posted
This was post on some other thread by I think it deserves its own thread.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Well of course, if you don't know by now, most of the clowns are only trying to maintain and support the outright lies and falsehoods of the Western system of anthropology. That is why they stubbornly cling to it to their last breaths.
This isn't about truth in the least. It is about maintaining the legitimacy and primacy of the institutions of history and anthropology as arms of white supremacy. Otherwise, the fact that "amateurs" on this board and elsewhere can put the credibility of these institutions to question threatens the system they have so carefully built over the last few hundred years.
Anybody can see that it is way beyond truth and facts at this point.
I think there's plenty of white scholars which tries to be unbiased in their studies and subjective analysis. Many do a great job, but there's definitely a need for an African perspectives in History, Archeology and historical-genetics. Intimate knowledge about African culture, languages and history provides a different perspectives on those scientific fields. One of the problem is that science is often built on the knowledge gathered by previous scientists. Building on biased 18th century academic works is not the best way to start even for an unbiased scholars.
For example, Jean-Claude Mboli wrote "Origine des langues africaines: essai d'application de la méthode" after noticing many similarities between his own languages and Ancient Egyptian. He then extended this observation to other African languages.
Some scholars are also obviously Euro-arabo-muslim/centric and very biased. You can even see it in genetics research. Also many African scholars have their own biases. The main one historically is those of African christian priests injecting their "newly acquired" religious/cultural bias in their study and books. There's also some African scholars in their attempt to turn the table on Euro-centrist and other xyzcentrists become themselves Afro-centrist and inject their own bias into their study and analysis. Increasing the African centrality in the development of other past cultures.
That's why I prefer concentrating on raw data instead of the subjective interpretation of study results. But even that can be biased. At the moment, I'm mainly concerned about the small samples size of genetic studies on the continent as well as the relative small number of ethnic groups considered which fails to account for Africa's rich genetic and ethnic diversity of interrelated cultures.
In the A00 haplogroup study, An African American Paternal Lineage Adds an Extremely Ancient Root to the Human Y Chromosome Phylogenetic Tree (Mendez 2013) , they say:
quote: It is likely that a much richer understanding of the Y chromosome phylogeny, as well as of genetic variation in general, would be achieved if more dense and even sampling were to be conducted across sub-Saharan Africa, especially given its high level of genetic diversity.
So yes there's definitely a need for an African perspective in history, archeology, linguistic, genetic/history, etc. The contrary would be absurd as having always other people studying and writing about our own history, languages, historic-genetic profiles, etc. Other perspectives are most welcome when you got your own perceptive too on the table. So the ball is in our camp as African people to step up the studies, book and analysis in those fields. This can be done on the individual level or on the national level by increasing pressure to our governments. Who's supposed to do a large scale and evenly spread genetic studies on Africans if it's not African people themselves?
For example, the Timbuktu project led by South Africa probably saved the Timbuktu manuscripts from total destruction by radical Muslims. Individual people affiliated to the South African financed project moved most of the manuscripts just in time before they could destroyed. A very fortunate unintended consequence.
I think economic development goes in pair with cultural development and scientific research in social science and other fields such as natural science. Ultimately a good economy is simply many people doing plenty of works in many different fields of personal interests and capacity with a balanced monetary system. Arts, science, agriculture, manufacturing, pharmaceutics are all directly or indirectly interrelated and ultimately works in synergy.
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quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: I think there's plenty of white scholars which tries to be unbiased in their studies and subjective analysis. Many do a great job, but there's definitely a need for an African perspectives in History, Archeology and historical-genetics.
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: I think there's plenty of white scholars which tries to be unbiased in their studies and subjective analysis. Many do a great job, but there's definitely a need for an African perspectives in History, Archeology and historical-genetics.
perspective = bias
Well I didn't deny that. Even Africans can have their own bias as said above. As I said, foreign perspectives is most welcome as long as it goes alongside African perspective too. Intimate and personal knowledge about ones own languages and cultures add to the knowledge inquired by science.
