posted
Above I already posted a map of Wavy-Line pottery sites and also an article about the oldest African pottery in Mali above in this thread. Here's another table showing the oldest African pottery sites (although the Mali discovery is not included...).
From Round Heads: The Earliest Rock Paintings in the Sahara (2012) by SoukopovaPosts: 2981 | Registered: Jan 2012
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While a bit off topic, here's a nice resume of the archaeology of the central Sahara just before the Holocene:
quote:Archaeology in the Central Sahara
The archaeology of the period between 20,000 and 10,000 BP in the Central Sahara suffers substantial gaps. The lack of excavations and the impossibility of dating surface material mean that we still do not know which cultures occupied this region in the Late Pleistocene. The period before 20,000 BP in the Sahara was preceded by a humid or semiarid period during which a so called Aterian culture existed (Tillet 1997; Garcea 1998). The Aterian industry is considered typically African (Hachid 1998) and it is diffused across the whole Sahara to the Mediterranean coast. The typical artefacts are tanged points and other peduncular tools. Poorly dated, the Aterian was originally thought to be associated with a humid episode between 40,000 and 20,000 BP. However, recent radiocarbon measuring have provided dates that support an age greater than 40,000, namely from 60,000 to 20,000 (Cremaschi,et al. 1998; Garcea 1998) which suggest that this culture lasted much longer than 20,000 years. The evidence from the Acacus shows that the Aterian may be earlier in the Sahara than in coastal Mediterranean Africa. Considering the wide geographical extension and its long time span, different Aterian groups exhibiting various cultural traditions and diverse adaptations must have occupied North Africa.
The final stage of the Aterian culture is not clear. Most scholars believe it ended with the arrival of the supposed hyperarid period at 20,000 BP, provoking the retreat of the Aterians to other zones outside the Sahara (Tillet 1997; Hachid 1998; Barich 1998a). According to Tillet (1997) the Aterian at Adrar Bous in Niger did not last until the Neolithic since there is, following the Aterian and after a long arid interval, a pre-Neolithic industry, called Ounanian. This represents a new cultural element that is not typologically intermediate between the Aterian and the Neolithic. There remains a blank period between 20,000 and 12,000 BP, which may be explained by the unfavourable arid climatic conditions. However, the same author points out that the Aterian at Adrar Bous dated at 18,000 BP may indicate that life was perhaps still possible in the Sahara due to the existence of a few springs running on the mountain piedmonts. This would imply that the borders of Central Saharan massifs could have served as refuges for Aterian populations (Tillet 1997:19).
From Round Heads: The Earliest Rock Paintings in the Sahara (2012) by Soukopova
posted
Here's more about the Saharan-Sahel-Nile civilization also referred by many other names such as Saharo-Sudanese Neolithic, Saharan-Sudanese Culture, Nilo-Saharans Neolithic, Aqualithic Civilizations, Aquatic civilizations during the Holocene.
Those following quotes are extracted from: Prehistoric Herdsmen by Kobusiewicz and Schild which relates the archeological works at Gebel Ramlah. A site related to the ones at Napta Playa mentionned above and done by the same team. Although I suggest people to read the whole thing.
This allow us to identify and qualify further more the Saharan-Sahel-Nile belt civilization.
quote: Our excavations have enabled us to learn quite a bit about how these people lived. They inhabited settlements that were most likely composed of huts with external stone-laid hearths. Men and livestock alike drank groundwater that was drawn from deep wells. By these late Neolithic times, humans had for thousands of years already known techniques of ceramic-making, smoothing stone tools, and producing quern-stones for grinding. The inhabitants of these settlements attached great importance to adorning and decorating themselves, as is evidenced by the extensive cosmetic artifacts that have been unearthed, including various sorts of pigments, palettes used for processing them, and ornamental containers for storing them. Such late Neolithic people’s chief means of survival came from breeding the local aurochs, long since domesticated, and to a smaller extent from breeding small ruminants, sheep, and goats.
After the annual damp season subsided, these shepherds drove their animals out into the vast plains, now turned green with new grass. For several months of the year they moved from one spot to another, as the savanna became exhausted by grazing. Such migration is evidenced by the scattered remains of thousands of hearths they used at their temporary pastoral campsites.
Livestock was only rarely slain. These people probably ate various sorts of dairy products and presumably also drank the blood of their animals, letting it in small quantities that were easy to regenerate and not harmful to the livestock.
Similar to the lifestyle of the rest of the Saharan-Sahel-Nile civilizations.
quote:Three cemeteries
Due to recent discoveries emerging from the careful investigation of three clan burial grounds, we have been able to learn much about the burial practices, beliefs, and also the social organization of these early herders. [...]
All told, there are 67 individuals buried at the three sites . As the remains are relatively well preserved, the age and sex of the deceased can in most cases be identified. Both men and women were buried here, although the latter were in the majority, and there are also children present. The age of the deceased ranged from infancy to somewhat over 40 years old. There are no signs of any sort of social stratification, usually manifest in terms of differences in the size and construction of graves, or in the quantity and quality of the grave goods they contain. Interestingly, even though an anthropological analysis employing such techniques as a detailed inspection of dental features has shown that two different populations - Mediterranean and sub-Saharan - coexisted here , there are no differences of any sort evident in the way they were buried.
The bad side is that they still exclude Northern Sudanese and Sub-Saharan Africans with so-called Caucasoid features from the "Sub-Saharan" African category. The good side is that those remains does in fact include inner African Sub-Saharan features (the extreme case of them). Either you believe those people are of different unrelated ethnicities or you believe that the so-called diversity represent the inherent physical diversity of African people (aka of Sub-Saharan African people which is a misnomer since many black Africans today live in and above the Sahara) which seems to be more probable.
quote: Neolithic beauty
The exceptional wealth of the grave goods is striking. Many deceased were laid to rest with ceramic pots, sometimes beautifully decorated. It seems that vessels of one particular sort, called tulip beakers, were produced exclusively to be used as grave goods. Such pots were usually placed on the chest or near the head. They were accompanied by sets of cosmetic artifacts consisting of flat stone palettes, circular grinding stones for grinding color-bearing minerals, and also containers made of ivory, decorative bovine horn, sandstone, or ceramic. The latter were used to store pigments obtained from various sorts of dark-red or yellow ochre (iron ore), green malachite, and probably also white limestone and black coal. Some of the palettes have preserved traces of these materials to this very day.
Other means of personal adornment included necklaces strung from beads of various types and sizes, made of agate, carnelian, gneiss, fired clay, bone, or snail shells. The smallest of the beads, about two millimeters in diameter with a hole cut straight through them, are astounding in terms of the precision and technique involved in their production: we do not know how their makers bored holes less than a millimeter in diameter through hard stone. Decorative pendants made of bone are sometimes encountered, as are lip and nose plugs made of bone or turquoise. Also highly popular were bracelets wrought from large mussel shells from the Red Sea, or made of ivory. Bone needles, long gazelle bones fashioned into daggers, and also beautifully produced flint knives and flint or agate arrowheads have also been frequently found. Many graves contain large sheets of mica more than 10 cm across and about 1 cm thick. They must have been highly prized, since they were frequently buried in the vicinity of the head of a body. One such slab was shaped into the form of a fish. This sculpting is so accurate and realistic that one archeozoologist, upon observing it, immediately identified the find as depicting a tilapia fish - a species very frequently encountered in the Nile. This is the oldest known sculpture to have been discovered in Egypt. One of the graves also contained a miniature boomerang, or more precisely a throwing stick for hunting, made of bone with a decorative incision. Many burials were also accompanied by polished pebbles of unknown function, made of quartz, agate, or other types of rock.
