quote:Originally posted by the lioness: [QUOTE]Originally posted by dana marniche: [qb]
Ummm picture spamming isn't going to change what the original Arabians, Tuareg and other Moors looked like before mixing with non-African slaves from you know where.
BTW - I wish you would stop posting people that are exactly the color of myself and my family and trying to convince me that black Americans should not be considered black and look Italian.
I hear some Africans told Richard Pryor that when he visited Africa.
Hmmm....Wonder if Richie had Tuareg dna like Tupac and Morgan Freeman. I see a little Turkish here too - not much Italian though. Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by GOMTUU: Hey Doug the lyinggrass has no knowledge whatsoever what she is talking about. She has no reply to Dana"s post, challenging Euronuts: Please find me a single phrase in any source before the 15th century referring to a fair-skinned Berber tribe. That is what I am looking for. First of you Euronuts to find it receives all the glory any Aryan could ever need. [Roll Eyes]. lyinghynie,is Bozo the clown the wackiest clown in town.
Ancient sources were already provided on Caucasoid Libyans (North Africans). They are described as blonde or red haired, and fair skinned. Obviously not Negroid
Posts: 1575 | From: - | Registered: May 2011
| IP: Logged |
posted
^ And what pray-tell sources are these?? You have yet to provide such evidence as Dana's arugment still stands.
quote:Originally posted by GOMTUU: Hey Doug the lyinggrass has no knowledge whatsoever what she is talking about. She has no reply to Dana"s post, challenging Euronuts: Please find me a single phrase in any source before the 15th century referring to a fair-skinned Berber tribe. That is what I am looking for. First of you Euronuts to find it receives all the glory any Aryan could ever need. [Roll Eyes]. lyinghynie,is Bozo the clown the wackiest clown in town.
Exactly!
quote:Originally posted by the lyinass:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ More lyinass b.s. Obviously the worm is wriggling like crazy.
in other words you have no argument so you'll make a completely useless cheerleading post hoping someone official will help you and validate your pom pom routine.
Actually. It's more like I'm TIRED of refuting your same arguments which you make OVER AND OVER AND OVER again!
How many times can a lyinass like you get debunked?! But if you want an argument (beatdown) then so be it!
quote:you stupid bitch the etymology of a word does not define it's contextual use historically.
LMAO YOU are the stupid bitch! Because obviously it does! Why does the word including its etymology exist to begin with if it wasn't used or applied in such a way?! The word 'Moor' was used historically to describe blacks NOT Muslims or 'brown' or 'off-white' Muslims or peoples. It was only recently that the word became a catchphrase for all Muslims of North Africa but it doesn't change the HISTORICAL FACT that it was used to describe black people in general, hence the very etymology!
quote:If the word "Moor" means "black" and the following brown person is black:
then this no less dark person is also black:
^^^^ Our modern American racial concepts are irrelevant, to ancient writers both of the above people would be called "black"
LMAOH Sorry worm, but the European man and the Tuareg man do NOT have the same complexion. The Tuareg man is slightly darker, and his ancestors historically were even darker still and no amount of tanning by the Euro can come close to the complexions of his ancestors let alone confuse him for one of them! LOL
quote:It's stupid to use the word "Moor" to mean any brown skinned person or stupid to use it to mean any brown skinned person born in Africa.
But the word does not mean "brown" but BLACK.
quote:The term "Moor" has a historical and cultural context which has come to be associated with Muslims of North Africa with origins in what is now part of Northern Algeria and a part of northern Morocco, people who invaded Iberia. St. Maurice was supposedly an Egyptian and has no shown association with the Muslim invaders or Moorish culture and he was a Christian who died trying to protect Christians at a time when the Moors were thoroughly Muslim.
Which again goes back to the point of how the word was historically and originally used, thus its very etymology, dummy!! St. Maurice was Christian, but what else did he have in common with the invaders of Iberia other than being natives of the same continent?!
quote:The term "Moor" has a historical and cultural context. It is stupid take it out of context, be entirely literal and say it means "black". If you want to be an idiot and play that sort of word game the majority of Africans are brown not literally black and a number of people who are not Africans from places like the Middle East and India even South East Asians can be as dark as indigenous Africans. What are they all Moors now because "Moor" means "black"? fools.
LOL You're right that it's stupid to take it out of context which is exactly what YOU'RE doing, stupid! Of course the majority of Africans are 'brown' as nobody is literally black, but the 'browness' of Africans does approach that color. The same way Europeans aren't literally 'white' but approach that color, yet this hasn't stopped them from calling themselves 'white'!! As for other black peoples of the world, sorry but the only black peoples to enter Europe during the Middle Ages were peoples from Africa and the Middle East NOT India and Oceania.
quote:Also it is stupid to say "Moor" means "any Black African"
The term "Moor" should be affiliated with the historical context the Moorish culture of ancient Mauretania, Numidia and Al-Andalus and the various indigenous and immigrant populations that comprise the loosely termed Moors and Berbers. People in these regions who are of exclusively indigenous African should not be called by these European terms "Moor" and "Berber" they should be called by their local African tribal names. Although many of the Moors were African and there is an African component to Arabians the Moors were ultimately led by Arabian Muslims not Africans. Look at the earlier art, prior to the 14th cent depicting Crusaders in conflict with Moors. Were all the Moors pitch black, or all very dark? No that came later when Europeans dumbed down the term Moor to mean any African and stereotyped Moors, Africans in general as being exclusively pitch black. This begins with Christanized converts and former Muslims who became employees of the white Holy Romans and culminates in the "blackamoor", a cute charaicature of a defeated Islam with it's balls cut off and "exotic" black skin If this is the definition you want then you might as well say a Tanzanian is a Moor and that any culture in Africa is "Moorish"
enough word games
Again, the only one playing games is YOU, bitch! LOL Again, whether it be the Arab tribes of Hejaz or the Sanhaja Berbers, or even St. Maurice of Thebes, what did all these people have in common, trick?! It's not hard or difficult at all!
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by GOMTUU: Hey Doug the lyinggrass has no knowledge whatsoever what she is talking about. She has no reply to Dana"s post, challenging Euronuts: Please find me a single phrase in any source before the 15th century referring to a fair-skinned Berber tribe. That is what I am looking for. First of you Euronuts to find it receives all the glory any Aryan could ever need. [Roll Eyes]. lyinghynie,is Bozo the clown the wackiest clown in town.
Ancient sources were already provided on Caucasoid Libyans (North Africans). They are described as blonde or red haired, and fair skinned. Obviously not Negroid
Yes and ancient sources all call them Scythians in Libya not Mauri or Berbers. Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
Hesiod (c. 700BC) racially distinguishes between the Ethiopians (''black skins'') of Africa and the Libyans, the latter are not clustered in the ''black skin'' division.
Source: Catalogues of Women, Fragment 40a, Oxyrhynchus Papyri 1358.
The Periplus of Pseudo-Scylax (4th century BC) describes blonde haired (xanthe) Libyans:
''And there live around it all the Gyzantes Libyes, a community, and a city beyond (the lake) towards the sun’s setting; for all these Gyzantes Libyes are said to be all blonde-haired and very beautiful.''
Source: Geographi Graeci Minores, Vol. 1, p. 88, Col. B. (Note: You can find the Periplus online).
The ancient Libyan-Greek poet Callimachus in the 3rd century BC described yellow haired Libyan women (Hymn II to Apollo, 85) :
‘‘Greatly, indeed, did Phoibos rejoice as the belted warriors of Enyo danced with the yellow-haired Libyan women, when the appointed season of the Karneian feast came round’’
Source: Callimachus, Hymns and Epigrams, Loeb Classical Library Vol. 129. London: William Heinemann, 1921.
Pausanias (i. 14. 6) also notes that the Libyan Gods are blue eyed.
Posts: 1575 | From: - | Registered: May 2011
| IP: Logged |
posted
Hah! This crap has been refuted long ago from writings of Ibn Battuta himself of Berber orgin.
And Black Tuaregs are due to recent admixture as they migrated southward.
There is physical evidence of non negroide people in North African going back many of thousands of years.
"Elena A. A. Garcea, an archaeologist at the University of Cassino in Italy, identified ceramics with wavy lines and zigzag patterns as Kiffian, a culture associated with northern Africa. Pots bearing a pointillistic pattern were linked to the Tenerians, a people named for the Ténéré Desert, a stretch of the Sahara known to Tuareg nomads as a “desert within a desert.”
