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Ancient Egypt not only experienced a golden age but had an interesting relationship with other nations mainly during the 4th dynastic period. The life size portrait heads represent servants, mercenaries, courtiers, guards, workmen, and even spouses all which are members of the royal family who witnessed the work of the pyramid buildings and the sphinx in lower Egypt.
During the pyramid building age olive oil, servants, cedar products, hard stones such as diorite were acquired either by military expeditions or trade with confederacies in the Near East. Most possibly, these heads not only exist to represent the deceased but to show particular political relations Egypt had with less sophisticated foreign confederacies from Palestine, Aegean and possibly even as far as the Asia minor during the period.
As of now, just over 30 reserve heads have been found with some lost or not found.
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Reserve Head of a Man. (Prince?) Giza; Fourth Dynasty, probably reign of Khufu (ca. 25512528 B.C.E.).
From Giza, tomb G 4440
This one was originally identified as the Nubian/Negroid wife of the tomb owner. Recent study, however, suggests that it probably represents the male owner of the tomb. Although the face has affinities with later depictions of Nubians, it also bears a striking resemblance to statues of Fourth Dynasty kings and undoubtedly represents an Egyptian. The variations among reserve heads probably reflect the diversity in Egypt's population. - Metmuseum
Reserve head of an official? wife? Giza; Fourth Dynasty, probably reign of Khufu (ca. 25512528 B.C.E.).
From Giza, tomb G 4440
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posted
Reserve Head of a woman. Giza; Fourth Dynasty, probably reign of Khufu (ca. 25512528 B.C.E.).
White limestone portrait of a woman with delicate and refined features marked by deep set eyes and a sharply pointed nose; Ears broken, both nostrils chipped. Otherwise perfect.
From Giza, tomb G 4540 A.
Reserve Head of a official?. Giza; Egyptian, Old Kingdom, 26302524 B.C.
Limestone reserve head of an official. It is apparently unfinished. It is chipped at the bridge of the nose. There is a large mass of plaster (?) adhering to the left cheek. It is scored down the back of the head and battered. The head has an elongated shape.
From Giza cemetery, G. 4940, B.
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Reserve Head - Egyptian, Old Kingdom, Dynasty 4, probably reign of Khufu, 25512528 B.C.
Portrait head of a man, splashed with dark spots. The hair is cut close to the scalp, like a tight-fitting cap. Both of his ears are broken. There is a bruise on the right side of the face, near the eye.
From Giza, tomb G 4140.
Reserve Head of Nofer?. Giza; Dyn. 4, late reign of Khufu to mid-, 25512494 B.C.
We may not know exactly what Nofer looked like, but we can be sure that he had a large aquiline nose. This aspect is featured prominently on the north doorjamb from his chapel as well as on the reserve head found at the bottom of the tomb's shaft. The scale with which Nofer is represented on the walls - three times bigger than other figures - and the fourteen different offices enumerated there demonstrate that he was a prominent official in Dynasty 4. Among his titles, both real and honorary, were overseer of the treasury, overseer of the king's regalia, overseer of the arsenal, secretary of all the secrets of the king, estate manager, and royal scribe.
From Giza, tomb G 2110.
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As many of you have already figured out, this entire board consists of ONE sick degenerate that has created ficticious names to talk to itself in. Just a few of these fake names include CLYDE WINTERS, MIKE111,Egmond Codfried, Djehuti, NAMERTHOTH and THE LIONESS. These are just a FEW of the fake names that spend all day talking to itself because the ENTIRE site is comprised of this same ONE sick degenerate that has created fake names to talk to itself ALL DAY LONG! The only REAL and legitimate poster on this site is MYSELF and the rest cannot be trusted! DO NOT CLICK ON ANY OF THE LINKS OR BANNERS ON THIS SITE, unless they are links that I provide for you! There is NOONE on this site that can be trusted but me. The only links on this site that can be trusted are the ones that I provide for you! Here is a link that you can use as a resource and can be trusted! http://www.raceandhistory.com/
When you have finished reading this post check out this site to learn the truth about history and ALL civilzations. Do NOT be fooled by the real history link that the filthy monkey created using the race and history link as a guide. This is the ONLY site that can be trusted http://www.raceandhistory.com/
Isnt it funny how this one little link destroys all of the charts, graphs and pics that the filthy monkey lies to us with? You now understand why the filthy monkey continues to spam the board with photos of modern day populations that had absolutely NOTHING to do with ancient Egypt
The next time one of these degenerates tries to tell you a lie just refer the moonkey to the latest DNA analysis on the ancient Egyptians, and then tell the faggot to crawl back in its cave!
The pig just keeps showing us why these crackers should not exist! They have genetically recessive genes and ion 50 years they will be the minority in BRITAIN!! THAT ALONE SHOULD TELL YOU THAT THEY WILL EVENTUALLY DIE OUT LIKE THE UNATURAL ABOMINATIONS THAT THEY ARE!
Look at the low IQ monkey with its charts and pictures LOL tHE dna analysis does not matter to this monkey, because it lives in a world of fantasy! lol
Folks, the monkey performs at my commend. I am this monkeys master!But then again all one needs to do is take a cursury look at this monkeys youtube page to understand the tenuous grip on reality that this monkey has! LOL http://www.youtube.com/user/phoenician7
When the DNA analysis irrefutably shows that the modern day populations of South Africa, West Africa anmd central Africa are the ancestors of the ancient Egyptians what does a low IQ monkey do???
The low IQ monkey shows pictures and charts and munbles on and on about haplogroups while completely ignoring what the DNA analysis of the ancient Egyptians actually says LOL
the DNA analysis irrefutably shows that the modern day populations of South Africa, West Africa anmd central Africa are the ancestors of the ancient Egyptians. Thats what the DNA says, thats what the science says. This monkey in all of its fake names is very pathetic isnt it?
posted
Head of a woman (Princess Iabtet) - Egyptian, Old Kingdom, Dyn. 4
The reserve head is shown without a wig, revealing a smooth haircut which has been clearly delineated. The hairline disappears above the ears. The hairline on the forehead has been reworked with light cuts of an adze in order to change an original male type of straight hairline into the female cut which is parted in the middle. Despite the damage inflicted to the left side of the head, its traits are well-preserved. The long, narrow face with its severe, straight mouth has its eyes placed high in the skull. - Pelizaeus Museum, Hildesheim
Mastaba G 4650.
Reserve Head of unknown man?. Giza; late Dyn. 4
A reserve-head of a male was found in the debris at bottom of shaft A. Professor E Smith considers the head to represent a foreigner due to the distinctive un-Egyptian type of skulls from the cemetery where this head was found.
From Giza, G 4340 - Cairo Museum JE 46218.
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Reserve Head of unknown man?. Giza; late Dyn. 4
A reserve-head of a male was found in shaft A. Professor E Smith considers this head to also represent a foreigner due to the distinctive un-Egyptian type of skulls from the cemetery where this head was found.
From Giza, G 4640 - Cairo Museum JE 46216.
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Reserve Head found in the tomb of Kanofer. Giza; late Dyn. 4
Head was previously thought to represent the actual owner of the tomb Kanofer. Now this head is believed to be female and most likely represents Kanofer's wife.
From Giza, Tomb of Kanofer (G 1203) - Phoebe A Hearst Museum, Berkeley
Reserve Head of a man? Dynasty 4, ca. 2500 B.C.
From Giza, Mastaba 4350 Discovered by H. Junker, 1914. Kunsthistorisches Museum, Vienna.
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No one is going to tell me those reserve heads depict a snapshot of random Ancient Egyptian diversity. Either the heads are non-realistic, or they represent a select group of Egyptians that weren't representative of the general population.
With the exception of two of the heads, look at how narrow the noses are, and compare the heads with pictures of Europeans or any other group who are known to have narrow averages in nasal index. You won't find them consistently tall and narrow like on most of these heads.
^Male and female German athletes
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: No one is going to tell me those reserve heads depict a snapshot of random Ancient Egyptian diversity. Either the heads are non-realistic, or they represent a select group of Egyptians that weren't representative of the general population.
With the exception of two of the heads, look at how narrow the noses are, and compare the heads with pictures of Europeans or any other group who are known to have narrow averages in nasal index. You won't find them consistently tall and narrow like on most of these heads.
What I observe is that the reserve heads seem to have longer and narrower faces than the majority of Egyptian sculptures. Most other Egyptian statues have short, rounded faces with high cheekbones rather like Sudanese people. I wouldn't go so far as to suggest the reserve heads are fake, but they do seem phenotypically different from most ancient Egyptians. I'd wager a lot of them are of non-Egyptian ethnic extraction.
Posts: 7069 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: [QB] No one is going to tell me those reserve heads depict a snapshot of random Ancient Egyptian diversity. Either the heads are non-realistic, or they represent a select group of Egyptians that weren't representative of the general population.
With the exception of two of the heads, look at how narrow the noses are, and compare the heads with pictures of Europeans or any other group who are known to have narrow averages in nasal index. You won't find them consistently tall and narrow like on most of these heads.
quote:Originally posted by Sahel (Siptah): Most possibly, these heads not only exist to represent the deceased but to show particular political relations Egypt had with less sophisticated foreign confederacies from Palestine, Aegean and possibly even as far as the Asia minor during the period.
Djehuti I can't believe what I'm hearing, way out of line Basically your pals here are saying that the reserve heads don't fit into a"True Negro" expectation. You have got to step in and correct these brothers, they seem to be "slippin' "
next thing you know they will be saying these aren't represantive of the AE's
Sesostris I
Userkaf
Ranofer
Ramesses
Tanwetamani
Menkaure
Rameses
Khafre
^^^^ surely some of them could pass for reerve heads !
posted
This thread is for provenance or contributing discussion of the reserve heads dating to the pyramid building age, not Pharaohs who you believe pass for some reserve heads. If your purpose is to disrupt or say nothing relevant to on topic thread discussion then please observe thread only or post at your own thread.
- Thanks.
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There's a lot of fake arts in Ancient Egyptian archeology. Either "ancient" fakes (aka later Egyptian dynasty including foreign ones like Romans, Assyrians, Greeks, or modern fakes). Also later foreign Egyptian dynasty (and non-foreign obviously) often modified past Egyptian art piece. Both are common phenomena. I'm not sure of their provenance, but those relics looks very Roman to me.
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Reserve Head of man found in the tomb of Snefruseneb 4th - 5th Dynasty
Snefruseneb?
Snefruseneb?
Giza - G 4240 A- Egyptian Museum, Cairo JE 46215
Anonymous female? Reserve Head from Giza - 4th-5th Dynasty
From G 5020-Annex (perhaps originally from G 4240 A tomb of Snefruseneb?)
Posts: 535 | From: From the Darkest of the Abyss | Registered: Apr 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: There's a lot of fake arts in Ancient Egyptian archeology. Either "ancient" fakes (aka later Egyptian dynasty including foreign ones like Romans, Assyrians, Greeks, or modern fakes). Also later foreign Egyptian dynasty (and non-foreign obviously) often modified past Egyptian art piece. Both are common phenomena. I'm not sure of their provenance, but those relics looks very Roman to me.
This is true, many fakes or alterations to Ancient Egyptian archeology has been done for mainly political purposes. Albeit, i do not think these Reserve Heads can be considered fake being that on many of these portraits touches of paint has been found dating to the period they were created. I do believe foreign elements are responsible for the appearance of these heads.
Professor E Smith stated skulls inconsistent with the royal family of khufu, khafre etc have been found buried in mastabas at the royal cemetery along with members of the royal family. Does this indicate most of these people the heads represent worked for the royal court or became members of the royal family through marriage (miscegenation)?
Interestingly, Archeologists have found other non Egyptian artifacts and objects such as pottery, inscriptions, and even jewelry from Palestine to even as far as the Asia minor from where a lot of these heads have been found.
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Reserve Head of a Man. (Prince?) Giza; Fourth Dynasty, probably reign of Khufu (ca. 25512528 B.C.E.).
From Giza, tomb G 4440
and here is Amenhotep III looking similar in a photo with better lighting:
^^^^ Why do we see this so frequently on Egyptsearch? Because he looks remarkably like a West African.
In fact this reserve head and wall painting of Amenhotep stand out because they are not the most typical looking ancient Egyptians, who are we kidding?
______^^^^ look at the shape of this contour carefully. You don't see that exact shape that much. Menes (?)
^^^^ tell me honestly how many statues of Pharoahs look like this. - Exclude Amenhotep, we just covered him and exclude statues with the nose broken off. There are some but I would say not most. .
. Troll Patrol, show them the Beja and Somalis, they be slippin
^^^ Djehuti, tell these bitches, African diversity right here
Unless Lioness et al is contributing to on-topic discussion and info of the portrait heads please do not respond to her with claims which will only serve as an instrument in taking this thread off the course.
Note: If you must respond, please respond to trolls by posting to your own threadPosts: 535 | From: From the Darkest of the Abyss | Registered: Apr 2010
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I'm on topic and I think Djehuti and zarahan would agree, the Reserve heads fall within the realm of African diversity, as Swenet teaches the only thing that is not African is the concave facial profile:
posted
Actually I agree with Swenet. While I don't discount the existence of concave faces among Africans, Swenet is correct that such facial types are vastly more common among Europeans just as prognathic faces are vastly more common among Africans. Of course you are just playing 'Afroloon' advocate by suggesting the Cretan concave face as African. We all know you are just a disingenuous troll.
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: What I observe is that the reserve heads seem to have longer and narrower faces than the majority of Egyptian sculptures. Most other Egyptian statues have short, rounded faces with high cheekbones rather like Sudanese people. I wouldn't go so far as to suggest the reserve heads are fake, but they do seem phenotypically different from most ancient Egyptians. I'd wager a lot of them are of non-Egyptian ethnic extraction.
What's really funny about your wager Truth, is the fact that these heads very heads you call non-Egyptian are the ones that have been held up as quintessentially Egyptian for a long while now in academia and are displayed in museums for everyone to see. In the meantime, there is a large set of the reserve heads which because of their obvious "negroid" features, have been dubbed 'The Foreign Heads'. These foreign heads have been kept in storage in the closets of museums.
Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Actually I agree with Swenet. While I don't discount the existence of concave faces among Africans, Swenet is correct that such facial types are vastly more common among Europeans just as prognathic faces are vastly more common among Africans. Of course you are just playing 'Afroloon' advocate by suggesting the Cretan concave face as African. We all know you are just a disingenuous troll.
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: What I observe is that the reserve heads seem to have longer and narrower faces than the majority of Egyptian sculptures. Most other Egyptian statues have short, rounded faces with high cheekbones rather like Sudanese people. I wouldn't go so far as to suggest the reserve heads are fake, but they do seem phenotypically different from most ancient Egyptians. I'd wager a lot of them are of non-Egyptian ethnic extraction.
What's really funny about your wager Truth, is the fact that these heads very heads you call non-Egyptian are the ones that have been held up as quintessentially Egyptian for a long while now in academia and are displayed in museums for everyone to see. In the meantime, there is a large set of the reserve heads which because of their obvious "negroid" features, have been dubbed 'The Foreign Heads'. These foreign heads have been kept in storage in the closets of museums.
The point about concave facial profiles was an aside, remarks Swenet made about the Minona fisherman.
This thread is about the reserve heads and none of them have concave facial profiles
In fact in this thraed Swenet talks about narrow noses rather than concave facial profiles
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: [QB] No one is going to tell me those reserve heads depict a snapshot of random Ancient Egyptian diversity. Either the heads are non-realistic, or they represent a select group of Egyptians that weren't representative of the general population.
With the exception of two of the heads, look at how narrow the noses are, and compare the heads with pictures of Europeans or any other group who are known to have narrow averages in nasal index. You won't find them consistently tall and narrow like on most of these heads.
do you agree with this new Swenet narrow noses are lacking in Africaness theory? where's zarahan?
look at this: a)
b)
^^^^^ which looks more like these:
Tanwetamani
Ramesses
Hateshepsut
Amenemhat II
Swenet how does this narrow nose theory of yours apply to Ramesses, Hateshepsut, many others?
I know you can put up many Pharoahs who had wider noses, but deal with these please^^^^^
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: No one is going to tell me those reserve heads depict a snapshot of random Ancient Egyptian diversity. Either the heads are non-realistic, or they represent a select group of Egyptians that weren't representative of the general population.
With the exception of two of the heads, look at how narrow the noses are, and compare the heads with pictures of Europeans or any other group who are known to have narrow averages in nasal index. You won't find them consistently tall and narrow like on most of these heads.
^Male and female German athletes
It seems my post has been misinterpreted by our household liar. What I meant to say was that the reserve heads that have come to my attention so far have, as an average, seemingly taller and narrower noses than some other populations who are commonly seen as having a narrow nasal index, such as Europeans, or certain Arab groups, even though we know from the skeletal record that Ancient Egyptians had nasal indices that fell between medium and broad, depending on whether you're looking at Predynastic or Dynastic Egyptians.
^This Ancient Egyptian sample, of which I do not know the provenance, falls in the meso, i.e., Medium range.
EDIT: Actually, the Egyptian sample is modern. Only the black marks are ancient populations.
If the assumption is made that these heads represent realistically depicted random Ancient Egyptians, its kind of peculiar that the noses on the reserve heads should come out taller and narrower than, seemingly, even modern Europeans, who exceeded AE in the frequencies of narrow noses.
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If the assumption is made that these heads represent realistically depicted random Ancient Egyptians, its kind of peculiar that the noses on the reserve heads should come out taller and narrower than, seemingly, even modern Europeans, who exceeded AE in the frequencies of narrow noses. [/QB]
^^^ what about this Darod guy's nose? pretty long top to bottom
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: There's a lot of fake arts in Ancient Egyptian archeology. Either "ancient" fakes (aka later Egyptian dynasty including foreign ones like Romans, Assyrians, Greeks, or modern fakes). Also later foreign Egyptian dynasty (and non-foreign obviously) often modified past Egyptian art piece. Both are common phenomena. I'm not sure of their provenance, but those relics looks very Roman to me.
This is true, many fakes or alterations to Ancient Egyptian archeology has been done for mainly political purposes. Albeit, i do not think these Reserve Heads can be considered fake being that on many of these portraits touches of paint has been found dating to the period they were created.
Beside stylistic analysis and other archeological guesswork there's no datation system that can pinpoint with certainty which dynastic period paints from Ancient Egyptians comes from (as far as I know). Is carbone dating possible or precise enough? Was it performed? Even then foreign (Hyksos) element in Ancient Egypt date from relatively early in Ancient Egypt history.
quote: I do believe foreign elements are responsible for the appearance of these heads.
I believe so too.
quote: Interestingly, Archeologists have found other non Egyptian artifacts and objects such as pottery, inscriptions, and even jewelry from Palestine to even as far as the Asia minor from where a lot of these heads have been found.
We can't know for sure the circumstances that brought them there. Were they brought by an expanding Ancient Kemite empire (spoils of wars, gifts, taxes) or from foreign occupiers of Ancient Egypt?
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: [QB] ^ You have a point especially when considering 25th dynasty (Nubian) portraits like this:
Kushite King Tanwetamani 664-656 B.C., 25th Dynasty Egypt
KingTaharqa (?) Reign 690664 BCE, 25th dynasty
this seems strange, both 25th Dynasty Kushites, but look of entirely different stock
.
Ancient Kemite art, like most African art, are not made to be realistic but more abstract. The majority of African art pieces are more about symbolism than realism. Often displaying youthfulness and vitality, respect to artistic tradition and convention. We can't look at an art piece and say:"those people looks like this". They are only an artistic depictions of those people and their environment.
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: [QB] ^ You have a point especially when considering 25th dynasty (Nubian) portraits like this:
this seems strange, both 25th Dynasty Kushites, but look of entirely different stock
.
Ancient Kemite art, like most African art, are not made to be realistic but more abstract. The majority of African art pieces are more about symbolism than realism. Often displaying youthfulness and vitality, respect to artistic tradition and convention. We can't look at an art piece and say:"those people looks like this". They are only an artistic depictions of those people and their environment.
But people here are speculating that the reserve heads might be foreigners.
As per Kush, Swenet had posted a thread showing highly varied hair types in ancient remains:
if one believes that all of these hair types were indigenous to Africa is one thing but to have all these hair types in one region is very odd. This is actually physical evidence that ancient Nubia was not homogeneous. Is seems like that some of them may have not had long term ancestry in Nubia but were still found at the same site. This doesn't necessarily mean they had ancestry form outside Africa. It seems to suggest they had at least had ancestry from different parts of Africa but came together in Nubian settlements as a nationality. Likewise the statues look different
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ You have a point especially when considering 25th dynasty (Nubian) portraits like this:
this seems strange, both 25th Dynasty Kushites, but look of entirely different stock
. ]
Ancient Kemite art, like most African art, are not made to be realistic but more abstract. The majority of African art pieces are more about symbolism than realism. Often displaying youthfulness and vitality, respect to artistic tradition and convention. We can't look at an art piece and say:"those people looks like this". They are only an artistic depictions of those people and their environment.
But people here are speculating that the reserve heads might be foreigners.
I was replying to your post about the Kushite/Nubian statue of Tanwetamani and Nubian statues in general which exhibit a few different artistic styles. I don't know why you bring back to subject to the foreign reserve heads in your reply to my post which was not about that aspect but about the Kushite figures you posted.
Tanwetamani is the nephew of Taharqa btw.
quote: Likewise the statues look different
Having statues looking different doesn't tell much about the ethnicity since often statues OF THE SAME PERSON look different from each other in Ancient Kemites and Kushites art . As I said, imo, it's about different artistic styles not ethnicity (beside fakes and statues that were modified by following Kings obviously).
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Anonymous Battered Reserve Head - Mid - Late 4th Dynasty
from G 7560
Anonymous Battered Reserve Head - Most of face missing, Mid - Late 4th Dynasty
From Giza, Street G 7500 East of Mastaba G 7530-7540; G 7530 Room A. -Boston Museum
Posts: 535 | From: From the Darkest of the Abyss | Registered: Apr 2010
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Unknown Reserve Head - Old Kingdom, Dynasty 4-5
Head from a limestone statue; eyes originally inlaid; nose lost; remains of a back-pillar. -British Museum
Excavated at Giza by Giovanni Battista Caviglia now resides in the British Museum.
Posts: 535 | From: From the Darkest of the Abyss | Registered: Apr 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: Ancient Kemite art, like most African art, are not made to be realistic but more abstract. The majority of African art pieces are more about symbolism than realism. Often displaying youthfulness and vitality, respect to artistic tradition and convention. We can't look at an art piece and say: "those people looks like this". They are only an artistic depictions of those people and their environment.
Yet even idealistic portrayals are based on reality which is why even if the features don't exactly match those of the actual person that doesn't mean such features in and of themselves are not realistic.
I'm not saying these reserve heads are exact likenesses of the persons they portray, but it's not like their features are somehow unrealistic.
Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: Ancient Kemite art, like most African art, are not made to be realistic but more abstract. The majority of African art pieces are more about symbolism than realism. Often displaying youthfulness and vitality, respect to artistic tradition and convention. We can't look at an art piece and say: "those people looks like this". They are only an artistic depictions of those people and their environment.
Yet even idealistic portrayals are based on reality which is why even if the features don't exactly match those of the actual person that doesn't mean such features in and of themselves are not realistic.
I'm not saying these reserve heads are exact likenesses of the persons they portray, but it's not like their features are somehow unrealistic.
What you call "idealistic" portrayals is not the only artistic style available and actually done by Ancient Kemites or other African artists.
For example, I don't think this figure is meant to be a realistic or an idealistic portrayal of people or someone:
For example, one of the principle they used is making someone in the form of another (either in the form of a God, animal, Kings - when the person portrayed is not a King). A bit like this with the Na'vi (from the movie Avatar) representation of Angelina Jolie.: http://www.pxleyes.com/images/tutorials/ext//4bcec4d331e37.jpg This does not really looks like Angelina Jolie but we can see the principle behind it. We can see it more easily here: http://www.webdesign.org/img_articles/18062/image000.jpg
They do this for abstract, symbolic and traditional purpose.
But I understand your point that Ancient Kemites representation of people like the Na'vi representations above share some similarities with the person they try to portray. That much is evident.
What do you make of Ancient Egyptian art representation of the same person which looks different?
I see 3 possible reasons: 1) One of the representation is fake (and badly copied or copy without knowledge or something). 2) One representation was modified by a later Dynasty. 3) They are 2 representations of the same person but with different artistic styles.
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Amun-Ra The Ultimate, in different Eygptian time periods there have been stylistic trends where people get portrayed as a smiliar type. Coffins tend to be like this. However in looking at the reserve heads we find several different types. Some examples:
^^^ this leads one to believe that the reserve heads were not a stylized idealistic type, each one looks different. like an individual They are considered to be some the earliest examples of portrait sculptures
Below are some intersting items, not a reserve heads it is a plaster cast of an actual human face, like what would later become known in European traditions as the death mask:
Modeled plaster cast of a face, 5th-6th dynasty 2513-2191 BCE Giza, West cemetery, shaft 344/346, from the 1912/13 Excavations by H. Junker Kunsthistorisches Museum.
Another:
Plaster death mask, from Giza. 6th dynasty. Gypsum. H 28.5 cm. IN 2386. Roemer-Pelizaeus Museum Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: What you call "idealistic" portrayals is not the only artistic style available and actually done by Ancient Kemites or other African artists.
For example, I don't think this figure is meant to be a realistic or an idealistic portrayal of people or someone:
I never said realistic portrayals are the only styles used by Egyptians or even Africans as a whole. My point is that the reserve heads to portray realistic features.
quote:For example, one of the principle they used is making someone in the form of another (either in the form of a God, animal, Kings - when the person portrayed is not a King). A bit like this with the Na'vi (from the movie Avatar) representation of Angelina Jolie.: http://www.pxleyes.com/images/tutorials/ext//4bcec4d331e37.jpg This does not really looks like Angelina Jolie but we can see the principle behind it. We can see it more easily here: http://www.webdesign.org/img_articles/18062/image000.jpg
They do this for abstract, symbolic and traditional purpose.
But I understand your point that Ancient Kemites representation of people like the Na'vi representations above share some similarities with the person they try to portray. That much is evident.
What do you make of Ancient Egyptian art representation of the same person which looks different?
I see 3 possible reasons: 1) One of the representation is fake (and badly copied or copy without knowledge or something). 2) One representation was modified by a later Dynasty. 3) They are 2 representations of the same person but with different artistic styles.
I agree with the last (3), though I get your point about artistic symbolism.
Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: If these Africans' heads were sculpted, would you count them as non-African foreigners?
Side-profile views of the men?
Why Liya Kebede? She is slightly prognathous, has a flat nose and a short round face. Reserve Heads are stereotypically portrayed as orthognathous with long narrow heads and average high narrow nasal indexes. Clearly not representative of the A.Egyptian population, including the Pharaohs (khufu,khafre,etc) at the period these heads were made.
Posts: 535 | From: From the Darkest of the Abyss | Registered: Apr 2010
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What do you make of Ancient Egyptian art representation of the same person which looks different?
I see 3 possible reasons: 1) One of the representation is fake (and badly copied or copy without knowledge or something). 2) One representation was modified by a later Dynasty. 3) They are 2 representations of the same person but with different artistic styles.
I agree with the last (3), though I get your point about artistic symbolism.
All three are well known to be true in mainstream egyptology. In egyptology there's a lot of fake arts either built by later dynasty or post-dynastic people. There's also many statues and such modified by later dynasty (and post dynastic people) to give themselves some ancestrality when they conquered Ancient Kemet. Sometime past vestiges were simply destroyed (robbed) all together, even replaced with others. And there's different artistic styles (and purpose of art) in Ancient Kemet which can attest for the physical difference of some statue even representing the same King. This is all well known in mainstream egyptology.
Posts: 2981 | Registered: Jan 2012
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Why Liya Kebede? She is slightly prognathous, has a flat nose and a short round face. Reserve Heads are stereotypically portrayed as orthognathous with long narrow heads and average high narrow nasal indexes. Clearly not representative of the A.Egyptian population, including the Pharaohs (khufu,khafre,etc) at the period these heads were made. [/QB]
Long narrow heads are common to Horn Africans what you sayin?
Look at the reserve heads below (additional related but not reserve heads added) To me there is no sterotypical reserve head they all look different.
Anyway, I ask you, if any of the below were foreigners what might be possible foreign nations that they would be from?
Please indicate on each picture below
A)
B)
C)
D) Plaster death mask, from Giza. 6th dynasty. Gypsum. H 28.5 cm. IN 2386. Roemer-Pelizaeus Museum
with reserve heads we are speaking of the 4th dynasty
this is the most famous, most realistic sculpture of Khafre:
^^^ look at how long and narrow the nose is. **Question: which reserve head including any you posted looks most like Khafre? B) for example in my opinion has no resemblance
below is the only known sculpture of believed by some to be Khufu. It is a 3 inch tall statuette in very poor condition and the proprotion of the head to the body is impossibly too big
^^^ whoever it is this statuette believed by some to be Khufu does not resemble Khafre in the least
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Why Liya Kebede? She is slightly prognathous, has a flat nose and a short round face. Reserve Heads are stereotypically portrayed as orthognathous with long narrow heads and average high narrow nasal indexes. Clearly not representative of the A.Egyptian population, including the Pharaohs (khufu,khafre,etc) at the period these heads were made.
Are you blind or something? Liya shows no prognathism at all but is orthognathous at least judging by the picture above. Her nose is not that flat but is wide at the base (which is typical of Egyptians), her face is actually longer and ovoid.
Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Anyway, I ask you, if any of the below were foreigners what might be possible foreign nations that they would be from?
I can only conjecture at this point. I do believe most of the heads represent those who became nationalized Egyptians. All apart from B and D i suspect have ancestral ties to the region of western Asia.
A) (Nefer), i believe is an Aamu man judging by his unique characteristics, most likely from the eastern part of the Syrian desert. His ancestry could belong to one of the confederates in Mesopotamia. Appointed as an executive assistant to the king Khafre of the 4th dynasty.
C) (anonymous head?) Extensive information regarding the tomb from where this head was discovered is lost. I suspect the ancestry of the represented individual is from the Eastern Mediterranean.
quote: **Question: which reserve head including any you posted looks most like Khafre? B) for example in my opinion has no resemblance
From the frontal view I can see notable resemblances. Despite the different artistic forms.
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quote:^^^ whoever it is this statuette believed by some to be Khufu does not resemble Khafre in the least
The conditions and sizes of both statues are dissimilar. I dont understand how you can make such a comparison. What accepted resemblances are you looking for with regard to the statues of Khafre and Khufu artistically speaking?
Posts: 535 | From: From the Darkest of the Abyss | Registered: Apr 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Sahel (Siptah): The conditions and sizes of both statues are dissimilar. I dont understand how you can make such a comparison. What accepted resemblances are you looking for with regard to the statues of Khafre and Khufu artistically speaking?
.
you made the comparison:
quote:Originally posted by Sahel (Siptah): Reserve Heads are stereotypically portrayed as orthognathous with long narrow heads and average high narrow nasal indexes. Clearly not representative of the A.Egyptian population, including the Pharaohs (khufu,khafre,etc) at the period these heads were made.
quote:Originally posted by Sahel (Siptah):
I can only conjecture at this point. I do believe most of the heads represent those who became nationalized Egyptians.
A) (Nefer), i believe is an Aamu man judging by his unique characteristics, most likely from the eastern part of the Syrian desert. His ancestry could belong to one of the confederates in Mesopotamia. Appointed as an executive assistant to the king Khafre of the 4th dynasty.
C) (anonymous head?) Extensive information regarding the tomb from where this head was discovered is lost. I suspect the ancestry of the represented individual is from the Eastern Mediterranean.
^^^ you are making the argument that in the 4th dynasty the people of Egypt included people with foreign ancestry yet at the same time had said: " Clearly not representative of the A.Egyptian population" So are they represenative of " B.population" of ancient Egypt? keeping in mind Nefer had a prominent position, executive assistant to the king Khafre and that the reserve heads are supposed to represent people close to the royal family if not members
quote:Originally posted by Sahel (Siptah): All apart from B and D i suspect have ancestral ties to the region of western Asia.
B) may be a brother of Snefrusonb
D) Plaster death mask, from Giza. 6th dynasty. Gypsum. H 28.5 cm. IN 2386. Roemer-Pelizaeus Museum
How about the below people do they look foreign to you?
Amenemhat II ( I ?)
Seated scribe
.
. ^^^^also if this is what typical Egyptians looked like they looked more like West Africans than Beja or other NA/Horn types.
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote: Are you blind or something? Liya shows no prognathism at all but is orthognathous at least judging by the picture above.
Maybe its all in the angle.
From this angle she looks prognathic (slightly). I could be wrong.
quote:Her nose is not that flat but is wide at the base (which is typical of Egyptians)
I'm positively sure her nose is short and flat. Not high / tall and narrow as visibly seen on the Reserve Heads.
quote:her face is actually longer and ovoid
..
Her face looks roundish to me. Could be the angle or maybe because she put on weight lol. I can see what you are saying though. Perhaps me seeing her on tv recently could be the explanation as to why i said what i said.
Posts: 535 | From: From the Darkest of the Abyss | Registered: Apr 2010
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posted
@Lioness What are you saying? You just made comparisons between two Pharaohs alone (- Khufu and Khafre) when I was comparing Reserve Heads to each other and the Pharaohs of their time.
quote:you are making the argument that in the 4th dynasty the people of Egypt included people with foreign ancestry, yet at the same time had said: " Clearly not representative of the A.Egyptian population"
Yes and I stand by my statement. The features of the portrait heads are not typical or common of the A.Egypt population dating to their time.
quote:keeping in mind Nefer had a prominent position, executive assistant to the king Khafre and that the reserve heads are supposed to represent people close to the royal family if not members
Nefer's connection with the royal family happened when he was employed and given the position as a prominent official of the King in all places. I do not believe he was a member of the royal family.
quote:^^^^also if this is what typical Egyptians looked like they looked more like West Africans than Beja or other NA/Horn types.
The head represents a North East African, not a West African. Im sure the features of the head is common or similar to millions of those of African descent - north, east, south and west.
Posts: 535 | From: From the Darkest of the Abyss | Registered: Apr 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness: Sahel (Siptah),
Do these particular sculptures look like foreign people to you?
Amenemhat II ( I ?)
Seated scribe
Rameses .
Pretty obvious they are foreigners.
Just consider the Assyrians, when they invaded and conquer people in the middle eastern regions (like Palestine) they usually destroyed everything in sight in term of statues and even get people to leave their village to divide and conquer. They didn't become afro scuptures lovers when they arrived in Ancient Kemet. They destroyed, destroyed, destroyed.
It was a common Modus operandi for them when they conquered other people (obviously mostly from Near Eastern). Other conquerors used to do the same obviously. Then they build stuff, like statue, in their images.
The seated scribe looks fake though (post Dynastic time), not sure about the others.
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