posted
^ The Beja definitely are not homogeneous as the different tribes or clans do seem to have genetic influence from surrounding groups. For example, some Beja tribes in the south especially those in Eritrea don't even speak their native To-Bedawi language but Tigrai and many in Eritrea practice Tigrai culture. Also there are those like Swenet who suggest that many Beja in general may descend from immigrants from farther west in the desert as many aspects of modern Beja culture differ from that of their alleged Medjay ancestors.
Speaking of which, what do you make of this source cited by Dana?
"Further south, above the Third cataract, were the vile Kush or Kesh who were not Negroes but Caucasians, ancestors of the Ethiopians. Both Herodotus and Egyptian monuments segregate the Kush into two main types a straight haired race and a woolly haired race dwelling to the east and west of the Nile respectively." Ancient Armies of the Middle East, 1981. Terence Wise Angus McBride
Posts: 26295 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Anglo_PrimeIdiot: All Badarian hair samples we have are wavy-straight. These peoples simply weren't Negroids.
A more accurate assessment of hair isn't the form or look but rather examination of the actual follicles. In physical anthropology the common form or method of assessment is the trichometric index: you can get measurements for the minimum and maximum diameter of a hair The minimum measurement is then divided by the maximum and then multiplied by a hundred. This produces an index. A survey of the scientific literature produces the following breakdown:
San, Southern African 55.00 Zulu, Southern African 55.00 (other)Sub-Saharan African 60.00 Tasmanian (Black) 64.70 Australian (Black) 68.00 Western European 71.20 Asian Indian 73.00 Navajo American 77.00 Chinese 82.60
In the early 1970s, the Czech anthropologist Eugen Strouhal examined pre-dynastic [Badarian] Egyptian skulls at Cambridge University. He sent some samples of the hair to the Institute of Anthropology at Charles University, Prague, to be analyzed. The hair samples were described as varying in texture from "wavy" to "curly" and in colour from "light brown" to "black". Strouhal summarized the results of the analysis:
"The outline of the cross-sections of the hairs was flattened, with indices ranging from 35 to 65. These peculiarities also show the Negroid inference among the Badarians (pre-dynastic Egyptians)."
The term "Negroid influence" suggests intermixture, but as the table suggests this hair is more "Negroid" than the San and the Zulu samples, currently the most Negroid hair in existence!
In another study, hair samples from ten 18th-25th dynasty individuals produced an average index of 51! As far back as 1877, Dr. Pruner-Bey analyzed six ancient Egyptian hair samples. Their average index of 64.4 was similar to the Tasmanians who lie at the periphery of the African-haired populations(1).
A team of Italian anthropologists published their research in the Journal of Human Evolution in 1972 and 1980. They measured two samples consisting of 26 individuals from pre-dynastic, 12th dynasty and 18th dynasty mummies. They produced a mean index of 66.50.
The overall average of all four sets of ancient Egyptian hair samples was 60.02. Sounds familiar...
From 'Egyptology: Hanging in the Hair' by Anu M'bantu and Fari Supia
Also...
"..In addition it is possible to detect a separation between North African and sub-saharan populations, with the Neolithic Saharan population from Hasi el Abiod and the Egyptian Badarian group being closely affiliated with modern Negroid groups..." Title Palaeolithic quarrying sites in Upper and Middle Egypt Volume 4 of Egyptian prehistory monographs Author Pierre M. Vermeersch
quote:Negroids don't have wavy or straight hair.
East African local race, a subgroup, roughly corresponding to a breeding isolate in genetics, of the Negroid (African) geographic race, comprising the populations of East Africa and The Sudan. The physical type of the East African local race is primarily one of adaptation to a hot, dry climate; it is marked by long, thin body build, long, narrow face and nose, and moderate to heavy skin pigmentation. The Sudanese peoples are dark-skinned and extremely tall and thin (linear) in build. The other East African populations are also more or less linear in build and somewhat lighter skinned than the Sudanese. All have dark eyes and dark hair, wavy to frizzy in texture. Encyclopedia Britannica Vol. 4
So much for Anglo-Idiocy. Posts: 26295 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Anglo_PrimeIdiot: All Badarian hair samples we have are wavy-straight. These peoples simply weren't Negroids.