Here the problem is not that there's a some research done by non-African about Africans but that almost all the studies done about Africans are not done by Africans. As if American history was almost **wholly** written by Chinese or African people. While international scientists can inject an interesting perceptive (or a very bad one) in African scientific studies, it must not be the only sources of academic works and studies.
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I believe the root of the problem is merely inertia. The status quo becomes so engrained that it can't be easily dislodged. The paradigm has been that the Greeks founded civilization for so long that the precedents of that civilization are nearly invisible. Given time we will have more and more proof that Egypt was the the precedent for Greek civilization and that most of the precedents of Egypt were African.
There's nothing new under the sun and this was just as true in the early days of the Greeks as it is today.
-------------------- Men fear the pyramid, time fears man. Posts: 393 | From: NW Indiana, US of A | Registered: Aug 2006
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There are two problems that influence African perspectives relating to genetics. Firstly, to do population genetics you have to support your findings with anthropological, craniometric or linguistic data, This literature is usually Eurocentric. As a result the genetics research is going to reflect the same Eurocentric bias.
Secondly, Afros interested in genetics research lack a background in research methods. Absent a background in Research they don't know how to evaluate and interpret research literature. Granted, they can read the graphics, and raw data, but they don't know how to look at the literature and interpret it from an Africancentered perspective As a result, they parrot the views of the authors they read--never questioning what ever they read.
Most Afros interested in genetics research don't understand that science is hypothesis testing, and that good hypotheses generate new hypotheses. They lack a background in the Afrocentric social sciences so they lack the theoretical background to guide their research. Failure to recognize this reality dooms these potential researchers to contributing nothing to genetics research.
For example, Homburger developed the idea that Black African languages were genetically related. The hypothesis was a good one, and it was confirmed by Diop and later Obenga.
It is simple math if you don't have a knowledge base to work from -- you can't contribute to the literature.
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-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: I think there's plenty of white scholars which tries to be unbiased in their studies and subjective analysis. Many do a great job, but there's definitely a need for an African perspectives in History, Archeology and historical-genetics.
perspective = bias
LOL Totally not true. Perspective simply means a point of view whereas bias is a point of view that is blinding to other views and hinders objectivity. Is it possible for a person to be totally objective? YES But is that usually the case? NO This is why anthropology nowadays requires experts in certain fields of study admit whatever views they have pertaining to their study as honestly as possible. Amun-Ra is correct that Western Academia today has made an about-face turn to rid itself of its old racist paradigm. Have they done so completely? Of course not yet, but that they are putting the effort should say something. As for this 'Afrocentric' nonsense, how else is one to approach African studies? Notice when people study Greece or Rome or some other European culture they are not labeled 'Eurocentrists' and people who study or evaluate Asian culture are not necessarily labeled 'Orientalists' the way they were in the olden days. It is only Africa that 'Afrocentric' is raised as a ridiculous strawman.
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quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Secondly, Afros interested in genetics research lack a background in research methods. Absent a background in Research they don't know how to evaluate and interpret research literature. Granted, they can read the graphics, and raw data, but they don't know how to look at the literature and interpret it from an Africancentered perspective As a result, they parrot the views of the authors they read--never questioning what ever they read.
Most Afros interested in genetics research don't understand that science is hypothesis testing, and that good hypotheses generate new hypotheses. They lack a background in the Afrocentric social sciences so they lack the theoretical background to guide their research. Failure to recognize this reality dooms these potential researchers to contributing nothing to genetics research.
Yes the interpretation of results are problematic sometimes. The collections too imo. I'm sure many Africans have a Biology (genetics) diploma. While many are occupied into doing many different things as it should; It's about finding those interested in doing population structure study and who have obtained the appropriate financial means to do it (for example, grant for university research). Hoping they have at the same time a good academic background in African history and culture. We need more Africans in all fields from biologists to anthropologists to be interested in African history. Especially considering the situation now in which African led research in population structure study is almost nil if not nil period.
