey, trollish misinterpretation.
I don't think anyone knows whether Cleopatra's mother was fully black. However, we do know that Arsinoe, Cleopatra's sister/half-sister was mixed race.
Again, either way, it's a moot point. Even if the mother was 'biracial' or fully black, Cleopatra would have been of mixed ancestry.
Less obfuscation please.
Posts: 838 | From: London | Registered: Oct 2011
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quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: Claus3600 She was born in an African country practice an African culture and religion, of African ancestry she is indeed African,it is very recently that some Africans and folks of the diaspora,started ,adopting Eurocentric pathology about full,mixed or whatever,culture and family relatedness was how we generally view each other not,full,fully, half full,quarter full or any such nonsense.
Agree. Some people systematically seek out such information, as if it really matters what her exact percentage of African ancestry is.
This information is another slap in Bob Briers face. He talked down on his African American students and ruled African ancestry for Cleo simply because she was descended from a line of Greek rulers.
Not specifically directed at Brada, as he has already seen this, but, if others are interested, watch my youtube video presentation, wherein I address Bob Brier's claims, including some of his remarks on his African American students:
posted
Black is a social classification defined by having a certain degree amount of African ancestry. You cannot be "part" black. You either have the right amount and are black or you don't and aren't black. The Greeks themselves are not even pure Euros and lots of their ancestry can be traced back to Africa. Even if Cleopatra were fully Greek she would have been part African and Asian. So say Cleo's mom wasn't fully African... well the Greeks aren't fully Euro. Her mom doesn't need to be fully black for Cleo to have a lot of African lineage.
Oh yea I also watched the vid. I thought it was nice. I think only thing I would've added was that paintings of the skin also had symbolic religious meanings. So you can't say Egyptians were all red skinned in real life.
Posts: 26 | Registered: Dec 2011
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quote:I think only thing I would've added was that paintings of the skin also had symbolic religious meanings. So you can't say Egyptians were all red skinned in real life.
Yes, that is a very important observation one cannot stress enough (a point I've actually been making quite often here on this board). Did you see that ''cutaneal analysis'' chapter in that slide with Akhenaton? I was going to address that part in that chapter, but I've been way too busy. Back then I had some new, valuable information I wanted to share on that subject, and now I have accumulated even more. I want to share it in a thread sometime, but now is not the time.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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It's irrelevant as to whether Cleopatra's mother was fully African or not; she would still be deemed black, just as a mixed-race Obama is deemed to be America's first black president. [/QB]
correct to be truthful Barack is America's first half African President
quote:I think only thing I would've added was that paintings of the skin also had symbolic religious meanings. So you can't say Egyptians were all red skinned in real life.
Yes, that is a very important observation one cannot stress enough (a point I've actually been making quite often here on this board). Did you see that ''cutaneal analysis'' chapter in that slide with Akhenaton? I was going to address that part in that chapter, but I've been way too busy. Back then I had some new, valuable information I wanted to share on that subject, and now I have accumulated even more. I want to share it in a thread sometime, but now is not the time.
Why not? I'm eager to hear about it.
Posts: 7069 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
Unless you are some kinda birther he is fully an American president,he maybe 1/2 blk if you want,but he followed the rules governing who is blk in the US.Of A and self Id as Black! not half, quarter (pounder with cheeze) or otha but Blk..he still is a disappointment anyway.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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He may well be half African and half European, however, socially, he is black. If he wasn't famous and was walking down the street, he would be identified as black.
Which is one reason I don't understand your insistence on a multi-racial Egypt, or the argument that they were 'caucasoid', whatever that is. As Lefkowitz is cited as saying, following the one drop rule, the Egyptians would have been black. Africans of the Americas aren't deemed 'caucasoid' so the term and its application to the Kemetians , who anyway predominantly weren't mixed-race, seems a little too ideologically driven.
Posts: 838 | From: London | Registered: Oct 2011
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posted
Accepting the one drop rule is accepting colonial labels forced upon Blacks. I call it like I see it. An even bigger fallacy would involve applying this modern concept to ancient Egyptians. Given the fact that Egypt was for the most part, African anyways there's no need to appeal to any "one drop" rule, unless one drop of asiatic blood somehow made them non-African.
As for Cleo, if she was mixed she was mixed. Call it like it is.
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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posted
@sundjata 'Accepting the one drop rule is accepting colonial labels forced upon Blacks.'
True. But it's instructive to see conservative academia and racists squirm and contort themselves in opposition to it.
'An even bigger fallacy would involve applying this modern concept to ancient Egyptians.'
But then is there not an argument to be made that applying any sort of racial categorization to the Ancient populations is fallacious? The racial categorizations that we use are the racial categorizations that we use. The modern notions of black, black/mixed or white are for better or worse, the ones that we've been lumbered with by history.
Posts: 838 | From: London | Registered: Oct 2011
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quote:Originally posted by Sundjata: Accepting the one drop rule is accepting colonial labels forced upon Blacks.
Black is a colonial label forced upon blacks. And who does serve to change standards for entry into the black community by reducing the applicant pool. White Eurocentrics.
quote: I call it like I see it. An even bigger fallacy would involve applying this modern concept to ancient Egyptians. Given the fact that Egypt was for the most part, African anyways there's no need to appeal to any "one drop" rule, unless one drop of asiatic blood somehow made them non-African.
Yes but then we get into the "all people aren't African" garbage. A great point in the video was raised that Italians and Greeks are never questioned in a similar light despite the fact they have a lot of Asian and African lineages.
quote:As for Cleo, if she was mixed she was mixed. Call it like it is.
Yea but like I said, blacks can be mixed. Being fully African (or even "sub saharan" Africa)is not the same as being fully black.
Posts: 26 | Registered: Dec 2011
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posted
The term ''Blacks'' in modern Western culture includes mixed people. It's not logically sound, but it doesn't need to be. One of the reasons why it is said to be a social construct.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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posted
^The problem with social constructs is that they're subjective, meaning the term "Blacks" and what it "includes" is never set in stone. Just look up the word "Mulatto". All mixed people clearly aren't considered Black and some can pass for "white", Hispanic, or "other". There was a segment on CNN recently, I believe from the show "Black in America", which demonstrated this perfectly, so the two comments above are obviously not true, at least in any objective sense. A lot of it has to do with how one self-identifies as well. Indeed, Black is a term that is too easy to deconstruct which is why practical usage imo is warranted, unless one chooses to self-identify as Black, then of course I won't deny that right.
Imposing labels on people however, doesn't help and only makes Black people look desperate. For example, when people got offended that Mariah Carey said that she wasn't Black or when Tiger Woods insisted that he wasn't Black because he didn't want to undermine his mother's contribution to his gene-pool.
I mean, why get offended? If they say they aren't Black they aren't Black. It ain't like it was Malcolm X claiming he wasn't Black because of his white grandfather. Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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