A lot of similarities with burial goods of later and contemporary Badarian/Nubian sites.
quote: It is especially interesting that the cemeteries offer indications that the surviving contemporaries of the people buried here took a keen interest in ensuring that their remains were kept well-preserved . Archeologists have found evidence of such an interest in the form of two skulls which have had some of their upper teeth replanted in the lower jaw, or vice versa. Also, the forearm of one woman was found to be wearing four bracelets which were later, at a time when this was already a bare skeleton, fastened in place with small wedges made of small human bones. Another skull was found to have eighteen teeth placed in the eye hole, while another had three teeth in the nasal aperture. Many burials were sprinkled over with sizeable amounts of hematite dust - a custom widespread in prehistoric times, in both the old and the new world. [...]
These careful efforts to “repair” human remains attest to an exceptional concern for keeping bodies whole, in as undamaged a condition as possible. And so, the idea of preserving the body so that the spirit could rest in peace in the afterworld - a notion so typical of the beliefs of the ancient Egyptians - may indeed have originated with the Neolithic peoples inhabiting the ever-drier savanna in what is today the Western Desert, only centuries prior to the emergence of ancient Egypt.
Linkage between the burial practices of the Saharo-Sudanese civilization and the Ancient Egyptian culture. Notions typical of the beliefs of Ancient Egyptians as well modern African people (African Ancestral Religions).
quote: Stone monoliths
In the basin of the dried-up Nabta Playa lake, located only 20 km away, the same people who left behind the graveyards at the foot of Gebel Ramlah erected gigantic clusters of stelae, extending over many square kilometers. [...]
This is where the oldest known Egyptian beliefs, as preserved in the Pyramid Texts, maintained that people went after their death.[...]
In recent years, the expedition has discovered a massive kurgan in the Nabta Playa lake basin, towering over the fields of stone monoliths, now destroyed by the desert winds. Its small burial pit was found to contain the head of a child 2.5 to 3 years old, undoubtedly the offspring of a powerful ruler of the Nubian Desert about 3,500 years BC, just prior to the establishment of the first Egyptian state.
We already know that soon after this date, drought forced the herders to abandon these lands. Digging deeper and deeper wells proved insufficient, and people had go elsewhere in search of water. And so where might they have gone, if not to the relatively close Nile Valley? They brought with them the various achievements of their culture and their belief system. Perhaps it was indeed these people who provided the crucial stimulus towards the emergence of state organization in ancient Egypt
Recalling the stone monolith of Nabta Playa and it's linkage with Ancient Egyptians. And again, showing us how the drying of the Sahara forced people living in the Saharan-sahel-Nile belt toward greener pastures including the Nile Valley. Bringing with them various aspects of their African culture and belief systems. Making them central to the formative years of Ancient Egypt.
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^ Indeed such facts about the origins and formation of Egyptian people and culture have been known by academia for a while now, yet are largely unknown by the general public. Hence, why the fallacy of the division between 'North' and 'Sub-Sahara' and why Egyptians continue to be portrayed in mainstream media as off-white Arabesque people instead of the (black) Africans they truly were.
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
quote: Neolithic beauty
The exceptional wealth of the grave goods is striking. Many deceased were laid to rest with ceramic pots, sometimes beautifully decorated. It seems that vessels of one particular sort, called tulip beakers, were produced exclusively to be used as grave goods. Such pots were usually placed on the chest or near the head. They were accompanied by sets of cosmetic artifacts consisting of flat stone palettes, circular grinding stones for grinding color-bearing minerals, and also containers made of ivory, decorative bovine horn, sandstone, or ceramic. The latter were used to store pigments obtained from various sorts of dark-red or yellow ochre (iron ore), green malachite, and probably also white limestone and black coal. Some of the palettes have preserved traces of these materials to this very day.
Other means of personal adornment included necklaces strung from beads of various types and sizes, made of agate, carnelian, gneiss, fired clay, bone, or snail shells. The smallest of the beads, about two millimeters in diameter with a hole cut straight through them, are astounding in terms of the precision and technique involved in their production: we do not know how their makers bored holes less than a millimeter in diameter through hard stone. Decorative pendants made of bone are sometimes encountered, as are lip and nose plugs made of bone or turquoise. Also highly popular were bracelets wrought from large mussel shells from the Red Sea, or made of ivory. Bone needles, long gazelle bones fashioned into daggers, and also beautifully produced flint knives and flint or agate arrowheads have also been frequently found. Many graves contain large sheets of mica more than 10 cm across and about 1 cm thick. They must have been highly prized, since they were frequently buried in the vicinity of the head of a body. One such slab was shaped into the form of a fish. This sculpting is so accurate and realistic that one archeozoologist, upon observing it, immediately identified the find as depicting a tilapia fish - a species very frequently encountered in the Nile. This is the oldest known sculpture to have been discovered in Egypt. One of the graves also contained a miniature boomerang, or more precisely a throwing stick for hunting, made of bone with a decorative incision. Many burials were also accompanied by polished pebbles of unknown function, made of quartz, agate, or other types of rock.
A lot of similarities with burial goods of later and contemporary Badarian/Nubian sites.
I had no idea about the lip and nose plugs. Another feature linking them to Nilotic tribes.
quote:
quote: It is especially interesting that the cemeteries offer indications that the surviving contemporaries of the people buried here took a keen interest in ensuring that their remains were kept well-preserved . Archeologists have found evidence of such an interest in the form of two skulls which have had some of their upper teeth replanted in the lower jaw, or vice versa. Also, the forearm of one woman was found to be wearing four bracelets which were later, at a time when this was already a bare skeleton, fastened in place with small wedges made of small human bones. Another skull was found to have eighteen teeth placed in the eye hole, while another had three teeth in the nasal aperture. Many burials were sprinkled over with sizeable amounts of hematite dust - a custom widespread in prehistoric times, in both the old and the new world. [...]
These careful efforts to “repair” human remains attest to an exceptional concern for keeping bodies whole, in as undamaged a condition as possible. And so, the idea of preserving the body so that the spirit could rest in peace in the afterworld - a notion so typical of the beliefs of the ancient Egyptians - may indeed have originated with the Neolithic peoples inhabiting the ever-drier savanna in what is today the Western Desert, only centuries prior to the emergence of ancient Egypt.
Linkage between the burial practices of the Saharo-Sudanese civilization and the Ancient Egyptian culture. Notions typical of the beliefs of Ancient Egyptians as well modern African people (African Ancestral Religions).
posted
Another aspect is wondering where does this Saharo-Sudanese/Sahara-Sahel-Nile culture start.