Christopher M. Stojanowski, an archaeologist at Arizona State University, said the two cultures were “biologically distinct groups.” The bones and teeth showed that in contrast to the robust Kiffians, the Tenerians were typically short and lean and apparently led less rigorous lives. Perhaps, Dr. Stojanowski said, they had developed more advanced hunting technologies for taking smaller fish and game.
The shapes of the Tenerian skulls are puzzling, researchers said, because they resemble those of Mediterranean people, not other groups from the southern Sahara." www.nytimes.com/2008/08/15/science/15sahara.html
-------------------- In the vast pasture of life you're bound to step in some truth. Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
| IP: Logged |
posted
" The Negro Law of South Carolina Collected and Digested by JOHN BELTON O'NEALL
One of the Judges of the Courts of Law and Errors of the said State Under a resolution of the State Agricultural Society of South Carolina
Read before them at their September semi-annual meeting, 1848 at Spartanburg Court House - by them directed to be submitted to the Governor, with a Request that he would lay it before the Legislature, at its approaching Session. November, 1848, and by him ordered to be Published for the information of the Members Columbia, Printed by John G. Bowman, 1848 contributed by Edith Greisser Chapter One The Status of the Negro, his Rights and Disabilities
P. L. 163 Stat. 397
SECTION I The Act of 1740, section I, declares all Negroes and Indians (Free Indians in amity with this Government, Negroes, mulattoes and mestizoes, who are now free excepted) to be slaves — the offspring to follow the condition of the mother; and that such slaves are chattels personal. The State vs Harden (note) 2 Speer's, 155 Nelson vs Whetmore, 1 Rich'n 324
SECTION 2 Under the provision it has been uniformly held, that color is prima facie evidence, that the party bearing the color of the Negro, mulatto or mestizo, is a slave; but the same prima facie result does not follow from the Indian color. Miller vs Dawson & Brown, Dudley's Rep. 174 State vs Belmont, decided in Charleston, Jan. 1848 P. L. 164 7 Stat. 398
SECTION 3 Indians and the descendants of Indians are regarded as free Indians, in amity with this government until the contrary be shown. In the second proviso of Section I of the Act of 1740, it is declared that "Every Negro, Indian, mulatto and mestizo is a slave unless the contrary can be made to appear" - yet in the same it is immediately thereafter provided-"The In dians in amity with this government, excepted, in which the burden of proof shall lie on the defendant" that is, on the person claiming the Indian plaintiff to bea slave. This latter clause of the proviso is now regarded as furnishing the rule. The race of slave Indians or of Indians not in amity to this government (The State) is extinct and hence the previous part of the proviso has no application. Gliddon's Egypt Exparte Ferrett and others, I Con. Rep. by Mill 194-5
SECTION 4 The term Negro is confined to slave Africans (The ancient Berbers) and their descendants. It does not embrace the free inhabitants of Africa, such as the Egyptians, Moors, or the Negro Asiatics, such as Lascars.
The State vs Scott, I Bail 273. State vs Hayes, 1 Bail, 276 The State vs Scott, I Bail, 274
SECTION 5 Mulatto is the issue of the white and a Negro."
This is an American legal document pointing out the Negro was called "the Berber" not only by the Portuguese and Arab but by the Americans.
-------------------- D. Reynolds-Marniche Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: Hah! This crap has been refuted long ago from writings of Ibn Battuta himself of Berber orgin.
And Black Tuaregs are due to recent admixture as they migrated southward.
There is physical evidence of non negroide people in North African going back many of thousands of years.
"Elena A. A. Garcea, an archaeologist at the University of Cassino in Italy, identified ceramics with wavy lines and zigzag patterns as Kiffian, a culture associated with northern Africa. Pots bearing a pointillistic pattern were linked to the Tenerians, a people named for the Ténéré Desert, a stretch of the Sahara known to Tuareg nomads as a “desert within a desert.”
Christopher M. Stojanowski, an archaeologist at Arizona State University, said the two cultures were “biologically distinct groups.” The bones and teeth showed that in contrast to the robust Kiffians, the Tenerians were typically short and lean and apparently led less rigorous lives. Perhaps, Dr. Stojanowski said, they had developed more advanced hunting technologies for taking smaller fish and game.
The shapes of the Tenerian skulls are puzzling, researchers said, because they resemble those of Mediterranean people, not other groups from the southern Sahara." www.nytimes.com/2008/08/15/science/15sahara.html
Why don't you post the photo of Ibn Battuta that looks Central Asian Melchior.
BTW - which Berber tribe was him from. Then we'll know what he looked like. Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: Hah! This crap has been refuted long ago from writings of Ibn Battuta himself of Berber orgin.
And Black Tuaregs are due to recent admixture as they migrated southward.
There is physical evidence of non negroide people in North African going back many of thousands of years.
"Elena A. A. Garcea, an archaeologist at the University of Cassino in Italy, identified ceramics with wavy lines and zigzag patterns as Kiffian, a culture associated with northern Africa. Pots bearing a pointillistic pattern were linked to the Tenerians, a people named for the Ténéré Desert, a stretch of the Sahara known to Tuareg nomads as a “desert within a desert.”
Christopher M. Stojanowski, an archaeologist at Arizona State University, said the two cultures were “biologically distinct groups.” The bones and teeth showed that in contrast to the robust Kiffians, the Tenerians were typically short and lean and apparently led less rigorous lives. Perhaps, Dr. Stojanowski said, they had developed more advanced hunting technologies for taking smaller fish and game.
The shapes of the Tenerian skulls are puzzling, researchers said, because they resemble those of Mediterranean people, not other groups from the southern Sahara." www.nytimes.com/2008/08/15/science/15sahara.html
By Mediterranean they mean Badarian dimwit. They are not talking about blockheaded Europeans in the southern Sahara.
NY Times journalists are not always familiar with the concept of a "Mediterranean race" in anthropological usage it has nothing to do with modern brachycranic hairsute Europeans and the related Levant Eurasians.
That is why u don't see them represented in the southern Sahara or hardly even in the Mediterranean for that matter at least not until after the Early Bronze Age.
Be proud of your own kind. Only the ancestors of blacks arose and thrived in desert like conditions.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Anglo_Pyramidologist: ^ Nope.
Hesiod (c. 700BC) racially distinguishes between the Ethiopians (''black skins'') of Africa and the Libyans, the latter are not clustered in the ''black skin'' division.
Source: Catalogues of Women, Fragment 40a, Oxyrhynchus Papyri 1358.
The Periplus of Pseudo-Scylax (4th century BC) describes blonde haired (xanthe) Libyans:
''And there live around it all the Gyzantes Libyes, a community, and a city beyond (the lake) towards the sun’s setting; for all these Gyzantes Libyes are said to be all blonde-haired and very beautiful.''
Source: Geographi Graeci Minores, Vol. 1, p. 88, Col. B. (Note: You can find the Periplus online).
The ancient Libyan-Greek poet Callimachus in the 3rd century BC described yellow haired Libyan women (Hymn II to Apollo, 85) :
‘‘Greatly, indeed, did Phoibos rejoice as the belted warriors of Enyo danced with the yellow-haired Libyan women, when the appointed season of the Karneian feast came round’’
Source: Callimachus, Hymns and Epigrams, Loeb Classical Library Vol. 129. London: William Heinemann, 1921.
Pausanias (i. 14. 6) also notes that the Libyan Gods are blue eyed.
Blond haired Libyans were called Scythians by the Greeks and guess what the blonds in Kabylia were called. Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Anglo_Pyramidologist: ^ Nope.
Hesiod (c. 700BC) racially distinguishes between the Ethiopians (''black skins'') of Africa and the Libyans, the latter are not clustered in the ''black skin'' division.
Source: Catalogues of Women, Fragment 40a, Oxyrhynchus Papyri 1358.
The Periplus of Pseudo-Scylax (4th century BC) describes blonde haired (xanthe) Libyans:
''And there live around it all the Gyzantes Libyes, a community, and a city beyond (the lake) towards the sun’s setting; for all these Gyzantes Libyes are said to be all blonde-haired and very beautiful.''
Source: Geographi Graeci Minores, Vol. 1, p. 88, Col. B. (Note: You can find the Periplus online).
The ancient Libyan-Greek poet Callimachus in the 3rd century BC described yellow haired Libyan women (Hymn II to Apollo, 85) :
‘‘Greatly, indeed, did Phoibos rejoice as the belted warriors of Enyo danced with the yellow-haired Libyan women, when the appointed season of the Karneian feast came round’’
Source: Callimachus, Hymns and Epigrams, Loeb Classical Library Vol. 129. London: William Heinemann, 1921.
Pausanias (i. 14. 6) also notes that the Libyan Gods are blue eyed.
Who care about Libyo Scythian deities. Maures certainly didn't.
And how about the people who named Libya the Levathes or Austuriani, Mauri Mazazeces "Ethiopians" and Mauri of Zeugitana, and Byzacium and the Numidians.
Corippus on the Moors of Byzacium "also refers to Moors both individually and collectively , as being ‘black’ or ‘dark’ (niger), and even goes so far as to liken one Moorish woman and her children to a raven and its chicks” (Conant, J., Staying Roman 2012, p. 269).
Procopius in his De Bell Vandalico who wrote of people north of the desert (Gyzantes? perhaps)claiming that they were "not "black- skinned like the Mauri" “And this John, immediately upon arriving in Libya, had an engagement with Antalas and the Mauri in Byzacium, and conquering them in battle, slew many; and he wrested from these barbarians all the standards of Solomon,…”.
In Rome “every other slave was called Amasix, Maxyx, Maxitanus or simply Max” (Wendt, 1962, It Began in Babel,p. 66.
Amazigh were the Ethiopian luxury slaves of Rome. They are only referred to as Ethiopians in the deserts of Tripolitania.
Stephane Gsell quoted from the 4th century Expositio Totius Mundi in a 1926 publication which says one barbarous population lived in the desert known both as “Mazices" and as "Ethiopians”(Gsell, Histoire Ancienne de L’Afrique du Nord, Les Royaumes Indigenes Organisation Sociale, Politique et Economique 43. Paris: Librairie Hachette. Retrieved online June 1, 2011 1927, p. 2).
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
"SECTION 4 The term Negro is confined to slave Africans (The ancient Berbers) and their descendants. It does not embrace the free inhabitants of Africa, such as the Egyptians, Moors, or the Negro Asiatics, such as Lascars."
Why does the author call the Negro "the ancient Berbers". Because the people referred to as Berbers in Africa and Spain were Nilo-Saharan black people who settled in North AFrica and along the Niger called Jarawa or Wangarawa. These people are the ancestors of many Mande-speaking peoples including Djahanke, Djiallonke, Wolof, Wangara, Wakore, Songhai, Zenaga and Sarakholle and many peoples of Kanem and Bornu.
The name "Berber" or Babar referred to them long before it became confused with present Turkish and European descended speakers of the African dialect "Amazigh" and before it was brought up to north Africa by the Chadic related speakers.
According to scholars, the name Barbara and al-Barabir was also "attached to the Djanawa or Soninke (Wangara/Wakore) of Dar Tichitt in early Arab sources and Portuguese chronicles." (The role of the Sahara and the Saharians in relationships between north and south. In & Ivan Hrbek (Eds.). Africa from the Seventh to the Eleventh Century, (pp. 276-313) UNESCO. 1988, p. 313).
These " Wangara split up in two groups in Gobir, one going to Kano, the other going to the Aïr, and Fuglestead concluded that the first Wangara settlers in North Western Hausa came from Takedda, and were linked to the emergence of the Takedda kingdom”
Thus the Negroes i.e. people of the Niger who were associated with kingdoms spread from the Atlantic to the Nile were called "Berbers" and Baribari in these kingdoms.
Even today many of them call themselves the Baribari.
That is why all of the Moors you see in Europe wearing bands look Negro.
Believe me I was surprised as you to find this all out in the last few years but it is the truth. The ancestors have spoken and they are no longer playing around with you people. The times for your lies is up.
No where to run and no where to hide. Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
SECTION 4 The term Negro is confined to slave Africans (The ancient Berbers) and their descendants. It does not embrace the free inhabitants of Africa, such as the Egyptians, Moors, or the Negro Asiatics, such as Lascars.
^^^^ Read the above statement carefully, this part:
"The term Negro is confined to slave Africans (The ancient Berbers)"
^^^^^ Is it correct to call any of these tribes "ancient Berbers" ?
yes or no ? no dancing just yes or no
______________________________________________
Now look at another part of the statement:
(Negro) does not embrace the free inhabitants of Africa, such as the Egyptians, Moors...
^^^^ what this South Carolina law is saying is that Berbers are Negroes but Egyptians and Moors are not Negroes
some ignorant cracker lawyer from the deep south wrote this in 1848 and you want to take any of this seriously ????
It's like nobody ever read a book on the history of slavery before
Find some U.S. documents of slavery. Of all those hundreds find another with this wrong usage of the term "Berber" and one that speaks of Moors as not Berber
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: "SECTION 4 The term Negro is confined to slave Africans (The ancient Berbers) and their descendants. It does not embrace the free inhabitants of Africa, such as the Egyptians, Moors, or the Negro Asiatics, such as Lascars."
Why does the author call the Negro "the ancient Berbers". Because the people referred to as Berbers in Africa and Spain were Nilo-Saharan black people who settled in North AFrica and along the Niger called Jarawa or Wangarawa. These people are the ancestors of many Mande-speaking peoples including Djahanke, Djiallonke, Wolof, Wangara, Wakore, Songhai, Zenaga and Sarakholle and many peoples of Kanem and Bornu.
The name "Berber" or Babar referred to them long before it became confused with present Turkish and European descended speakers of the African dialect "Amazigh" and before it was brought up to north Africa by the Chadic related speakers.
According to scholars, the name Barbara and al-Barabir was also "attached to the Djanawa or Soninke (Wangara/Wakore) of Dar Tichitt in early Arab sources and Portuguese chronicles." (The role of the Sahara and the Saharians in relationships between north and south. In & Ivan Hrbek (Eds.). Africa from the Seventh to the Eleventh Century, (pp. 276-313) UNESCO. 1988, p. 313).
These " Wangara split up in two groups in Gobir, one going to Kano, the other going to the Aïr, and Fuglestead concluded that the first Wangara settlers in North Western Hausa came from Takedda, and were linked to the emergence of the Takedda kingdom”
Thus the Negroes i.e. people of the Niger who were associated with kingdoms spread from the Atlantic to the Nile were called "Berbers" and Baribari in these kingdoms.
Even today many of them call themselves the Baribari.
That is why all of the Moors you see in Europe wearing bands look Negro.
Believe me I was surprised as you to find this all out in the last few years but it is the truth. The ancestors have spoken and they are no longer playing around with you people. The times for your lies is up.
No where to run and no where to hide.
Incredible wisdom.
Beauty and Brains. Thanks once more.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: Blond haired Libyans were called Scythians by the Greeks and guess what the blonds in Kabylia were called. [/QB]
Scythians never moved into North Africa.
You are a troll.
What will be next, did eskimos move into North Africa as well? Posts: 1575 | From: - | Registered: May 2011
| IP: Logged |
Hesiod (c. 700BC) racially distinguishes between the Ethiopians (''black skins'') of Africa and the Libyans, the latter are not clustered in the ''black skin'' division.
Source: Catalogues of Women, Fragment 40a, Oxyrhynchus Papyri 1358.
The Periplus of Pseudo-Scylax (4th century BC) describes blonde haired (xanthe) Libyans:
''And there live around it all the Gyzantes Libyes, a community, and a city beyond (the lake) towards the sun’s setting; for all these Gyzantes Libyes are said to be all blonde-haired and very beautiful.''
Source: Geographi Graeci Minores, Vol. 1, p. 88, Col. B. (Note: You can find the Periplus online).
The ancient Libyan-Greek poet Callimachus in the 3rd century BC described yellow haired Libyan women (Hymn II to Apollo, 85) :
‘‘Greatly, indeed, did Phoibos rejoice as the belted warriors of Enyo danced with the yellow-haired Libyan women, when the appointed season of the Karneian feast came round’’
Source: Callimachus, Hymns and Epigrams, Loeb Classical Library Vol. 129. London: William Heinemann, 1921.
Pausanias (i. 14. 6) also notes that the Libyan Gods are blue eyed.
Come back Dana when you can actually adress the fact the earliest Greco-Roman sources describe the Libyans/North Africans as fair haired and light skinned, not dark, nappy haired Negroes.
You asked for sources, and the earliest sources we have describe the North Africans as Caucasoid.
lmao. You loose.
The only nappy haired Negroids in Africa, were taken there as slaves.
Posts: 1575 | From: - | Registered: May 2011
| IP: Logged |
Hesiod (c. 700BC) racially distinguishes between the Ethiopians (''black skins'') of Africa and the Libyans, the latter are not clustered in the ''black skin'' division.
Source: Catalogues of Women, Fragment 40a, Oxyrhynchus Papyri 1358.
The Periplus of Pseudo-Scylax (4th century BC) describes blonde haired (xanthe) Libyans:
''And there live around it all the Gyzantes Libyes, a community, and a city beyond (the lake) towards the sun’s setting; for all these Gyzantes Libyes are said to be all blonde-haired and very beautiful.''
Source: Geographi Graeci Minores, Vol. 1, p. 88, Col. B. (Note: You can find the Periplus online).
The ancient Libyan-Greek poet Callimachus in the 3rd century BC described yellow haired Libyan women (Hymn II to Apollo, 85) :
‘‘Greatly, indeed, did Phoibos rejoice as the belted warriors of Enyo danced with the yellow-haired Libyan women, when the appointed season of the Karneian feast came round’’
Source: Callimachus, Hymns and Epigrams, Loeb Classical Library Vol. 129. London: William Heinemann, 1921.
Pausanias (i. 14. 6) also notes that the Libyan Gods are blue eyed.
Come back Dana when you can actually adress the fact the earliest Greco-Roman sources describe the Libyans/North Africans as fair haired and light skinned, not dark, nappy haired Negroes.
You asked for sources, and the earliest sources we have describe the North Africans as Caucasoid.
lmao. You loose.
The only nappy haired Negroids in Africa, were taken there as slaves.
I think you need to read up on history of North AFrica because you are more than evidently ignorant of it.
"Cyrene is the melting-pot of Egyptian, Libyan, and Scythian things. Its founding suggests the Scythian account of their origins. " Benardete, Seth. Herodotean Inquiries, The Hague, 1969, p. 126.
Even Procopius mentions the Scythians Alans in North AFrica!
keep hope alive though.
The Libou were NOT fair-haired my rather warped-minded and delusional friend. They are only shown as dark-brown and the name Libya comes from them. I have already told you more than once that the Greeks DO talk about Scythians in Cyrene. That doesn't mean SCYTHIANS were the only people IN LIBYA or the earliest Libyans or the Libou themselves were blond.
The remnants of the Libou-Tjehenou - the Esbet or Isabeten are still located in Libya, a Tuareg speaking group of dark-skinned agriculturalists known as the Dag-Ghali.
"Mention is made of the Esbet and the Beken among the Libyans on whom Ramses III made war."
WHy does archaelogist Oric Bates say there is no appearance of xanthrochroids in ancient Egyptian paintings only until AFTER the Intermediate period of dynastic Egypt.
The skeletons of the ancient inhabitants of Libya like in the Fayum and northern Egypt are not those of Europoids.
Let us not forget how early inhabitants of Tunisians were described by the Greeks.
“Diodorus Siculus speaks in reference to the expedition of Agathocles, of three Libyan tribes on the coast of Tunisia, the Micatani and Zufoni (see Zafan )who were nomads and the Asfodelodi, who by the color of their skin resembled the Ethiopians” p. 50 The Mediterranean Race Book XX, 38, 57.
The same people as are now called Imakitan(Tuareg) and Sofeda/Safan of Sophonisba - BLACKS.
What Oric Bates said in his foundational work - The Eastern Libyans can not be refuted:
"For whereas the Libyan in earlier Egyptian art is regularly a brun, later representations exist showing Libyans not only blond, but even with red hair and blue eyes...
This blond element was not, probably, to be found far from the coast, the interior being occupied by the brun Hamitic type, and, as to-day, by mixed Hamites and negroes in the oases."
He states before this - the blond brachycephals were only found near the coast only after the beginning of fall of the Old Kingdom in Egypt.
“The brachycephals are, almost certainly, invaders, since they form but a small group near the northern seaboard of the dolichocephalic African continent."
Speaking of Mueller another specialist on North AFrica he writes "the author has justly observed that while the brun Libyan type is THE ONLY ONE portrayed in the Old Empire, the xanthochroids predominate in the New Empire representations.”
Descriptions of Libyan Garamantes in the Vandal period of North AFrica - "Two spottepigramme viciously attack the blackness of ‘Berber’ Garamantes from the African interior. AL183Riese labels a black man, possibly a successful athlete (Stevens,Kay), as ‘dregs that have invaded our space,’ ‘a black homeboy (verna) that loves his pitchy skin,’ an inhuman specter so dreadful that Dis should hire ‘the ink-blackened monster’ to guard the doors of Hell. Luxorius 329R calls black Garamantian women ugly and white Pontic women beautiful indicating apt local color in his West-East geographical twist on the South-North Greek racial dichotomy of Ethiopians and Thracians/Scythians (Xenoph. fr.16Diehls)." John H. STARKS, Jr. Abstract of "Was Black Beautiful in Vandal Africa?" in African Athena New Agendas, 2011.
"Luxorius praises white, feminine beauty in classic terms (364R), but with stronger cultural relevance in tributes to the white Vandal women among his ruling-class patrons (18R.36-7; 345R.6; George). By contrast, he castigates the dancer Gattula (361,362R), whose name may suggest Gaetulian heritage (Rosenblum; Melanogaetuli Ptol. 4.6.5) and her blackness gattula/francolin-black partridge TLL 1629), as the epitome of horrifying ugliness, an ominous evil who disgusts audiences with her gyrating body and attracts only corpses with the fruits of her success." Abstract from "Was Black Beautiful in Vandal Africa?"
BTW - Hesiod never speaks of the Libyans as white!
Regardless of the Scythian presence in early Libya early Garamantians and Pelasgians were considered the same people by the Greeks.
Garamas, Briareus and Ogygia were brothers - REMEMBER?
Case is very much closed.lol! Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
SECTION 4 The term Negro is confined to slave Africans (The ancient Berbers) and their descendants. It does not embrace the free inhabitants of Africa, such as the Egyptians, Moors, or the Negro Asiatics, such as Lascars.
^^^^ Read the above statement carefully, this part:
"The term Negro is confined to slave Africans (The ancient Berbers)"
^^^^^ Is it correct to call any of these tribes "ancient Berbers" ?
yes or no ? no dancing just yes or no
______________________________________________
Now look at another part of the statement:
(Negro) does not embrace the free inhabitants of Africa, such as the Egyptians, Moors...
^^^^ what this South Carolina law is saying is that Berbers are Negroes but Egyptians and Moors are not Negroes
some ignorant cracker lawyer from the deep south wrote this in 1848 and you want to take any of this seriously ????
It's like nobody ever read a book on the history of slavery before
Find some U.S. documents of slavery. Of all those hundreds find another with this wrong usage of the term "Berber" and one that speaks of Moors as not Berber
Sorry, but "Berber" or Baribari is and has always been the word Negroes or settlers on the Niger like the Zaghawa or Azuwagh, Kanembu or Kamnuri and others still use for themselves.
"the name Barbara and al-Barabir was attached to the Djanawa or Soninke (Wangara/Wakore) of Dar Tichitt in early Arab sources and Portuguese chronicles" (Lewicki, The role of the Sahara and the Saharians in relationships between north and south. UNESCO GENERAL HISTORY OF AFRICA 1988, p. 313)
The fact that your folk got things etymologically mixed up in recent times doesn't mitigate that fact.
I know its a hard pill to swallow when you have tarzan on your mind.
BTW - Modern Arabs and Egyptians are not Negroes. They have never settled on the Niger.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
Hesiod (c. 700BC) racially distinguishes between the Ethiopians (''black skins'') of Africa and the Libyans, the latter are not clustered in the ''black skin'' division.
Source: Catalogues of Women, Fragment 40a, Oxyrhynchus Papyri 1358.
The Periplus of Pseudo-Scylax (4th century BC) describes blonde haired (xanthe) Libyans:
''And there live around it all the Gyzantes Libyes, a community, and a city beyond (the lake) towards the sun’s setting; for all these Gyzantes Libyes are said to be all blonde-haired and very beautiful.''
Source: Geographi Graeci Minores, Vol. 1, p. 88, Col. B. (Note: You can find the Periplus online).
The ancient Libyan-Greek poet Callimachus in the 3rd century BC described yellow haired Libyan women (Hymn II to Apollo, 85) :
‘‘Greatly, indeed, did Phoibos rejoice as the belted warriors of Enyo danced with the yellow-haired Libyan women, when the appointed season of the Karneian feast came round’’
Source: Callimachus, Hymns and Epigrams, Loeb Classical Library Vol. 129. London: William Heinemann, 1921.
Pausanias (i. 14. 6) also notes that the Libyan Gods are blue eyed.
Come back Dana when you can actually adress the fact the earliest Greco-Roman sources describe the Libyans/North Africans as fair haired and light skinned, not dark, nappy haired Negroes.
You asked for sources, and the earliest sources we have describe the North Africans as Caucasoid.
lmao. You loose.
The only nappy haired Negroids in Africa, were taken there as slaves.
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: "SECTION 4 The term Negro is confined to slave Africans (The ancient Berbers) and their descendants. It does not embrace the free inhabitants of Africa, such as the Egyptians, Moors, or the Negro Asiatics, such as Lascars."
Why does the author call the Negro "the ancient Berbers". Because the people referred to as Berbers in Africa and Spain were Nilo-Saharan black people who settled in North AFrica and along the Niger called Jarawa or Wangarawa. These people are the ancestors of many Mande-speaking peoples including Djahanke, Djiallonke, Wolof, Wangara, Wakore, Songhai, Zenaga and Sarakholle and many peoples of Kanem and Bornu.
The name "Berber" or Babar referred to them long before it became confused with present Turkish and European descended speakers of the African dialect "Amazigh" and before it was brought up to north Africa by the Chadic related speakers.
According to scholars, the name Barbara and al-Barabir was also "attached to the Djanawa or Soninke (Wangara/Wakore) of Dar Tichitt in early Arab sources and Portuguese chronicles." (The role of the Sahara and the Saharians in relationships between north and south. In & Ivan Hrbek (Eds.). Africa from the Seventh to the Eleventh Century, (pp. 276-313) UNESCO. 1988, p. 313).
These " Wangara split up in two groups in Gobir, one going to Kano, the other going to the Aïr, and Fuglestead concluded that the first Wangara settlers in North Western Hausa came from Takedda, and were linked to the emergence of the Takedda kingdom”
Thus the Negroes i.e. people of the Niger who were associated with kingdoms spread from the Atlantic to the Nile were called "Berbers" and Baribari in these kingdoms.
Even today many of them call themselves the Baribari.
That is why all of the Moors you see in Europe wearing bands look Negro.
Believe me I was surprised as you to find this all out in the last few years but it is the truth. The ancestors have spoken and they are no longer playing around with you people. The times for your lies is up.
No where to run and no where to hide.
Incredible wisdom.
Beauty and Brains. Thanks once more.
Oops, almost didn't see this - thanks again for your confidence, Patrol. Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
^ Excellent dissection and evisceration of the Anglo-Idiot. The fool forgets that the Alani who invaded North Africa with the Vandals are at least culturally speaking of Scythian descent!
As for the malcontent.
quote:Originally posted by malcontent7: Hah! This crap has been refuted long ago from writings of Ibn Battuta himself of Berber orgin.
You have posted illustrations of personages before only to have them debunked through the invalid origins of those illustrations!
quote:And Black Tuaregs are due to recent admixture as they migrated southward.
Yet not only do they possess typical African lineages especially E-M81 associated with Berber speakers in general especially in the Maghreb but E-M183 associated with non-Maghreb Berber speakers in Libya as well as even older and ancestral E1b1. What exactly is so 'Eurasian' about these lineages??! Most Eurasian lineages in the Maghreb are European in origin and are largely maternal. They are actually very minimal among Berbers. Unless you want to postulate Berber is European in origin. Also, are you not aware that all three African PN2 lineages including elder E1b1 are found in the Iberian Peninsula of Europe dating to mesolithic times. If anything this shows Iberian Euros to be just as mixed due to expansions from the south! You've made similar claims of "migrations" before about Berber groups like the Siwa only to be debunked.
quote:There is physical evidence of non negroid people in North African going back many of thousands of years.
"Elena A. A. Garcea, an archaeologist at the University of Cassino in Italy, identified ceramics with wavy lines and zigzag patterns as Kiffian, a culture associated with northern Africa. Pots bearing a pointillistic pattern were linked to the Tenerians, a people named for the Ténéré Desert, a stretch of the Sahara known to Tuareg nomads as a “desert within a desert.”
Christopher M. Stojanowski, an archaeologist at Arizona State University, said the two cultures were “biologically distinct groups.” The bones and teeth showed that in contrast to the robust Kiffians, the Tenerians were typically short and lean and apparently led less rigorous lives. Perhaps, Dr. Stojanowski said, they had developed more advanced hunting technologies for taking smaller fish and game.
The shapes of the Tenerian skulls are puzzling, researchers said, because they resemble those of Mediterranean people, not other groups from the southern Sahara." www.nytimes.com/2008/08/15/science/15sahara.html
Yes. We've discussed the Tenerian remains before. And again, the skull features you call "non-negroid" or "Mediterranean" are found throughout Africa even in Sub-Sahara as far south as Tanzania. This is why the very concept of 'Caucasian' or Caca-soid is just caca. Notice how you always cite sources that focus on features of the skull only but not the body which show unequivocal and explicit tropically adapted features no different from bodies whose skulls are typically "negroid".
Jean Hiernaux Peoples of the World Series: The People of Africa (1975) The oldest remains of Homo sapiens sapiens found in East Africa were associated with an industry having similarities with the Capsian. It has been called Upper Kenyan Capsian, although its derivation from the North African Capsian is far from certain. At Gamble's Cave in Kenya, five human skeletons were associated with a late phase of the industry, Upper Kenya Capsian C, which contains pottery. A similar associationis presumed for a skeleton found at Olduvai, which resembles those from Gamble's Cave. The date of Upper Kenya Capsian C is not precisely known (an earlier phase from Prospect Farm on Eburru Mountain close to Gamble's Cave has been dated to about 8000 BC); but the presence of pottery indicates a rather later date, perhaps around 400 BC. The skeletons are of very tall people. They had long, narrow heads, and relatively long, narrow faces. The nose was of medium width; and prognathism, when present, was restricted to the alveolar, or tooth-bearing, region......all their features can be found in several living populations of East Africa, like the Tutsi of Rwanda and Burundi, who are very dark skinned and differ greatly from Europeans in a number of body proportions......... From the foregoing, it is tempting to locate the area of differentiation of these people in the interior of East Africa. There is every reason to believe that they are ancestral to the living 'Elongated East Africans'. Neither of these populations, fossil and modern, should be considered to be closely related to the populations of Europe and western Asia.
Claims that Caucasoid peoples once lived in eastern Africa have been shown to be wrong. --- JO Vogel, Precolonial Africa (1997)
Unfortunately claims that Caucasoid peoples once lived in northern Africa during ancient to prehistoric times still persist by ignoramuses like YOU!
The modern descendant of the Tenerians.
Here goes your Mediterranean Cacasoids above! Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Anglo_PrimeIdiot: Come back Dana when you can actually adress the fact the earliest Greco-Roman sources describe the Libyans/North Africans as fair haired and light skinned, not dark, nappy haired Negroes.
You asked for sources, and the earliest sources we have describe the North Africans as Caucasoid.
lmao. You loose.
The only nappy haired Negroids in Africa, were taken there as slaves.
I think you need to read up on history of North Africa because you are more than evidently ignorant of it.
"Cyrene is the melting-pot of Egyptian, Libyan, and Scythian things. Its founding suggests the Scythian account of their origins. " Benardete, Seth. Herodotean Inquiries, The Hague, 1969, p. 126.
Even Procopius mentions the Scythians Alans in North AFrica!
keep hope alive though.
The Libou were NOT fair-haired my rather warped-minded and delusional friend. They are only shown as dark-brown and the name Libya comes from them. I have already told you more than once that the Greeks DO talk about Scythians in Cyrene. That doesn't mean SCYTHIANS were the only people IN LIBYA or the earliest Libyans or the Libou themselves were blond.
The remnants of the Libou-Tjehenou - the Esbet or Isabeten are still located in Libya, a Tuareg speaking group of dark-skinned agriculturalists known as the Dag-Ghali.
"Mention is made of the Esbet and the Beken among the Libyans on whom Ramses III made war."