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LOL. it is interesting that European researchers made the first Afrocentric hypotheses which were confirmed by African and Afro-American researchers.
As a result, labling Afrocentrism in a derogatory fashion is just Eurropean racism. Afrocentric researchers are falsificationists they have simply confirmed good hypotheses. They were good hypotheses, because they have not been disconfirmwed.
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-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Secondly, Afros interested in genetics research lack a background in research methods. Absent a background in Research they don't know how to evaluate and interpret research literature. Granted, they can read the graphics, and raw data, but they don't know how to look at the literature and interpret it from an Africancentered perspective As a result, they parrot the views of the authors they read--never questioning what ever they read.
Most Afros interested in genetics research don't understand that science is hypothesis testing, and that good hypotheses generate new hypotheses. They lack a background in the Afrocentric social sciences so they lack the theoretical background to guide their research. Failure to recognize this reality dooms these potential researchers to contributing nothing to genetics research.
Yes the interpretation of results are problematic sometimes. The collections too imo. I'm sure many Africans have a Biology (genetics) diploma. While many are occupied into doing many different things as it should; It's about finding those interested in doing population structure study and who have obtained the appropriate financial means to do it (for example, grant for university research). Hoping they have at the same time a good academic background in African history and culture. We need more Africans in all fields from biologists to anthropologists to be interested in African history. Especially considering the situation now in which African led research in population structure study is almost nil if not nil period.
You are correct that we need more biologists and geneticist with a background in African studies. But just getting a degree in biology does not always make a good researcher.
In the science fields graduates get a great background in statistics--but not research methods. As a result, they often employ people like myself with a graduate degree in research methods to help them craft their proposals for research grants.
Since most genetics research is supported by antiquated Eurocentric ideas and concepts they are easily disconfirmed by contemporary research.
While the major Afrocentric research themes and paradidms, remain confirmed. This is because these paradigms are founded on well developed hypotheses that have been confirmed repeatedly over the past 100 years.
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Knowledge is cumulative. In other words we build new knowledge on the research of the giants in our field. From your lack of knowledge about DuBois' it is clear you have no recognition of the fact that what you guys are writing about has already been discussed formerly, and your job should be confirming or disconfirming what these giants wrote.
I teach educational philosophy on occasion. In this class I just don't talk about contemporary educators I also talk about the Greek philosophers.
Charlie I have posted the following previously. I hope you will read it this time and begin to recognize that what Mike, Marc and I write about is part of a 200 year tradition of Afro-American scholarship. Learn to respect your own scholars. Don't let white supremacy continue to blind you to the truths of history.
Afrocentrism, is a mature social science that was founded by Afro-Americans almost 200 years ago.
These men and women provided scholarship based on contemporary archaeological and historical research the African/Black origination of civilization throughout the world. These Afro-American scholars, mostly trained at Harvard University (one of the few Universities that admitted Blacks in the 19th Century) provide the scientific basis the global role played by African people in civilizing the world.
Afrocentrism and the africalogical study of ancient Black civilizations was began by Afro-Americans.
Edward Blyden
The foundation of any mature science is its articulation in an authoritive text (Kuhn, 1996, 136). The africalogical textbooks published by Hopkins (1905), Perry (1893) and Williams (1883) provided the vocabulary themes for further afrocentric social science research.
The pedagogy for ancient africalogical research was well established by the end of the 19th century by African American researchers well versed in the classical languages and knowledge of Greek and Latin. Cornish and Russwurm (1827) in the Freedom Journal, were the first African Americans to discuss and explain the "Ancient Model" of history.
These afrocentric social scientists used the classics to prove that the Blacks founded civilization in Egypt, Ethiopia, Babylon and Ninevah. Cornish and Russwurm (1827) made it clear that archaeological research supported the classical, or "Ancient Model" of history.
Edward Blyden (1869) also used classical sources to discuss the ancient history of African people. In his work he not only discussed the evidence for Blacks in West Asia and Egypt, he also discussed the role of Blacks in ancient America (Blyden, 1869, 78).