If you consider the ceramic pottery as the starting point of the culture. Ounjougou in Southern Mali seems to be where it does start. It holds the oldest known ceramic pottery in Africa which then spread across the green Sahara.
As the text mentions: The pottery types at Tagalagal in Niger, the earliest known for this region [edit:Central Sahara], were already quite diversified when they first appeared, perhaps confirming the adoption of the use of pottery from another place of origin. That is in Southern Mali part of the "Sahelo-Sudanian" region. Notice the direction: From Southern Mali toward the Central Sahara.
As the text mentions, people from southeastern sub-Saharan zone moved toward the Sahara when the Monsoon rains began to shift northward greening the previously arid Sahara desert of the late Pleistocene.
A cultural influx from the southeastern sub-Saharan zone toward the Sahara could explain the spread of quartz microlithic industries across West Africa. First observed in Cameroon at Shum Laka (30,600-29,000 BC), we next find them in the Ivory Coast at Bingerville (14,100-13,400 BC), in Nigeria at Iwo Eleru (11,460-11,050 BC) and finally at Ounjougou (phase 1: 10th mill. BC).
So the spread of the West African microlithic industries slowly shifted northward to finally reach the Southern Mali location where it evolves into ceramic making neolithic culture which then spread toward the rest of the greening Sahara.
quote: The beginning of the Holocene at Ounjougou
Introduction
The Ogolian, an extremely arid episode beginning in West Africa around 23,000 BP, is represented at Ounjougou by a significant sedimentary and archaeological hiatus. It is not until the return of humid climatic conditions at the beginning of the Holocene that we once again find evidence for humans in this part of the continent. It is thus in a context of heavy rains and recolonization of the vegetal cover, at the beginning of the 10th millennium BC, that a new population was established on the Bandiagara Plateau. At the Ounjougou site complex, several sites have made it possible to define two occupation phases chronologically situated between 10,000 and 7,000 cal BC. Strikingly, the presence of pottery is attested from the first half of the 10th mill. BC. This is the earliest evidence for pottery in sub-Saharan Africa. The use of stone milling material is confirmed from the 8th mill. BC by the discovery of a millstone and grinder.
Issues and objectives
It is thus within a context of climatic and environmental change, of migrations and repopulation of a region of Africa abandoned for several thousand years that the craft of making pottery and the use of milling emerged. Our aims are to better understand the material culture of these Early Holocene populations, to determine their origins and identify their development, and finally to clarify the paleoenvironmental context in which they were established and evolved. Understanding of the mechanisms in which humans invented pottery and milling tools clearly lie at the heart of our research problem. Our main objective is therefore to excavate stratified sites located in the valley base, geologically in situ, to obtain the broadest sample possible of material remains, to situate the site in relative and absolute chronologies and to place them in relation to the geomorphological and archaeobotanical sequence. By comparison to the rare contemporaneous assemblages in West and Saharan Africa, we hope to retrace the route of humans after the vegetation had returned at the beginning of the Holocene. Finally, via systematic survey, we hope to discover contemporaneous site yielding complementary data on these populations, in terms of subsistence economy or the use of space.
The 10th and 9th millennia BC (Phase 1 of the Holocene of Ounjougou)
It is at the site of Ravin de la Mouche that we identify the first Holocene sedimentary sequence, in the form of a channel cut into the yellow Pleistocene silts, infilled with coarse sand and gravel. The chronological placement of the upper layers of this first group has been determined by 12 radiocarbon dates and 3 OSL dates between 9,400 and 8,400 cal BC. The lithic industry discovered in stratigraphic position shows that unidirectional reduction predominates, but other techniques, such as bipolar reduction on anvil and multidirectional, were also employed. Quartz was the main raw material used and the typological range includes small retouched flakes, borers and especially an original type of bifacial armatures with covering retouch.
Three ceramic sherds are linked to this industry. They all come from the base of the HA1A stratigraphic unit. Their thickness ranges between 4.5 and 7 mm. The only way is refundable on board simple hemispherical bowl of 21 cm diameter. One sherd shows a roulette decoration, which could not be further identified. Microscopic analysis of two samples revealed that they contain a silicate matrix, without carbonates, with 20-30% of non-plastic inclusions. These consist mainly of single crystal quartz well rounded with an edge of recrystallization, with a fine to very fine diameter. These quartz are quite similar to those found in local sandstone and clays. Mineralogical analysis of the nearest clay deposits by X-ray diffraction revealed the presence of kaolinite, whose absence in ceramics indicates a cooking temperature above 550 � C. The pastes were prepared using non-calcareous clays with little prior treatment, as shown by their texture somewhat chaotic. The serial structure indicates that no temper has been added. Only one sherd contains fragments of grog, with a maximum diameter of 4 mm. However, this low percentage may indicate involuntary incorporation during the preparation of the paste.
The 8th millennium BC (Phase 2 of the Holocene of Ounjougou)
The next part of the Holocene sequence is documented at two principal sites – the Ravin du Hibou and Damatoumou. The archaeological layers are chronologically situated by an OSL date and 7 radiocarbon dates (8,000-7,000 cal BC). The lithic industry is characterized by reduction of quartz cobbles by unidirectional, bidirectional, multidirectional, peripheral and bipolar on anvil reduction techniques. The assemblage is composed mainly of microlithic tools: borers, backed points, notches, denticulates, sidescrapers, retouched flakes and geometric microliths.
The next part of the Holocene sequence is documented at two principal sites – the Ravin du Hibou and Damatoumou. The archaeological layers are chronologically situated by an OSL date and 7 radiocarbon dates (8,000-7,000 cal BC). The lithic industry is characterized by reduction of quartz cobbles by unidirectional, bidirectional, multidirectional, peripheral and bipolar on anvil reduction techniques. The assemblage is composed mainly of microlithic tools: borers, backed points, notches, denticulates, sidescrapers, retouched flakes and geometric microliths.
West African and Saharan context
The ceramics and grinding material from phases 1 and 2 at Ounjougou are the earliest evidence of this type currently known in sub-Saharan Africa. In our present state of knowledge, this pottery at Ounjougou may have resulted from a center of invention in the current Sahelo-Sudanian zone with exportation somewhat later toward the Central Sahara, where it is known from the 9th millennium BC. The pottery types at Tagalagal in Niger, the earliest known for this region, were already quite diversified when they first appeared, perhaps confirming the adoption of the use of pottery from another place of origin. The lithic industry of phases 1 and 2 is characterized by southern affinities, including quartz microliths using bipolar reduction on anvil proper to the "sub-Saharan microlithic technocomplex" defined by K. MacDonald, except for the bifacial armatures which are only found in the north, in the Saharan zone, at slightly younger sites. A cultural influx from the southeastern sub-Saharan zone toward the Sahara could explain the spread of quartz microlithic industries across West Africa. First observed in Cameroon at Shum Laka (30,600-29,000 BC), we next find them in the Ivory Coast at Bingerville (14,100-13,400 BC), in Nigeria at Iwo Eleru (11,460-11,050 BC) and finally at Ounjougou (phase 1: 10th mill. BC).