A more accurate assessment of hair isn't the form or look but rather examination of the actual follicles. In physical anthropology the common form or method of assessment is the trichometric index: you can get measurements for the minimum and maximum diameter of a hair The minimum measurement is then divided by the maximum and then multiplied by a hundred. This produces an index. A survey of the scientific literature produces the following breakdown:
San, Southern African 55.00 Zulu, Southern African 55.00 (other)Sub-Saharan African 60.00 Tasmanian (Black) 64.70 Australian (Black) 68.00 Western European 71.20 Asian Indian 73.00 Navajo American 77.00 Chinese 82.60
In the early 1970s, the Czech anthropologist Eugen Strouhal examined pre-dynastic [Badarian] Egyptian skulls at Cambridge University. He sent some samples of the hair to the Institute of Anthropology at Charles University, Prague, to be analyzed. The hair samples were described as varying in texture from "wavy" to "curly" and in colour from "light brown" to "black". Strouhal summarized the results of the analysis:
"The outline of the cross-sections of the hairs was flattened, with indices ranging from 35 to 65. These peculiarities also show the Negroid inference among the Badarians (pre-dynastic Egyptians)."
The term "Negroid influence" suggests intermixture, but as the table suggests this hair is more "Negroid" than the San and the Zulu samples, currently the most Negroid hair in existence!
In another study, hair samples from ten 18th-25th dynasty individuals produced an average index of 51! As far back as 1877, Dr. Pruner-Bey analyzed six ancient Egyptian hair samples. Their average index of 64.4 was similar to the Tasmanians who lie at the periphery of the African-haired populations(1).
A team of Italian anthropologists published their research in the Journal of Human Evolution in 1972 and 1980. They measured two samples consisting of 26 individuals from pre-dynastic, 12th dynasty and 18th dynasty mummies. They produced a mean index of 66.50.
The overall average of all four sets of ancient Egyptian hair samples was 60.02. Sounds familiar...
From 'Egyptology: Hanging in the Hair' by Anu M'bantu and Fari Supia
Also...
"..In addition it is possible to detect a separation between North African and sub-saharan populations, with the Neolithic Saharan population from Hasi el Abiod and the Egyptian Badarian group being closely affiliated with modern Negroid groups..." Title Palaeolithic quarrying sites in Upper and Middle Egypt Volume 4 of Egyptian prehistory monographs Author Pierre M. Vermeersch
quote:Negroids don't have wavy or straight hair.
East African local race, a subgroup, roughly corresponding to a breeding isolate in genetics, of the Negroid (African) geographic race, comprising the populations of East Africa and The Sudan. The physical type of the East African local race is primarily one of adaptation to a hot, dry climate; it is marked by long, thin body build, long, narrow face and nose, and moderate to heavy skin pigmentation. The Sudanese peoples are dark-skinned and extremely tall and thin (linear) in build. The other East African populations are also more or less linear in build and somewhat lighter skinned than the Sudanese. All have dark eyes and dark hair, wavy to frizzy in texture. Encyclopedia Britannica Vol. 4
So much for Anglo-Idiocy.
There are some East Africans who don't look mixed, however there are others who clearly look mixed. A lot of them mixed with the Arabs. If you look at them there is no way in hell that they are fully Black
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There are some East Africans who don't look mixed, however there are others who clearly look mixed. A lot of them mixed with the Arabs. If you look at them there is no way in hell that they are fully Black
^^One thing's for sure, there is no doubt you are an idiot troll.
Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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posted
''The simplest conclusion is that most Ethiopians come from an admixture in which a slightly smaller fraction, of Caucasoid origin'' (Cavalli-Sforza et al, 1994)
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1-- Villena's Greek-Macedonian-African study has nothing to do with the Jew-Palestinian controversy. The study was withdrawn for political reasons, and offended sensibilities of various Jewish and other groups. Assorted "biodiversity" types try to use that to advance a bogus claim that the Greek data was "withdrawn." Total BS. It is alive and well and appears specifically in Vilenna's Greek study: HLA genes in Macedonians and the sub-Saharan origin of the Greeks Tissue Antigens 2001: 57: 118–127 Jewish - Palestinian controversies have nothing to do with it.
2-- The Palestinian study also notes that Greeks are related to Africans via cystic fibrosis mutations.
3-- It is true that the data being used is highly variable HLA genes. However the presence of Japanese clustering with south Africans is not as far fetched as it seems. HLA genes are useful in analyzing certain arthritis conditions. There is hard medical data in various HLA studies that indeed show Japanese and south African blacks grouping together in relation to arthritis conditions. See the data below.
4-- Anthro/Archaeo data show the presence of African traits (and remember Africans have a wide variety of traits) in the Neolithic data. The full info has already been posted but here is some anthro/archaeo data affirming the presence of "negroid" traits from early times: quote: "The female of forty-plus years of age from Grave 2 was examined by J. L. Angel who noted what he interpreted as a number of 'negroid' .. traits in the face." The skull is fairly complete, but not enough so for discriminant function analysis." There is marked maxillary prognathism and the orbits may be described as rectangular, traits frequently used in forensic diagnosis of Negro crania... " -- Skeletons of Lerna Hollow. Al B. Wesolowsky. Hesperia, Vol. 42, No. 3. (Jul. - Sep., 1973), pp. 340-351.
"Early Neolithic Macedonia centered on a Dinaric-Mediterranean (type F) average but with an extremely broad nose, more prognathism, and a little more mouth tilt than expected (all, perhaps from negroid development of the incisor region.." -- The people of Lerna: analysis of a prehistoric Aegean population. J.L Angel 1971
"The portrayal on the 'minature fresco' from Thera, and on the other, very fragmentary Aegean frescoes, of diverse stylistic elements- flora a nd fauna, 'negroid' human representations, the riverine setting, of the 'minature fresco,' etc- that seem to be north African, 'Libyan' or Egyptian in origin." --The Aegean and the Orient in the second millennium: proceedings of the 50th anniversary symposium, Cincinnati, 18-20 April 1997
"The inhabitants of the Aegean area in the Bronze Age may have been much like many people in the Mediterranean basin today, short and slight of build with dark hair and eyes and sallow complexions. Skeletons show that the population of the Aegean was already mixed by Neolithic times, and various facial types, some with delicate features and pointed noses, others pug-nosed, almost negroid, are depicted in wall paintings from the 16th century BC..." -- The Home of the Heroes: The Aegean Before the Greeks (1967)
------------------ Scholars also link the Negroid elements to sickle-cell anemia------- QUOTE: "The female from Grave 2 is among those with thickened parietals. It should be pointed out that maxillary prognathsm, one of the skeleton's "Negroid" features, is characteristic both of thalassemia and sickle-cell anemia." -- Skeletons of Lerna Hollow. Al B. Wesolowsky. Hesperia, Vol. 42, No. 3. (Jul. - Sep., 1973), pp. 340-351.
5-- Other elements like Benin Sickle Cell traits are also found among the Greeks and various Africans and some skeletal/cranial studies find African elements in Greece (Angel 1972 for example) QUOTE:
"A late Pleistocene-early Holocene northward migration (from Africa to the Levant and to Anatolia) of these populations has been hypothesized from skeletal data (Angel 1972, 1973; Brace 2005) and from archaeological data, as indicated by the probable Nile Valley origin of the "Mesolithic" (epi-Paleolithic) Mushabi culture found in the Levant (Bar Yosef 1987). This migration finds some support in the presence in Mediterranean populations (Sicily, Greece, southern Turkey, etc.; Patrinos et al.; Schiliro et al. 1990) of the Benin sickle cell haplotype. This haplotype originated in West Africa and is probably associated with the spread of malaria to southern Europe through an eastern Mediterranean route (Salares et al. 2004) following the expansion of both human and mosquito populations brought about by the advent of the Neolithic transition (Hume et al 2003; Joy et al. 2003; Rich et al 1998). This northward migration of northeastern African populations carrying sub-Saharan biological elements is concordant with the morphological homogeneity of the Natufian populations (Bocquentin 2003), which present morphological affinity with sub-Saharan populations (Angel 1972; Brace et al. 2005). In addition, the Neolithic revolution was assumed to arise in the late Pleistocene Natufians and subsequently spread into Anatolia and Europe (Bar-Yosef 2002), and the first Anatolian farmers, Neolithic to Bronze Age Mediterraneans and to some degree other Neolithic-Bronze Age Europeans, show morphological affinities with the Natufians (and indirectly with sub-Saharan populations; Angel 1972; Brace et al 2005), in concordance with a process of demic diffusion accompanying the extension of the Neolithic revolution (Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1994)."
-- F. X. Ricaut, M. Waelkens. (2008). Cranial Discrete Traits in a Byzantine Population and Eastern Mediterranean Population Movements Human Biology - Volume 80, Number 5, October 2008, pp. 535-564
6-- Other cultural/archaeo data testify to the African presence, africans again having a wde range of features
QUOTES "THE FORERUNNERS During the Early Minoan period the population of southern Crete may have included a Negroid element. The presence of such an element from Libya in the Cretan population has been argued on the basis of an inlay of shell now in the Ashmolean Museum. This inlay may have come from an early circular tomb at Ayios Onouphrios. It depects a bearded face, with thick lips and snub nose. Other objects might lead to the same observaton for later periods. Among the faiences showing house fronts (Middle Minoan II)15 there is one in which are seen the prow of a ship and swarthy, prognathous, clearly Negroid people, some steatopygic... It is uncertain, however, what role to assign to the non-Minoan figures in this scene, which it has been suggested, may represent the represent the siege of a seacoast town. Scholars are in greater agreement with respect to their interpretations of the coal black spearmen who appear in a fragment of a fresco, which Evans called The Captain of the Blacks, belonging to Late Minoan 145 II.18 The fresco depicts a Minoan captain, wearing a yellow kilt and a horned cap of skin, who leads, at the double, a file of black men similarly dressed." -- The image of the Black in Western art: Volume 4, Part 1 Jean Vercoutter, Ladislas Bugner, Jean Devisse. 1976
"The Theran is a young man whose black wavy hairm rather thick lips, and nose with reduced platyrrniny are clearly shown. Although he acknowledges that these traits suggest a NEgrito or Nubian, Marinatos avoids precise anthropological definition and concludes that the characteristics seem to indicate an "African".
"An intrepretation of NEgroes in Crete and Pylos as soldiers would have some support in the example of Egypt, with its long tradition of Nubian mercenaries. A striking example, belonging somewhat earlier period that that of the Minoan Captain of the Blacks fresco, is provided by the wooden models of forthy black archers in Cairo, found in a tomb of a prince of Assiut." pg 138
L. Bertholon and E. Chantre have analyzed results of black-white crossings in their detailed anthropoligical study of ancient and modern Tripolitiana, Tunisia, and Algeria. They call attention to the degrees of Negro admixture as evidenced by the extent to which Negroid features appear in mixed North African peoples. R. Bartoccini in his study of the somatic characteristics of anciet Libyans, illustrates his observations on racial crossings between Libyans and Negroes from the interior by pointing to the Negroid nose (broad) and hair (curly or wooly) .."
"Some of the physical features of this type are: dark or black color expressed in a variety of ways, tightly curled platyrrhine nose, and thick, often everted lips. '
"In a scene on a red-figured calyx-krater of the peropd from Canicattoni, now in Syracuse, a female dancer, fully draped, stands on tiptoe. The treatment of the nose, the lips and the tightly curled hair indicates that Negroid features were intended.. the realism and anthropological fidelity of those cited above leave no doubt as to the artists' intent.." pg 171 -- The image of the Black in Western art: Volume 4, Part 1 Jean Vercoutter, Ladislas Bugner, Jean Devisse. 1976
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7.. ADDITIONAL DATA: AFRICAN HAPLOGROUP E FOUND IN GREEKS
QUOTE: "Underhill et al. (2001) showed that the frequency of the YAP+ Y haplogroup commonly referred to as haplogroup E or (III) is relatively high (about 25%) in the Middle East and Mediterranean. This haplogroup E is the major haplogroup found in sub-Saharan Africa (over 75% of all Y chromosomes). SPecifically, Europeans contain the E3b subhaplogroup, which was derived from haplogroup E in sub-Saharan Africa and currently is distributed along the North and East of Africa.. It appears that the 171 AIM test subject of this chapter may recognize the haplogroup E character as West African."
