posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by typeZeiss:
The part about the Libyans being white etc is bullocks. 1.

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posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:

quote:

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Originally posted by typeZeiss:
The part about the Libyans being white etc is bullocks. 1.

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I have no problem with it because the text says the occupants of the coast. The Greeks had limited knowledge about inner Africa beyond the coast.

Also what is interesting here is the perception of the Kemetians. The Libu it seems were rarely (if ever) mentioned until the Ramesside period (19th-20th dynasty).

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quote:

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Ancient Egypt: The Libyan Period

The period is called 'Libyan' because many of the kings at this time had Libyan names. At the end of the New Kingdom, Egypt was divided between the northern kings ruling from their new capital of Tanis, and the high priests of Amun at Thebes. As the period progressed, the country became more and more fragmented. By the time the Kushite Piye invaded, there were four individuals calling themselves king, as well as princes, chiefs and other local dynasts.

The limited resources available to these rulers, caused by the fragmentation of the country, led to the reuse of building materials and statues. Original art of this period moved away from the opulence of the Ramesside period, and was more austere and traditional. Innovations in metalworking led to this medium becoming popular for statuary.

Tombs of the Libyan period were sometimes located within temple enclosures, perhaps as part of a change in religious belief. This, and the caching (gathering together for safety) of groups of coffins, may also reflect insecurity, perhaps due to the systematic plundering of the Theban necropolis. Inscriptions by private people within temples suggests a new relationship between ordinary people and the gods.

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http://www.britishmuseum.org/explore/highlights/article_index/a/ancient_egypt_the_libyan_peri.aspx


Osorkon II ruled Egypt from 874 until 850 BCE







Shoshenq II 877-875

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quote:

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Originally posted by typeZeiss:
The part about the Libyans being white etc is bullocks. 1. Libya was the name applied to all of Africa by the Greeks and 2. they clearly describe the population of Libya as Ethiopian with the exception of a few groups who they said are the results of Roman and Greeks. You can read Herodotus' the Histories for more info

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quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
A row of tributaries bow to Amenhotep III from left to right--a Libyan, a Canaanite, a Syrian and a Nubian.



^ Note the complexion of the Libyan.

I don't discount the possibility of white Libyans, but I do have my suspicions since I see many Libyans with the exact same features and clothing as the white ones but with black skins. It makes me wonder whether folks are trying to revive the old 19th century theory of Petrie and Breasted's "white savages of North Africa".

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quote:

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Originally posted by Son of Ra:
Conquered Libu (Libyan) from Ramessid era in Egypt:

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posted                      

Relief block with the heads of three Libyans




http://www.metmuseum.org/collections/search-the-collections/100007165

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Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
Lybians of the Egyptian/Lybian Oasis..

Dakhla:

The master of the house ..





Above the front door, travel by boat.
Pilgrimage to Abydos



26th Lybian Dynasty Tomb..

The founder of the dynasty was Psammetichus I, originally a member of the Libyan royal house in Saïs (which is why the period is also called the Saite Period). Psammetichus originally ruled in Egypt with the help of Assyria and ruled over Lower Egypt with other local princes (Herodotus speaks of twelve kings). With the help of Greek and Carian mercenaries he eventually succeeded in ruling alone.

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

Libyans are depicted in Egyptian art as lighter skinned than Egyptians

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Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

This decorative tile from a royal palace made between 1184 and 1153 BC and found in Tell el-Yahudiyah
shows a Libyan captive.
British Museum


Vs Modern Libyan

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The concentration of populations in expanding settlements where surface water is available, and the organisation of these populations into specialised urban and/or stratified state-level societies, is not the only response to increasing aridity evident in the archaeological record. In other words the nature of the response is not determined by the nature of the climatic stress to which people must adapt. Differential adaptation is apparent in response to climatic desiccation in the Fezzan region of southern Libya, where Di Lernia and Palombini (2002) describe two contrasting responses to aridity in the middle Holocene. In higher elevation regions cattle herding, previously the dominant economic activity, almost completely disappeared after 5000 years BP. The keeping of cattle was replaced by highly mobile pastoralism based on sheep and goats and involving large-scale year round movement in order to exploit remnant water and pasture, a nomadic lifestyle that persists to this day. In contrast, lower elevation regions were characterised by increasing settlement in relict oases, associated with sedentism and more intensive exploitation of local resources. Settlement in the relict oases ultimately led to the emergence of the Garamantian civilisation in the early third millennium BP, based on the exploitation of underground water resources via the construction of subterranean irrigation channels or foggara (Wilson and Mattingly, 2003). The Garamantes dominated the Fezzan between about 3000 years BP and 700 years AD, and their society appears to have arisen as the result of local innovation, the outcome of a process of increasing social complexity among the pastoral groups of the Fezzan (Di Lernia et al., 2002; Mattingly, 2003).

As seems to have occurred in Egypt and Mesopotamia, the emergence of the Garamantian polity was associated with inward migration, increased population density, changes in religious beliefs and practices, social stratification and a more territorial approach to the landscape, catalysed by the final desiccation of most of the landscape soon after 3000 years BP (Brooks et al., 2003; Cremaschi and Di Lernia, 2001; Di Lernia et al, 2002; Mattingly et al., 2003).


The evidence strongly suggests that climatic desiccation centred around 5000 years BP played a major role in the emergence of early complex societies or “civilisations”, characterised by a high degree of some or all of the following: urbanisation, specialisation, social stratification, and state-level organisation. This event appears to have been connected with a combination of millennial-scale North Atlantic variability, orbitally-induced southwards monsoonal retreat, and a collapse of vegetation-atmosphere feedbacks. Nonetheless, the nature of early civilisations varied considerably, and there was no single trajectory followed by societies as they adapted to increasing aridity.

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Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

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quote:

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Early Neolithic to Predynastic/A-Group

"Remains in the immediate eastern foreland of Kurkur, just east of the Sinn el-Kiddab escarpment, are sparse. Numerous and widely distributed hearth mounds18 occur in the area. Pottery, though sparse, further demonstrates the association of early Nile Valley and Western Desert cultures. "


[...]


Area of the Darb Gallaba and Gebel Garra



Farther to the east of the Sinn el-Kiddab escarpment, Protodynastic, Early Dynastic, Old Kingdom, Middle Kingdom, New Kingdom, Roman, and recent sites occur in association with caravan routes, whereas evidence for earlier human activity (Early Neolithic to Predynastic/A-Group) includes both halting places along the ancient desert routes as well as occupation sites. Pre-pottery Early Neolithic sites (equivalent to Hester and Hobler’s “Libyan Culture”21) were numerous, and characterized by various types of dry stone features.

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quote:

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Ancient Egypt: The Libyan Period

The period is called 'Libyan' because many of the kings at this time had Libyan names. At the end of the New Kingdom, Egypt was divided between the northern kings ruling from their new capital of Tanis, and the high priests of Amun at Thebes. As the period progressed, the country became more and more fragmented. By the time the Kushite Piye invaded, there were four individuals calling themselves king, as well as princes, chiefs and other local dynasts.

The limited resources available to these rulers, caused by the fragmentation of the country, led to the reuse of building materials and statues. Original art of this period moved away from the opulence of the Ramesside period, and was more austere and traditional. Innovations in metalworking led to this medium becoming popular for statuary.

Tombs of the Libyan period were sometimes located within temple enclosures, perhaps as part of a change in religious belief. This, and the caching (gathering together for safety) of groups of coffins, may also reflect insecurity, perhaps due to the systematic plundering of the Theban necropolis. Inscriptions by private people within temples suggests a new relationship between ordinary people and the gods.

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http://www.britishmuseum.org/explore/highlights/article_index/a/ancient_egypt_the_libyan_peri.aspx

quote:

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>French archaeologists have made a major discovery at the San Al-Hagar archaeological site, 70 kilometres north of the town of Zagazig. San Al-Hagar, site of the ancient city known to the ancient Egyptians as Djanet and the Greeks as Tanis, contains the ruins of a number of temples that can be seen in what during the Third Intermediate Period was an important royal necropolis, and is now an outdoor museum.

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posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
Modern Libyan

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quote:

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Originally posted by al~Takruri


Denkmaeler plate 136ab as in KV17 tomb of Seti I chamber F
Book of Gates the Gate of Teka Hra vignette 30 full repro

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quote:

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Originally posted by Wally:


Jean-Francois Champollion:

"Right in the valley of Biban-el-Moluk, we admired, like all previous visitors,
the astonishing freshness of the paintings and the fine sculptures on several tombs.
I had a copy made of the peoples represented on the bas-reliefs. At first I had thought,
from copies of these bas-reliefs published in England, that these peoples of different races
led by the god Horus holding his shepherd's staff, were indeed nations subject to the rule
of the Pharaohs. A study of the legends informed me that this tableau has a more general
meaning. It portrays the third hour of the day, when the sun is beginning to turn on its
burning rays, warming all the inhabited countries of our hemisphere. According to
the legend itself, they wished to represent the inhabitants of Egypt and those of foreign
lands. Thus we have before our eyes the image of the various races of man known to
the Egyptians and we learn at the same time the great geographical or ethnographical
divisions established during that early epoch. Men led by Horus, the shepherd of the
peoples, belong to four distinct families. The first, the one closest to the god, has a dark
red color, a well-proportioned body, kind face, nose slightly aquiline, long braided hair,
and is dressed in white. The legends designate this species as Rot-en-ne-Rome, the race
of men par excellence i.e., the Egyptians. There can be no uncertainty about the racial
identity of the man who comes next: he belongs to the Black race, designated under
the general term Nahasi. The third presents a very different aspect; his skin color borders
on yellow or tan; he has a strongly aquiline nose, thick, black pointed beard, and wears
a short garment of varied colors; these are called Namou. Finally, the last one is what we
call flesh-colored, a white skin of the most delicate shade, a nose straight or slightly arched,
blue eyes, blond or reddish beard, tall stature and very slender clad in a hairy ox-skin, a
veritable savage tattooed on various parts of his body; he is called Tamhou. I hastened to
seek the tableau corresponding to this one in the other royal tombs and, as a matter of fact,
I found it in several. The variations I observed fully convinced me that they had tried to
represent here the inhabitants of the four corners of the earth, according to the Egyptian
system, namely: 1. the inhabitants of Egypt which, by itself, formed one part of the world ...;
2. the inhabitants of Africa proper: Blacks; 3. Asians; 4. finally (and I am ashamed to say so,
since our race is the last and the most savage in the series), Europeans who, in those remote
epochs, frankly did not cut too fine a figure in the world. In this category we must include
all blonds and white-skinned people living not only in Europe, but Asia as well, their starting
point. This manner of viewing the tableau is all the more accurate because, on the other
tombs, the same generic names reappear, always in the same order. We find there Egyptians
and Africans represented in the same way, which could not be otherwise; but the Namou
(the Asians) and the Tamhou (Europeans) present significant and curious variants. Instead
of the Arab or the Jew, dressed simply and represented on one tomb, Asia's representatives
on other tombs (those of Ramses II, etc.) are three individuals, tanned complexion, aquiline
nose, black eyes, and thick beard, but clad in rare splendor. In one, they are evidently
Assyrians, their costume, down to the smallest detail, is identical with that of personages
engraved on Assyrian cylinders. In the other, are Medes or early inhabitants of some part
of Persia. Their physiognomy and dress resemble, feature for feature, those found on
monuments called Persepolitan. Thus, Asia was represented indiscriminately by any one of
the peoples who inhabited it. The same is true of our good old ancestors, the Tamhou. Their
attire is sometimes different; their heads are more or less hairy and adorned with various
ornaments; their savage dress varies somewhat in form, but their white complexion, their
eyes and beard all preserve the character of a race apart. I had this strange ethnographical
series copied and colored. I certainly did not expect, on arriving at Biban-el-Moluk, to find
sculptures that could serve as vignettes for the history of the primitive Europeans, if ever
one has the courage to attempt it. Nevertheless, there is something flattering and consoling
in seeing them, since they make us appreciate the progress we have subsequently achieved."

Categories of the Mural of Races/Table of Nationalities including Champollion's remarks


1) Romé(EGYPTIANS)
(abbreviated; Ret)
Ancient Egyptians: Men. We also have "romé na romé" or "Men above men (mankind)."
Champollion:
The The first, the one closest to the god, has a dark
red color, a well-proportioned body, kind face, nose slightly aquiline, long braided hair,
and is dressed in white. The legends designate this species as Rot-en-ne-Rome, the race
of men par excellence i.e., the Egyptians

________________________________________________

2.Namu(Namou) "Asiatic" may include Syria, elsewhere
Champollion:
presents a very different aspect; his skin color borders
on yellow or tan; he has a strongly aquiline nose, thick, black pointed beard, and wears
a short garment of varied colors; these are called Namou
_________________________________________________

3.Nahasu (Nahasi) - Other Africans foreign to Egypt incl. Kushites/Nubian Strangers or barbarians;
Champollion:
There can be no uncertainty about the racial
identity of the man who comes next: he belongs to the Black race, designated under
the general term Nahasi.

_________________________________________________

4. Tamhu - European: Red/pale yellow people
Champollion:
what we
call flesh-colored, a white skin of the most delicate shade, a nose straight or slightly arched,
blue eyes, blond or reddish beard, tall stature and very slender clad in a hairy ox-skin, a
veritable savage tattooed on various parts of his body; he is called Tamhou.

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posted                      

Actual facts!!!!





http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/4444/16qm1.jpg

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"Remains in the immediate eastern foreland of Kurkur, just east of the Sinn el-Kiddab escarpment, are sparse. Numerous and widely distributed hearth mounds18 occur in the area. Pottery, though sparse, further demonstrates the association of early Nile Valley and Western Desert cultures. "

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The Garamantes flourished in southwestern Libya, in the core of the Sahara Desert ~3,000 years ago and largely controlled trans-Saharan trade. Their biological affinities to other North African populations, including the Egyptian, Algerian, Tunisian and Sudanese, roughly contemporary to them, are examined by means of cranial nonmetric traits using the Mean Measure of Divergence and Mahalanobis D(2) distance. The aim is to shed light on the extent to which the Sahara Desert inhibited extensive population movements and gene flow. Our results show that the Garamantes possess distant affinities to their neighbors. This relationship may be due to the Central Sahara forming a barrier among groups, despite the archaeological evidence for extended networks of contact. The role of the Sahara as a barrier is further corroborated by the significant correlation between the Mahalanobis D(2) distance and geographic distance between the Garamantes and the other populations under study. In contrast, no clear pattern was observed when all North African populations were examined, indicating that there was no uniform gene flow in the region.

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Ancient finds in the Western Desert of Egypt at Gebel Ramlah circa 5,000 BC show culture closely linked with indigenous tropical Africans of both the Saharan and sub-Saharan regions, not Europe or the Middle East. Dental studies put the inhabitants of Gebel Ramlah, closest to indigenous tropical African populations.

"During three seasons of research (in 2000, 2001 and 2003) carried out by the Combined Prehistoric Expedition at Gebel Ramlah in the southern part of the Egyptian Western Desert, three separate Final Neolithic cemeteries were discovered and excavated. Skeletal remains of 67 individuals, comprising both primary and secondary interments, were recovered from 32 discrete burial pits. Numerous grave goods were found, including lithics, pottery and ground stone objects, as well as items of personal adornment, pigments, shells and sheets of mica. Imports from distant areas prove far-reaching contacts.

Analysis of the finds sheds important light on the burial rituals and social conditions of the Final Neolithic cattle keepers inhabiting Ramlah Playa. This community, dated to the mid-fifth millennium B.C. (calibrated), was composed of a phenotypically diverse population derived from both North and sub-Saharan Africa. There were no indications of social differentiation. The deteriorating climatic conditions probably forced these people to migrate toward the Nile Valley where they undoubtedly contributed to the birth of ancient Egyptian civilization."

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"Despite the difference, Gebel Ramlah [the Western Desert- Saharan region] is closest to predynastic and early dynastic samples from Abydos, Hierakonpolis, and Badari.." [the Badarians ]are a "good representative of what the common ancestor to all later predynastic and dynastic Egyptian peoples would be like"

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Evidence from throughout the Sahara indicates that the region experienced a cool, dry and windy climate during the last glacial period, followed by a wetter climate with the onset of the current interglacial, with humid conditions being fully established by around 10,000 years BP, when we see the first evidence of a reoccupation of parts of the central Sahara by hunter gathers, most likely originating from sub-Saharan Africa (Cremaschi and Di Lernia, 1998; Goudie, 1992; Phillipson, 1993; Ritchie, 1994; Roberts, 1998).


[...]


Conical tumuli, platform burials and a V-type monument represent structures similar to those found in other Saharan regions and associated with human burials, appearing in sixth millennium BP onwards in northeast Niger and southwest Libya (Sivilli, 2002). In the latter area a shift in emphasis from faunal to human burials, complete by the early fifth millennium BP, has been interpreted by Di Lernia and Manzi (2002) as being associated with a changes in social organisation that occurred at a time of increasing aridity. While further research is required in order to place the funerary monuments of Western Sahara in their chronological context, we can postulate a similar process as a hypothesis to be tested, based on the high density of burial sites recorded in the 2002 survey. Fig. 2: Megaliths associated with tumulus burial (to right of frame), north of Tifariti (Fig. 1). A monument consisting of sixty five stelae was also of great interest; precise alignments north and east, a division of the area covered into separate units, and a deliberate scattering of quartzite inside the structure, are suggestive of an astronomical function associated with funerary rituals. Stelae are also associated with a number of burial sites, again suggesting dual funerary and astronomical functions (Figure 2). Further similarities with other Saharan regions are evident in the rock art recorded in the study area, although local stylistic developments are also apparent. Carvings of wild fauna at the site of Sluguilla resemble the Tazina style found in Algeria, Libya and Morocco (Pichler and Rodrigue, 2003), although examples of elephant and rhinoceros in a naturalistic style reminiscent of engravings from the central Sahara believed to date from the early Holocene are also present.

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Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
[QB]


http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/4444/16qm1.jpg

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^^typical Libyan


see, she could almost be like his daughter, uncanny



Faience tiles from the royal palace at Medinet Habu, depicting
foreign prisoners of Ramesses III: Libyan, Nubian, Syrian,
Shasu Bedouin, and Hittite.

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posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

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Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
[QB]


http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/4444/16qm1.jpg

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^^typical Libyan


see, she could almost be like his daughter, uncanny



Faience tiles from the royal palace at Medinet Habu, depicting
foreign prisoners of Ramesses III: Libyan, Nubian, Syrian,
Shasu Bedouin, and Hittite.

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The Uan Muhuggia Mummy

quote:

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For years, Italian Anthropologist Fabrizio Mori has been trekking into the Libyan Desert to look for graffiti, ancient inscriptions on rocks. Near the oasis of Ghat, 500 miles south of the Mediterranean coast, he found on his last expedition a shallow cave with many graffiti scratched on its walls. When he dug into the sandy floor, he found a peculiar bundle: a goatskin wrapped around the desiccated body of a child. The entrails had been removed and replaced by a bundle of herbs.

Such deliberate mummification was practiced chiefly by the ancient Egyptians. But when Dr. Mori took the mummy back to Italy and had its age measured by the carbon 14 method, it proved to be 5,400 years old—considerably older than the oldest known civilization in the valley of the Nile 900 miles to the east.

The discovery suggested a clue to one of the great puzzles of Egyptology: Where was the birthplace of Egyptian culture? Although many authorities believe it is the world's oldest, they have been perplexed by the fact that it did not develop gradually in the Nile Valley. About 3200 B.C. the First Dynasty appeared there suddenly and full grown, with an elaborate religion, laws, arts and crafts, and a system of writing. Until that time the Nile Valley was apparently inhabited by neolithic people on a low cultural level. Dr. Mori's mummy provides support for the theory that Egyptian culture grew by slow stages in the Sahara, which was not then a desert. When the climate grew insupportably dry, the already civilized Egyptians took refuge in the Nile Valley, and the sands of the Sahara swept over their former home.

The mummy does not prove that there is a civilization buried in the Sahara but it does mean that, in the next few years, the desert will be swarming with anthropologists looking for one.

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Sourced by: Time Magazine.


http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,865145,00.html





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5bkNlGg0H0

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Originally posted by the lioness,:


^^^^ Fake Libyans

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They are already getting considerably darker. Perhaps, that makes them fake?

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The eastern Sahara of Egypt, Sudan and Libya – also called the 'Libyan Desert'– constitutes the most arid part of the entire Sahara, with almost no rainfall and thus a lack of any human occupation. For this reason, and because the climate regime is not influenced by higher topographic features, this region provides a unique study area for the relationship between changing climates and human occupation, using Man as a sensitive indicator of past living conditions. In a synoptic view based on some 500 radiocarbon dates, the Holocene human occupation of the eastern Sahara is presented here in four major time slices. To cite this article: R. Kuper, C. R. Palevol 5 (2006).

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posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
Actual facts!!!!





http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/4444/16qm1.jpg

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posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

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Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
Actual facts!!!!





http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/4444/16qm1.jpg


http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/images/hb/hb_07.228.34.jpg

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notice how the girl's nose matches the statue's nose, actual facts !!!

.

.

http://wiki.ironchariots.org/images/thumb/b/b8/Cherry_picking_med.jpg/180px-Cherry_picking_med.jpg

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quote:

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Originally posted by Tukuler:


* Egypt is not primarily African
* Libya is not primarily African

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Narmer Palette

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posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

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Originally posted by Tukuler:


* Egypt is not primarily African
* Libya is not primarily African

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Narmer Palette

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posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

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Yes, I agree. That's what you just did!

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posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
However, I have posted about archeology and anthropology, the original inhabitance. Something you still can't comprehend.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:

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posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
Yes, I agree. That's what you just did!

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quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness, earlier in thread




Libyan Captives

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quote:

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Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:

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posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

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Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
Yes, I agree. That's what you just did!

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quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness, earlier in thread




Libyan Captives

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quote:

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Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:

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so you pick from the same cherry tree ?

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Odd how they have changed so suddenly, from those in your previous posts.

Anyway, I pick from the tree that shows archeological and anthropological similarities. You just pick any fruit fresh or rotten. You just pick for the picking.

Yours is like processed food, mine is like fresh Wholefoods, full of nutrition. Good for the brain.

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posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

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Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
However, I have posted about archeology and anthropology, the original inhabitance. Something you still can't comprehend.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:

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these are Libyans ?

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quote:

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Cattle pastoralism is an important trait of African cultures. Ethnographic studies describe the central role played by domestic cattle within many societies, highlighting its social and ideological value well beyond its mere function as ‘walking larder’. Historical depth of this African legacy has been repeatedly assessed in an archaeological perspective, mostly emphasizing a continental vision. Nevertheless, in-depth site-specific studies, with a few exceptions, are lacking. Despite the long tradition of a multi-disciplinary approach to the analysis of pastoral systems in Africa, rarely do early and middle Holocene archaeological contexts feature in the same area the combination of settlement, ceremonial and rock art features so as to be multi-dimensionally explored: the Messak plateau in the Libyan central Sahara represents an outstanding exception. Known for its rich Pleistocene occupation and abundant Holocene rock art, the region, through our research, has also shown to preserve the material evidence of a complex ritual dated to the Middle Pastoral (6080–5120 BP or 5200– 3800 BC). This was centred on the frequent deposition in stone monuments of disarticulated animal remains, mostly cattle. Animal burials are known also from other African contexts, but regional extent of the phenomenon, state of preservation of monuments, and associated rock art make the Messak case unique. GIS analysis, excavation data, radiocarbon dating, zooarchaeological and isotopic (Sr, C, O) analyses of animal remains, and botanical information are used to explore this highly formalized ritual and the lifeways of a pastoral community in the Holocene Sahara.

[...]


Middle Pastoral herders of the central Sahara


Cattle and small livestock were introduced in the Central Sahara at the end of the 8th millennium BP, and slowly adopted by local groups of hunter-gatherers [2]. In the Acacus and Messak mountains (SW Libya) a full exploitation of domesticates, which included dairying [7], is dated to the Middle Pastoral (6100– 5000 BP), a cultural phase generally characterized by wet and warm environmental conditions [34–36].

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--Mary Anne Tafuri et al., Inside the ‘‘African Cattle Complex’’: Animal Burials in the Holocene Central Sahara

quote:

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Archaeologists have uncovered 20 Stone-Age skeletons in and around a rock shelter in Libya's Sahara desert, according to a new study.

The skeletons date between 8,000 and 4,200 years ago, meaning the burial place was used for millennia.

"It must have been a place of memory," said study co-author Mary Anne Tafuri, an archaeologist at the University of Cambridge. "People throughout time have kept it, and they have buried their people, over and over, generation after generation."


About 15 women and children were buried in the rock shelter, while five men and juveniles were buried under giant stone heaps called tumuli outside the shelter during a later period, when the region turned to desert.

The findings, which are detailed in the March issue of the Journal of Anthropological Archaeology, suggest the culture changed with the climate.

Millennia of burials

From about 8,000 to 6,000 years ago, the Sahara desert region, called Wadi Takarkori, was filled with scrubby vegetation and seasonal green patches. Stunning rock art depicts ancient herding animals, such as cows, which require much more water to graze than the current environment could support, Tafuri said.

Tafuri and her colleague Savino di Lernia began excavating the archaeological site between 2003 and 2006. At the same site, archaeologists also uncovered huts, animal bones and pots with traces of the earliest fermented dairy products in Africa. [See Images of the Stone-Age Skeletons]

To date the skeletons, Tafuri measured the remains for concentrations of isotopes, or molecules of the same element with different weights.

The team concluded that the skeletons were buried over four millennia, with most of the remains in the rock shelter buried between 7,300 and 5,600 years ago.

The males and juveniles under the stone heaps were buried starting 4,500 years ago, when the region became more arid. Rock art confirms the dry up, as the cave paintings began to depict goats, which need much less water to graze than cows, Tafuri said.

The ancient people also grew up not far from the area where they were buried, based on a comparison of isotopes in tooth enamel, which forms early in childhood, with elements in the nearby environment.

Shift in culture?

The findings suggest the burial place was used for millennia by the same group of people. It also revealed a divided society.

"The exclusive use of the rock shelter for female and sub-adult burials points to a persistent division based on gender," wrote Marina Gallinaro, a researcher in African studies at Sapienza University of Rome, who was not involved in the study, in an email to LiveScience.

One possibility is that during the earlier period, women had a more critical role in the society, and families may have even traced their descent through the female line. But once the Sahara began its inexorable expansion into the region about 5,000 years ago, the culture shifted and men's prominence may have risen as a result, Gallinaro wrote.

The region as a whole is full of hundreds of sites yet to be excavated, said Luigi Boitani, a biologist at Sapienza University of Rome, who has worked on archaeological sites in the region but was not involved in the study.

"The area is an untapped treasure," Boitani said.

The new discovery also highlights the need to protect the fragile region, which has been closed to archaeologists since the revolution that ousted dictator Moammar el Gadhafi.

Takarkori is very close to the main road that leads from Libya into neighboring Niger, so rebels and other notorious political figures, such as Gadhafi's sons, have frequently passed through the area to escape the country, he said.

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Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by al~Takruri


Denkmaeler plate 136ab as in KV17 tomb of Seti I chamber F
Book of Gates the Gate of Teka Hra vignette 30 full repro

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.





Faience tiles from the royal palace at Medinet Habu, depicting
foreign prisoners of Ramesses III: Libyan, Nubian, Syrian,
Shasu Bedouin, and Hittite.

Libyan at rigjht


______________________________________________


^^^ Troll Patrol deal with this stuff rather than not dealing with it and presenting different artifacts to try to avoid dealing with it

In Book of Gates and scenes of war, at several locations Egyptologists recorded and documented Egyptians as reddish brown or brown and Meshwesh Libyans noticeably lighter

Why I ask you ???

Do you have an answer ???

Dogma ??

Could SOME of the Libyans of the Ramesses II period have been derived from foreign elements like Sea people?

You never deal with the above art, you simply switch to other art

Look at the bottom panel it's right off the tomb wall

There are book of gates scenes in several tombs and war scenes.
They show Egyptians as reddish brown or medium to dark brown, Kushites as jet black and Libyans much lighter than the Egyptians

How can you then argue that all Libyans were exactly the same darkness of the Egyptians ??

Will you get real and deal with this instead of switching the artifacts because you can't explain these ???

stop flipping the script


In my original post I put up Libyans in Egyptian art and had bother the lighter examples and the reddish brown example, same source on one that you also put up

So you ignored all the lighter more yellowish examples and only put up reddish brown

--and as if brown skinned proves they were all indigenous African

Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

---

Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
^^^ These prehistoric skeletons prove nothing
why are you wasting post space?

quote:

---

Originally posted by al~Takruri


Denkmaeler plate 136ab as in KV17 tomb of Seti I chamber F
Book of Gates the Gate of Teka Hra vignette 30 full repro

---

.





Faience tiles from the royal palace at Medinet Habu, depicting
foreign prisoners of Ramesses III: Libyan, Nubian, Syrian,
Shasu Bedouin, and Hittite.

Libyan at rigjht


______________________________________________


^^^ Troll Patrol deal with this stuff rather than not dealing with it and presenting different artifacts to try to avoid dealing with it

In Book of Gates and scenes of war, at several locations Egyptologists recorded and documented Egyptians as reddish brown or brown and Meshwesh Libyans noticeably lighter

Why I ask you ???

Do you have an answer ???

Dogma ??

Could SOME of the Libyans of the Ramesses II period have been derived from foreign elements like Sea people?

You never deal with the above art, you simply switch to other art

Look at the bottom panel it's right off the tomb wall

There are book of gates scenes in several tombs and war scenes.
They show Egyptians as reddish brown or medium to dark brown, Kushites as jet black and Libyans much lighter than the Egyptians

How can you then argue that all Libyans were exactly the same darkness of the Egyptians ??

Will you get real and deal with this instead of switching the artifacts because you can't explain these ???

stop flipping the script


In my original post I put up Libyans in Egyptian art and had bother the lighter examples and the reddish brown example, same source on one that you also put up

So you ignored all the lighter more yellowish examples and only put up reddish brown

--and as if brown skinned proves they were all indigenous African

---

quote:

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Large-scale climate change forms the backdrop to the beginnings of food production in northeastern Africa (Kröpelin et al. 2008). Hunter-gatherer communities deserted most of the northern interior of the continent during the arid glacial maximum and took refuge along the North African coast, the Nile Valley, and the southern fringes of the Sahara (Barich and Garcea 2008; Garcea 2006; Kuper and Kröpelin 2006). During the subsequent Early Holocene African humid phase, from the mid-eleventh to the early ninth millennium cal BP, ceramic-using hunter-gatherers took advantage of more favorable savanna conditions to resettle much of northeastern Africa (Holl 2005; Kuper and Kröpelin 2006). Evidence of domestic animals first appeared in sites in the Western Desert of Egypt, the Khartoum region of the Nile, northern Niger, the Acacus Mountains of Libya, and Wadi Howar (Garcea 2004, 2006; Pöllath and Peters 2007; fig. 1).

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quote:

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Originally posted by Swenet:

http://www.academia.edu/677017/Human_Skeletal_Remains_Fazzan_Libya

Wow. Just wow. Have we stumbled upon the elusive Neolithic E-M81 carrying Proto-Berber speakers?

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Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Tukuler:
This is a fake.
Compare to other copies of the same.
Its nose is altered.

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

---

---

Thanks for correcting me here.
I had been looking at the fake version.
We can clearly see in the correct version you have posted the man is clearly black.

Here's another correct version, a little better quality :

http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/picture09242003.htm

____________________________________same result, obvious faded paint black dude


another similar item, Libyan at left

http://www.corbisimages.com/stock-photo/rights-managed/BE087367/egyptian-faience-court-scene-with-foreigners-from




.


,

quote:

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Originally posted by Amun Ra

---

^^^^ Amun Ra, this reference can't be right, where is this red or blonde hair stuff ??

Look at the Libyans above, obviousy blacks who came from the South
no blonde or red hair in the art



^^^^ Look at this, they are all the same people , the Nubans, Egyptians, Libyan Berbers

All E carriers

Look even the new 2014 DNATribes chart confirms it




http://www.dnatribes.com/dnatribes-digest-2014-02-01.pdf

____________________________________

you had it right, DNATribes has it down with the PN2 clade

It's that E3 stuff linking em all together


apolgies to Troll Patroll

Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
^^^^ Amun Ra, this reference can't be right, where is this red or blonde hair stuff ??

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Posts: 2981 | Registered: Jan 2012  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:]This has no interest for me since this is what the Ancient Greeks said, not Ancient Egyptians.

This thread should be about Ancient Egyptian culture and more precisely their relations with foreign people and nations. [/QB]

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Ok but then you need quotes from the Greeks

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/herod-libya1.asp

_______________________

http://www.brill.com/products/book/herodotus-nubia


László Török, Hungarian Academy of Sciences, Archaeological Institute
Twentieth century commentaries on Herodotus' passages on Nubia, the historical kingdom of Kush and the Aithiopia of the Greek tradition, rely mostly on an outdated and biased interpretation of the textual and archaeological evidence. Disputing both the Nubia image of twentieth century Egyptology and the Herodotus interpretation of traditional Quellenkritik, the author traces back the Aithiopian information that was available to Herodotus to a discourse on Kushite kingship created under the Nubian pharaohs of the Twenty-Fifth Dynasty and preserved in the Ptah sanctuary at Memphis. Insufficient for a self-contained Aithiopian logos, the information acquired by Herodotus complements and supports accounts of the land, origins, customs and history of other peoples and bears a relation to the intention of the actual narrative contexts into which the author of The Histories inserted it.

Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:

This is a fake.
Compare to other copies of the same.
Its nose is altered.

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

---

---

Thanks for correcting me here.
I had been looking at the fake version.
We can clearly see in the correct version you have posted the man is clearly black.

Here's another correct version, a little better quality :

http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/picture09242003.htm

____________________________________same result, obvious faded paint black dude

---

Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Turkuler:



Originally posted by Turkuler:
Forgive me ARtU but I can't let this pass.
This is a perfect example of strawman
building.

Nowhere can the lioness quote me saying
this Tjemehu is black. He's an African no
doubt. His facial features appear today
in modern Libyans. In fact I would use
them to help differentiate one type of
native Libyan from foreign conquerors
who by nationality today are Libyans.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:.

Nowhere can the lioness quote me saying
this Tjemehu is black. He's an African no
doubt.

---

I don't have to.

It is a convention on Egyptsearch
that all non-foreign Africans are Black.
-whatever the skin tone



You didn't say the Libyan at top was part African you simply said African and added the with emphasis, "undoubtedly African"

if you want to surprise the readership and introduce a new idea -- that there IS such thing as non-foreign African that is not by default black
I suggest you do so because that is a novel concept to Egyptsearch members.


Try asking Troll Patrol if there is such thing as an indigenous African who is not black, that is not going to fly on ES.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:

He's an African no
doubt. His facial features appear today
in modern Libyans. In fact I would use
them to help differentiate one type of
native Libyan from foreign conquerors
who by nationality today are Libyans.

---

So within the primarily Eurasian modern Libyan population we can teil the foreign conqueror features
They are the features that don't look like this guy's
features, he represent the oringinal indigenous African features


So were the first foreigners in Libya?
When did they get there?
Were they also the first conquerors of Libya?

Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged |