posted
^ Somali haven't ever been food producers though. Pastoral activity in the region goes back at least 5000ybp based on material culture and Cave art.
Posts: 2463 | From: New Jersey USA | Registered: Dec 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Kabyle Berber: Rather lame. By the same logic, an Englishman can attach himself to Balto-Slavic or Scandinavian history or culture -thousands of miles away-, just because these peoples trivially share pale-pink/white skin.
Isn't it what is done when the American/British education system consider Ancient Greece part of their history? When American/British production make movies and TV series about the Vikings. When some of your sport teams are called Vikings. When your superheroes are called Thor?
Posts: 2981 | Registered: Jan 2012
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quote:Originally posted by Kabyle Berber: Rather lame. By the same logic, an Englishman can attach himself to Balto-Slavic or Scandinavian history or culture -thousands of miles away-, just because these peoples trivially share pale-pink/white skin.
Isn't it what is done when the American/British education system consider Ancient Greece part of their history? When American/British production make movies and TV series about the Vikings. When some of your sport teams are called Vikings. When your superheroes are called Thor?
Posts: 2463 | From: New Jersey USA | Registered: Dec 2007
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quote:How I became interested in this topic, somewhere in the 90's I was at the library in Rotterdam, Holland, roaming around, picking up books to read as I did often. When I saw this coffee table book on Egyptology. It had large colorful images. With pictures of people who appeard black to me. I was like in my early teens, a grown woman was also in the section of history books, as she looked at me, looked at the pictures on the page of that book, then smiled at me. At that same time an elderly man, about 60 years old entered the section, also looked at what I was reading, but gave this hateful look full of anger and envy. It was an odd and confusing experience. Later that day, I went to my cousin and older nice, looked at my her and told her about my experience and how much she looked like those females depicted, with almond shaped eyes.
Her skin tone is what we call caramel, while mine is what we call chocolate. We are both being considered black in this society.
Now, some of the things I learned here while being on Egyptsearch as I learned on the topic. Are things like prognathism and other biological "affinities" members here spoke about, this from both parties. Before this time I never looked at people (in general) like this.
This even confuses me more, because some of my family has prognathism, others slightly and others have none. This goes across all color barriers we have, as well as hair texture. But in society we are all looked at as blacks.
Yet, when it comes to the topic of Egypt. ... When I was in Egypt people considered me local, ever since my arrival at Hurghada, as did "whites" who were traveling along the same route.
Rather lame. By the same logic, an Englishman can attach himself to Balto-Slavic or Scandinavian history or culture -thousands of miles away-, just because these peoples trivially share pale-pink/white skin.
But that is what they do, rather lame but true. That was well analyzed.
quote: E-M78 subclades
The distribution of E-M78 subclades among Sudanese is shown in Table 2. Only two chromosomes fell under the paragroup E-M78*. E-V65 and E-V13 were completely absent in the samples analyzed, whereas the other subclades were relatively common. E-V12* accounts for 19.3% and is widely distributed among Sudanese. E-V32 (51.8%) is by far the most common sub- clades among Sudanese. It has the highest frequency among populations of western Sudan and Beja. E-V22 accounts for 27.2% and its highest frequency appears to be among Fulani, but it is also common in Nilo-Saharan speaking groups.
[...]
The Fulani, who possess the lowest population size in this study, have an interesting genetic structure, effectively consisting of two haplogroups or founding lineages. One of the lineages is R-M173 (53.8%), and its sheer frequency suggests either a recent migration of this group to Africa and/or a restricted gene flow due to linguistic or cultural barriers. The high frequency of sub-clade E-V22, which is believed to be northeast African (Cruciani et al., 2007) and haplogroup R-M173, suggests an amalgamation of two populations/cultures that took place sometime in the past in eastern or central Africa. This is also evident from the frequency of the ‘‘T’’ allele of the lactase persistence gene that is uniquely present in considerable frequencies among the Fulani (Mulcare et al., 2004). Interestingly, Fulani language is classified in the Niger-Congo family of languages, which is more prevalent in West Africa and among Bantu speakers, yet their Y-chromosomes show very little evidence of West African genetic affiliation.
It seems, however, that the effective size of the pastorlists and nomadic pastoralists is generally much smaller than groups of sedentary agriculturalists life style. This is intriguing in the sense that one would expect nomadic tribes to be more able to admix, spread, and receive genes than their sedentary counterparts.
--Hisham Y. Hassan, Peter A. Underhill, Luca L. Cavalli-Sforza, and Muntaser E. Ibrahim
Y-Chromosome Variation Among Sudanese: Restricted Gene Flow, Concordance With Language, Geography, and History
quote: The sandstone escarpment of the Dhar Tichitt in South-Central Mauritania was inhabited by Neolithic agropastoral communities for approximately one and half millennium during the Late Holocene, from ca. 4000 to 2300 BP. The absence of prior evidence of human settlement points to the influx of mobile herders moving away from the “drying” Sahara towards more humid lower latitudes. These herders took advantage of the peculiarities of the local geology and environment and succeeded in domesticating bulrush millet – Pennisetum sp. The emerging agropastoral subsistence complex had conflicting and/or complementary requirements depending on circumstances. In the long run, the social adjustment to the new subsistence complex, shifting site location strategies, nested settlement patterns and the rise of more encompassing polities appear to have been used to cope with climatic hazards in this relatively circumscribed area. An intense arid spell in the middle of the first millennium BC triggered the collapse of the whole Neolithic agropastoral system and the abandonment of the areas. These regions, resettled by sparse oasis-dwellers populations and iron-using communities start
quote: Evidence from throughout the Sahara indicates that the region experienced a cool, dry and windy climate during the last glacial period, followed by a wetter climate with the onset of the current interglacial, with humid conditions being fully established by around 10,000 years BP, when we see the first evidence of a reoccupation of parts of the central Sahara by hunter gathers, most likely originating from sub-Saharan Africa (Cremaschi and Di Lernia, 1998; Goudie, 1992; Phillipson, 1993; Ritchie, 1994; Roberts, 1998).
[...]
Conical tumuli, platform burials and a V-type monument represent structures similar to those found in other Saharan regions and associated with human burials, appearing in sixth millennium BP onwards in northeast Niger and southwest Libya (Sivilli, 2002). In the latter area a shift in emphasis from faunal to human burials, complete by the early fifth millennium BP, has been interpreted by Di Lernia and Manzi (2002) as being associated with a changes in social organisation that occurred at a time of increasing aridity. While further research is required in order to place the funerary monuments of Western Sahara in their chronological context, we can postulate a similar process as a hypothesis to be tested, based on the high density of burial sites recorded in the 2002 survey. Fig. 2: Megaliths associated with tumulus burial (to right of frame), north of Tifariti (Fig. 1). A monument consisting of sixty five stelae was also of great interest; precise alignments north and east, a division of the area covered into separate units, and a deliberate scattering of quartzite inside the structure, are suggestive of an astronomical function associated with funerary rituals. Stelae are also associated with a number of burial sites, again suggesting dual funerary and astronomical functions (Figure 2). Further similarities with other Saharan regions are evident in the rock art recorded in the study area, although local stylistic developments are also apparent. Carvings of wild fauna at the site of Sluguilla resemble the Tazina style found in Algeria, Libya and Morocco (Pichler and Rodrigue, 2003), although examples of elephant and rhinoceros in a naturalistic style reminiscent of engravings from the central Sahara believed to date from the early Holocene are also present.
--Nick Brooks et al. (2004)
The prehistory of Western Sahara in a regional context: the archaeology of the "free zone"
Posts: 22245 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Tooth size changes among Nubian archaeological populations dating from the Mesolithic through the Christian era, a period of approximately 12,000 years, are analyzed. Standard length and breadth dimensions of all permanent teeth from several cultural horizons are combined to form three large samples: Mesolithic, 10000-70000 B.C.; Agriculturalist, 3300-1100 B.C. (A-group, C-group, Pharaonic); and Intensive Agriculturalist, A.D. 0-1400 (Meroitic, X-Group, Christian). Such information not only fills a void in the knowledge of Nubian skeletal biology, but also provides a much needed African reference point for the comparison of tooth size data among anatomically modern Homo sapiens from various regions of the world. Changes in mean tooth size and associated t-tests reveal strong and significant reduction in dental size between the Mesolithic and Agriculturalist samples, followed by a continued although diminished trend of reduction for only the molar teeth between the two Agriculturalist groups. These patterns are best observed by examining tooth breadths, which are considered as the most reliable indicator of tooth size. Previously published odontometrics of the Nubian Mesolithic are briefly compared to the findings of this diachronic analysis of Nubian dental change.
--Calcagno JM
Am J Phys Anthropol. 1986 Jul;70(3):349-63. Dental reduction in post-pleistocene Nubia.
quote:Originally posted by Kabyle Berber: Sub-Saharan Africa is not synonymous with tropical Africa.
Though most of Sub-Sahara Africa is in the tropical zone.
quote:Originally posted by Kabyle Berber: The tropic of Capricorn passes through the following: Namibia, Botswana, South Africa, Mozambique & Madagascar. So parts of these countries (including most of South Africa) are not at tropical latitude.
Most of the countries you listed besides South Africa are majority in the tropical zone...
quote:Originally posted by Kabyle Berber: Ancient Lower Egyptian crural indices are not "tropical". For females, they appear closest to Southern Europeans in Raxter (2011), and for males, Khoisan. The latter are not tropically adapated.
Note the trickery at play by Zaharan - you refute his "Egyptians are tropical" and he shifts to Sub-Saharan Africa (to include the Khoisan from South Africa who are not tropically adapted).
You're point? Khoisan's are still indigenous Africans who if I remember correctly show affinity to "tropical adapted" people such as the Hadza.
lol! Which is not even a peer-reviewed/published paper, but just a thesis paper? And hardly any references are sited for her Lower Egyptians showing affinity towards Europeans argument.
Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014
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Re Khosians, the issue at hand is the links between indigenous "sub-Saharan" Africans and Egyptians. Khosians are sub-Saharan Africans- a fact some idiots can't grasp. The moronic "jake Speed" exposed in his lies, attempted to divert attention from that exposure, by talking about lack of match with "tropical" Africans, on female crurals.
^^Plenty of "tropical" for the Khoisan to work with in Botswana
But pathetically, he and assorted cronies fail for the Khoisan have been hanging out in the tropics for millennia. On the map he proffers part of Botswana is bisected by the tropical zone. The Khoisan home range includes not only South Africa, but also the Kahalari in Botswana, also in the "tropical zone." Indeed, the San are not static entities, huddling below the tropic line like some "white only" apartheid barrier that was once common in SOuth Africa. While they have been heavily based in the Medit type clime down south, THEY ALSO do move around and have been doing thus for millennia, in and out of whatever zone they want. Contrary to the bogus "HBD" claims of "Berber/Speed" African populations are not static, they, gasp, DO move around and live elsewhere and move again.
^^In fact, Khosian languages are found going on into Zambia and even Angola, with San "click" language speakers as far north as Tanzania. So Khosians have had plenty to do with the tropics, and based on their range and movements they are tropical Africans, who by the way are the most phenotypically diverse people on earth (Relethford 2000 2001 et al). No matter how the liars try to wriggle and duck away, they lose.
"Kabyle Berber" is the same lying "Jake Speed" posing under another account, hoping to salvage exposure of his deceit.
Once again for assorted "biodiversity" types debating Morpheus: they stand--
Posts: 5908 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Not a Kabyle Berber: Sub-Saharan Africa is not synonymous with tropical Africa.
Though most of Sub-Sahara Africa is in the tropical zone.
quote:Originally posted by Not a Kabyle Berber: The tropic of Capricorn passes through the following: Namibia, Botswana, South Africa, Mozambique & Madagascar. So parts of these countries (including most of South Africa) are not at tropical latitude.
Most of the countries you listed besides South Africa are majority in the tropical zone...
quote:Originally posted by Not a Kabyle Berber: Ancient Lower Egyptian crural indices are not "tropical". For females, they appear closest to Southern Europeans in Raxter (2011), and for males, Khoisan. The latter are not tropically adapated.
Note the trickery at play by Zaharan - you refute his "Egyptians are tropical" and he shifts to Sub-Saharan Africa (to include the Khoisan from South Africa who are not tropically adapted).
You're point? Khoisan's are still indigenous Africans who if I remember correctly show affinity to "tropical adapted" people such as the Hadza.
lol! Which is not even a peer-reviewed/published paper, but just a thesis paper? And hardly any references are sited for her Lower Egyptians showing affinity towards Europeans argument.
.
Crurals do not mark descent, and I, for one, include the SUB-TROPICS.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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Jake_Speed aka Krom aka Kabyle Berber has admitted to trolling this forum with multiple sockpuppets and impersonating members including me here. Now someone has signed up to RationalWiki in order to impersonate me again:
"This is Morpheus from Egyptsearch. While Carlos Coke is a particularly nasty black racist (note he owns multiple socks including not only claus3600, but also Bonampak420 where he calls white people as 'devils' and albino mutants etc.,) the whole forum isn't black supremacist like this. Although its probably true to say most posters are. However its unfair to think every single poster is bad, there are a small minority of sane non-racist posters.Morpheus (talk) 16:53, 14 October 2015 "
I did not write that. Jake_Speed, have you no shame? You are the prime suspect given your confession to doing this type of thing before. Why do you feel the need to impersonate me? What is your goal?
Posts: 647 | From: Atlanta | Registered: Jan 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Morpheus: Jake_Speed aka Krom aka Kabyle Berber has admitted to trolling this forum with multiple sockpuppets and impersonating members including me here. Now someone has signed up to RationalWiki in order to impersonate me again:
"This is Morpheus from Egyptsearch. While Carlos Coke is a particularly nasty black racist (note he owns multiple socks including not only claus3600, but also Bonampak420 where he calls white people as 'devils' and albino mutants etc.,) the whole forum isn't black supremacist like this. Although its probably true to say most posters are. However its unfair to think every single poster is bad, there are a small minority of sane non-racist posters.Morpheus (talk) 16:53, 14 October 2015 "
I did not write that. Jake_Speed, have you no shame? You are the prime suspect given your confession to doing this type of thing before. Why do you feel the need to impersonate me? What is your goal?
OK, that is just damn sick (not that the same couldn't be said of his other behavior, but still...). Given this behavior of his, I wonder if his mischief (including the troll articles he wrote) should be excised from RationalWiki altogether?
Posts: 7111 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
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OK, that is just damn sick (not that the same couldn't be said of his other behavior, but still...). Given this behavior of his, I wonder if his mischief (including the troll articles he wrote) should be excised from RationalWiki altogether?
I agree. I think we should contact the administrators of RationalWiki and try to get him banned. We have plenty of evidence from his confession here that he is impersonating people. If they have any integrity they will punish him.
Posts: 647 | From: Atlanta | Registered: Jan 2009
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OK, that is just damn sick (not that the same couldn't be said of his other behavior, but still...). Given this behavior of his, I wonder if his mischief (including the troll articles he wrote) should be excised from RationalWiki altogether?
I agree. I think we should contact the administrators of RationalWiki and try to get him banned. We have plenty of evidence from his confession here that he is impersonating people. If they have any integrity they will punish him.
And now I'm his next victim apparently:
I'm currently looking for a place to report Krom's ass.
Posts: 7111 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
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Ausar can you remove, reduce or just keep the text link of Truthcentric's image. It's too large for the screen.
Posts: 2981 | Registered: Jan 2012
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quote:Originally posted by Kabyle Berber: Sub-Saharan Africa is not synonymous with tropical Africa.
Though most of Sub-Sahara Africa is in the tropical zone.
This is a false debate. It doesn't matter much for us if modern Sub-Sahara Africa is in the tropical zone. The only thing that matter in this case is Ancient Egyptians have similar post-cranial measurements and limb proportions than modern Africans and African-Americans.
From "Population Affinities of the Jebel Sahaba Skeletal Sample: Limb Proportion" by Trenton Holliday(2013)
So Ancient Egyptians were not cold adapted but tropically adapted like modern Africans at the top portion of tree. Another indication of shared ancestry between modern Africans and Ancient Egyptians along with culture, genetics, languages, archaeological continuity, etc.
Posts: 2981 | Registered: Jan 2012
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From "Population Affinities of the Jebel Sahaba Skeletal Sample: Limb Proportion" by Trenton Holliday(2013)
A couple of new strange things I noticed about this chart
I have already mentioned that Afalou a late Paleolithic and Mesolithic culture in North Africa aka Ibero-Maurusian cluster near cold adapted artic people. That probably indicates a refugia popualtion who originated in Eurasia -although having migrated into Africa for a long 10,000 year stretch. Unlike the Ain Dokara a Capsian site also in North Africa who cluster with other Africans and were probably indigenous.
They don't show Southern Europeans so we don't see where they would be on the chart but the couple of things I'm noticing now is that with the cold extreme on the lower right with the artic peoples as you move to the left of that, French, Euroamerican But Norse seems less cold adapted than they are, they come in further left and then Germans even to the left of them. I would have expected Norse on the most cold adapted European postion just after artic people
The second thing is the Nubian position. It's less tropical than the Egyptian. How could that be they are more Southern? They are closer in position to Germans than they are to West Africans! You would think Nubians would be on the upper right of the chart. That's not to say they are more closely related to Germans, this is only limb ratios. It's surprsing how the Nubians aren't close to Kerma and East African positions
The San, another surprise, apparently a little more tropical than West Africans
Posts: 43005 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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I want to thank the RationalWiki editors for recognizing that this demented Drama Queen Krom is a lunatic who does not deserve to be editing on their webpage.