--T. Frudakis. 2006. Molecular photofitting: predicting ancestry and phenotype using DNA Well according to genetic analyses the Greeks are close to 1/4th black carrying 23% African paternal lineages.
Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Originally posted by MissJennifer: There are some East Africans who don't look mixed, however there are others who clearly look mixed. A lot of them mixed with the Arabs. If you look at them there is no way in hell that they are fully Black
Again your statement is based on nothing more than a stereotype of what you think a pure African looks like. The majority of East Africans have had no contact with Arabs at all yet you claim "a lot" of them are mixed with Arabs. Again, what is the basis of your claim?
Posts: 26295 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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MissJennifer is throlling big time. No matter how much current East Africans are admixed or not now. Ancient Egyptians, and also Nubians for that matter, had natural kinky/coiled hair but they used to braid or shave them for various reasons (including shaving to avoid lice, a big problem at the time) and sported braids, natural hair, wigs, extensions, or bald heads.
Even Kushites/Nubians braided and wore wigs as we can see from Ancient Kemites arts images. As do all Africans around the world now for that matter (including native "isolated" African tribes).
So MissJennifer it's time to revise what you think you know about Ancient Egyptians, Kushites and native Africans tribes in general.
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^ Yet kinky hair is looser than peppercorn hair which is actually the tightest. Does this mean kinky hair is the result of admixture between the peppercorn and straight hair?? Both you and Miss Insecure need to accept the fact that indigenous Africans are far more diverse than the stereotypical broad nose, broad lipped, kinky haired "forest negro" of racist anthropology!
I even cited an old source from white Eurocentric Britannica that admitted East African "negroes" can have wavy hair! What the hell is that?!
Posts: 26295 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Yet kinky hair is looser than peppercorn hair which is actually the tightest. Does this mean kinky hair is the result of admixture between the peppercorn and straight hair?? Both you and Miss Insecure need to accept the fact that indigenous Africans are far more diverse than the stereotypical broad nose, broad lipped, kinky haired "forest negro" of racist anthropology!
I even cited an old source from white Eurocentric Britannica that admitted East African "negroes" can have wavy hair! What the hell is that?!
I don't know what is your definitions of those words. But kinky, coiled, peppercorn are for me the same type of hair. Straight wavy hair are another type of hair entirely. A type of hair that cannot be found in most regions of Africa (unlike different nose or skin color types).
As I said earlier. Sure it's possible that some Africans have some straight wavy hair or even white skin, as there can be white people or Indian people with it (all humans comes from Africa after all). Due to genetic mutation. But since most African people got coiled/kinky/peppercorn hair, it would means those wavy haired African people (unless admixed) have been pretty much isolated from the rest of the African family to have hair type entirely different from the rest of the African people. To have a hair phenotype very different from the rest of African people (naturally of course), it must be developed through time, genetic mutation and relative isolation. Almost as relatively isolated as Indians are to Africans. Or Europeans to Indians. Or Asians to Europeans.
So this arc back to making Ancient Egyptians a different kind of Africans than Bantu, West Africans or Great lakes Africans. Africans who by their isolation (or admixture) developed wavy hair. It is untrue. Ancient Egyptians were Africans entirely similar to Africans from Southern Africa, Great Lakes region, West Africa and to a lower degree Sahelian and East Africans (who still have coiled hair BTW). Africans do indeed have a wide range of phenotypes (even excluding those from recent admixture). I never said the contrary.
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