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: [QB] ^ Indeed such facts about the origins and formation of Egyptian people and culture have been known by academia for a while now, yet are largely unknown by the general public. Hence, why the fallacy of the division between 'North' and 'Sub-Sahara'
The proper distinction is between the Mahgreb and the Sahel beacause the Sahel is comprised of ancestry which is primarily Sub Saharan African while the Maghreb on average is not.
Egyptian civilization is a different situation because it is based on the Nile river which extends further south into Sub Saharan Africa as well as being a country with the only land route to Asia.
For instance someone could raise the issue of who were the Sahelians? But no one seems to care to. And if someone said they are primarily African somebody else could say "but they are North African and North Africans have significant ancestry from outside of Africa"
That is why the term "North African" should be used less or anot at all in many cases. It is too broad. In many cases it is best to talk about the Maghreb, the Sahel and Egypt instead of "North Africa"
But I think people want "North Africa" to be used so they have the flexibility to say what ever is said about it is wrong and this can be done by people of different viewpoints.
Posts: 43002 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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"Ancient Egyptian civilisation - not primarily black, it was mixed. Moorish civilisation - not primarily black (even though Moor means black) it was mixed. Greek civilisation, primarily white. Roman civilisation, primarily white." - Lioness
Posts: 4254 | From: dasein | Registered: Jun 2009
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^^^^ can only operate not using fake quotes, fraud knows nothing about the topic, the green Sahara, seeks attention
Posts: 43002 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Aren't you one of those interested in portraying AE "as off-white Arabesque people instead of the (black) Africans they truly were"? Now Lioness produce denies he said Roman civilization was primarily white etc etc. LOL
Posts: 4254 | From: dasein | Registered: Jun 2009
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quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: Aren't you one of those interested in portraying AE "as off-white Arabesque people instead of the (black) Africans they truly were"? Now Lioness produce denies he said Roman civilization was primarily white etc etc. LOL
another fake quote uisng his own terms "off-white" and " Arabesque"
Even if you had proper quotes from me I won't address it here. Nobody cares about you following me around here. They want to talk about the The Sahara During the Holocene/Green Sahara. It's a topic you don't care about and will not read about.
Posts: 43002 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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^ No, but you seem to be taking up the lyinass habit of making false claims now. When have I ever been interested in portraying ancient Egyptians as off-white people shown in mainstream media?? Even Will Smith would fit the part of pharaoh than the traditional actors. LOL
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: The proper distinction is between the Mahgreb and the Sahel because the Sahel is comprised of ancestry which is primarily Sub Saharan African while the Maghreb on average is not.
But we are not talking about the modern day populace of these regions, lyinass but the Holocene period! If you notice there was no 'Sahel' during the Holocene Wet Phase when the Sahara was green.
quote:Egyptian civilization is a different situation because it is based on the Nile river which extends further south into Sub Saharan Africa as well as being a country with the only land route to Asia.
Different situation in what way? Although I recall it was US who kept telling you that the Nile Valley had a different population history than the Maghreb despite you incessant effort to connect the Maghreb to Egypt.
quote:For instance someone could raise the issue of who were the Sahelians? But no one seems to care to. And if someone said they are primarily African somebody else could say "but they are North African and North Africans have significant ancestry from outside of Africa"
That is why the term "North African" should be used less or not at all in many cases. It is too broad. In many cases it is best to talk about the Maghreb, the Sahel and Egypt instead of "North Africa"
But I think people want "North Africa" to be used so they have the flexibility to say what ever is said about it is wrong and this can be done by people of different viewpoints.
Again, the issue is about populations during the Holocene period when there was no 'Sahara' and thus no division. A good question would be why is it folks don't make such a division of Europe between Mediterranean Europe and Nordic Europe, even though the former has greater African ancestry than the latter and what about the Alpine region in between? Don't Mediterraneans also have Alpine ancestry along with immigrant African ancestry??
Posts: 26349 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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" We propose that present-day ancestry in North Africa is the result of at least three distinct episodes: ancient “back-to-Africa” gene flow prior to the Holocene, more recent gene flow from the Near East resulting in a longitudinal gradient, and limited but very recent migrations from sub-Saharan Africa.
Henn, 2012"
Swenet accepts this as possibly true. He's the master
Posts: 43002 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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^"As further evidence of my mulatto theory and ancient interracial sex "back-to-Africa" Asians into North Africa = no blacks" - Lioness
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: another fake quote uisng his own terms "off-white" and " Arabesque"
My own terms? LOL It's Mary's. The Jackass accuses others of not being interested in the topic when he's the one not following the threads. Pure troll.
Posts: 4254 | From: dasein | Registered: Jun 2009
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quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: ^"As further evidence of my mulatto theory and ancient interracial sex "back-to-Africa" Asians into North Africa = no blacks" - Lioness
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: another fake quote uisng his own terms "off-white" and " Arabesque"
My own terms? LOL It's Mary's. The Jackass accuses others of not being interested in the topic when he's the one not following the threads. Pure troll.
posted
Aren't you suppose to be at the Trayvon vigil? Or was it the dead druggie diva? lol
Posts: 4254 | From: dasein | Registered: Jun 2009
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"We propose that present-day ancestry in North Africa is the result of at least three distinct episodes: ancient “back-to-Africa” gene flow prior to the Holocene, more recent gene flow from the Near East resulting in a longitudinal gradient, and limited but very recent migrations from sub-Saharan Africa.
Henn, 2012" Swenet accepts this as possibly true. He's the master
I'd prefer to hear it from Swenet himself as you have the penchant for dishonestly proclaiming what others say.
More recent gene flow from the Near East reflecting a longitudinal gradient is obvious from the historical facts of Arab-Islamic conquest. What I question are the other claims. Exactly what evidence is there of a "Back-to-Africa" even prior to the Holocene?? And how could there be very limited recent migrations from Sub-Sahara when during the Holocene there was no Sahara?? Appeal to authority is not an answer whether that authority is Hen et. al or Swenet. Posts: 26349 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Here's a very interesting document about the Ancient Saharan civilization discussed in this thread and the formation of Ancient Egypt. I will post the abstract and document link first then discuss it:
quote: Dr. Alain Anselin (University of Antilles-Guyane) Some notes about an early African pool of cultures from which emerged Egyptian civilization.
Abstract
Using primarily linguistic evidence, and taking into account recent archaeology at sites such as Hierakonpolis/Nekhen, as well as the symbolic meaning of objects such as sceptres and headrests in Ancient Egyptian and contemporary African cultures, this paper traces the geographical location and movements of early peoples in and around the Nile Valley. It is possible from this overview of the data to conclude that the limited conceptual vocabulary shared by the ancestors of contemporary Chadic-speakers (therefore also contemporary Cushitic-speakers), contemporary Nilotic speakers and Ancient Egyptian-speakers suggests that the earliest speakers of the Egyptian language could be located to the south of Upper Egypt or, earlier, in the Sahara . The marked grammatical and lexicographic affinities of Ancient Egyptian with Chadic are wellknown, and consistent Nilotic cultural, religious and political patterns are detectable in the formation of the first Egyptian kingships. The question these data raise is the articulation between the languages and the cultural patterns of this pool of ancient African societies from which emerged Predynastic Egypt .
posted
Let us examine this citation lyinass brought up.
" We propose that present-day ancestry in North Africa is the result of at least three distinct episodes: ancient “back-to-Africa” gene flow prior to the Holocene, more recent gene flow from the Near East resulting in a longitudinal gradient, and limited but very recent migrations from sub-Saharan Africa.--Henn, 2012"
Does she even know what the Holocene even is? It is an epoch that began 11.5 thousand years ago. So what exactly is this Asian gene-flow that happened prior to the Holocene? No doubt she is referring to U6 though U6's presence in Africa is dated to 30,000 years ago allegedly resulting from people from Asia who also brought R0 into Sudan and East Africa before that 50,000 years ago. And how did these Asians (from Southwest Asia i.e. Levant and Arabia right next to Africa) look like?? Did they look any different from African right next door to them? Were they 'white' enough to produce light-skinned 'mulatto' looking offspring??
Answer: NO, not according to the skeletal records for that time!
Nazlet Khater Man
Nazlet Khater is the oldest known modern human of Egypt dating to 33,000 years bp. That's at around the same time U6 is said to have arose in Africa and well after R0 arrived in Africa. R0 is common in East Africa both in the Sudan as well as the Horn.
In the sum, the results obtained further strengthen the results from previous analyses. The affinities between Nazlet Khater, MSA, and Khoisan and Khoisan related groups re-emerges. In addition it is possible to detect a separation between North African and sub-saharan populations, with the Neolithic Saharan population from Hasi el Abiod and the Egyptian Badarian group being closely affiliated with modern Negroid groups. Similarly, the Epipaleolithic populations from Site 117 and Wadi Halfa are also affiliated with sub-Saharan LSA, Iron Age and modern Negroid groups rather than with contemporaneous North African populations such as Taforalt and the Ibero-maurusian. -- Pierre M. Vermeersch (Author & Editor), 'Palaeolithic quarrying sites in Upper and Middle Egypt', Egyptian Prehistory Monographs Vol. 4, Leuven University Press (2002).
Both hypotheses are compatible with the hypothesis proposed by Brothwell (1963) of an East African proto-Khoisan Negro stock which migrated southwards and westwards at some time during the Upper Pleistocene, and replaced most of the local populations of South Africa. Under such circumstances, it is possible that the Nazlet Khater specimen is part of a relict population of this proto-Khoisan Negro stock which extended as far north as Nazlet Khater at least until the late part of the Late Pleistocene. --- The Position of the Nazlet Khater Specimen Among Prehistoric and Modern African and Levantine Populations, Ron Pinhasi, Departent of Biological Anthropology, University of Cambridge, U.K., Patrick Semal, Belgian Institute of Natural Sciences, Belgium; Journal of Human Evolution (2000) vol. 39.
This makes you wonder how the people of Southwest Asia at that time looked. Just how did the Levantine and Arabian folk during and prior to Nazlet Khater??
Again, they weren't light-skinned 'Caucasians'! LOLPosts: 26349 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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^^^ The skeleton is African in origin no doubt but and thus he's probably not from the Haplogroup U6. He's probably from an African hg.
Haplogroup U6 is descendent from the Haplogroup U which originate in Eurasia and Hg U is descended from haplogroup R which also originate outside Africa (South Asia possibly). It's not what you believe but it's what geneticists believe (and they seem to be right looking at those hg distribution frequency in the world).
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I very much doubt there are really ANY true West Asian HG that back-migrated to Africa.
======= MtDNA Profile of West Africa Guineans: Towards a Better Understanding of the Senegambia Region(2004)
Alexandra Rosa1,2, Anto¢¥ nio Brehm2,∗, Toomas Kivisild1, Ene Metspalu1 and Richard Villems1
European Lineages: U5
Ten individuals out of 372 samples, all related to Fulbe groups, carried mtDNA variants typical of western Eurasia, particularly Europe. Within these mtDNAs belonging to haplogroup U5 nine Fulanis share one particular HVS-I haplotype. BOTH HAPLOTYPES ARE ONLY ONE MUTATIONAL STEP AWAY FROM A COMMON NODE WIDESPREAD IN EUROPE
TRANSLATION: The Fulanis are one mutational step away from being European¡¦.no! no! The European women are one mutational step away from being Fulanis'.!!!!
Although U5 is one of the most frequent mtDNA variants among western Eurasians (about 460 sequences in our mtDNA HVS-I database) no exact matches to the two Guinean haplotypes were found, as would be expected in the case of recent admixture. On the other hand, the Fulani U5 haplotype appears in a data set of West Africans (Wolof and Serer, Rando et al. 1998) and in Moroccans (unpublished data), pointing to the existence of a common African founder lineage of haplogroup U5..Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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U3 is African U6 is African U5 is African H1 is african HV is African.
All have highest frequency, age and diversity IN Africa.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: " We propose that present-day ancestry in North Africa is the result of at least three distinct episodes: ancient “back-to-Africa” gene flow prior to the Holocene, more recent gene flow from the Near East resulting in a longitudinal gradient, and limited but very recent migrations from sub-Saharan Africa.
Henn, 2012"
Swenet accepts this as possibly true. He's the master
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European woman are African migrants through North Africa across Iberia and Sardinia.
Oldest U5 is found in Africa followed by Sardinia.
Oldest H1 is found in Africa followed by Sardinia and Iberia.
Know your citations.
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quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: The skeleton is African in origin no doubt but and thus he's probably not from the Haplogroup U6. He's probably from an African hg.
Haplogroup U6 is descendent from the Haplogroup U which originate in Eurasia and Hg U is descended from haplogroup R which also originate outside Africa (South Asia possibly). It's not what you believe but it's what geneticists believe (and they seem to be right looking at those hg distribution frequency in the world).
Actually skeletal morphology and haplogroup are independent of each other. One does not correlate with the other. Haplogroup tells you lineage and probable origins of a lineage but not how people who originated that lineage looked like. Skeletal morphology tells you how a people looked like but not their lineage which haplogroup does. For example, there are people in Europe who carry recent African lineages meaning they have admixture from recent African ancestors yet you wouldn't know from their skeletal morphology which may look completely European.
As for Nazlet Khater, we don't know what haplogroup he possessed however my point was that his morphology gives us a clue what the people in his area looked like. According to the authors I just cited his morphology was widespread throughout North and East Africa, the areas where said 'Eurasians' entered during that time. Thus IF these clades really did originate in Eurasia, they were possessed by folk who were obviously NOT of so-called 'Caucasian' morphology. That is my point entirely.
The Euronut Farthead tried to downplay or rather dismiss entirely the "negroid" morphology of the skull attributing the morphology instead to "Capoid" that is Khoisan race, yet the authors I cited were very clear that Nazlet Khater types possessed features of both 'Capoid' and 'Negroids' to the point that Brothwell postulated they were the ancestors of both if ancestral to any population in Africa. As far as U6, though it has its highest frequency and diversity in the Maghreb it is also found in northeast Africa, and is found as far south as Kenya. So if one is going to claim 'Eurasian' ancestry in North Africans one must do the same for indigenous Kenyans as well!