For the record Krom as I told you on VNN I have never registered on a website so that I can spam porn. I've been banned for spamming interracial porn on racist websites as retaliation for their racist taunts and posting of racist imagery.
You are a liar, an impersonator and a sick demented freak who trolls message boards including this one with multiple sockpuppets, pretending to be other people which suggests that you suffer from multiple personality disorder.
Only someone with a mental illness would spend all of their time doing this type of ****. You are as crazy as Mikemikev. Maybe we need to make an Encyclopedia Dramatica page about you and your antics to inform the rest of the internet about your lunacy.
Posts: 647 | From: Atlanta | Registered: Jan 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Morpheus: You are as crazy as Mikemikev. Maybe we need to make an Encyclopedia Dramatica page about you and your antics to inform the rest of the internet about your lunacy.
Given their shared behavioral tendencies and obsessions, and the fact that they're both apparently from the UK, I'm not 100% sure they're even different people.
Posts: 7111 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Given their shared behavioral tendencies and obsessions, and the fact that they're both apparently from the UK, I'm not 100% sure they're even different people.
I wouldn't put it past him but these two have aggressively pursued each other throughout the internet. You'd have to be another level of crazy to create your own enemy to fight with.
I think they are two crazy Brits with too much time on their hands. Jake_Speed's IP address traces to England while all of Mikemikev's sockpupppets trace to South Korea. Given their different locations and agendas I think it is safe to say that they are two different trolls.
I don't even know if Mikemikev is aware of what is going on here. I doubt he pays much attention to Egyptsearch these days. Jake_Speed on the other hand was battling us on VNN and has trolled the hell out of Egyptsearch by his own admission for years. He's definitely the one trolling us on RationalWiki and I think he's doing it by himself.
Posts: 647 | From: Atlanta | Registered: Jan 2009
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AngloPyramidologist/DanSkeptic/Cassiterides/JakeSpeed/BenSteigmann/JonDonnis/Krom exposed!!! https://encyclopediadramatica.se/Encyclopedia_Dramatica_talk:Thizzlehat_Junction_Center#KROM.2FATLANTID.2FDAN_SKEPTIC.2FGOBLIN_FACE_-_ALL_THE_SAME_PERSON_YO_FOOLS.21 Dan Skeptic on Rome Viharo's website is none other than Atlantid/Krom[scape], listed as a sockpuppet under Anglo_Pyramidologist at Wikipedia. He's the one playing the games here and taking the piss out of you lot, he also was the one who created Rome Viharo's entry here, posing as RedpenofDoom, or whoeva. Viharo and Krom don't like each other, and Viharo dug up Krom's connection to Dan Skeptic. View here:-
Viharo was working on an article to write on Dan Skeptic/Atlantid/Krom, and so its obvious Krom came here to get his revenge back. This same weird individual is behind most or all of the impersonator socks of people from Skeptico, as well as skeptics as well as creating pages attacking such people at Rationalwiki. Again its easy to connect Rome Viharos page entry at Rationalwiki also to Dan Skeptic. He was also posting as DinoCrisis at RW in 2012-2013, and has hundreds more sockpuppets there. Krom was also given sysop status at Rationalwiki earlier this year. The guy making stuff up is "Stevenson" on the forum.mind-energy.net [91], he previously trolled that forum with over 2,000 posts under the username OC68, he is a left-wing liberal conspiracy nut who also has a police record of internet stalking activities and harressment. He has been banned twice for stalking people and pasting libel in which caused him a temporary ban and got most of his posts deleted. If you check his posts on Stevenson he only joined the forum to stalk people and post nonsense about Wikipedia. Oddly his account is deleted and all of his posts are gone on OC68, but if you do a Google search you can still see his comments quoted from other people. He's a well known woo-believer who claims crop circles and cattle mutilations are evidence for alien activity in his posts. He has an obsession with stalking Wikipedia editors and making up lies and posting libel; for example he claims various skeptical editors on Wikipedia are secret proponents of pseudoscientific views such as ancient astronauts or philosophical idealism. Most likely the same guy behind these joke pages of Joshua Schroeder [92] and this. You can see Stevenson post libel here about Wikipedia accounts [93]. All of his information is deliberate lies. Best to ignore the troll
Further information about the internet predator and troll MU needed
As you know a user who was banned on the skeptiko forum and countless of other forums known as "MU" has been creating fake accounts of people for many years, and he has also made fake accounts of myself. He has a history of posting sexually abuse comments to people under peoples username in an attempt to blacklist their name. Considering that he is still make fake accounts of people and pretending to be people, I am trying to discover this guys identity to pass his details onto someone who might be able to look into this, indeed one day he will get in trouble for what he has been doing on the internet. Any help please needed.
MU is not Stevenson, Viharo, Red Pen of Doom, Craig Weiler, Andrew B. Chung, Manul or Donnis or any of the other huge list of names floating around the web it is apparently Paul C. Anagnostopoulos who created Rome's rationalwiki article and has countless socks such as Tyler Snotgern, Eveshi, Waller Joel etc according to various websites. Run an internet search of those sockpuppet names etc for some weird information.
According to this forum:
"Mal Yankton is a sockpuppet account employed by someone connected with Rome Vihiro to stir up trouble between believers and skeptics over the Rupert Sheldrake issue. He's posted problems on Weiler's psi blog in the past and has an obsession with stalking JREF members. He posts as Tyler Snotgern on the skeptiko forum and he previously abused people on the username MU. He has a long history of impersonating people. He's targeted Jon Donnis (founder of the bad psychics forum) and other people on different websites. It's best to ignore the issue."
"I'll let you in on a little secret here. Mal Yankton and Paul C. Anagnostopoulos IP's are both from the same location. I know this because (and I can't say who) emailed me both of their IP's because they were posting on one forum)."
(check the archives on the Viharo article for this comment).
Case closed.
Lukas1986.
is Mikemikev, he's spent his life online impersonating other people such as Andrew B. Chung, Jon Donnis, Charlie Bass, and other people he finds on internet forums. Paul C. Anagnostopoulos is just someone he has impersonated. And yea, he's been setting up these 'hit pages' at Rationalwiki in the process. permalink
[–][deleted] 1 point 5 months ago
The Tyler Snotgern account is for real, he is not a poe, I have encountered this person under many of his personalities in the past. He was banned on the Skeptiko forum for posting that he has had sex with astral spirits. He has been trolling forums since 2002. He's deep into what he writes, he is not a parody. It is a sign of someone with mental illness not a poe. He old username was "MU".
MU!! has been trolling numerous websites and newgroups, Usenet in particular, for over a decade. Do a Google search on names like "Ari Silverstein", "Frank Camper", or "wilburn" (preferably in combination with "Usenet", e. g. ["Ari Silverstein" Usenet], ["Frank Camper" Usenet], [wilburn Usenet]) to see the full dimension of his trolling.
From "Population Affinities of the Jebel Sahaba Skeletal Sample: Limb Proportion" by Trenton Holliday(2013)
A couple of new strange things I noticed about this chart
I have already mentioned that Afalou a late Paleolithic and Mesolithic culture in North Africa aka Ibero-Maurusian cluster near cold adapted artic people. That probably indicates a refugia popualtion who originated in Eurasia -although having migrated into Africa for a long 10,000 year stretch. Unlike the Ain Dokara a Capsian site also in North Africa who cluster with other Africans and were probably indigenous.
They don't show Southern Europeans so we don't see where they would be on the chart but the couple of things I'm noticing now is that with the cold extreme on the lower right with the artic peoples as you move to the left of that, French, Euroamerican But Norse seems less cold adapted than they are, they come in further left and then Germans even to the left of them. I would have expected Norse on the most cold adapted European postion just after artic people
The second thing is the Nubian position. It's less tropical than the Egyptian. How could that be they are more Southern? They are closer in position to Germans than they are to West Africans! You would think Nubians would be on the upper right of the chart. That's not to say they are more closely related to Germans, this is only limb ratios. It's surprsing how the Nubians aren't close to Kerma and East African positions
The San, another surprise, apparently a little more tropical than West Africans
Personally, I don't use the data that way. The cause(s) of the post-cranial phenotypes (supposedly the environment in this case) has little importance.
For me, post cranial measurements are simply inherited phenotypes which allow us to differentiate people on a continent level. Which happens to be perfect for our purpose. We just wanted to know if Ancient Egyptians were continental Africans or settlers from Europe or West Asia. Combined with other knowledge about genetics, culture, language, archaeology it makes it clear Ancient Egyptians were indigenous black Africans related to most modern African populations.
Posts: 2981 | Registered: Jan 2012
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quote:Originally posted by Kabyle Berber: Sub-Saharan Africa is not synonymous with tropical Africa.
Though most of Sub-Sahara Africa is in the tropical zone.
This is a false debate. It doesn't matter much for us if modern Sub-Sahara Africa is in the tropical zone. The only thing that matter in this case is Ancient Egyptians have similar post-cranial measurements and limb proportions than modern Africans and African-Americans.
From "Population Affinities of the Jebel Sahaba Skeletal Sample: Limb Proportion" by Trenton Holliday(2013)
So Ancient Egyptians were not cold adapted but tropically adapted like modern Africans at the top portion of tree. Another indication of shared ancestry between modern Africans and Ancient Egyptians along with culture, genetics, languages, archaeological continuity, etc.
No offense but what the heck was the point of this post, especially to me?
I obviously know the Ancient Egyptians(especially the ones in Upper Egypt) shared similar limb proportions with modern Africans and that they showed genetic affinity towards modern Africans like Northeast Africans. I mean I already seen that Holiday chart a million times. The point I was arguing is that the majority of Sub Sahara Africa is in the tropical zone and southern Africa is just the sub tropics.
Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014
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posted
^^No offense but I didn't send you a PM. This post was for everybody on this forum. So basically, I wouldn't care what you pretend to know or not know.
What you "obviously know" is wrong. It's not especially upper Ancient Egypt and no genetic studies has ever proven Ancient Egyptian to be close to modern North-Eastern Africans. Maybe they are (most modern Africans are closely related to each others anyway, see the African Genome Variation project for example). It kind of make sense for Ancient Egyptians to be closely related to the people of the regions, some kind of regional population continuity, but no genetic study has ever proven this. The current limited genetic results show us a closer genetic affiliations with modern Africans outside modern Northeastern Africa like the Great Lakes region, Southern and Western Africa. For example, Ramses III was determined to be E1b1a which is rare in North Eastern Africa but prevalent in other regions of Africa and among African-Americans. Although E1b1a and E1b1b(common in North-Eastern Africa) are related through E1b1. Also according to DNA Tribes (and online bloggers) the autosomal profiles of 9 Ancient Egyptians mummies are more prevalent in those regions of Africa too. 5000 years is a long time ago and many population changes and movements occurred since then.
Even in this study, we can see Ancient Egyptians clustering with modern African-Americans more than any other populations. Although the nature of the graph imo only allow inter-continental analysis, same for the current genetic results for that matter. But if we consider the current genetic and post-cranial results we have it favors Africans related to modern African-Americans.
If Ancient Egyptians would be more related to Eastern Africans it would be ancient Eastern Africans BEFORE their recent admixtures with Eurasians. Their recent admixtures with Eurasians "diluting" their affiliations with Ancient Egyptians. Because all the current scientific results show us an affiliations with modern Africans not Europeans, West Asians or people admixed with them. Ancient Egyptians probably had some Eurasian admixtures but only at a low level (always based on current scientific knowledge).
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posted
The point I was arguing is that the majority of Sub Sahara Africa is in the tropical zone and southern Africa is just the sub tropics.
Keep in mind that Sub-Saharan Africans, whether they be in the tropic zone or not, are not static entities, but move around at will. Khoisan speaking peoples are represented in the tropic zone- from Botswana to Angola, and even on into Tanzania, per some scholars re the click languages. Likewise Upper Egyptians in the tropical part of Egypt did not stay there but moved around at will and eventually came to dominate the whole country all the way to the Mediterranean. Africans are not bound by any climatic or geographical apartheid zones. They move around. And they can be heavily adapted, or more moderately tropically adapted- all that is within the range of indigenous sub_saharan African diversity.
Posts: 5908 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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From "Population Affinities of the Jebel Sahaba Skeletal Sample: Limb Proportion" by Trenton Holliday(2013)
A couple of new strange things I noticed about this chart
I have already mentioned that Afalou a late Paleolithic and Mesolithic culture in North Africa aka Ibero-Maurusian cluster near cold adapted artic people. That probably indicates a refugia popualtion who originated in Eurasia -although having migrated into Africa for a long 10,000 year stretch. Unlike the Ain Dokara a Capsian site also in North Africa who cluster with other Africans and were probably indigenous.
They don't show Southern Europeans so we don't see where they would be on the chart but the couple of things I'm noticing now is that with the cold extreme on the lower right with the artic peoples as you move to the left of that, French, Euroamerican But Norse seems less cold adapted than they are, they come in further left and then Germans even to the left of them. I would have expected Norse on the most cold adapted European postion just after artic people
The second thing is the Nubian position. It's less tropical than the Egyptian. How could that be they are more Southern? They are closer in position to Germans than they are to West Africans! You would think Nubians would be on the upper right of the chart. That's not to say they are more closely related to Germans, this is only limb ratios. It's surprsing how the Nubians aren't close to Kerma and East African positions
The San, another surprise, apparently a little more tropical than West Africans
You are a comical individual, who has difficulty with topology.
quote: The great similarities between Taforalt and Hassi-el-Abiod men (malian Sahara)
In: Bulletins et Mémoires de la Société d'anthropologie de Paris, XIV° Série, tome 5 fascicule 4, 1988. pp. 247-256.
TAFORALT MAN IN SAHARA : SAHARAN EXTENSION OF MAGHREBIAN
quote: we suggest that there may have been a relationship, albeit a complex one, between climatic events and cave activity on the part of Iberomaurusian populations.
--A. Bouzouggar, et al.
Reevaluating the Age of the Iberomaurusian in Morocco
quote: Large-scale climate change forms the backdrop to the beginnings of food production in northeastern Africa (Kröpelin et al. 2008).[ Hunter-gatherer communities deserted most of the northern interior of the continent during the arid glacial maximum and took refuge along the North African coast, the Nile Valley, and the southern fringes of the Sahara (Barich and Garcea 2008; Garcea 2006; Kuper and Kröpelin 2006). During the subsequent Early Holocene African humid phase, from the mid-eleventh to the early ninth millennium cal BP, ceramic-using hunter-gatherers took advantage of more favorable savanna conditions to resettle much of northeastern Africa (Holl 2005; Kuper and Kröpelin 2006). Evidence of domestic animals first appeared in sites in the Western Desert of Egypt, the Khartoum region of the Nile, northern Niger, the Acacus Mountains of Libya, and Wadi Howar (Garcea 2004, 2006; Pöllath and Peters 2007; fig. 1).
--Fiona Marshall
Domestication Processes and Morphological Change Through the Lens of the Donkey and African Pastoralism Fiona Marshall and Lior Weissbrod
quote:Evidence from throughout the Sahara indicates that the region experienced a cool, dry and windy climate during the last glacial period, followed by a wetter climate with the onset of the current interglacial, with humid conditions being fully established by around 10,000 years BP, when we see the first evidence of a reoccupation of parts of the central Sahara by hunter gathers, most likely originating from sub-Saharan Africa (Cremaschi and Di Lernia, 1998; Goudie, 1992; Phillipson, 1993; Ritchie, 1994; Roberts, 1998).
[...]
Conical tumuli, platform burials and a V-type monument represent structures similar to those found in other Saharan regions and associated with human burials, appearing in sixth millennium BP onwards in northeast Niger and southwest Libya (Sivilli, 2002). In the latter area a shift in emphasis from faunal to human burials, complete by the early fifth millennium BP, has been interpreted by Di Lernia and Manzi (2002) as being associated with a changes in social organisation that occurred at a time of increasing aridity. While further research is required in order to place the funerary monuments of Western Sahara in their chronological context, we can postulate a similar process as a hypothesis to be tested, based on the high density of burial sites recorded in the 2002 survey. Fig. 2: Megaliths associated with tumulus burial (to right of frame), north of Tifariti (Fig. 1). A monument consisting of sixty five stelae was also of great interest; precise alignments north and east, a division of the area covered into separate units, and a deliberate scattering of quartzite inside the structure, are suggestive of an astronomical function associated with funerary rituals. Stelae are also associated with a number of burial sites, again suggesting dual funerary and astronomical functions (Figure 2). Further similarities with other Saharan regions are evident in the rock art recorded in the study area, although local stylistic developments are also apparent. Carvings of wild fauna at the site of Sluguilla resemble the Tazina style found in Algeria, Libya and Morocco (Pichler and Rodrigue, 2003), although examples of elephant and rhinoceros in a naturalistic style reminiscent of engravings from the central Sahara believed to date from the early Holocene are also present.
--Nick Brooks et al.
The prehistory of Western Sahara in a regional context: the archaeology of the "free zone"
Tyndall Centre for Climate Change Research, Saharan Studies Programme and School of Environmental Sciences, University of East Anglia, Norwich, UK Coauthors: Di Lernia, Savino ((Department of Scienze Storiche, Archeologiche, e Antropologiche dell’Antichità, Faculty of Human Sciences, University of Rome “La Sapienza”, Via Palestro 63, 00185 – Rome, Italy) and Drake, Nick (Department of Geography, King’s College, Strand, London WC2R 2LS).
quote:
Our results demonstrate an ancient local evolution in Tunisia of some African haplogroups (L2a, L3*, and L3b).
[...]
Since the end of the extreme Saharan desiccation, lasting from before 25,000 years ago up to about 15,000 years ago, the Sahara has had post- and pre- Holocene cyclical climatic changes (Street and Grove 1976), and corresponding increases and decreases in population are probable. Wetter phases with better habitats perhaps allowed for increased colonization and gene and cultural exchange. Desiccation would have encouraged the emigration and segmentation of populations, with resultant genetic consequences secondary to drift producing more variation. During the last glacial period, the Sahara was even bigger than it is today, extending south beyond its current boundaries (Ehret 2002). About 13,000 years ago, large parts of the Sahara were as dry as the desert is now (White and Mattingly 2006). The end of the glacial period brought more rain to the Sahara, especially from about 8500 to 6000 BC (Fezzan Project 2006). By around 3400 BC, the monsoon retreated south to approximately where it is today, leading to the gradual desertification of the region (Kröpelin 2008). Thus the Sahara, through its cyclical environmental changes, might be seen as a microevolutionary “processor” and/or “pump” of African people that “ejected” groups to the circum-Saharan regions in times of increasing aridity.
--Frigi et al., 2010
Ancient Local Evolution of African mtDNA Haplogroups in Tunisian Berber Populations [/QB][/QUOTE]
Posts: 22245 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
Good roundup all Patrol- keep posting without apology. A recent dental study indicates continuity in the Nubian region.
" Abstract "The origins of one of the most powerful sociopolitical entities of the Nile Valley, the Napatan State (850–650 BCE), are debated. Some scholars have suggested local development of this influential Nubian State, while others propose foreign involvement. This study uses a bioarchaeological approach to examine the biological affinity of these Ancient Nubians. The focal site of this research, Tombos, is one of few non-central Napatan Period sites that have been excavated and can, therefore, shed light on the broader Napatan populace. Dental non-metric trait frequencies were examined in the Tombos sample as well as in 12 comparative samples to elucidate the biological affinities of these populations.
Analyses indicate that Tombos dental non-metric trait frequencies were not significantly different from the majority of Egyptian and Nubian samples examined here. Therefore, we propose that gene flow, encouraged by long-term coexistence and intermarriage in Nubia, created an Egyptian/Nubian transcultural environment. These findings suggest the Napatan population at Tombos included descendants of Egyptians and Nubians. The Napatan Tombos sample was found to significantly differ from the latter Kushite and Meroitic samples; however, these samples are so temporally removed from the Napatan Period, we suspect subsequent episodes of population movement may have contributed to this variation."
"Introduction
Beginning in the 9th century BCE, a strong and unified sociopolitical front, known as the Napatan State, emerged in ancient Nubia. Centered at the capital city of Napata (Fourth Cataract), the Napatan State quickly became expansive and conquered Egypt (c. 760 BCE). Napatan rulers initiated the 25th Dynasty of Pharaohs and legitimized their foreign rule by portraying themselves as the ‘saviors’ of Egyptian culture ( Morkot, 2000). These pharaohs are known for complexly interweaving both Egyptian and Nubian cultural characteristics into their burials, architecture, art, and dress/jewelry ( Patterson, 2004 and Smith, 1998). At this time, the Napatan State was the largest polity to have existed in the Nile Valley, extending from the Mediterranean to what is today Central Sudan; it would continue to hold this designation until the Medieval Period (c. 500; O’Connor, 1993)..."
--Schradera et al. 2014. Illuminating the Nubian ‘Dark Age’- A bioarchaeological analysis of dental non-metric traits during the Napatan Period. HOMO - Journal of Comparative Human Biology. Volume 65, Issue 4, Pages 267–280
Posts: 5908 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: Good roundup all Patrol- keep posting without apology. A recent dental study indicates continuity in the Nubian region.
" Abstract "The origins of one of the most powerful sociopolitical entities of the Nile Valley, the Napatan State (850–650 BCE), are debated. Some scholars have suggested local development of this influential Nubian State, while others propose foreign involvement. This study uses a bioarchaeological approach to examine the biological affinity of these Ancient Nubians. The focal site of this research, Tombos, is one of few non-central Napatan Period sites that have been excavated and can, therefore, shed light on the broader Napatan populace. Dental non-metric trait frequencies were examined in the Tombos sample as well as in 12 comparative samples to elucidate the biological affinities of these populations.
Analyses indicate that Tombos dental non-metric trait frequencies were not significantly different from the majority of Egyptian and Nubian samples examined here. Therefore, we propose that gene flow, encouraged by long-term coexistence and intermarriage in Nubia, created an Egyptian/Nubian transcultural environment. These findings suggest the Napatan population at Tombos included descendants of Egyptians and Nubians. The Napatan Tombos sample was found to significantly differ from the latter Kushite and Meroitic samples; however, these samples are so temporally removed from the Napatan Period, we suspect subsequent episodes of population movement may have contributed to this variation."
"Introduction
Beginning in the 9th century BCE, a strong and unified sociopolitical front, known as the Napatan State, emerged in ancient Nubia. Centered at the capital city of Napata (Fourth Cataract), the Napatan State quickly became expansive and conquered Egypt (c. 760 BCE). Napatan rulers initiated the 25th Dynasty of Pharaohs and legitimized their foreign rule by portraying themselves as the ‘saviors’ of Egyptian culture ( Morkot, 2000). These pharaohs are known for complexly interweaving both Egyptian and Nubian cultural characteristics into their burials, architecture, art, and dress/jewelry ( Patterson, 2004 and Smith, 1998). At this time, the Napatan State was the largest polity to have existed in the Nile Valley, extending from the Mediterranean to what is today Central Sudan; it would continue to hold this designation until the Medieval Period (c. 500; O’Connor, 1993)..."
--Schradera et al. 2014. Illuminating the Nubian ‘Dark Age’- A bioarchaeological analysis of dental non-metric traits during the Napatan Period. HOMO - Journal of Comparative Human Biology. Volume 65, Issue 4, Pages 267–280
Nice reader:
These findings suggest the Napatan population at Tombos included descendants of Egyptians and Nubians.Posts: 22245 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [qb]
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor: You are a comical individual, who has difficulty with topology.
you are an asshole
It's not my fault you're topology is terrible. That's doesn't make me an asshole,
You are an asshole regardless of my topology
Anatomically that is imposible. So I'll consider it a typo.
But I do have an asshole like anyone else, I agree on that one. Regardless of your topology.
Posts: 22245 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: [QB] But the bottom portion doesn't' make any difference. As already noted above, it doesn't significantly affect the overall bottom line. Wheter it is included or not, makes no diff overall.
The raw data says the Lower ancient Egyptian limb ratios were closer to Khoisans and Southern Europeans than they were to other Africans
Only it doesn't and no amount of your obfuscation will change that. Overall results stand, and Khosians, dummy, ARE sub-Saharan Africans.
The upper portion of the Raxter statement only applies to the Upper Egyptians
As we can see zarahan is incorrect in his math
All we need to do is compare one male figure to another male figure and note the numerical difference So after you do this only the Khoisans and Upper Egyptians are closer to Lower Egyptians than Southern Europeans The rest of the Africans have a bigger difference than do Southern Europeans compared to Lower Egyptians.
As for females Southern European females are closer Lower Egyptian females than any African, only 0.3 difference
This is why you are never going to see Table 28 in a zarahan graphic
Do the math. it's simple subtraction, return to base
quote:Stature and the pattern of body proportions were investigated in a series of six time-successive Egyptian populations in order to investigate the biological effects on human growth of the development and intensification of agriculture, and the formation of state-level social organization. Univariate analyses of variance were performed to assess differences between the sexes and among various time periods. Significant differences were found both in stature and in raw long bone length measurements between the early semipastoral population and the later intensive agricultural population. The size differences were greater in males than in females. This disparity is suggested to be due to greater male response to poor nutrition in the earlier populations, and with the increasing development of social hierarchy, males were being provisioned preferentially over females. Little change in body shape was found through time, suggesting that all body segments were varying in size in response to environmental and social conditions. The change found in body plan is suggested to be the result of the later groups having a more tropical (Nilotic) form than the preceding populations.
quote:“Pleistocene through to the Christian periods, reveals a break in population continuity between the Pleistocene (Jebel Sahaba) and the Final Neolithic (Gebel Ramlah, dating to the first half of the fifth millennium BC) samples. The dental traits from Jebel Sahaba align more closely with modern sub-Saharan populations, while Gebel Ramlah and later align closer to Egypt specifically and to the Sahara in general.”
--Michael Brass
Reconsidering the emergence of social complexity in early Saharan pastoral societies, 5000 – 2500 B.C.
quote: Cranial and dental evidence then tends to support a scenario of biological continuity in Egypt.
[...]
The main skeletal sample consisted of 492 males and 528 females, all adults from the Predynastic and Dynastic Periods, a time spanning c. 5500 BCE-600 CE.
Egyptian body dimensions were compared to Nubian groups, as well as to modern Egyptians and other higher and lower latitude populations.
The present study found a downward trend in ancient Egyptian stature for both sexes through time, as well as decreased sexual dimorphism in stature. The decreases may be associated with dietary and social stress with the intensification of agriculture and increased societal complexity.
Modern Egyptians in the study’s sample are generally taller and heavier than their predecessors; however, modern Egyptians exhibit relatively lower sexual dimorphism in stature.
Ancient Egyptians have more tropically adapted limbs in comparison to body breadths, which tend to be intermediate when plotted against higher and lower latitude populations.
These results may reflect the greater plasticity of limb lengths compared to body breadth.
The results might also suggest early Mediterranean and/or Near Eastern influence in Northeast Africa.
-- Michelle H. Raxter (2006, 2011)
Egyptian Body Size: A Regional and Worldwide Comparison
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: Quote: Modern archaeological, climatic, and genetic analysis shows a complex history for the peopling of ancient Egypt. Archaeological evidence suggests that during the Last Glacial Maximum (22,000-10,500 YBP) the Saharan desert was void of any settlements outside of the Nile Valley. The evidence suggests that most humans living there were concentrated along what is now the Egypt-Sudan border (Nubia). With a climatic shift (the arrival of monsoon rains) around 10,500 YEP, the hyper-arid desert was replaced by savannah-type habitats that were swiftly settled by prehistoric farmers. Afrer 9,000 YBP, human settlement was well established all over the eastern Sahara. By 7,300 YBP, retreating monsoonal rains and the onset of desertification led to the migrations of humans out of the eastern Sahara --south into what is modern Sudan, as well as into the Nile Valley.
This is great. This is what I tried to tell Zarahan and Djehuti in this thread and Beyoko/Swenet/Truthcentric (our favorite white forumites) at other times, but they wouldn't listen.
Based on archaeology, the people who were in the western desert in pre-dynastic time were the same people who were living in the Sudan-Egypt border before. So we're talking, in pre-dynastic time, of back and forth movement of the ancestors of Ancient Egyptians between the Nile and the Western Desert. The Eastern Sahara and Western Egyptian desert is where we can find the cultural, archaeological and biological, origin of Ancient Egyptians!!
Actually NOBODY denied there was continuity between the people of the LGM Nile Valley and dynastic Nile Valley, but I would add it wasn't just these people since during the Holocene wet phase when North Africa became fertile again there were other African populations who grew and expanded hence why there are cultural connections with West Africa as well. Really I don't know what your complaint is. If Graves denies that these peoples were black, then that is his problem.
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