By 1883, africalogical researchers began to publish book on African American history. G.W. Williams (1883) wrote the first textbook on African American history. In the History of the Negro Race in America, Dr. Williams provided the schema for all future africalogical history text.
Dr. Williams (1883) confirmed the classical traditions for Blacks founding civilization in both Africa (Egypt, Ethiopia) and West Asia. In addition, to confirming the "Ancient Model" of history, Dr. Williams (1883) also mentioned the presence of Blacks in Indo-China and the Malay Peninsula. Dr. Williams was trained at Howard.
A decade later R.L. Perry (1893) also presented evidence to confirm the classical traditions of Blacks founding Egypt, Greece and the Mesopotamian civilization. He also provided empirical evidence for the role of Blacks in Phoenicia, thus increasing the scope of the ASAH paradigms.
Pauline E. Hopkins (1905) added further articulation of the ASAH paradigms of the application of these paradigms in understanding the role of Blacks in West Asia and Africa. Hopkins (1905) provided further confirmation of the role of Blacks in Southeast Asia, and expanded the scope of africalogical research to China (1905).
This review of the 19th century africalogical social scientific research indicate confirmation of the "Ancient Model" for the early history of Blacks. We also see a movement away from self-published africalogical research, and publication of research, and the publication of research articles on afrocentric themes, to the publication of textbooks.
It was in these books that the paradigms associated with the "Ancient Model" and ASAH were confirmed, and given reliability by empirical research. It was these texts which provided the pedagogic vehicles for the perpetuation of the africalogical normal social science.
The afrocentric textbooks of Hopkins (1905), Perry (1893) and Williams (1883) proved the reliability and validity of the ASAH paradigms. The discussion in these text of contemporary scientific research findings proving the existence of ancient civilizations in Egypt, Nubia-Sudan (Kush), Mesopotamia, Palestine and North Africa lent congruency to the classical literature which pointed to the existence of these civilizations and these African origins ( i.e., the children of Ham= Khem =Kush?).
The authors of the africalogical textbooks reported the latest archaeological and anthropological findings. The archaeological findings reported in these textbooks added precision to their analysis of the classical and Old Testament literature. This along with the discovery of artifacts on the ancient sites depicting Black\African people proved that the classical and Old Testament literature, as opposed to the "Aryan Model", objectively identified the Black\African role in ancient history. And finally, these textbooks confirmed that any examination of references in the classical literature to Blacks in Egypt, Kush, Mesopotamia and Greece\Crete exhibited constancy to the evidence recovered from archaeological excavations in the Middle East and the Aegean. They in turn disconfirmed the "Aryan Model", which proved to be a falsification of the authentic history of Blacks in early times.
The creation of africalogical textbooks provided us with a number of facts revealing the nature of the afrocentric ancient history paradigms. They include a discussion of:
1) the artifacts depicting Blacks found at ancient sites
recovered through archaeological excavation;
2) the confirmation of the validity of the classical and Old
Testament references to Blacks as founders of civilization in Africa and Asia;
3) the presence of isolated pockets of Blacks existing outside Africa; and
4) that the contemporary Arab people in modern Egypt are not the descendants of the ancient Egyptians.
The early africalogical textbooks also outlined the africalogical themes research should endeavor to study. A result, of the data collected by the africalogical ancient history research pioneers led to the development of three facts by the end of the 19th century, which needed to be solved by the afrocentric paradigms: (1) What is the exact relationship of ancient Egypt, to Blacks in other parts of Africa;
(2) How and when did Blacks settle America, Asia and Europe;
(3) What are the contributions of the Blacks to the rise, and cultural expression ancient Black\African civilizations;
(4) Did Africans settle parts of America in ancient times.
As you can see the structure of Afrocentrism were made long before Boas and the beginning of the 20th Century.In fact , I would not be surprised if Boas learned what he talked about from the early Afrocentric researchers discussed in this post.
As you can see Afro-Americans have be writing about the Global history of ancient Black civilizations for almost 200 years. It was Afro-Americans who first mentioned the African civilizations of West Africa and the Black roots of Egypt. These Afro-Americans made Africa a historical part of the world.
Afro-American scholars not only highlighted African history they also discussed the African/Black civilizations developed by African people outside Africa over a hundred years before Bernal and Boas.
Your history of what you call "negrocentric" or Black Studies is all wrong. It was DuBois who founded Black/Negro Studies, especially Afro-American studies given his work on the slave trade and sociological and historical studies of Afro-Americans. He mentions in the World and Africa about the Jews and other Europeans who were attempting to take over the field. Hansberry There is no one who can deny the fact that Leo Hansberry founded African studies in the U.S., not the Jews.Hansberry was a professor at Howard University.
Moreover, Bernal did not initiate any second wave of "negro/Blackcentric" study for ancient Egyptian civilization. Credit for this social science push is none other than Chiek Diop, who makes it clear that he was influenced by DuBois.
DuBois
These scholars recognized that the people of ancient Greece, Southeast Asia and Indo-China were African people. When giants in study of Afrocentrism discussed Blacks in Asia they were talking about people of African descent. So when you claim that these civilizations should be outside the study area of Afrocentric scholars you don't know what you're talking about.
These researchers used anthropological, archaeological historical and linguistic evidence to support their conclusions. It is only natural that these well founded hypotheses developed by these scholars can be supported by population genetics.
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Get up off your knees and learn from the Afro-American scholars who began the study of Blacks in ancient history.
In conclusion, Afrocentrism is a mature social science. A social science firmly rooted in the scholarship of Afro-American researchers lasting almost 200 years. Researchers like Marc Washington, Mike and I are continuing a tradition of scholarship began 20 decades ago. All we are doing is confirming research by DuBois and others, that has not been disconfirmed over the past 200 years.
Aluta continua.....The struggle continues.....
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: . While the major Afrocentric research themes and paradidms, remain confirmed. This is because these paradigms are founded on well developed hypotheses that have been confirmed repeatedly over the past 100 years.
Yes, personally in relation to Ancient Egypt I can't wait to see more DNA results from mummies.
Posts: 2981 | Registered: Jan 2012
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quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: . While the major Afrocentric research themes and paradidms, remain confirmed. This is because these paradigms are founded on well developed hypotheses that have been confirmed repeatedly over the past 100 years.
Yes, personally in relation to Ancient Egypt I can't wait to see more DNA results from mummies.
This is a good example of how good hypotheses are self generating.
Diop hypothesized that the Egyptians were descendant from Sub-Saharan Africans . this view has been confirmed by DNA research relating to the royal mummies that carry haplogroup E.
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Basically its because these fools are too busy looking for themselves in a place that they do not exist.
Posts: 2463 | From: New Jersey USA | Registered: Dec 2007
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quote:Originally posted by beyoku: Basically its because these fools are too busy looking for themselves in a place that they do not exist.
Many of those past historians did that. Even Great Zimbabwe was once said to have been created by some Caucasian related race (Europeans or Semites). A lot of it was colonialism propaganda in a period where religion was still important in the West thus the need to justify evil actions.
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^ Yes, Great Zimbabwe was said to be the work of Caucasian Sabaeans and their Queen of Sheba. But unfortunately the lunacy still continues today with the Eredo Ramparts of Nigeria. Posts: 26316 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by beyoku: Basically its because these fools are too busy looking for themselves in a place that they do not exist.
Many of those past historians did that. Even Great Zimbabwe was once said to have been created by some Caucasian related race (Europeans or Semites). A lot of it was colonialism propaganda in a period where religion was still important in the West thus the need to justify evil actions.
*Sigh*
I remember that...They even destroyed a lot of things that were a apart of the Great Zimbabwe civilization.
Posts: 1135 | From: Top secret | Registered: Jun 2012
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