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: While the cats away.....
Ignorance is bliss.
U3 is African U6 is African U5 is African H1 is african HV is African.
All have highest frequency, age and diversity IN Africa.
I know about U6 and read about U5 but where is your evidence for U3, H1, and HV?
Posts: 26349 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: While the cats away.....
Ignorance is bliss.
U3 is African U6 is African U5 is African H1 is african HV is African.
All have highest frequency, age and diversity IN Africa.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: " We propose that present-day ancestry in North Africa is the result of at least three distinct episodes: ancient “back-to-Africa” gene flow prior to the Holocene, more recent gene flow from the Near East resulting in a longitudinal gradient, and limited but very recent migrations from sub-Saharan Africa.
Henn, 2012"
Swenet accepts this as possibly true. He's the master
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: European woman are African migrants
quote:Originally posted by Djehutie:
LOL
Any haplogroup can be predecessor back-tracked to Africa Therefore you will use that to suggest there is no such thing as back migrations. Any haplogroup named you will say is African, that's your game, except token ones very small obscure populations of lesser historical significance you might try to throw in. By your logic modern Europeans are African Also read some of the new 2013 DNA articles I recently posted
-Genome-Wide Diversity in the Levant 2013
-Pastoral and farmer populations of the African Sahel:Y chromosomes 2013
posted
^ Yes, I can't help but get the feeling Xyzman wants to deny any back-migrations to Africa during prehistoric times. It wasn't like there was a barrier that prevented peoples in Asia from returning to Africa. Really it shouldn't make a difference anyway because these Southwest Asians were no different from their African brethren right next door.
Again, I cite Keita.
The issue of how much Paleolithic migration from the Near East there may have been is intriguing, and the mitochondrial DNA variation may need to be reassessed as to what can be considered to be only of "Eurasian origin" because if hunters and gatherers roamed between the Saharan and supra-Saharan regions and Eurasia it might be difficult to determine exactly "where" a mutation arose.-- Keita, In Hot Pursuit of Language in Prehistory ed. John Benjamins. (2008)
As Keita pointed out, during paleolithic times peoples were constantly moving back and forth between Eurasia, specifically Southwest Asia and Africa. Thus you have clades in Asia dating prior to the Holocene that are African in origin as well such as mtDNA hg M1 and NRY hg E2. Funny how the Euronuts hate to point out the African ancestry among Asiatics. Also, why are Euronuts in such a rush to claim North Africans using maternal lineages but not Sub-Saharan Africans using paternal lineages?--Why aren't they as enthusiastic to share 'Eurasian' kinship with hg R1 males of Cameroon?
This is why I subscribe to Takruri's way of thinking to break free of any Eurocentric boundaries or limitations. Why is Southwest Asia i.e. the Levant and Arabia considered 'Asian' and not an extension of Africa yet 'Europe' is often viewed as a separate continent entirely even though it's obviously part of Asia. It's just blatant double-think. Posts: 26349 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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The problem is many cite and read stuff and have no clue what it means. Clear eg is the Henn paper you keep citing.
The title of the Henn study is not backed-up in the body of the document. Henn concluded that only nrY and other Uniparental study should be used to confirm their thesis. But we know the results of those markers already.
DNATrbies used extensive, live data(SNP) and proved Henn wrong. Henn data was limited.
In case you missed it both Henn and DNATribes used autosomal SNPs as their markers. However Henn used a population with clear African substrate(Qatar) and was still inconclusive. They tried to "fix" the result. Using the Levant was out of the question.
DNATribes got it right. There is no Levant admixture or back migration in the Sahara. However there is clear South Saharan and Saharan admixture in Arabia.
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In the future when DNA profiling is standard medical proceedure people might start idenitifying themselves primarily by haplogroup letter names and geography and phenotype/race implications taking a lesser prominance. Of course something new some sort of haplogroup bigotry might evolve because we know how humans act, competative by nature
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I think I can co-sign with Southwest Asia being an extension of Africa.
"High atop a dusty plateau on the Arabian Peninsula, archaeologist Jeffrey Rose picked up a rock, saw something surprising, and started asking questions that could change history. His unusual discoveries in southern Oman help shape new theories about when early humans may have exited Africa, who those pioneers were, and what route they took on the first stage of their journey to every corner of the Earth.
In the late 1990s geneticists identified mitochondrial DNA signatures suggesting that the first humans to leave Africa may have traveled through Ethiopia to Yemen and Oman. Scientists theorized they were beachcombers who followed the coastline. Rose arrived in the area, eager to test the theory that Arabia was the gateway out of Africa by searching for archaeological evidence. "We surveyed for years," he recalls. "Stone Age artifacts littered the landscape; virtually any place I stopped the car, I found a Paleolithic site. But none of it showed a connection to Africa; and along the coast we found no evidence of humans at all."
He and his international team of scientists returned to Oman in 2010, and on the final day of their surveying season, at the last site on their list, "we hit the jackpot." The find was a very specific stone tool technology used by the "Nubian Complex," nomadic hunters from Africa's Nile Valley. Nubian technology is a unique method of making spear points that was previously only known from North Africa. Rose's team ultimately discovered over a hundred workshop sites where these artifacts were manufactured en masse. "It was scientific euphoria," he describes.
The Nubian origin and inland location of the discovery were equally unexpected. "We had never considered the link to Africa would come from the Nile Valley, and that their route would be through the middle of the Arabian Peninsula rather than along the coast," Rose notes. "But that's what the scientific process is all about. If you haven't proven yourself wrong, you haven't made any progress. In hindsight, the Nubian connection makes perfect sense.
The Nile Valley and Oman's Dhofar region are both limestone plateaus, heavily affected by perennial rivers. It's logical that people moved from an environment they knew to another one that mirrored it. At the time when I'm suggesting they expanded out of Africa, southern Arabia was fertile grassland. The Indian Ocean monsoon system activated rivers, and as sand dunes trapped water, it became a land of a thousand lakes. It was a paradise for early humans, whose livelihood depended upon hunting on the open savanna."
Accurately dating Rose's Nubian discovery was made possible by optically stimulated luminescence (OSL) technology, which can determine the last time a single buried grain of sand was exposed to light by measuring the amount of energy trapped inside of it. The technique revealed the tools to be 106,000 years old, exactly the same time the Nubian Complex flourished in Africa. This also means Rose's theory places the first exit from Africa much earlier than previously believed. "Geneticists have shown that the modern human family tree began to branch out 60,000 years ago. I'm not questioning when it happened, but where. I suggest the great modern human expansion to the rest of the world was launched from Arabia rather than Africa."
Rose's passion for the past extends beyond fieldwork to how science can be shared with the public. "A few years ago, I was going through an incredibly dramatic wadi (valley) in Oman, hours off the beaten track, and I thought, wouldn't it be great if we could share this place with other people, I bet they'd love to see this." He began shooting short videos every few days and chronicling his work via Twitter updates and website posts. "You can't put into words how unique the landscape here is. Arabia feels like this romantic lost world filled with mysterious ruins; it's a living museum of artifacts. Everyone on Earth had ancestors who passed through this place; why wouldn't you want to show it to people?"
"I'm like a kid in a candy store, there's so much to learn; and now we have so many ways to disseminate information—the Internet, blogs, myriad TV channels, documentaries—it's all making science more interesting, digestible, and relevant to the public," he says. "There's no reason for archaeology and history to be stuffy. How could you not want to know how you got here? It's been said that there's more diversity within a group of 55 chimpanzees than in the entire human population. I think if we help people conceptualize how tiny the genetic distance is between them, it might even help bridge some of the tensions in our world today."
Trying to explain what keeps him based in a desert truck stop, digging through sand, and lugging 100-pound loads of rocks in 100-degree heat, Rose says, "It's like an itch you absolutely have to scratch. An answer you have to find. Who lived here? What were they doing? Are these the people who went on to colonize the entire world? Now that we know it was the Nubians who spread from Africa, I want to know why them in particular? What was it about their technology and culture that enabled them to expand so successfully? And what happened next? That's one of the defining characteristics of our species—we've always looked to the beginning and wanted to understand how we got here. That's what it means to be human."
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You are really behind the times. As I said many here don't know what's up. Gattaca is here.
NJ is working on a similar law.
===
California Law Would Extend Genetic Non-Discrimination Protections
Published by ScottH under news
UPDATE (9/7/2011) California Governor Jerry Brown signed into law civil rights protections in the state to prevent discrimination against people based on their genetic information.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: In the future when DNA profiling is standard medical proceedure people might start idenitifying themselves primarily by haplogroup letter names and geography and phenotype/race implications taking a lesser prominance. Of course something new some sort of haplogroup bigotry might evolve because we know how humans act, competative by nature
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: However Henn used a population with clear African substrate(Qatar) and was still inconclsive. They tried to "fix" the result. Using the Levant was out of the question.
DNATribes got it right. There is no Levant admixture or back migration in the Sahara. However there is clear South Saharan and Saharan admixture in Arabia. [/QB]
Arabians are part Saharan and a larger part not African. Magrebians are in large part of the non-African element of Arabians, Hap J Sahelian Saharans are only a small part the non-African element of Arabians.
Abstract People of the Qatar peninsula represent a relatively recent founding by a small number of families from three tribes of the Arabian Peninsula, Persia, and Oman, with indications of African admixture. To assess the roles of both this founding effect and the customary first-cousin marriages among the ancestral Islamic populations in Qatar's population genetic structure, we obtained and genotyped with Affymetrix 500k SNP arrays DNA samples from 168 self-reported Qatari nationals sampled from Doha, Qatar. Principal components analysis was performed along with samples from the Human Genetic Diversity Project data set, revealing three clear clusters of genotypes whose proximity to other human population samples is consistent with Arabian origin, a more eastern or Persian origin, and individuals with African admixture. The extent of linkage disequilibrium (LD) is greater than that of African populations, and runs of homozygosity in some individuals reflect substantial consanguinity. However, the variance in runs of homozygosity is exceptionally high, and the degree of identity-by-descent sharing generally appears to be lower than expected for a population in which nearly half of marriages are between first cousins.
Based on surnames and oral history, it is thought that the bulk of the Qatari population originates from the Arabian Peninsula, Persia, and Oman, with a minority descending from individuals of Africa and Southeast Asia. The people described as Arab are descendants of tribes from the Arabian Peninsula, including coastal tribes of pearl divers and the Hadar as well as Bedouin nomads. The Ajam, or Iranian Qatari, are descendants of merchants and craftsmen who migrated from Persia, and the majority of the Ajam speak Farsi. Another group, the Abd, is descended from African slaves brought from Zanzibar to Qatar via Oman
There is not a great wealth of literature on the genetic structure of the Qatari against which we can compare the present findings. A few studies have established some features of other Middle Eastern population samples, and the studies of the population of Saudi Arabia have advanced well. Previous studies examined the pattern of mtDNA variation in a Saudi sample, with a focus on testing whether the Arabian Peninsula is peopled by remnants of the expansion out of Africa some 150,000 years ago.26 The mtDNA lineages, because of their lack of recombination, retain clear information about maternal lineages, but because they do not recombine, they represent only one sampling of the myriad genealogical processes that occurred. The Saudi samples possessed both African lineages (20%) and eastern lineages (e.g., matching India and Central Asia) (18%), but the bulk was from a more northern origin (62%). This result suggests that, like the Qatari population, the Saudi population harbors a diverse array of genetic contributions following centuries of active trade and is not simply a relic of the ancient out-of-Africa migration. Patterns of Y chromosome variation are largely consistent with the mtDNA The primary finding of the present report is that genetic variation among the current Qatari population is remarkably structured, and that this deep structure has been driven by historical migration and settlement in the area. We find that the Qatari can be largely divided into three primary affinity groups: one that is of Arab origin and may be descendants of the Bedouin tribes, another that has strong affinity with Iranian (“Persian”) and other more eastern populations, including those of Central Asia (such as the Uyghur), and a third that has strong affinity with Bantu-speaking Africans. The latter two groups show strong patterns of admixture, with individuals showing a continuous spread of genetic affinity from the Middle Eastern toward the Asian and African populations, respectively. The three groups demonstrate a strong correlation with family name that supports the local narrative on population history.
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Quote: Any haplogroup can be predecessor back-tracked to Africa Therefore you will use that to suggest there is no such thing as back migrations. Any haplogroup named you will say is African,..... that's your game
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
Prehistoric Arabia and the whole Middle East could be called and an extension of Africa but not the historical period when written record begins. By that time the region is semi African and has transformed and also taken in various ethnicities from surrounding regions
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Perhistoric Arabia and the whole Middle East could be called and an extension of Africa but not the historical period when written record begins. By that time the region is semi African and has transformed and also taken in various ethnicities from surrounding regions
We know that. But what we are doing is questioning how 'Eurasian' is U5 or U6 since they could have arose in African descent people. Like Djehuti(correct me if I misunderstood you Djehuti) pointed out, there were back and forth migrations between Africa and Levant.
I also posted an article by Jeff Rose and in that article southern Arabia was possibly inhabited by African descent people before the supposed OOA migration happened.
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Read and Read. They are ALL African. Not only U6 and U5. Tunisian has the highest frequnecy of unclassified H*, oldest H1 and H3. Guinea and Mali has highest frequency of HV. There is no genetic trail of backmigration. It is all hypothetical wishful thinking by wannabes.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: While the cats away.....
Ignorance is bliss.
U3 is African U6 is African U5 is African H1 is african HV is African.
All have highest frequency, age and diversity IN Africa.
I know about U6 and read about U5 but where is your evidence for U3, H1, and HV?
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: PROVE ME WRONG!!
Quote: Any haplogroup can be predecessor back-tracked to Africa Therefore you will use that to suggest there is no such thing as back migrations. Any haplogroup named you will say is African,..... that's your game
Logic because you can trace the predecessor to Africa that does not mean there has not been a mutation that is unique to conditions outside of Africa. Example Haplogroup J (mtDNA)
Average frequency of J Haplogroup as a whole is highest in the Near East (12%) followed by Europe (11%), Caucasus (8%) and North Africa (6%).
Now as soon as you see Africa listed you say it's African in origin with no proof.
I realize this is impossible for you to believe but when Islam spread to North Africa there were actually some Arabs that migrated into it. Call me crazy
I put up the piece in Qatar you simply ignore the fact that it is comprised of three major components
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posted
My guess is ...everything started in the Sahara and migrated out...away from the Sahara.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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Here's some of the most interesting passages related to the Saharan-Sahel-Nile civilization and its linkage with the formative years of Ancient Egypt.
Conclusion:
- The most likely scenario could be this: some of these Saharo-Nubian populations spread southwards to Wadi Howar, Ennedi and Darfur; some stayed in the actual oases where they joined the inhabitants; and others moved towards the Nile, directed by two geographic obstacles, the western Great Sand Sea and the southern Rock Belt.
- The Western Egyptian Sahara, and the Nile Valley, was, from 6000 BC to 3500 BC, a true zone of linguistic compression , as defined by Jungraithmayr and Leger (1993).
- Conceptual vocabulary shared by contemporary Chadic-speakers, Nilotic-speakers and Ancient Egyptian speakers suggests that the Western Egyptian Sahara was the northern region of this wider contact area that became a zone of linguistic and cultural compression following its desertification .
- If we consider all languages as the archive of their civilisation, the Egyptian vocabulary reflects a lengthy ancient pooling of cultural features from Chadic-speakers and Nilo-Saharan-speakers, shepherds of the Western Sahara.
An interesting example of lexical items between Chadic, Nilo-Saharan and Niger-Congo speakers (see others in the text) for the word Medu Neter (meaning hieroglyph in Ancient Egyptian language).
- ‘Lord of the mdw nTr’ means ‘Lord of Spoken Words’, rather than ‘Lord of Written Words’ or ‘Lord of Script’, , nb sS. ‘The mdw ntr were primarily not signs but words’ (Boylan 1922, 94). The Egyptian word, mdw (Demotic: md(.t)) has a broad and contemporary peripheral range of cognates: Chadic: Kwami: màad-, ‘to say’; Cushitic: Afar: mad’a, ‘speech’; Nilo-Saharan: Teda: meta, ‘to speak’, medi, ‘speech’; and Niger-Congo: Fulfulde: medd-, met-, ‘to speak’ (Anselin 2006b, 147)
- Headrests are known in many African cultures : Cushitic (for example, Beja, Oromo, Somalia), Nilotic (for example, Nyangatom, Turkan), Bantu (for example, Luba, Cokwe, Kuba), Zande and Dogon (Lam 2003). In the Nyangatom culture, the headrest has a religious significance: it is the material double of his owner, just as the favourite ox is the living double. This may shed light on the place and the meaning of the artefact in African cultures. In Ancient Egyptian culture, the headrest became a hieroglyph (Figure 11).
- In addition to Headrests , the dissymmetric horns of oxen and the w3s-sceptre , the Ancient Egyptians shared many features with the cultures of the Nilotic and Cushitic pastoralists, probably as a result of their Saharo-Nubian roots
Saharo-Nubian Cultural Antecedents of the Egyptian Predynastic Culture:
a - In the Gilf Kebir, the rock art can be said to foreshadow the Egyptian myth of the aquatic world of the Afterlife
b- The ceremonial centre and stelae of Nabta Playa document a conception of the Afterlife linked to the key stars of the Egyptian culture: Orion (%3H), Sirius (%pdt), and the Circumpolar stars (ixm-sk; Wb 1, 125.14)
c - We can follow the ‘Giraffe road’ – not the animals, but their pictures engraved and painted on the rocks of the Western Desert and incised or painted on the Naqadan jars of the Nile Valley cultures.
- Recent archaeological data provided since the 1980s outlines a new map of the formation of Ancient Egypt. Tasian (c. 4500 BC) and Badarian Nile Valley sites were not the centres of a Predynastic culture, but peripheral provinces of a network of earlier African cultures around which Badarian, Saharan, Nubian and Nilotic peoples regularly circulated (aka the Saharan-sahel-Nile civilization).
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: While the cats away.....
Ignorance is bliss.
U3 is African U6 is African U5 is African H1 is african HV is African.
All have highest frequency, age and diversity IN Africa.
I know about U6 and read about U5 but where is your evidence for U3, H1, and HV?
this is your proof of origin circling the African country?
also you said earlier you thought frequency = origin. And here the African country has the lower ferquency
Look at American demographics. There are about 42 million black people in America. If we look at a list of all the ethnic groups are the indigenous people the African Americans because you can circle it? That's the type of 'logic' you are using, point of origin = circling prefered chosie on a chart
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posted
The origins of a clade are based on both frequency AND diversity. U in general has it's greatest diversity in Arabia with downstream markers found all around in adjacent areas i.e. Central and Southern Asia and in North Africa and Europe.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: My guess is ...everything started in the Sahara and migrated out...away from the Sahara.
That seems to be the case for all non-African humans in general.
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quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: ^^^ I very much like the concept that the Nile became a zone of linguistic and cultural compression following its desertification .
Which is what those archaeological maps seem to indicate:
The above accounts for Holocene times which accounts for the founding populations of dynastic Egypt, but the lyinass is complaining about PRE-Holocene times much farther back. The same is true with your linguistic arguments and headrests all these post date the genetic events lyinass speaks of.
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Perhistoric Arabia and the whole Middle East could be called and an extension of Africa but not the historical period when written record begins. By that time the region is semi African and has transformed and also taken in various ethnicities from surrounding regions
We know that. But what we are doing is questioning how 'Eurasian' is U5 or U6 since they could have arose in African descent people. Like Djehuti(correct me if I misunderstood you Djehuti) pointed out, there were back and forth migrations between Africa and Levant.
I also posted an article by Jeff Rose and in that article southern Arabia was possibly inhabited by African descent people before the supposed OOA migration happened.
You are correct. My point which is the same as Keita is that there was CONTINUITY between Africa and Southwest Asia especially pre-Holocene times. Therefore any labels of 'Eurasian' are null and void. Also, these people are likely to resemble Nazlet Khater in phenotype or appearance. The lyinass obviously can't get this in her flawed brains.
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posted
Mind you, this so-called 'Eurasian' influence is not limited to North Africa.
quote:Originally posted by the lyinass,: SOMALIA
The lyinass posted the above without citing the source or providing an explanation for the above findings, yet according to the chart Sub-Saharan Somalis also have significant 'Eurasian' influence. What that influence is again without any context, I'm guessing it is in maternal lineages since hg R0 ('Arabian'?) is also present in significant frequencies in Somalia since the. Though it could talk about paternal lineages since the 'Eastern Indian' could be in reference to hg T and and Australian to hg K though if that's the case, 'East African' hg E should be around 80%.
And again this 'Eurasian' influence is found as far south as Kenya with mtDNA hg U6 found there. I've said it before, NON of Africa is safe from the Euronuts' white-washing. Posts: 26349 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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