I am touching base back on this article that said Southern Europeans are more African than thought for a more detailed look. It was quite interesting to me and everyone on here agreed with it, but I wanted to post an opposing view and see what others thought. Anyways...
I haven't been on Topix for a very, very long time due to it being a complete nuthouse now. But a poster named Jeff(who seems to be the more reasonable poster), Jeff for some reasons denies African influence into Europe and claim Europeans have very little to almost non existent African genes. He mostly tries to argue against any African genetic contribution into Europe, and he also seems to try and differentiate North Africa and Sub Sahara Africa from each other. Here are his arguments against the article, which are actually very constructed.
quote:Since you did not get it the first time around: You do realize you just posted a study that state Italians have as little to no African admixture as all other Europeans, right? Let me break it down for you:
A) That news article is misleading and written by a "journalist" who has not read the actual study and who obviously is geographically challenged and can't find Italy on a map. I mean, when has Italy all of the sudden become SOUTHWESTERN Europe? Has there been a huge climatic event where the earth shifted landscapes that we haven't hear about? Maybe the 'journalist' should take a course in geography before she starts to tackle the highly complex subject of human genetics.
B) Here is what the actual scientists state about their findings. Stanford geneticist Carlos Bustamante is one of the scientists who lead the study, his comments that South Central European regions like Italy and Southeast European countries like Greece had little to no North African admixture is clear as can be:
"To me, the differences among Southern European populations were really interesting. Populations in southwestern Europe, such as Spain and Portugal, showed clear evidence of North African gene flow, BUT THERE WAS LITTLE in south-central regions such as Italy, or in the southeastern populations of Greece or Turkey. We attribute this to relatively recent gene flow in historical times (most likely during the period of Moorish inhabitation in Iberia) that differentially impacted European regions." ~ Stanford geneticist Carlos Bustamante
C) That study talks about gene flow from North Africa into Iberia, not Sub Saharan Africans since it distinguishes the difference between North Africans and Sub Saharan Africans as its Abstract states below:
Abstract Using SNP data from 2,099 individuals in 43 populations, we show that estimates of recent shared ancestry between Europe and Africa are substantially increased when gene flow from North Africans, rather than Sub-Saharan Africans, is considered. The gradient of North African ancestry accounts for previous observations of low levels of sharing with Sub-Saharan Africa and is independent of recent gene flow from the Near East. http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2013/05/30/1306223110.abstract
quote:They aren't that different from Northern Europeans, and Southern Europeans have as little to no African admixture as all other Europeans. As study after study has shown they only carry less then 3% African DNA, meanwhile Eurasian and European DNA in North Africa and Northeast Africa are much higher.
quote:Benin Sickle cell gene isn't an indication of anything. Even the study you posted when you created this thread states as much, that Southern Europeans have less then 3% to zero Sub Saharan African admixture. Its North African Berber admixture that is found in Southern Europe and that is mostly located in Iberia.
He's not really a Eurocentric or a racist, actually a nice guy but he seems to have this weird paranoia about African genes in Europeans and also the early Eurasians looking no different from Africans, when he is not even of European descent himself(supposedly). I thought I should post this and see if any member could tackle. One Eurocentric view he has is that he differentiates North Africa and from Sub Sahara Africa like North Africans are not Africans and do not have African genes..
Btw thats not me who he was debating with.
Posts: 1135 | From: Top secret | Registered: Jun 2012
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posted
In relative distance measurements it's logic that North Africa is closer to South Europe. And therefore more likely that North Africans interacted with Southern Europeans, instead of Africans from below the Sahara belt. Which Europeans tend to call the sub-Sahara.
quote: "Firstly, haplogroup E-M2 (former E1b1a) and haplogroup E-M329 (former E1b1c) are now united by the mutations V38 and V100, reducing the number of E1b1 basal branches to two. The new topology of the tree has important implications concerning the origin of haplogroup E1b1. Secondly, within E1b1b1 (E-M35), two haplogroups (E-V68 and E-V257) show similar phylogenetic and geographic structure, pointing to a genetic bridge between southern European and northern African Y chromosomes. Thirdly, most of the E1b1b1* (E-M35*) paragroup chromosomes are now marked by defining mutations, thus increasing the discriminative power of the haplogroup for use in human evolution and forensics."
[...]
Within E-M35, there are striking parallels between two haplogroups, E-V68 and E-V257. Both contain a lineage which has been frequently observed in Africa (E-M78 and E-M81, respectively) [6], [8], [10], [13]–[16] and a group of undifferentiated chromosomes that are mostly found in southern Europe (Table S2). An expansion of E-M35 carriers, possibly from the Middle East as proposed by other Authors [14], and split into two branches separated by the geographic barrier of the Mediterranean Sea, would explain this geographic pattern. However, the absence of E-V68* and E-V257* in the Middle East (Table S2) makes a maritime spread between northern Africa and southern Europe a more plausible hypothesis. A detailed analysis of the Y chromosomal microsatellite variation associated with E-V68 and E-V257 could help in gaining a better understanding of the likely timing and place of origin of these two haplogroups.
--Beniamino Trombetta et al. (2011)
quote: However, the remaining 35% of L mtDNAs form European-specific subclades, revealing that there was gene flow from sub-Saharan Africa toward Europe as early as 11,000 yr ago.
--María Cerezo (2013) Reconstructing ancient mitochondrial DNA links between Africa and Europe
So to say or even claim that North Africans aren't African at all is laughable at best. See, when is spoken of population genetics one needs to know which segments of the population is/ was focused on.
Volume 300, 25 June 2013, Pages 153–170
The Middle Palaeolithic in the Desert
The Middle Stone Age of the Central Sahara: Biogeographical opportunities and technological strategies in later human evolution
And I see that Brenda Henn was in the team as well. Logically since Carlos D. Bustamante is her tutor.
Supplemental data from that study you've posted:
quote: Length of IBD Segments: We calculated a second statistic “LEA”, the average length of the segments shared IBD between a pair of individuals, one from European population and the other from North Africa | Sub-Saharan Africa. Normalization was based on the possible number of pairwise comparisons between both populations. LEA reflects the time since gene flow occurred in contrast to WEA (6). Interestingly, LEA shows an opposite pattern, northern and central European populations having higher values than southern ones (Fig. S17). This suggests that gene flow between southern Europe and North Africa is older than that in other regions in Europe, where longer (recent) segments are found.
While inferred IBD sharing does not indicate directionality, the North African samples that have highest IBD sharing with Iberian populations also tend to have the lowest proportion of the European cluster in ADMIXTURE (Fig. 1), e.g. Saharawi, Tunisian Berbers and South Moroccans. This suggests that gene flow occurred from Africa to Europe rather than the other way around.
Ask Jeff when he is going to rant his nonsense claim to local people on location. Tell hem to go, and record it on video. See the problem with Jeff and many clowns online is, they don't know what the average North African looks like.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor:
While inferred IBD sharing does not indicate directionality, the North African samples that have highest IBD sharing with Iberian populations also tend to have the lowest proportion of the European cluster in ADMIXTURE (Fig. 1), e.g. Saharawi, Tunisian Berbers and South Moroccans. This suggests that gene flow occurred from Africa to Europe rather than the other way around.
^^^ what's the name of the article that supplimental is from?
Posts: 42930 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: ^^^ what's the name and author of the article that supplimental is from?
Detailed info can be found in the Portable Document Format (PDF)
I wrote, that it's supplemental "Identity by descent" data from the same study SOR posted from.
Meaning:
"Gene flow from North Africa contributes to differential human genetic diversity in Southern Europe" --Bustamante et al.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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I am touching base back on this article that said Southern Europeans are more African than thought for a more detailed look. It was quite interesting to me and everyone on here agreed with it, but I wanted to post an opposing view and see what others thought. Anyways...
quote:They aren't that different from Northern Europeans, and Southern Europeans have as little to no African admixture as all other Europeans. As study after study has shown they only carry less then 3% African DNA, meanwhile Eurasian and European DNA in North Africa and Northeast Africa are much higher.
quote:Benin Sickle cell gene isn't an indication of anything. Even the study you posted when you created this thread states as much, that Southern Europeans have less then 3% to zero Sub Saharan African admixture. Its North African Berber admixture that is found in Southern Europe and that is mostly located in Iberia.
He's not really a Eurocentric or a racist, actually a nice guy but he seems to have this weird paranoia about African genes in Europeans and also the early Eurasians looking no different from Africans, when he is not even of European descent himself(supposedly). I thought I should post this and see if any member could tackle. One Eurocentric view he has is that he differentiates North Africa and from Sub Sahara Africa like North Africans are not Africans and do not have African genes..
Btw thats not me who he was debating with.
I'm am not clear on Jeff's claim. When he says Europeans have less than 3% African DNA does he include Berber? Or is he calling Berber descent not African and could be of a higher percentage mixed into Spanish population?
E-M81, age 5600 years, is considered the main berber marker
In Europe>
E-M81 is widespread but rare, except in the Iberian Peninsula Spain, where unlike in the rest of Europe[Note 6] it is found at comparable levels to E-M78, with an average frequency of around 5%, and in some regions it is more common. Its frequencies are higher in the western half of the peninsula with frequencies reaching 8% in Extremadura and South Portugal, 9% in Galicia, 14% in Western Andalusia and 10% in Northwest Castile and 9% to 17% in Cantabria.[19][33][34][35][36] The highest frequencies of this clade found so far in Europe were observed in the Pasiegos from Cantabria, ranging from 18% (8/45)[36] to 41% (23/56).[2] An average frequency of 8.28% (54/652) has also been reported in the Spanish Canary Islands with frequencies over 10% in the three largest islands of Tenerife (10.68%), Gran Canaria (11.54%) and Fuerteventura (13.33%).[37] E-M81 is also found in France,[2] 2.70% (15/555) overall with frequencies surpassing 5% in Auvergne (5/89) and Île-de-France (5/91),[38][39] in Sicily (approximately 2% overall, but up to 5% in Piazza Armerina),[40] and in very much lower frequencies in continental Italy (especially near Lucera)[35] possibly due to ancient migrations during the Islamic, Roman, and Carthaginian empires. As a result of its old world distribution, this subclade is found throughout Latin America, for example 6.1% in Cuba,[41] 5.4% in Brazil (Rio de Janeiro), [Note 7] and among Hispanic men from California and Hawaii 2.4%.[42] In smaller numbers, E-M81 men can be found in areas in contact with [North Africa, both around the Sahara, in places like Sudan, and around the Mediterranean in places like Lebanon, Turkey, and amongst Sephardic Jews. There are two recognized subclades of E-M81, although one is much more important than the other.
Tunisian Berbers are highest in E-M81 about 60% frequency some over 90%
So what you're basically saying is that North Africans and Southern Europeans obviously cluster because of close proximity and historic relations? But that doesn't mean North Africans are any less Africans. Like Horners showing close relations with Middle Easteners DNA wise than other Africans, but that doesn't mean Horners are any less African. Is that what you mean? I hope I am not posting you out of context. One flaw Jeff makes is that he seperates Northwest Africans away from other Africans.
Also what is the average Northwest African look? I believe we discussed that in one of my threads. I believed it was the mulatto type look. But I remember you saying modern day North Africans still show stereotypical features in some of their looks.
Also I really can't tell Jeff anything since I dont even know if he goes on Topix since I havent been on that site in ages, I just saw that argument he was making from a past thread and thought everyone here should see if its really valid how he makes it out to be.
Posts: 1135 | From: Top secret | Registered: Jun 2012
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quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: [QB] @Troll Patrol
So what you're basically saying is that North Africans
you have to define what you mean by North Africans or use a differnt term. In order to be most precise sometimes I prefer Maghrebian and Sahelians rather than North African because those terms have a more set meaning. Most anthropology articles that refer to dry period North Africa are referring to the Maghreb not Egypt, not the Sahel, just the countries that border the North coast excluding Egypt.
There's nothing to say that this is the best way to describe North Africa but remarks made about North Africa should be associated with the region intended by the person who makes them. Importantly a dispute about the name of a region is a separate issue from what somebody says about an area they have defined according to whatever boundries they like.
The smaller the region the more accurate the analysis.
Not saying any of these is best but when peopls say "North Africa" they could mean
a) the Maghreb
b) the Maghreb and Egypt
c) the Maghreb, the Sahel
d) the Maghgreb, the Sahel and Egypt (geographic definition)
d) the Mahgreb, Egypt and Sudan
e) the Maghgreb, the Sahel, Egypt and Sudan
^^^ so as you can see people can say "North Africa", make remarks about it, but you have to inquire further to see what definition they are using.
if you don't use the term "North Africa" when talking about the modern anthropology it causes less confusion to talk about these regions separately:
Maghreb Sahel Nile valley
I don't always remember to but I try. You can still make statements common to all three regions if you want to.
(geographic terms are used differently, North Africa simply means the whole Northern portion of Africa)
Also discussing the modern region is different that discussing the old region because back in the day it was a lot wetter and had more vegetation and rivers. After the Sahara began to dry up most of the population left what had become desert
Posts: 42930 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: @Troll Patrol
So what you're basically saying is that North Africans and Southern Europeans obviously cluster because of close proximity and historic relations? But that doesn't mean North Africans are any less Africans. Like Horners showing close relations with Middle Easteners DNA wise than other Africans, but that doesn't mean Horners are any less African. Is that what you mean? I hope I am not posting you out of context. One flaw Jeff makes is that he seperates Northwest Africans away from other Africans.
Also what is the average Northwest African look? I believe we discussed that in one of my threads. I believed it was the mulatto type look. But I remember you saying modern day North Africans still show stereotypical features in some of their looks.
Also I really can't tell Jeff anything since I dont even know if he goes on Topix since I havent been on that site in ages, I just saw that argument he was making from a past thread and thought everyone here should see if its really valid how he makes it out to be.
First off it's not what I am saying. It's what studies show.
Second, it's only logic that in distance measurements, people within a certain space and or region cluster more. This theory is valid in all parts of the world.
Another example would be, Northeast lower Egyptians, they cluster more with Levantines. However, recent events has shown that modern day Syrians aren't accepted in Egypt. So it's not like the "Brady Bunch".
And the most common separation is between Northeast and Northwest Africa.
In the context of the study you've posted we are speaking of Northwest Africa's, North-South latitude. Considering they mentioned the Saharawi, the West Saharans.
And yes, 9/10 times you would mistake a average North African for a mulatto.
It happens often, when a white person mistakes a "biracial person" for a North African. And there is ethnic differences between North Africans too. It's not like all look "the same".
I know, I am just making sure I am not posting you out of context. And yeah most North Africans do seem to have a mulatto look like I suggested before.
Also Jeff claims Italians have less than 3% Sub Saharan African genes. Yet Autosomal DNA shows us that Southern Italians especially Sicilians have around 5-10% African genes.
What are your thoughts on this? But he was right about the Greeks.
Posts: 1135 | From: Top secret | Registered: Jun 2012
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posted
3-5% average it looks to me for Southern Europe, some places in Southern Europe slightly lower and some places a bit higher 5-10%
Posts: 42930 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: @Troll Patrol
I know, I am just making sure I am not posting you out of context. And yeah most North Africans do seem to have a mulatto look like I suggested before.
Also Jeff claims Italians have less than 3% Sub Saharan African genes. Yet Autosomal DNA shows us that Southern Italians especially Sicilians have around 5-10% African genes.
What are your thoughts on this? But he was right about the Greeks.
Sicily had a Moorish impact. This is well known. And it could be that some are even descendants of Pompeii.
Actually I don't like to debate, how much or less genetic input. Because I don't see the relevance on those numbers and in particular Hg types. Since recently we've been doing some discoveries in SNP's.
Sicilians in particular are relatively dark complected. And some have the appearance as those girls from Morocco, posted previously.
I think the Jeff is the owner of a site called racial-reality. He/ she cited often from the site. I have had conversations with that individual. He/ she is a sneaky subliminal racist. Far from objective.
(a) Geographical map showing the main colonies by Greeks (triangles) and Phoenicians (circles) in the Mediterranean (seventh to sixth centuries bc). (b) Frequency distribution of the most representative haplotype 13-13-30-24-10-11-13 associated to the E3b1a2-V13 chromosomes in Sicily, in other populations taken from literature15, 23, 29, 30 and in samples from YHRD. The allelic combinations refer to the following order of loci: DYS19-DYS389I-DYS389II-DYS390-DYS391-DYS392-DYS393. (c) Frequency distribution of the haplotype 13-14-30-24-9-11-13 associated to the E3b1b-M81 chromosomes in Sicily (data from this study), in other populations taken from literature29 and in samples from YHRD.
Network of haplogroup E. The microsatellites DYS19, DYS389I, DYS390, DYS391 and DYS392 were used. Areas of circles are proportional to the number of chromosomes (the smallest circle corresponds to two chromosomes). Areas of sectors are proportional to haplotype frequencies. Sources: Greece and Albania (AP unpublished data); North Africa;7, 23 southern Italy;7 Middle East.7, 15
Uniparental Markers of Contemporary Italian Population Reveals Details on Its Pre-Roman Heritage
Sorry I forgot to respond to this post. Anyways...
Yeah it is well known that Sicily had a Moorish presence(check this out), but how much did it affect the DNA of native Sicilians?
I don't think Jeff is the owner of racial reality. The owner of racial reality is not only a huge Eurocentric, but racist. Jeff is close to a Eurocentric, but he actually agrees that the Ancient Egyptians were African/black and admitted it multiple times. The thing is that he has a huge paranoia of African influence whether it be DNA, cultural or Historic being in Europe. He has that type of Eurocentric mindset. Now he could get his sources from racial reality, which would explain why he had been affected by Eurocentrism.
But anyways good post especially on Haplogroup E clades in Southern Europeans and this also.
Also do you agree with these DNAtribes results of Sicilians? I don't know if I do. Posts: 1135 | From: Top secret | Registered: Jun 2012
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: the term "Saharan-Arabian" has led to a lot of confusion
I think they mean North Africans. I don't know really...
They also have a column called "Northeast Africans"
there is no consistency in the terms
Like I have said if you use these terms:
Maghrebian Sahelian Arabian Nile Valley
then there is much less confusion
I while ago you posted picture of a man, of which I now have come to find out that he is Algerian. However I can't tell if he is indigenous. But sources describe him as Berber descent. He goes by the name Hamid Cheriet.
I say so, because of all the immigration/ intrusion into Algeria.
posted
Abstract Using SNP data from 2,099 individuals in 43 populations, we show that estimates of recent shared ancestry between Europe and Africa are substantially increased when gene flow from North Africans, rather than Sub-Saharan Africans, is considered. The gradient of North African ancestry accounts for previous observations of low levels of sharing with Sub-Saharan Africa and is independent of recent gene flow from the Near East.
^^Keep in mind that "North Africans" are from Africa, and "North Africa" includes a vast area, not simply the Medit coast. SO if "North Africa"is truly considered then yes the point is that there has been such gene flow from "Africa" into EUrope.
Most studies of "North Africa" fail to account for the full range of African diversity and sample mostly near the Medit coast.
They aren't that different from Northern Europeans, and Southern Europeans have as little to no African admixture as all other Europeans. As study after study has shown they only carry less then 3% African DNA, meanwhile Eurasian and European DNA in North Africa and Northeast Africa are much higher.
Actually it depends on the study referenced. SOME studies of SOME SOuthern European populations show the 3% or so admixture. Others however among other SOuthern European populations show much higher levels depending on the marker and sub-population uised.
1--A. HLA gene markers are limited as comprehensive expositors of gene flow, but they do show some gene flow between Africa and Greece and the Northern Mediterranean. They are not needed however, as numerous other lines of evidence show the same.
These include: -- mtDNA M1a and various L lineages, -- nrY E-M215 and subclades, -- AIM full genome autosomes, -- HLA full haplotype A*30:02 Cw*05:01 B*18:01 DRB1*03:01 DQA1*05:01 DQB1*02:01, --chromosome 7 CFTR 3120+1G->A mutation --chromosome 8p23 YRI haplotypes, --Benin Hb S, (sickle cell) --GM*1,17 23' 5*, --cDe allele of the Rh gene, (blood group analysis) --Fy*O allele of the Duffy blood group locus and --V (Rh10) and Jsa (K6) antigens. [/i]
1B-- Villena's Greek-Macedonian-African study has nothing to do with the Jew-Palestinian controversy. The study was withdrawn for political reasons, and offended sensibilities of various Jewish and other groups. Assorted "biodiversity" types try to use that to advance a bogus claim that the Greek data was "withdrawn." Total BS. It is alive and well and appears specifically in Vilenna's Greek study: HLA genes in Macedonians and the sub-Saharan origin of the Greeks Tissue Antigens 2001: 57: 118-127 Jewish - Palestinian controversies have nothing to do with it.
2-- The Palestinian study also notes that CERTAIN Aegean Greeks are related to Africans via cystic fibrosis mutations.
4-- Anthro/Archaeo data show the early presence of African traits (and remember Africans have a wide variety of traits) in the Neolithic data. The full info has already been posted but here is some anthro/archaeo data affirming the presence of "negroid" traits from early times: quote: "The female of forty-plus years of age from Grave 2 was examined by J. L. Angel who noted what he interpreted as a number of 'negroid' .. traits in the face." The skull is fairly complete, but not enough so for discriminant function analysis." There is marked maxillary prognathism and the orbits may be described as rectangular, traits frequently used in forensic diagnosis of Negro crania... " -- Skeletons of Lerna Hollow. Al B. Wesolowsky. Hesperia, Vol. 42, No. 3. (Jul. - Sep., 1973), pp. 340-351.
"Early Neolithic Macedonia centered on a Dinaric-Mediterranean (type F) average but with an extremely broad nose, more prognathism, and a little more mouth tilt than expected (all, perhaps from negroid development of the incisor region.." -- The people of Lerna: analysis of a prehistoric Aegean population. J.L Angel 1971
"The portrayal on the 'miniature fresco' from Thera, and on the other, very fragmentary Aegean frescoes, of diverse stylistic elements- flora and fauna, 'negroid' human representations, the riverine setting, of the 'miniature fresco,' etc- that seem to be north African, 'Libyan' or Egyptian in origin." --The Aegean and the Orient in the second millennium: proceedings of the 50th anniversary symposium, Cincinnati, 18-20 April 1997
"The inhabitants of the Aegean area in the Bronze Age may have been much like many people in the Mediterranean basin today, short and slight of build with dark hair and eyes and sallow complexions. Skeletons show that the population of the Aegean was already mixed by Neolithic times, and various facial types, some with delicate features and pointed noses, others pug-nosed, almost negroid, are depicted in wall paintings from the 16th century BC..." -- The Home of the Heroes: The Aegean Before the Greeks (1967)
Scholars also link the Negroid elements to sickle-cell anemia QUOTE: "The female from Grave 2 is among those with thickened parietals. It should be pointed out that maxillary prognathism, one of the skeleton's "Negroid" features, is characteristic both of thalassemia and sickle-cell anemia." -- Skeletons of Lerna Hollow. Al B. Wesolowsky. Hesperia, Vol. 42, No. 3. (Jul. - Sep., 1973), pp. 340-351.
5-- Other elements like Benin Sickle Cell traits are also found among the Greeks and various Africans and some skeletal/cranial studies find African elements in Greece (Angel 1972 for example) QUOTE:
"A late Pleistocene-early Holocene northward migration (from Africa to the Levant and to Anatolia) of these populations has been hypothesized from skeletal data (Angel 1972, 1973; Brace 2005) and from archaeological data, as indicated by the probable Nile Valley origin of the "Mesolithic" (epi-Paleolithic) Mushabi culture found in the Levant (Bar Yosef 1987). This migration finds some support in the presence in Mediterranean populations (Sicily, Greece, southern Turkey, etc.; Patrinos et al.; Schiliro et al. 1990) of the Benin sickle cell haplotype. This haplotype originated in West Africa and is probably associated with the spread of malaria to southern Europe through an eastern Mediterranean route (Salares et al. 2004) following the expansion of both human and mosquito populations brought about by the advent of the Neolithic transition (Hume et al 2003; Joy et al. 2003; Rich et al 1998). This northward migration of northeastern African populations carrying sub-Saharan biological elements is concordant with the morphological homogeneity of the Natufian populations (Bocquentin 2003), which present morphological affinity with sub-Saharan populations (Angel 1972; Brace et al. 2005).
In addition, the Neolithic revolution was assumed to arise in the late Pleistocene Natufians and subsequently spread into Anatolia and Europe (Bar-Yosef 2002), and the first Anatolian farmers, Neolithic to Bronze Age Mediterraneans and to some degree other Neolithic-Bronze Age Europeans, show morphological affinities with the Natufians (and indirectly with sub-Saharan populations; Angel 1972; Brace et al 2005), in concordance with a process of demic diffusion accompanying the extension of the Neolithic revolution (Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1994)."
-- F. X. Ricaut, M. Waelkens. (2008). Cranial Discrete Traits in a Byzantine Population and Eastern Mediterranean Population Movements Human Biology - Volume 80, Number 5, October 2008, pp. 535-564
6-- Greeks, Africans and African-influenced Arab populations share a unique common cystic fibrosis mutation
"The observed identity of extended CFTR haplotypes for the 312011GrA alleles in the Arab, African, and African American patients strongly suggests that this mutation has a common origin in these groups. This finding is not surprising in the case of Africans and African Americans, since the latter group has originated mostly from the western African coast and came to North America between the 16th and 19th centuries, which is too recent to allow origination of significant CFTR-mutation haplotype changes restricted to African Americans. It is not quite so simple to explain the presence of the 312011GrA mutation in African and Saudi Arab patients.
However, a continuous gene flow between Arab and African populations probably has persisted for many centuries, in association with trading and with the spread of the Islamic religion. Thus far, the Greeks are the only Caucasian population in which the 312011GrA mutation has been identified. A recurrent mutational event seems to be unlikely, because the Greek haplotype differs from the others in only two minor respects..
Greek and Arab/African haplotypes of the 312011GrA mutation thus may have diverged from a common ancestor and then evolved separately in the respective populations. In summary, our present analysis provides the first evidence for a common origin of CF among African, Arab, Greek, and African American populations. The shared extra- and intragenic 312011GrA-associated haplotype is most easily explained by the assumption of a single origin for this mutation. 312011GrA appears to be an ancient mutation that may be more common than previously thought, in populations of the tropical and subtropical belt, where CF probably is an under-diagnosed disorder." --Dörk, et al. (August 1998). "Evidence for a common ethnic origin of cystic fibrosis mutation
7-- Other cultural/archaeo data testify to the African presence, Africans again having a wide range of features
QUOTES "THE FORERUNNERS During the Early Minoan period the population of southern Crete may have included a Negroid element. The presence of such an element from Libya in the Cretan population has been argued on the basis of an inlay of shell now in the Ashmolean Museum. This inlay may have come from an early circular tomb at Ayios Onouphrios. It depicts a bearded face, with thick lips and snub nose. Other objects might lead to the same observation for later periods. Among the faiences showing house fronts (Middle Minoan II)15 there is one in which are seen the prow of a ship and swarthy, prognathous, clearly Negroid people, some steatopygic...
It is uncertain, however, what role to assign to the non-Minoan figures in this scene, which it has been suggested, may represent the represent the siege of a seacoast town. Scholars are in greater agreement with respect to their interpretations of the coal black spearmen who appear in a fragment of a fresco, which Evans called The Captain of the Blacks, belonging to Late Minoan 145 II.18 The fresco depicts a Minoan captain, wearing a yellow kilt and a horned cap of skin, who leads, at the double, a file of black men similarly dressed." -- The image of the Black in Western art: Volume 4, Part 1 Jean Vercoutter, Ladislas Bugner, Jean Devisse. 1976
"The Theran is a young man whose black wavy hair, rather thick lips, and nose with reduced platyrrniny are clearly shown. Although he acknowledges that these traits suggest a NEgrito or Nubian, Marinatos avoids precise anthropological definition and concludes that the characteristics seem to indicate an "African".
"An interpretation of Negroes in Crete and Pylos as soldiers would have some support in the example of Egypt, with its long tradition of Nubian mercenaries. A striking example, belonging somewhat earlier period that that of the Minoan Captain of the Blacks fresco, is provided by the wooden models of forty black archers in Cairo, found in a tomb of a prince of Assiut." pg 138
L. Bertholon and E. Chantre have analyzed results of black-white crossings in their detailed anthropological study of ancient and modern Tripolitiana, Tunisia, and Algeria. They call attention to the degrees of Negro admixture as evidenced by the extent to which Negroid features appear in mixed North African peoples. R. Bartoccini in his study of the somatic characteristics of ancient Libyans, illustrates his observations on racial crossings between Libyans and Negroes from the interior by pointing to the Negroid nose (broad) and hair (curly or wooly) .."
"Some of the physical features of this type are: dark or black color expressed in a variety of ways, tightly curled platyrrhine nose, and thick, often everted lips. '
"In a scene on a red-figured calyx-krater of the period from Canicattoni, now in Syracuse, a female dancer, fully draped, stands on tiptoe. The treatment of the nose, the lips and the tightly curled hair indicates that Negroid features were intended.. the realism and anthropological fidelity of those cited above leave no doubt as to the artists' intent.." pg 171 -- The image of the Black in Western art: Volume 4, Part 1 Jean Vercoutter, Ladislas Bugner, Jean Devisse. 1976
"Memnon was a favorite subject of Greek vase painting in the 500s and 400s B.C. Like other mythological figures from Ethiopia, he was sometimes shown with distinctly negroid facial features." --David Sacks, Oswyn Murray, Margaret Bunson, 1995. A Dictionary of the Ancient Greek Worl -------------------------------
ADDITIONAL DATA: AFRICAN HAPLOGROUP E FOUND IN GREEKS
QUOTE: "Underhill et al. (2001) showed that the frequency of the YAP+ Y haplogroup commonly referred to as haplogroup E or (III) is relatively high (about 25%) in the Middle East and Mediterranean. This haplogroup E is the major haplogroup found in sub-Saharan Africa (over 75% of all Y chromosomes). Specifically, Europeans contain the E3b sub-haplogroup, which was derived from haplogroup E in sub-Saharan Africa and currently is distributed along the North and East of Africa.. It appears that the 171 AIM test subject of this chapter may recognize the haplogroup E character as West African."
--T. Frudakis. 2008. Molecular photofitting: predicting ancestry and phenotype using DNA
Origin of E1b1 (E3b) in Africa
"Using the principle of the phylogeographic parsimony, the resolution of the E1b1b trifurcation in favor of a common ancestor of E-M2 and E-M329 strongly supports the hypothesis that haplogroup E1b1 originated in eastern Africa, as previously suggested [10], and that chromosomes E-M2, so frequently observed in sub-Saharan Africa, trace their descent to a common ancestor present in eastern Africa. -- Trombetta et al. 2011. A New Topology of the Human Y Chromosome Haplogroup E1b1. PLoS ONE 6(1)
As noted above, SOME studies do show a fair bit of African influence in ancient Southern Europe, on multiple lines of evidence, depending on the population studied and line of evidence. African influences of course would not be as major as European influences, but they are still there.
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor: I while ago you posted picture of a man, of which I now have come to find out that he is Algerian. However I can't tell if he is indigenous. But sources describe him as Berber descent. He goes by the name Hamid Cheriet.
I say so, because of all the immigration/ intrusion into Algeria.
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor: I while ago you posted picture of a man, of which I now have come to find out that he is Algerian. However I can't tell if he is indigenous. But sources describe him as Berber descent. He goes by the name Hamid Cheriet.
I say so, because of all the immigration/ intrusion into Algeria.
Is the majority of Algeria primarily African or non-African? [/QB]
I don't know. I don't know that much about Algeria or Algerians. I do know that a Moroccan can recognize an Algerian (as a separate ethnicity). And I am speaking of people like Hamid Cheriet.
But as I said back then, I don't believe this man is indigenous to the region. I think he descents from immigrants.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor:
But as I said back then, I don't believe this man is indigenous to the region.
why not, there are berbers in Algeria?
Yes, but that doesn't mean everybody is indigenous to the region. Nor does it mean that he is a Berber in origin.
There is something as integration as assimilation.
There is also a history of colonization in the region. And it's well recorded.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
^^^Well for one his physical features aren't, because its not a part of the native African diversity. Correct me if I am wrong.
Posts: 1135 | From: Top secret | Registered: Jun 2012
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quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: ^^^Well for one his physical features aren't, because its not a part of the native African diversity. Correct me if I am wrong.
We have studies on Paleolithic to Mesolithic crania, and it shows to cluster with other African types. I have shown these papers over and over. And I am not going to post them again.
posted
so in looking at the two men how would you describe the Non-African traits of Hamid Cheriet?
Posts: 42930 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: so in looking at the two men how would you describe the Non-Africa traits of Hamid Cheriet?
It's in reference to Jari's comment: "Africoid traits".
And in reference to studies on crania, as have explained in my pervious post. Act as if it is not there. lol
Act as if there was ever a invasion or colonization into to region.
The pictures of the two men show you the distinctive physical features.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: so in looking at the two men how would you describe the Non-Africa traits of Hamid Cheriet?
It's in reference to Jari's comment: "Africoid traits".
And in reference to studies on crania, as have explained in my pervious post. Act as if it is not there. lol
Act as if there was ever a invasion or colonization into to region.
we don't have crania measurements Hamid Cheriet, There was a photo posted of him and you said he doesn't look indigenous to Africa. Simple question what are the particular Afracoid traits what are the non-Africoid traits?
Posts: 42930 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: ^^^Well for one his physical features aren't, because its not a part of the native African diversity. Correct me if I am wrong.
We have studies on Paleolithic to Mesolithic crania, and it shows to cluster with other African types. I have shown these papers over and over. And I am not going to post them again.
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: so in looking at the two men how would you describe the Non-Africa traits of Hamid Cheriet?
It's in reference to Jari's comment: "Africoid traits".
And in reference to studies on crania, as have explained in my pervious post. Act as if it is not there. lol
Act as if there was ever a invasion or colonization into to region.
we don't have crania measurements Hamid Cheriet, There was a photo posted of him and you said he doesn't look indigenous to Africa. Simple question what are the particular Afracoid traits what are the non-Africoid traits?
That's true, we don't have that. But we do have facial physical features. And these aren't as the other man, who does have Africoid traits.
What we know about crania from the region is that from the Paleolithic onto to Mesolithic it clusters with other African populations located at the South, moving up North. Thus we can conclude...lol
Africoid traits are those traits that stem from the stereotype traits on which you fetch all the time.
The anthropological sources approach the traits of the Paleolithic to Mesolithic North African, as mixed.
Does Hamid Cheriet strike to you as a "mixed person" in facial traits?
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: ^^^Well for one his physical features aren't, because its not a part of the native African diversity. Correct me if I am wrong.
We have studies on Paleolithic to Mesolithic crania, and it shows to cluster with other African types. I have shown these papers over and over. And I am not going to post them again.
Also I already know Paleolithic Europeans were similar to Africans. I posted studies like that loads of times.
Again I meant his skin tone and hair.
Most of all it's in the crania and post-crania. The traits you named are cosmetic.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor:
Hamid Cheriet
I don't believe this man is indigenous to the region.
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra:
Well for one his physical features aren't, because its not a part of the native African diversity.
I meant his skin color and hair...
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor:
Most of all it's in the crania and post-crania. The traits you named are cosmetic.
If not skin or hair what traits of Hamid Cheriet don't look African to you, his thin lips? The shape of his nose? Head shape? Tell us which of his crania and post-crania traits you are referring to.
Posts: 42930 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor:
Hamid Cheriet
I don't believe this man is indigenous to the region.
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra:
Well for one his physical features aren't, because its not a part of the native African diversity.
I meant his skin color and hair...
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor:
Most of all it's in the crania and post-crania. The traits you named are cosmetic.
If not skin or hair what traits of Hamid Cheriet don't look African to you, his thin lips? The shape of his nose? Head shape? Tell us which of his crania and post-crania traits you are referring to.
It his overall shape in looks. As I said before, anthropological studies explain the Paleolithic to Mesolithic population of a mixed type of Africans people. By that the mean "a biracial type". As I have mentioned before, already. Crania metric they clustered with other African groups from the South who moved up North.
Hamid Cheriet doesn't look like a mixed type of African. As is described by anthropologists.
Taken in to account that the region of Algeria had a lot of invasions and migrations, it's becomes doubtable and a obscurity that he is actually truly indigenous to the region. This does not mean that he can't have ancestry from the region.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor: [QB] I was able to retrieve an image posted here before on ES.
all that work you did retrieving it, yet knowing I posted it 4 days ago in the Kabyle thread
Posts: 42930 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor: [QB] I was able to retrieve an image posted here before on ES.
all that work you did retrieving it, yet knowing I posted it 4 days ago in the Kabyle thread
I said, I retrieved the original source of this image.
Reread the post, and click those links, thanks for your time.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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