WHy does archaelogist Oric Bates say there is no appearance of xanthrochroids in ancient Egyptian paintings only until AFTER the Intermediate period of dynastic Egypt.
The skeletons of the ancient inhabitants of Libya like in the Fayum and northern Egypt are not those of Europoids.
Let us not forget how early inhabitants of Tunisians were described by the Greeks.
“Diodorus Siculus speaks in reference to the expedition of Agathocles, of three Libyan tribes on the coast of Tunisia, the Micatani and Zufoni (see Zafan )who were nomads and the Asfodelodi, who by the color of their skin resembled the Ethiopians” p. 50 The Mediterranean Race Book XX, 38, 57.
The same people as are now called Imakitan(Tuareg) and Sofeda/Safan of Sophonisba - BLACKS.
What Oric Bates said in his foundational work - The Eastern Libyans can not be refuted:
"For whereas the Libyan in earlier Egyptian art is regularly a brun, later representations exist showing Libyans not only blond, but even with red hair and blue eyes...
This blond element was not, probably, to be found far from the coast, the interior being occupied by the brun Hamitic type, and, as to-day, by mixed Hamites and negroes in the oases."
He states before this - the blond brachycephals were only found near the coast only after the beginning of fall of the Old Kingdom in Egypt.
“The brachycephals are, almost certainly, invaders, since they form but a small group near the northern seaboard of the dolichocephalic African continent."
Speaking of Mueller another specialist on North AFrica he writes "the author has justly observed that while the brun Libyan type is THE ONLY ONE portrayed in the Old Empire, the xanthochroids predominate in the New Empire representations.”
Descriptions of Libyan Garamantes in the Vandal period of North AFrica - "Two spottepigramme viciously attack the blackness of ‘Berber’ Garamantes from the African interior. AL183Riese labels a black man, possibly a successful athlete (Stevens,Kay), as ‘dregs that have invaded our space,’ ‘a black homeboy (verna) that loves his pitchy skin,’ an inhuman specter so dreadful that Dis should hire ‘the ink-blackened monster’ to guard the doors of Hell. Luxorius 329R calls black Garamantian women ugly and white Pontic women beautiful indicating apt local color in his West-East geographical twist on the South-North Greek racial dichotomy of Ethiopians and Thracians/Scythians (Xenoph. fr.16Diehls)." John H. STARKS, Jr. Abstract of "Was Black Beautiful in Vandal Africa?" in African Athena New Agendas, 2011.
"Luxorius praises white, feminine beauty in classic terms (364R), but with stronger cultural relevance in tributes to the white Vandal women among his ruling-class patrons (18R.36-7; 345R.6; George). By contrast, he castigates the dancer Gattula (361,362R), whose name may suggest Gaetulian heritage (Rosenblum; Melanogaetuli Ptol. 4.6.5) and her blackness gattula/francolin-black partridge TLL 1629), as the epitome of horrifying ugliness, an ominous evil who disgusts audiences with her gyrating body and attracts only corpses with the fruits of her success." Abstract from "Was Black Beautiful in Vandal Africa?"
BTW - Hesiod never speaks of the Libyans as white!
Regardless of the Scythian presence in early Libya early Garamantians and Pelasgians were considered the same people by the Greeks.
Garamas, Briareus and Ogygia were brothers - REMEMBER?
Case is very much closed.lol!
Indeed. Even if whites including those with blonde and red hair were indeed present in North Africa, does this fool really believe they were the original inhabitants of the region?? Does he thinks blacks are the newcomers or recent immigrants while whites are indigenous?? LOL
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Tjehenu are the oldest AE recorded Libyans. They were the ones with long tress in back of ear crossband dressers.
Tjehenu
Predynastic Delta Egyptian man with similar features and hairstyle.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Tjemehu begin to appear a bit later in the documents and sterotyped with bangs, dreadlocks, and sidelock in front of ear.
Same features as this modern Moor minus the side lock.
The same facial features as this young Tuareg boy.
Only on certain occasions did the Egyptians encounter white Libyans with light colored hair. Obviously these people are as much a minority in North Africa as Dutch Afrikaners are in South Africa if not more so.
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
Above the front door, travel by boat. Pilgrimage to Abydos
26th Lybian Dynasty Tomb..
The founder of the dynasty was Psammetichus I, originally a member of the Libyan royal house in Saïs (which is why the period is also called the Saite Period). Psammetichus originally ruled in Egypt with the help of Assyria and ruled over Lower Egypt with other local princes (Herodotus speaks of twelve kings). With the help of Greek and Carian mercenaries he eventually succeeded in ruling alone.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
| IP: Logged |
Above the front door, travel by boat. Pilgrimage to Abydos
26th Lybian Dynasty Tomb..
The founder of the dynasty was Psammetichus I, originally a member of the Libyan royal house in Saïs (which is why the period is also called the Saite Period). Psammetichus originally ruled in Egypt with the help of Assyria and ruled over Lower Egypt with other local princes (Herodotus speaks of twelve kings). With the help of Greek and Carian mercenaries he eventually succeeded in ruling alone.
After seeing these paintings I wonder why the Euronuts get so hung up on the fact that they can't find any blacks or dark-skinned Moors represented in the Roman Mosaics. The fascinating thing is the earlier dynasties of Libyans painted the same dark brown color are supposed to be Meshwesh supposedly painted fair in color in ancient Egyptian tomb paintings. I wonder what Euronuts like the now supposedly disappeared LYING _SS have to say about that.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
^ Actually I'm hung up on why the Euronuts supposedly 'can't' find any blacks or dark-skinned Moors represented in the Roman Mosaics.
I didn't have any difficulty finding these Roman mosaics here:
When I showed the above portraits to Malcontent, he claimed they were "tanned". LOL
By the way, there are also plenty of portraits of black Moors created by Euros themselves from the 16th century to the early 20th century shown here.
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Actually I'm hung up on why the Euronuts supposedly 'can't' find any blacks or dark-skinned Moors represented in the Roman Mosaics.
I didn't have any difficulty finding these Roman mosaics here:
When I showed the above portraits to Malcontent, he claimed they were "tanned". LOL
By the way, there are also plenty of portraits of black Moors created by Euros themselves from the 16th century to the early 20th century shown here.
Well they certainly don't look as dark as Osorkon's folk supposed representatives of the Meshwesh tribe of Libyans, but there is the possibility that they were mixed or that the frescoes are significantly lighter than they were, since individuals do seem to have African features. Obviously the Libyans that are described as extremely black, such as the Garamantes aren't represented here though.
I mean what's interesting is that Osorkon and Shoshenqs people are depicting themselves just as dark if not darker than the Nubians did. And yet you always are shown the Mashwesh being portrayed by ancient Egyptians as "cream" colored. A typical Meshwesh is supposed to be the one Lying_ss likes to post.
There is something seriously wrong again - the Libyans of the 22nd-23rd dynasty look like typical Nilo-Saharan or Fezzani African people.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
^ The folk in the mosaic portraits don't have to be as dark as Osorkon's people because they are NOT Osorkon's people or any other Libyan group. The persons in the portraits are actually Tunisians and likely not mixed at all but pure Tunisian natives as the Romans saw them. Their complexions likely match the Mauretanians as the lightest complexioned blacks listed by the Roman Manilius.
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ The folk in the mosaic portraits don't have to be as dark as Osorkon's people because they are NOT Osorkon's people or any other Libyan group. The persons in the portraits are actually Tunisians and likely not mixed at all but pure Tunisian natives as the Romans saw them. Their complexions likely match the Mauretanians as the lightest complexioned blacks listed by the Roman Manilius.
The only problem is Corippus describes the Moors of Tunisia as "black as crows" or ravens. And many of the Berbers of Tunisia are for the most part much blacker than that even today like. If Mauretania didn't necessarily mean Moors/Berbers than it is not necessary the people in the Mosaics were Mauri. Mauretania of course was mostly Algeria and Morocco and included many peoples Alans, Armani, Romans, Mauri and and probably mixed peoples. The Mauri themselves are described by Manilius as "concolor Indomaurus" - Indi being the name of Abyssinians in that day and one of the woolly haired and "Ethiopian" races of writers like Isidore, Evagrius, Nonnus and others. The area Carthage was named Zeugitana and to the south of that was Byzacium. Zeugitana was likely named after the Zuaga/Zuwaga or Zaghawa Africans and Corippus compares Mauri of Byzacium to the color of ravens/crows.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
^ Is it not possible that population changes took place via migration from other parts of Africa? Many earlier Greek and Roman authors noticed a difference in complexion with the Tunisians generally being lighter, not that it really mattered since even these lighter types were still considered 'black' or grouped among the black peoples.
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Is it not possible that population changes took place via migration from other parts of Africa? Many earlier Greek and Roman authors noticed a difference in complexion with the Tunisians generally being lighter, not that it really mattered since even these lighter types were still considered 'black' or grouped among the black peoples.
Which Tunisians were lighter? The Gyzantes were not Mauri and as I remember they were blonds tall and eaters of monkeys or the Barbary Ape. Early scholars think they were in fact the Byzantes and the same population of the Byzantines i.e. SLAVIC Blond Greek-related people in Europe.
I have already acknowledge Scythic people did occupy Mauritania and Libya. Mauri in Tunisia are only described as black and in most cases very black.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
^ I doubt whether the white peoples described are actually of 'Scythic' origins, and I rather think they come from southwest Europe instead as noted by genetic evidence of Iberian influence as well as older blood grouping studies in the Maghreb showing affinities to Basques. These may well have been the source of the white Libyans depicted in New Kingdom tombs.
Regardless, my point was that the black people of Tunisia and the Maghreb in general varied in complexion with those in the north tending to be relatively lighter as is a common occurrence in northeast Africa as well as other areas of the world.
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: ..The Mauri themselves are described by Manilius as "concolor Indomaurus" - Indi being the name of Abyssinians in that day and one of the woolly haired and "Ethiopian" races of writers like Isidore, Evagrius, Nonnus and others. The area Carthage was named Zeugitana and to the south of that was Byzacium. Zeugitana was likely named after the Zuaga/Zuwaga or Zaghawa Africans and Corippus compares Mauri of Byzacium to the color of ravens/crows.
The portraits above depict people with the same complexion as Abyssinians. No?
Modern Tunisians
^ They may not be as black as 'crows' or 'ravens' but still plenty black.
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
I'm going to go against the consensus in this thread and submit that even if coastal Northwest Africans once had statistically darker skin and less "Caucasian" affinities than the modern population, they have nonetheless looked distinct from Africans south of the Atlas Mountains for a much longer period of time than the last 500 years as Dana argues.
In the sum, the results obtained further strengthen the results from previous analyses. The affinities between Nazlet Khater, MSA, and Khoisan and Khoisan related groups re-emerges. In addition it is possible to detect a separation between North African and sub-saharan populations, with the Neolithic Saharan population from Hasi el Abiod and the Egyptian Badarian group being closely affiliated with modern Negroid groups. Similarly, the Epipaleolithic populations from Site 117 and Wadi Halfa are also affiliated with sub-Saharan LSA, Iron Age and modern Negroid groups rather than with contemporaneous North African populations such as Taforalt and the Ibero-maurusian.---Pierre M. Vermeersch in Palaeolithic quarrying sites in Upper and Middle Egypt, 2002
Also recall Keita 1990 finding ancient Maghrebian skulls to have variable morphology, with some definitely having tropical African affinities but others tending towards a more European or intermediate morphology. Blacks may have always existed in the Maghreb, but the "Caucasian" component probably goes back at least to the late Paleolithic as shown by the Taforalt and Ibero-Maurusian remains. That actually shouldn't surprise us when we take into account that Iberia is practically a stone's drop away from Africa north of the Atlas.
BTW, the mosaics actually look rather pink to me.
Posts: 7069 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
^ You brought up this same argument before about Keita's 'northern coastal types'. Being intermediate with Europeans or having so-called "Caucasoid" features does not necessarily mean gene flow from Europe or elsewhere outside of Africa. Such features are also to be found in mesolithic crania in the Horn and as far south as Tanzania. As for the Maghreb, such variability is not unique since what that Vermeersch study didn't take into account are findings in the western areas of the Sahara such as the Tenerians which was brought up by Malconent which I addressed above.
Now I am in no way discounting European gene flow into the Maghreb from Iberia which there is genetic evidence of, but that doesn't seem to be a strong factor into the general cranial morphology of the area. One could make a similar argument about African gene flow from the Maghreb into Iberia as discussed here.
As for the mosaics, I don't know about your eyesight, but to me they are mocha brownish in color.
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
^ Highly problematic. Since Negroid admixture in Spain is as low as 2%, and it only shows up in the south. The geneflow was in the other direction.
Posts: 1575 | From: - | Registered: May 2011
| IP: Logged |
posted
^ Proof?? We all know your habit of classifying African lineages found in Europe as "Caucasoid", yet the paternal E1b1b as well as older E2 lineages found in Spain are very much tied to BLACK Sub-Saharans and so does the maternal L3 and L2 lineages as well, all of which are not confined to the 'south' at all. Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
^ Of course those African lineages are Caucasoid.
Southern Europeans are up to 33% E. Yet they don't look 1/3 Negroid. They don't have nappy hair, big lips and wide noses. They have Caucasoid (wavy) hair and fine features.
You troll this forum claiming Southern Europeans are 1/3 ''Black'', why then don't they look Black admixed? LMAO...
Posts: 1575 | From: - | Registered: May 2011
| IP: Logged |
posted
^ You are obviously ignorant about genetics. Y-chromosome haplogroups have NOTHING to do with phenotype. They are genetic signatures found in the Y-chromosome of males and have no influence with something like facial features, hair form, or skin color all of which are determined by genes in autosomal DNA. A black man from Africa could marry a white woman in Scandinavia and have children by her, and those children intermarry with the surrounding Scandinavians etc. etc. After many generations his descendants could look completely white due to the majority of their autosomal DNA coming from native white Scandinavians. Of course this has no bearing on their African lineage particularly among the males who still carry their African forefather's signature on their Y-chromosomes.
Thus how someone looks does not say anything about actual ancestry. As I said, Iberians also possess E2 whose highest frequency closest to Europe is in Senegal yet you obviously don't consider Senegalese to be 'Caucasian' now do you? Southern Europeans especially in southern Italy and Greece also carry the Benin variety of sickle cell anemia which is an autosomal trait. Do you consider West Africans of the Benin region to be 'Caucasian' as well? LOL
LOL You better watch out Anglo-Idiot. There's no telling. Even YOU might have "negro blood"! Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
As you have figured out, this entire board consists of ONE sick degenerate that has created ficticious names to talk to itself in. There is NOONE on this site that can be trusted but me. The only links on this site that can be trusted are the ones that I provide for you! Here is a link that you can use as a resource and can be trusted! http://www.raceandhistory.com/
When you have finished reading this post check out this site to learn the truth about history and ALL civilzations. Do NOT be fooled by the real history link that the filthy monkey created using the race and history link as a guide. This is the ONLY site that can be trusted http://www.raceandhistory.com/
Isnt it funny how this one little link destroys all of the charts, graphs and pics that the filthy monkey lies to us with? You now understand why the filthy monkey continues to spam the board with photos of modern day populations that had absolutely NOTHING to do with ancient Egypt
The next time one of these degenerates tries to tell you a lie just refer the moonkey to the latest DNA analysis on the ancient Egyptians, and then tell the faggot to crawl back in its cave!
The pig just keeps showing us why these crackers should not exist! They have genetically recessive genes and ion 50 years they will be the minority in BRITAIN!! THAT ALONE SHOULD TELL YOU THAT THEY WILL EVENTUALLY DIE OUT LIKE THE UNATURAL ABOMINATIONS THAT THEY ARE!
Look at the low IQ monkey with its charts and pictures LOL tHE dna analysis does not matter to this monkey, because it lives in a world of fantasy! lol
Folks, the monkey performs at my commend. I am this monkeys master!But then again all one needs to do is take a cursury look at this monkeys youtube page to understand the tenuous grip on reality that this monkey has! LOL http://www.youtube.com/user/phoenician7
When the DNA analysis irrefutably shows that the modern day populations of South Africa, West Africa anmd central Africa are the ancestors of the ancient Egyptians what does a low IQ monkey do???
The low IQ monkey shows pictures and charts and munbles on and on about haplogroups while completely ignoring what the DNA analysis of the ancient Egyptians actually says LOL
the DNA analysis irrefutably shows that the modern day populations of South Africa, West Africa anmd central Africa are the ancestors of the ancient Egyptians. Thats what the DNA says, thats what the science says. This monkey in all of its fake names is very pathetic isnt it?
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: Hah! This crap has been refuted long ago from writings of Ibn Battuta himself of Berber orgin.
And Black Tuaregs are due to recent admixture as they migrated southward.
There is physical evidence of non negroide people in North African going back many of thousands of years.
"Elena A. A. Garcea, an archaeologist at the University of Cassino in Italy, identified ceramics with wavy lines and zigzag patterns as Kiffian, a culture associated with northern Africa. Pots bearing a pointillistic pattern were linked to the Tenerians, a people named for the Ténéré Desert, a stretch of the Sahara known to Tuareg nomads as a “desert within a desert.”
Christopher M. Stojanowski, an archaeologist at Arizona State University, said the two cultures were “biologically distinct groups.” The bones and teeth showed that in contrast to the robust Kiffians, the Tenerians were typically short and lean and apparently led less rigorous lives. Perhaps, Dr. Stojanowski said, they had developed more advanced hunting technologies for taking smaller fish and game.
The shapes of the Tenerian skulls are puzzling, researchers said, because they resemble those of Mediterranean people, not other groups from the southern Sahara." www.nytimes.com/2008/08/15/science/15sahara.html
The writings of Ibn Battuta 14th century who said-
- “I then went from Aden by sea, and after four days came to the city of Zayla. This is a settlement, of the Berbers, a people of Sudan, of the Shafia sect. Their country is a desert of two months' extent; the first part is termed Zayla, the last Makdashu." cited by Richard Francis Burton p. 48 of the book, First Footsteps in East Africa: Or an Exploration of Harar.
lol! Case CLOSED! Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote: [QUOTE]Originally posted by malcontent7: [qb] Hah! This crap has been refuted long ago from writings of Ibn Battuta himself of Berber orgin.
You have posted illustrations of personages before only to have them debunked through the invalid origins of those illustrations!
quote:And Black Tuaregs are due to recent admixture as they migrated southward.
Yet not only do they possess typical African lineages especially E-M81 associated with Berber speakers in general especially in the Maghreb but E-M183 associated with non-Maghreb Berber speakers in Libya as well as even older and ancestral E1b1. What exactly is so 'Eurasian' about these lineages??! Most Eurasian lineages in the Maghreb are European in origin and are largely maternal. They are actually very minimal among Berbers. Unless you want to postulate Berber is European in origin. Also, are you not aware that all three African PN2 lineages including elder E1b1 are found in the Iberian Peninsula of Europe dating to mesolithic times. If anything this shows Iberian Euros to be just as mixed due to expansions from the south! You've made similar claims of "migrations" before about Berber groups like the Siwa only to be debunked.
quote:There is physical evidence of non negroid people in North African going back many of thousands of years.
"Elena A. A. Garcea, an archaeologist at the University of Cassino in Italy, identified ceramics with wavy lines and zigzag patterns as Kiffian, a culture associated with northern Africa. Pots bearing a pointillistic pattern were linked to the Tenerians, a people named for the Ténéré Desert, a stretch of the Sahara known to Tuareg nomads as a “desert within a desert.”
Christopher M. Stojanowski, an archaeologist at Arizona State University, said the two cultures were “biologically distinct groups.” The bones and teeth showed that in contrast to the robust Kiffians, the Tenerians were typically short and lean and apparently led less rigorous lives. Perhaps, Dr. Stojanowski said, they had developed more advanced hunting technologies for taking smaller fish and game.
The shapes of the Tenerian skulls are puzzling, researchers said, because they resemble those of Mediterranean people, not other groups from the southern Sahara." www.nytimes.com/2008/08/15/science/15sahara.html
They didn't call ancient inhabitants of the Meidterranean "gracile Mediterraneans" for nothing dimwit -
Here are your Tenere Mediterraneans - "Phase 3 humans have more gracile skeletons and shorter stature for both males and females. They are buried most commonly in semi-flexed postures on either left or right sides (Figure 5D, E). Their crania are long, high and narrow, and their faces are taller with considerable alveolar prognathism (Figure 5C). Principal components analysis of craniometric data clearly distinguishes the mid-Holocene population at Gobero (Gob-m) from all other sampled populations, including the early Holocene population at Gobero, Iberomaurusian and Capsian populations from the Maghreb..." - Sereno et al. (2008), Lakeside Cemeteries in the Sahara: 5000 Years of Holocene Population and Environmental Change.
You people will never learn.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote: [QUOTE]Originally posted by malcontent7: [qb] Hah! This crap has been refuted long ago from writings of Ibn Battuta himself of Berber orgin.
You have posted illustrations of personages before only to have them debunked through the invalid origins of those illustrations!
quote:And Black Tuaregs are due to recent admixture as they migrated southward.
Yet not only do they possess typical African lineages especially E-M81 associated with Berber speakers in general especially in the Maghreb but E-M183 associated with non-Maghreb Berber speakers in Libya as well as even older and ancestral E1b1. What exactly is so 'Eurasian' about these lineages??! Most Eurasian lineages in the Maghreb are European in origin and are largely maternal. They are actually very minimal among Berbers. Unless you want to postulate Berber is European in origin. Also, are you not aware that all three African PN2 lineages including elder E1b1 are found in the Iberian Peninsula of Europe dating to mesolithic times. If anything this shows Iberian Euros to be just as mixed due to expansions from the south! You've made similar claims of "migrations" before about Berber groups like the Siwa only to be debunked.
quote:There is physical evidence of non negroid people in North African going back many of thousands of years.
"Elena A. A. Garcea, an archaeologist at the University of Cassino in Italy, identified ceramics with wavy lines and zigzag patterns as Kiffian, a culture associated with northern Africa. Pots bearing a pointillistic pattern were linked to the Tenerians, a people named for the Ténéré Desert, a stretch of the Sahara known to Tuareg nomads as a “desert within a desert.”
Christopher M. Stojanowski, an archaeologist at Arizona State University, said the two cultures were “biologically distinct groups.” The bones and teeth showed that in contrast to the robust Kiffians, the Tenerians were typically short and lean and apparently led less rigorous lives. Perhaps, Dr. Stojanowski said, they had developed more advanced hunting technologies for taking smaller fish and game.
The shapes of the Tenerian skulls are puzzling, researchers said, because they resemble those of Mediterranean people, not other groups from the southern Sahara." www.nytimes.com/2008/08/15/science/15sahara.html
They didn't call ancient black inhabitants of the Meidterranean "gracile Mediterraneans" for nothing dimwit -
Here are your Tenere Mediterraneans - "Phase 3 humans have more gracile skeletons and shorter stature for both males and females. They are buried most commonly in semi-flexed postures on either left or right sides (Figure 5D, E). Their crania are long, high and narrow, and their faces are taller with considerable alveolar prognathism (Figure 5C). Principal components analysis of craniometric data clearly distinguishes the mid-Holocene population at Gobero (Gob-m) from all other sampled populations, including the early Holocene population at Gobero, Iberomaurusian and Capsian populations from the Maghreb..." - Sereno et al. (2008), Lakeside Cemeteries in the Sahara: 5000 Years of Holocene Population and Environmental Change.
You people will never learn.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
Early Mozarabic writing on the Syrians meeting the Moors is cited in a recent text.
“ In the words of the Latin Chronicle of 754, the course of this battle was also influenced by the frightening appearance of the Berbers. It reads:
'They [i.e. the Syrian Arabs] decided on their own initiative to hasten to the sea, crossing the territory of the Moors to attack Tangiers with the Swords. But the army of the Moors, realizing this immediately burst forth from the mountains to the battle naked girded only with loin-cloths covering their shameful parts. When they joined with each other in battle at the Nava river, the Egyptian horses immediately recoiled in flight, as the Moors on their beautiful horses revealed their repulsive colour and gnashed their white teeth. Despairing, they launched another attack, the Arab cavalry again instantly recoiled due to the colour of the Moors’ skin.'”
“…the Latin Chronicle of 754 is the earliest record of the Arab defeat by the Syrian commander Kulthum b. Iyad al Qushayri. “ See p. 71 Ibn Garcia’s Shu’ubiyya Letter: Ethnic and Theological Tensions in Medieval by Goran Larsson 2003 published by Brill.
Early Moors were not you.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
More lyinass b.s. Obviously the worm is wriggling like crazy. 
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Cool]](cool.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Embarrassed]](redface.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic