quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: @Beyoku
OOA migrants at the moment of the out of Africa migrations were related to the African populations from the Y-DNA haplogroup CT and MtDNA L3. Those 2 haplogroups form the major parts of the Yoruba and Somali people as well as most of the East and West African populations. All modern Eurasians are from the CT and L3 haplogroups found among both East and West Africans too.
That doesn't answer the question though. What is basal Eurasian and is it African or not? Who carries it? Furthermore you concentration on L3 totally disregards the history of L4, L5, L6 and L7. Why can't you answer a VERY simple question about basal Eurasian. I am talking about autosomal affinity. You are stuck on Uni parental haplogroups which give you very little information in population substructure.
The CT and L3 populations, namely Niger-Kordofanian, Cushitic and Chadic speakers share a close autosomal affinity. A modest full genome genetic distance between each others. So they share a close haplogroups as well as autosomal affinity.
The substructure in Africa during the OOA migrations was between CT/L3 populations and non-CT/L3 populations like Mbuti people. Eurasians were more related to the CT/L3 populations than the Mbuti populations.
Stop being obsessed with Eurasian people and their substructure like the putative basal Eurasian component. The study clearly mention it as non-African component (click to see). It was also never replicated or discussed in another study as it's often the case with Admixture software compoments. So when you keep talking about it, it smells undercover racists. I like world history but what you're doing is only to deceive people. I know you're not black and European history is actually your history but please give us a break. It's just stupid and ridiculous. It's not good for you.
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quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: @Beyoku
OOA migrants at the moment of the out of Africa migrations were related to the African populations from the Y-DNA haplogroup CT and MtDNA L3. Those 2 haplogroups form the major parts of the Yoruba and Somali people as well as most of the East and West African populations. All modern Eurasians are from the CT and L3 haplogroups found among both East and West Africans too.
That doesn't answer the question though. What is basal Eurasian and is it African or not? Who carries it? Furthermore you concentration on L3 totally disregards the history of L4, L5, L6 and L7. Why can't you answer a VERY simple question about basal Eurasian. I am talking about autosomal affinity. You are stuck on Uni parental haplogroups which give you very little information in population substructure.
Eurasians were more related to the CT/L3 populations than the Mbuti populations.
As you write that you debunk yourself dumbass. Now if a subset of the CT/L3 populations (let's use north East Africans carrying m78 and m123 ) colonize and mix with Eurasians over 10 thousand years.....passing their African related ancestry to populations in th Middle East wouldn't that then make populations in the Middle East closer to north East Africans dumbass? And If there is a two way exchange of ancestry wouldn't that draw the populations even closer? This is simple biology.
You admit they are closer to certain Africans instead of pygmies.......well what about Khoisan. Look at the PCA plot that captures the diversity to see exactly how close they are. I don't even have to argue you just countered your own argument. You also noted that African ancestry in north east Africa has changed.
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beyoku:blablabla eurasian blablabla middle east blablabla eurasian blablabla
Give it up
Ancient Egyptians were, based on current genetic and archaeological knowledge, Africans related to black indigenous African populations like Karrayyu, Somali, Wolof, Yoruba, Zulu, etc.
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Heck that's also a reason why Greeks are closer to Africans than any other Europeans, because exchange of genes. E-V13? Of course I'm talking about genetic distance. Correct me if I'm wrong.
@Amun-Ra The Ultimate
Not tying to cheer lead, but that's not debunking what he said...
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@BlessedbyHorus There's nothing to debunk. Yes, there's some African admixtures in modern Middle East and European populations (and vice versa). For example, Einstein was from the African haplogroup E (e1b1b). I mentioned it many times already. This well after the OOA migrations, so irrelevant to the subject of discussion (started here).
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quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: @BlessedbyHorus There's nothing to debunk. Yes, there's some African admixtures in modern Middle East and European populations (and vice versa). For example, Einstein was from the African haplogroup E (e1b1b). I mentioned it many times already. This well after the OOA migrations, so irrelevant to the subject of discussion (started here).
LOL According to the current data East Africa is home to nearly 2/3 of the world genetic diversity independent of sampling effect. Similar figure have been suggested for sub-Saharan Africa populations [1]. The antiquity of the east African gene pool could be viewed not only from the perspective of the amount of genetic diversity endowed within it but also by signals of uni-modal distribution in their mitochondrial DNA (Hassan et al., unpublished) usually taken as an indication of populations that have passed through ‘‘recent’’ demographic expansion [33], although in this case, may in fact be considered a sign of extended shared history of in situ evolution where alleles are exchanged between neighboring demes [34].
The figure, besides a separate clustering of east Africans, indicates the substantial contribution of Africans and east Africans to the founding of populations of Europe and Asia.
--Jibril Hirbo, Sara Tishkoff et al.
The Episode of Genetic Drift Defining the Migration of Humans out of Africa Is Derived from a Large East African Population Size
PLoS One. 2014; 9(5): e97674. Published online 2014 May 20. doi: 10.1371/journal.pone.0097674
Posts: 22243 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor: The Episode of Genetic Drift Defining the Migration of Humans out of Africa Is Derived from a Large East African Population Size
I don't see why you need to quote me to post this. Yes, OOA migrants are from Eastern Africa. They were from the Haplogroups CT and L3. So are most African populations like East/West Africans and Bantu. In fact, East/West African populations share a common origin for the most part of their ancestry well after the OOA migrations. This explain why they are genetically close to each others.
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To put this into perspective, I calculated the proportion of Y-DNA and MtDNA shared between modern Yoruba and Somali populations:
For Y-DNA: Yoruba P2(PN2)/e1b1a 93.1% Somali P2(PN2)/e1b1b 81.1% (using numbers from here)
For MtDNA (L2a, L3bf, L3cd, L3eikx, L0a1): Yoruba 75.75% Somali 66.93% (using the numbers from Here)
We can see that in this example, Somali and Yoruba, share a high proportion of common grandmothers and a common grandfather in their populations. Modern East Africans like Somali, also possess a substantial amount of Eurasian haplogroups due mainly to migratory events from the last 3000 years (thus well after the foundation of Ancient Egypt). I have already discussed autosomal DNA above in this thread here.
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quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: @BlessedbyHorus There's nothing to debunk. Yes, there's some African admixtures in modern Middle East and European populations (and vice versa). For example, Einstein was from the African haplogroup E (e1b1b). I mentioned it many times already. This well after the OOA migrations, so irrelevant to the subject of discussion (started here).
It does matter You Big DUMMY. We are talking about populations diversity in the HEAR AND NOW..........not hypothesizing what populations would have been like 70 THOUSAND YEARS AGO! As we speak NOW there is a cline of Ancestry/diversity that starts as usual from Hunter Gatherers/Khoi Pastoralists - And proceeds smoothly into the Middle East. Practically ALL Sub Saharan and African populations will be intermediate between Khoisan and Bedouin. Some will be closer to the Khoi (TWA) while others will be very close to the Bedouin (Mozabite). This genetic cline is based on many factors. OOA, African sub Structure. African --> Eurasian geneflow, Eurasian --> African gene flow. etc etc. The fact that the shared admixture happened AFTER OOA is EXACTLY THE POINT!
quote: The CT and L3 populations, namely Niger-Kordofanian, Cushitic and Chadic speakers share a close autosomal affinity. A modest full genome genetic distance between each others. So they share a close haplogroups as well as autosomal affinity. - YOU
Mean while in the real world, the diversity of African populations is great enough (Particularly with HUNTER GATHERS ARE INCLUDED) that Cushitic and Niger Kordofanian speakers have a distance that is further than Paupans vs Indians or Indians vs Sardinians. The distance between Somali and Ju Hoan koi is damn over twice that of the distance between Sardinians and Paupans:
Looking at that chart above the ENTIRE CLINE OF Eurasians centered on Sardinians FITS IN BETWEEN the distance of Jo Hoan North to African Americans.
IF you think all these populations are genetically close you are out of your damn mind.
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quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: @BlessedbyHorus There's nothing to debunk. Yes, there's some African admixtures in modern Middle East and European populations (and vice versa). For example, Einstein was from the African haplogroup E (e1b1b). I mentioned it many times already. This well after the OOA migrations, so irrelevant to the subject of discussion (started here).
I think what he is essentially saying is this...
quote: The African diversity estimate is even higher than that between Africans and Eurasians (0.096% +/- 0.012%). From available data for noncoding autosomal regions (total length = 47,038 bp) and X-linked regions (47,421 bp), we estimated the pi-values for autosomal regions to be 0.105, 0.070, 0.069, and 0.097% for Africans, Asians, Europeans, and between Africans and Eurasians, and the corresponding values for X-linked regions to be 0.088, 0.042, 0.053, and 0.082%. Thus, Africans differ from one another slightly more than from Eurasians, and the genetic diversity in Eurasians is largely a subset of that in Africans, supporting the out of Africa model of human evolution. Clearly, one must specify the geographic origins of the individuals sampled when studying pi or SNP density.
This makes sense considering Eurasians DESCEND from certain East Africans and not "other" Africans... So of course East Africans would be genetically closer to Eurasians like Southwest Asians.
Beyoku(if I am reading him right) is NOT saying East Africans or the Ancient Egyptians are NOT African, what he is saying is compared to other Africans like "West Africans", East Africans are closer to Eurasians. Doesn't mean they are admixed.
M and N anyone?
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^^You're mixing up ancient East Africans from 60 000 years ago with modern East Africans!!!
Both modern East and West Africans (as well as Eurasians) are descendant from some ancient East Africans populations 60 000 years ago. Modern Mbuti and Khoisan people are not descendant from this same East African population (beside through recent admixtures).
As for knowing which African population is close to who when the recent Eurasian admixture is removed. We have it here.
The genetic distance between modern Yoruba and Eurasian(European) is 0.72 and between Eurasian and modern East African populations is 0.99 (lowest value).
No speculation here. Just hard facts.
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quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: @BlessedbyHorus There's nothing to debunk. Yes, there's some African admixtures in modern Middle East and European populations (and vice versa). For example, Einstein was from the African haplogroup E (e1b1b). I mentioned it many times already. This well after the OOA migrations, so irrelevant to the subject of discussion (started here).
I think what he is essentially saying is this...
quote: The African diversity estimate is even higher than that between Africans and Eurasians (0.096% +/- 0.012%). From available data for noncoding autosomal regions (total length = 47,038 bp) and X-linked regions (47,421 bp), we estimated the pi-values for autosomal regions to be 0.105, 0.070, 0.069, and 0.097% for Africans, Asians, Europeans, and between Africans and Eurasians, and the corresponding values for X-linked regions to be 0.088, 0.042, 0.053, and 0.082%. Thus, Africans differ from one another slightly more than from Eurasians, and the genetic diversity in Eurasians is largely a subset of that in Africans, supporting the out of Africa model of human evolution. Clearly, one must specify the geographic origins of the individuals sampled when studying pi or SNP density.
This makes sense considering Eurasians DESCEND from certain East Africans and not "other" Africans... So of course East Africans would be genetically closer to Eurasians like Southwest Asians.
Beyoku(if I am reading him right) is NOT saying East Africans or the Ancient Egyptians are NOT African, what he is saying is compared to other Africans like "West Africans", East Africans are closer to Eurasians. Doesn't mean they are admixed.
M and N anyone?
Of course you got it correct and he didnt. Its plain as day. Its its even more obvious because we know Populations outside of Africa have Ethiopian and Egyptian ancestry. They make it pretty clear:
quote: The African diversity estimate is even higher than that between Africans and Eurasians
Now when we include the most diverse Africans guess what happens?
@ Amun Ra the Dummy. Your argument about Ancient East Africans vs Modern ones falls flat because you dont have Ancient East African genomes....THe CLOSEST thing that COULD approximate are East African Khoisan speakers. NOW going back to the PCA look at the distance between Southern African Khoi and East Africa Khoisan speakers....that alone is huge....Why? See above quote. So we are not talking about Modern Admixture. To drive the point home lets remove East Africans from the discussion entirely. The Distance from Ju Hoan North to Mandinks is STILL nearly the entire range of the distance from Sardinia to Native Americans.
Get a clue dude. Everyone here sees the obvious.
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quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: ^^You're mixing up ancient East Africans from 60 000 years ago with modern East Africans!!!
Both modern East and West Africans (as well as Eurasians) are descendant from some ancient East Africans populations 60 000 years ago. Modern Mbuti and Khoisan people are not descendant from this same East African population (beside through recent admixtures).
As for knowing which African population is close to who when the recent Eurasian admixture is removed. We have it here.
The genetic distance between modern Yoruba and Eurasian(European) is 0.72 and between Eurasian and modern East African populations is 0.99 (lowest value).
No speculation here. Just hard facts.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
excerpt of comment from Forum Biodiversity member ep2
quote:
It must be noted that this affiliations with Yoruba is very remote. It is most probable than both East and West Africans share ancestors with Ancient Egyptians, post-OOA but at a time much earlier than the foundation of Ancient Egypt. So Yoruba probably share ancestors with Ancient Egyptians at a time period before 10 000 years ago, maybe even before 20 000 years ago. Some of those ancestors eventually went to West Africa (through the Green Sahara) while others eventually settled along the Nile Valley.
In general, this study says to us OOA migrants (modern Eurasians) were closer to Yoruba than modern East Africans. Let's recall that during the OOA migrations, both East and West Africans were still one people carrying the Y-DNA CT haplogroup (OOA are all from the CT haplogroup as are 90% of modern Yoruba and 80% of Somali). It's only afterward that the E1b1a and E1b1b haplogroup appeared in Africa. It seems random genetic drift, made the Yoruba closer to the ancient Egyptians from 60 000 years ago (that is much before the foundation of Ancient Egypt).
quote:
The affinity of the Egyptian African component with the modern East and West African populations (green component in Figure 1B, K = 5) could be due to either a continuity of human presence in the area or recent gene flow from neighboring African regions resulting from demographic processes and slave trade over the last two millennia.23 --Tracing the Route of Modern Humans out of Africa by Using 225 Human Genome Sequences from Ethiopians and Egyptians Pagani 2015
quote:Originally posted by beyoku: Of course you got it correct and he didnt. Its plain as day. Its its even more obvious because we know Populations outside of Africa have Ethiopian and Egyptian ancestry. They make it pretty clear:
quote: The African diversity estimate is even higher than that between Africans and Eurasians
Now when we include the most diverse Africans guess what happens?
Its pretty much common sense when we put things into context. And lets not forget the spread of Afro-Asiatic from Africa to Southwest Asia. So obviously the Ethiopian and Egyptian ancestry could also come from that.
This is also the reason why Greeks and Balkans out of other Europeans are closer to Africans via genetic distance. Due to gene flow from Africa then the Near East and then into Southeast Europe. Basically a "link". This doesn't mean Greeks and Balkans are any less European, just that in terms of genetic distance they are closer to Africans than other Europeans.
quote:HLA alleles have been determined in individuals from the Republic of Macedonia by DNA typing and sequencing. HLA-A, -B, -DR, -DQ allele frequencies and extended haplotypes have been for the first time determined and the results compared to those of other Mediterraneans, particularly with their neighbouring Greeks. Genetic distances, neighbor-joining dendrograms and correspondence analysis have been performed. The following conclusions have been reached: 1) Macedonians belong to the "older" Mediterranean substratum, like Iberians (including Basques), North Africans, Italians, French, Cretans, Jews, Lebanese, Turks (Anatolians), Armenians and Iranians, 2) Macedonians are not related with geographically close Greeks, who do not belong to the "older" Mediterranenan substratum, 3) Greeks are found to have a substantial relatedness to sub-Saharan (Ethiopian) people, which separate them from other Mediterranean groups. Both Greeks and Ethiopians share quasi-specific DRB1 alleles, such as *0305, *0307, *0411, *0413, *0416, *0417, *0420, *1110, *1112, *1304 and *1310. Genetic distances are closer between Greeks and Ethiopian/sub-Saharan groups than to any other Mediterranean group and finally Greeks cluster with Ethiopians/sub-Saharans in both neighbour joining dendrograms and correspondence analyses. The time period when these relationships might have occurred was ancient but uncertain and might be related to the displacement of Egyptian-Ethiopian people living in pharaonic Egypt.
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor: The Episode of Genetic Drift Defining the Migration of Humans out of Africa Is Derived from a Large East African Population Size
I don't see why you need to quote me to post this. Yes, OOA migrants are from Eastern Africa. They were from the Haplogroups CT and L3. So are most African populations like East/West Africans and Bantu. In fact, East/West African populations share a common origin for the most part of their ancestry well after the OOA migrations. This explain why they are genetically close to each others.
Amusing how you run from the facts:
According to the current data East Africa is home to nearly 2/3 of the world genetic diversity independent of sampling effect.Posts: 22243 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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