quote:The ancient Mycenaeans and Minoans were most closely related to each other, and they both got three-quarters of their DNA from early farmers who lived in Greece and southwestern Anatolia, which is now part of Turkey, the team reports today in Nature. Both cultures additionally inherited DNA from people from the eastern Caucasus, near modern-day Iran, suggesting an early migration of people from the east after the early farmers settled there but before Mycenaeans split from Minoans.
The Mycenaeans did have an important difference: They had some DNA—4% to 16%—from northern ancestors who came from Eastern Europe or Siberia. This suggests that a second wave of people from the Eurasian steppe came to mainland Greece by way of Eastern Europe or Armenia, but didn’t reach Crete, says Iosif Lazaridis, a population geneticist at Harvard University who co-led the study.
posted
^ My thoughts: The above findings confirm the suprastraum theory of Indo-European migrations into Greece-- that is the actual IE speaking Proto-Greeks were themselves a small group who entered the region and spread their language and some of their culture among the predominant natives. This seems to be the prevailing theory of the spread of IE in other regions including India. By the way, the same theory may also apply to the Pre-Proto-Semitic speakers who entered the Levant from Africa.
Many people tend to identify the Mycenaeans with the early Hellenes (Greeks); however, 'Mycenaean' is a label applied to an archaeological group that was Bronze Age mainland Greece. While there is no doubt that early Hellenes were among the Mycenaean peoples, to identify the Mycenaeans as a whole as Greek is erroneous. Even the Hellenes in their ancient histories say that before the sons/tribes of Hellen spread forth there were 'Autochthones' (Aboriginal) peoples who ruled the peninsula and islands. The chief group who lived in the peninsula were a people called the Pelasgoi/Pelasgians whom the Greeks learned the art of building temples and other monuments and learned the rituals of worship. But there were other peoples mentioned like the Lapiths, Myrmidons, Minyans, Hyantes, Curetes, etc. etc.
Even the few surviving texts from the Mycenaean period written in Linear B script while in an early from of Greek show many nouns and names of places and deities having non-Greek/non-IE origin.
By the way, there were three main cultures in the Bronze Age Aegean-- the Mycenaean of mainland Greece, the Minoan of Crete, and the Cycladic of the Cycladic Islands. Are there any references to the latter??
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I would like to read this paper when it is free. To understand the relationship between the Anatolians and Minoans you have to understand the history of Anatolia and Lower Egypt. Lower Egypt up to Anatolia was inhabited by the Kushites. Anatolia, was represented by the Kassites, the Hattic, Hurrian and Kaska people. These populations belonged the C-Group (or Kushite) people who left Nubia in search of metals after 3500 BC.
The Mycenaeans and Cretans came from Lower Egypt and the Fezzan.
The Pelasgians founded many cities. The Pelasgian founding of Athens is noted by Plutarch in Theseus 12, and Ovid in Metamorphosis vii, 402 ff. According to Herodotus vii.91, the Pelasgians also founded Thebes. Many of these Athenians may have introduced the Geometric style to Greece during the so-called Dark Ages (1200- 600 BC).
Winters (1983b) makes it clear that the Garamantes founded the Greek cities of Thrace, Minoan Crete and Attica. The Garamantes were also called Carians by the Indo-European Greeks.
The Garamantes or Carians originally lived in the Fezzan. These Garamante were described by the Latin classical writers as black or dark skinned: perusti (Lucan 4.679), furvi (Arnoloius, Adversus Nationes , 6.5) and nigri (Anthologia Latina, 155,no.183).
Some of the first African colonists to arrive in Greece came from Crete. These Cretans were called Garamantes. After the goddess Ker or Car, these people also came to be also known as the Carians. The Carians spoke a Mande languages.
A Cretan boat from Thera These people usually sailed to the Islands in Aegean and the surrounding coast were they established prosperous trading communities.
There is frequent mention of the Garamantes of the Fezzan, in Classical literature of Greece and Rome. The Garamantes were recognized as a Black tribe. They were known to the Greeks and Romans as dark skinned. In Ptolemy (I.8.5.,p.31) a Garamante slave was described as having a body the color of pitch or wholly black.
Graves (1980) and Leo Frobenius linked the Garamante to the ancient empire of Ghana (c.300 BC to A.D. 1100). Graves (1980) claims that the term Garamante is the Greek plural for Garama or Garamas. He said that the present Jarama or Jarma are the descendants of the Garamante; and that the Jarama live near the Niger river.
The Olympian creation myth, as recorded by Pindar in Fragment , and Apollonius Rhodius, makes it clear that the Garamantes early colonized Greece. Their descendants were called Carians. The Carians practiced apiculture. As in Africa the Carians practiced matrilineal descent. According to Herodotus , even up until his time the Carians took the name of their mother.
As a result, when we find mtDNA U,T,N1 and K among the Anatolians, it was just a reflection of the Blacks/Kushites that dominated Anatolia
Consequently, when we find that the Minoans carried haplogroups H (43.2%), T (18.9%), K (16.2%) and I (8.1%). Haplogroups U5a, W, J2, U, X and J were each identified in a single individual. The results correspond to the Anatolian mtDNA.
The Y-chromosomes of Cretans also indicate the Cretans were Blacks Laisel Martinez et al , Paleolithic Y-haplogroup heritage predominates in a Cretan highland plateau, Eur J Hum Genet. 2007 http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v15/n4/full/5201769a.html provides a detailed discussion of the y-chromosomes in Crete. The presence of y-chromosomes R1b, T, K and H in Crete indicate that the Cretans were Black.
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. Martinez et al (2007), observed that In the case of the R1 haplogroup, while frequencies of 19.2% and 21.7% are found in the Heraklion Prefecture and Lasithi Prefecture populations, respectively, more than half (56.1%) of the Lasithi Plateau individuals are R1-M306-derived.
The results are not too suprising now that we have the Abusir mummies DNA.
Because few people who do genetics research study history and anthropology, they fail to realize that the skeletons dating between 950-750 BC, would represent Egyptians not Asians. This is supported by the fact that Abusir has been recognized as an early center of Egyptian civilization, and the Hyksos was a Kushite dynasty: See http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=18;t=000042
As a result, the Abusir mummies dating between 750-950 BC indicate that the so-called Eurasian haplogroups are in reality African haplogroup.
First of all, Afro-American scholars have accepted that the Egyptians were Black/African people for the past 200 years, i.e., Carter G. Woodson, W.E.B. DuBois, and J.A. Rogers, and the Senegalese scholar Anta Diop ; but, Negro Apologist : Gates, Kittles and etc, spend their time parroting the status quo line that the Egyptians were a mixed race. This same group attempt to make it appear that the Fulani, Somalis and Ethiopians are black skinned whites, because of their facial features. This is stupid, because man originated in Africa, so the physical features of these populations are African features.
The article by Schuenemann et al, 2017 on the Abusir mummies is basically a discussion of the data that support a Greco-Roman origin for Egypt. But the data on the mummies dating between 992-749 BC, can offers us keen insight into haplogroups carried by Egyptians during this time.
The genomic data from this period is important because the people of Abusir at this time would have been primarily Egyptian. As a result, the mtDNA carried by the Egyptians confirms the reality that the so-called Eurasian haplogroups are nothing more than African haplogroups.
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In Schuenemann et al, 2017, there were 100 mummies in the study. A total of 27 mummies were dated between 992-749BC. In Figure 1, you can see the clades carried by these Egyptians. Below are the frequencies of the haplogroups among Egyptians at this time:
Haplogroup Frequency U 18.5 T 22.2 J 18.5 X 0.0675 M1a 0.0675 H 0.0675 I 0.0675 HV 0.037 RO 0.037 K 0.037 N 0.037
The presence of these haplogroups among the Abusir population shows that the U,T, and J clades had a high frequency among the Egyptians, and that many of the so called Middle East clades were already present in Lower Egypt before the Greco-Romans, Turks and etc. ruled Egypt.
As a result, the finding of mtDNA U,T,J and N clades, and the Y-Chromosome R1 among, Anatolians, Cretans and Lower Egyptians explains the close relationship between the Minoans,and Anatolians. All of these people were Khas=Kusites, who had come from Upper Egypt and the Fezzan.
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Some researchers love to lie and make Black populations into “white” populations. In a recent article researchers claim that the Minoans were white because the majority of Minoans were classified in haplogroups H (43.2%), T (18.9%), K (16.2%) and I (8.1%). Haplogroups U5A, W, J2, U, X and J were each identified in a single individual. As a result, if the majority of Minoans were classified in haplogroups mtDNA H (43.2%) they represent a Black population not white population, since this mtDNA is carried by the Tuareg who are Black. This dna study is just an attempt to portray the Cretans as non-Africa. The dna evidence disputes this myth, because most belong to haplogroups H and U5.
The highest concentration of U5 is found among Berbers in NWA . It is also carried by Mande and Fulani Niger-Congo speakers in West Africa (1-4).
The U5 haplogroup carried by the Mande, like other SSWA is characterized by 16189,16192,16270 and 16320. The presence of hg U5 among the Mande speakers supports the linguistic evidence concerning the Keftiu.
Pierron, et al (2013) proposes that haplogroup H entered Africa from the Middle East. Pierron et al, date the hg H older than 9k. They wrote:
quote: The dates calculated from our data are in good agreement with this theory, since we dated the appearance of H and HV0 (ex pre-V) in the Middle East around 29,000 years before the Last Glacial Maximum. These haplogroups would then have been distributed throughout Europe. At the time of the Last Glacial Maximum, between 22,000 and 18,000 years BP, the H and HV0 haplogroups sheltered in the Franco-Cantabrian zone. Then the H1, (18,160 years BP), H3 (15,671 years BP), and V (16,428 years BP) haplogroups appeared as the climate started to improve and Europe was re-colonized. The U5b haplogroup also appeared (17,963 years BP) in the same area during that period. These four haplogroups re-populated Northern Europe in the same way as the haplogroups from the Southwest shelter zone.
But the idea that hg H is the result of a back migration from Europe to Africa, does not agree with the distribution of hg H in Africa. It is clear from the map that hg H is not found in Egypt. This seems strange because if it had entered Africa as the result of a back migration there should be more carriers of hg H in Egypt. . . Badro et al (2013) published a map of African mtDNA. The map makes it clear that hg H is primarily found in Northwest and West Africa this would support the spread of hg into Europe via Iberia, rather than a back migration to Africa from the Middle East. A back migration of hg H from Iberia to Africa is unlikely. In any area of research you look for the obvious , this would be true of the origination and spread of hg H. Obviously, if hg H originated in the Middle East, it would have spread from the Levant into Egypt, since Egypt is closer to the Middle East, than Iberia.
Badro et al (2013) has examined the frequency of hg H. These researchers found the highest frequency of hg H in the Libyan Sahara (61.29), Morocco (23.4%), Libya (25.8%), Mali (52.4%) and Burkina-Faso (22.5%).If hg H originated in the Levant there should be more carriers of hg H in the Middle East and Europe, than Sub-Saharan Africa (SSA).
If hg H in Africa is the result of a back migration the highest frequencies of this genome should move from the Levant through Arabia, Egypt and East Africa into the Sahara. But this is not the case in Egypt and Kenya there is o.o% of hg H, Saudi Arabia 8.7% and Yemen 4.7%. Instead of the highest frequencies of hg H moving from the Levant into Africa, we find that the migration of hg H is reversed. The frequency of hg H, decreases from Western Europe e.g., France 45.4% to 25% in Palestine. The frequency of hg H in Eurasia and Africa, suggest that hg H originated in Africa, and probably spread into Europe from Salelian Africa to Iberia and thence the Middle East. I believe most carriers of hg H migrated to Western Europe during the African invasion of Spain by Moors and Berbers and spread across Europe into the Middle East. In summary, the presence of hg H in Europe is probably of recent origin. The Tuareg and other Black Berber groups probably helped spread H in Europe after they invaded Europe along with other sahelians/Moors during the Islamic period.
The Y-chromosomes of Cretans also indicate the Cretans were Blacks Laisel Martinez et al , Paleolithic Y-haplogroup heritage predominates in a Cretan highland plateau, Eur J Hum Genet. 2007 http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v15/n4/full/5201769a.html provides a detailed discussion of the y-chromosomes in Crete.
The presence of y-chromosomes R1b, T, K and H in Crete indicate that the Cretans were Black.
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. Martinez et al (2007), observed that In the case of the R1 haplogroup, while frequencies of 19.2% and 21.7% are found in the Heraklion Prefecture and Lasithi Prefecture populations, respectively, more than half (56.1%) of the Lasithi Plateau individuals are R1-M306-derived.
In the case of Cretan E3b3-M123 (M34) chromosomes, they most likely signal East African or Middle-Eastern gene flow rather than European, due to the scarcity of this lineage in the latter area.19, 26 Similarly, the presence of E3b-M35* individuals in the Heraklion Prefecture population could probably be attributed to an East-African or North-African contribution.
This is interesting because researchers claim that haplotype H indicates that the Siddis, an African population in India are African because they carry haplotype H. Ramana et al (2001) claims that the discovery of H1 and H2 haplotypes among the Siddis is a “signature” of their African ancestry.
The finding that other Minoans carried haplotype T and K also indicates that the Minoans were Blacks, not whites. There are a number of shared African and Indian Y-chromosome haplotypes. These haplotypes include Y-hg T-M70 and H1. Haplogroup T-M70 is found among several Dravidian speaking tribal groups in South India, including the Yerukul (or Kurru) , Gonds and Kols. Y-haplogroup T-M70 is found in the eastern and southern regions of India (Trivedi et al, 2008). It has a relatively high frequency in Uttar Pradesh and Madhya Pradesh (Sharma et al, 2009). Sharma et al (2009) in a study of 674 Dalits found that 89.39 % belonged to Y-hg K*, in relation to Dravidian speakers it was revealed that Y-hg T-M70 was 11.1%. Trevedi et al (2008) report that Y-hg T-M70 is predominately found among Upper Caste Dravidians at a frequency of 31.9. The highest frequency of T-M70 in the World is found among the Fulani (18%) of West Africa. Martinez et al (2007) also found T-M70 and hg K in Crete see the figure above.
Ramana et al (2001) claims that the discovery of H1 and H2 haplotypes among the Siddis is a “signature” of their African ancestry. As a result, the Y-hg H1 subclade frequency among Dravidian speakers can also be considered as an indicator of an African-Cretan-Dravidian connection.
The H1 haplotype is found among many Dravidians. Sengupta et al (2006) noted that the subclades H1 and H2 were found among 26% of the Dravidian speakers in their study, especially in Tamil Nadu. Trivedi et al (2008) found the Y-hg H1 frequency of 22.2 among Dravidian speakers in their study. Sharma et al (2008) reports a frequency rate of 25.2%.
In conclusion, because the majority of Minoans were classified in mtdna haplogroups H (43.2%), the ancient Minoans were Black, not white, since the Tuareg are Blacks. The presence of y-chromosomes R1-306,R1b, T, K and H in Crete indicate that the Cretans were Black.
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References: Badro DA, Douaihy B, Haber M, Youhanna SC, Salloum A, et al. (2013) Y-Chromosome and mtDNA Genetics Reveal Significant Contrasts in Affinities of Modern Middle Eastern Populations with European and African Populations. PLoS ONE 8(1): e54616. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0054616 http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0054616
Pierron D, Chang I, Arachiche A, Heiske M, Thomas O, et al. (2011) Mutation Rate Switch inside Eurasian Mitochondrial Haplogroups: Impact of Selection and Consequences for Dating Settlement in Europe. PLoS ONE 6(6): e21543. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.002154
Ramana, G. V., Su, B., Jin, L., Singh, L., Wang, N., Underhill, P. & Chakraborty, R. (2001) Y-chromosome SNP haplotypes suggest evidence of gene flow among caste, tribe, and the migrant Siddi populations of Andhra Pradesh, South India. Eur J Hum Genet 9, 695 – 700. http://archive.is/UlNyk
Sengupta S, Zhivottovsky LA, King R, Mehdi SQ, Edmonds CA, Chow C-E T, Lin AA, Mitra M, Sil SK, Ramesh A, Rani MVU, Thakur CT, Cavalli-Sforza LL, Majumder PP, Underhill PA. (2006). Polarity and temporality of high-resolution Y-Chromosome distributions in India Identify both indigenous and exogenous expansions and reveal minor genetic influence of Central Asian Pastoralists. Am J of Hum Genet, 78 (2):202-221.
Sharma S, Rai E, Sharma P, Jena M, Singh S, Darvishi K, Bhat AK, Bhanwer AJS, Tiwari PK & Bamezai NK.(2009). The Indian origin of paternal R1a1* substantiates the autochthonous origin of Brahmins and the caste system. J of Hum Genet, 54: 47-55.
Trivedi R, Sahoo S, Singh A, Bindu GH, Banerjee J, Tandon M, Gaikwad S, Rajkumar R, Sitalaximi T, Ashma R, Chainy GBN, & Kashyap VK. (2008). Genetic imprints of pleistocene origin of Indian populations: A comprehensive Phylogeographic sketch of Indian Y-Chromosomes. Int J Hum Genet, 8(1-2): 97-118 Winters,C.(2012). There has been a Continuous Indigenous Sub-Saharan Presence in North Africa for 30ky. Comment: . http://olmec98.net/ContinuousEurope.pdf
Footnotes
1. Cerný V., Hajek M., Bromova M., Cmejla R., Diallo I. & Brdicka R. 2006. MtDNA of Fulani nomads and their genetic relationships to neighboring sedentary populations. Hum. Biol., 78: 9-27.
2. Rosa A, Brehem A. 2011. African human mtDNA phylogeography at-a-glance. J. Anthropol. Sci, 89:25-58.
3. Coia V., Destro-Bisol G., Verginelli F., Battaggia C., Boschi I., Cruciani F., Spedini G., Comas D. & Calafell F. 2005. Brief communication: mtDNA variation in North Cameroon: lack of Asian lineages and implications for back migration from Asia to sub-Saharan Africa. Am. J. Phys. Anthropol., 128: 678-681.
4. Ely B., Wilson J.L., Jackson F. & Jackson B.A. 2006. African-American mitochondrial DNAs often match mtDNAs found in multiple African ethnic groups. BMC. Biol., 4: 34. .
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ My thoughts: The above findings confirm the suprastraum theory of Indo-European migrations into Greece-- that is the actual IE speaking Proto-Greeks were themselves a small group who entered the region and spread their language and some of their culture among the predominant natives. This seems to be the prevailing theory of the spread of IE in other regions including India. By the way, the same theory may also apply to the Pre-Proto-Semitic speakers who entered the Levant from Africa.
Many people tend to identify the Mycenaeans with the early Hellenes (Greeks); however, 'Mycenaean' is a label applied to an archaeological group that was Bronze Age mainland Greece. While there is no doubt that early Hellenes were among the Mycenaean peoples, to identify the Mycenaeans as a whole as Greek is erroneous. Even the Hellenes in their ancient histories say that before the sons/tribes of Hellen spread forth there were 'Autochthones' (Aboriginal) peoples who ruled the peninsula and islands. The chief group who lived in the peninsula were a people called the Pelasgoi/Pelasgians whom the Greeks learned the art of building temples and other monuments and learned the rituals of worship. But there were other peoples mentioned like the Lapiths, Myrmidons, Minyans, Hyantes, Curetes, etc. etc.
Even the few surviving texts from the Mycenaean period written in Linear B script while in an early from of Greek show many nouns and names of places and deities having non-Greek/non-IE origin.
By the way, there were three main cultures in the Bronze Age Aegean-- the Mycenaean of mainland Greece, the Minoan of Crete, and the Cycladic of the Cycladic Islands. Are there any references to the latter??
Good post.
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We discussed Cretans already. The female parental markers were disclosed by Pontukudoulus (sp) et al. The Crete carried haplogroups found ONLY in Africans(Tunisians). This new paper probably talks again about SNP frequency.. Useless
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: We discussed Cretans already. The female parental markers were disclosed by Pontukudoulus (sp) et al. The Crete carried haplogroups found ONLY in Africans(Tunisians). This new paper probably talks again about SNP frequency.. Useless
Good point, but all of these papers are aimed at placing the origin of R1 outside Africa, and promote the Geno-Hamitic myth that all genes that are not mtDNA L, and Y-clades A and E, are the result of a back migration.
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: We discussed Cretans already. The female parental markers were disclosed by Pontukudoulus (sp) et al. The Crete carried haplogroups found ONLY in Africans(Tunisians). This new paper probably talks again about SNP frequency.. Useless
Good point, but all of these papers are aimed at placing the origin of R1 outside Africa, and promote the Geno-Hamitic myth that all genes that are not mtDNA L, and Y-clades A and E, are the result of a back migration.
the ancestor of R1 and R2 is haplogroup R-M207 That existed before the split into 1 and 2
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: We discussed Cretans already. The female parental markers were disclosed by Pontukudoulus (sp) et al. The Crete carried haplogroups found ONLY in Africans(Tunisians). This new paper probably talks again about SNP frequency.. Useless
Good point, but all of these papers are aimed at placing the origin of R1 outside Africa, and promote the Geno-Hamitic myth that all genes that are not mtDNA L, and Y-clades A and E, are the result of a back migration.
the ancestor of R1 and R2 is haplogroup R-M207 That existed before the split into 1 and 2
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: We discussed Cretans already. The female parental markers were disclosed by Pontukudoulus (sp) et al. The Crete carried haplogroups found ONLY in Africans(Tunisians). This new paper probably talks again about SNP frequency.. Useless
Good point, but all of these papers are aimed at placing the origin of R1 outside Africa, and promote the Geno-Hamitic myth that all genes that are not mtDNA L, and Y-clades A and E, are the result of a back migration.
the ancestor of R1 and R2 is haplogroup R-M207 That existed before the split into 1 and 2
posted
^ Lioness, don't even bother. I gave up on the fools a long time ago.
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So they are admitting Europeans are "depigmented" Africans!!!! So they are mimicking xyyman. They are admitting depigmentation took place recently even AFTER the Bronze Age. How is that for mis-interpretation...fag.
Quotes: Phenotypic inference for individuals HIrisPlex1 allows inference of pigmentation (hair, eye, and skin) phenotypes in humans, but it relies on specifying the genotypes of individuals at a panel of SNPs. Since we do not have diploid genotypes for our low coverage ancient data we cannot use it directly to infer phenotypes in the ancient samples.
While our inferences on ancient phenotypes are conditional on the availability of samples and their low coverage, they do seem to mirror the phenotypes depicted in visual art from the Aegean Bronze Age14 and to suggest their relative stability in the region, in contrast to other parts of Europe where depigmentation seems to have occurred since the Bronze Age6 or even more recently15 .
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So...Lioness I hope you admit I am correct. Europeans are depigmented Africans.
discussed already - A European population in Minoan Bronze Age Crete. Hughey JR1, M, Stamatoyannopoulos JA, Stamatoyannopoulos G.
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: So...Lioness I hope you admit I am correct. Europeans are depigmented Africans.
discussed already - A European population in Minoan Bronze Age Crete. Hughey JR1, M, Stamatoyannopoulos JA, Stamatoyannopoulos G.
"Depigmented Africans"? It's either Albinism or some other skin disease/s.
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: [q] Just read some of the supplementals? Are these people for real. Ha! Ha! Ha! Aha! Aha! Aha! Are they kidding me?! Clyde is correct...
Lioness?? Here are more that I like. He! He! [/qb]
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: It is the same result as the Sardinia bronze age study. GTFOH!!!
Unique haplotypes found only among ancient Crete and North Africans. Not found in mainland Europe. Same as Bronze age Sardinians.
HAAAAA! HAAAA!
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Sensation al claims?…..more feel good headliners to give Europeans that warm and fuzzy feeling that Europe belongs to them and they are somehow part of those great ancient civilization. Talk about the need to be pampered and psychosis. That is what a deficiency of melanin does.
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By George Stamatoyannopoulos et al, the Greek crew.
Introduction Since its inception in 1984 the use of ancient DNA in addressing biological questions has led to the genetic characterization of species and populations from all major biological lineages [1,2]. The discipline, molecular archaeology, did not however immediately flourish without debate. Its inauguration was led by a series of sensational claims, many of which were invalidated [3]. Despite its dubious beginning, the discipline now operates under strict
Conclusion: Our results do not allow us to draw any definite conclusions about the frequency of β thalassemias in the Minoans. ( Because we did not find any.)
On the average, 64% of the β thalassemias in the Greek population are due to mutations at IVS-1 [20].
In the modern Cretan population, four mutations at IVS-1, IVS-6, IVS-110, and IVS-116 account for 63% of all β thalassemia mutations [21].
Presumably high frequencies of IVS-1 mutations were characteristic of the ancient Mediterranean and Anatolian populations.
The average frequency of heterozygous β thalassemia in the modern Cretan population is 7.6% [29]
If that were also the frequency among the Minoans, we would expect to find one IVS-1 mutation among the 24 Minoans we sequenced, and we found none. (SAD FACE).
@TP. (rhetorical) Can you use HAPMAP to isolate this..” In the modern Cretan population, four mutations at IVS-1, IVS-6, IVS-110, and IVS-116 account for 63% of all β thalassemia mutations [21]”?
It seems like the modern Creteans are dis-similar to mainland Greeks. They are more admixed. Modern Greeks carry the IVS-1 but Creteans carry also IVS-6, IVS-110 and IVS-116.
I really need to focus in learning to use HAPMAP. [/q]
[QUOTE]Originally posted by xyyman: [q] Read!!! Note. It says "Otherssss....clearly negroid"
Crete is also an extension of North Africa. SSA(dark) and Saharans(red). []
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: [QB] So...Lioness I hope you admit I am correct. Europeans are depigmented Africans.
Of course everybody knows that
but that's like saying Europeans and Chinese are both Eurasians. That is kind of broad. Africans are the most diverse population in the world so some parts of Africa can be as different from each other as Italy is from China
So, if you come out and say "Europeans are depigmented Africans respect me, I'm your daddy" they might say they are descendants of Chad basin males and Libyan Tuareg females, R and H carriers respectively so you are not the daddy. You have to think ahead
^ yes, look at where Europeans are on this chart
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: So...Lioness I hope you admit I am correct. Europeans are depigmented Africans.
discussed already - A European population in Minoan Bronze Age Crete. Hughey JR1, M, Stamatoyannopoulos JA, Stamatoyannopoulos G.
"Depigmented Africans"? It's either Albinism or some other skin disease/s.
If multi-millions of light skin people exist that means they have been naturally selected to be that way in that environment
In other words in one environment a person with six fingers would be considered to be having a birth "defect" Yet if a population migrated into some other place and six fingered people came to be thriving large group of people then it would no longer be considered a "defect" That is relative
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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^^ This is "CLEARLY NEGROID FEATURES" ???? was the author drunk when he wrote this?
Again, Lioness why bother?
Also, the author's reference to "negroid" features specified the steatopygia and protrubant belly of the figure not the face. Unless you want to degenerate the thread even further about "negroid" facial features.
What about these Minoans?
^ Is this boy's face "negroid" enough? LOLPosts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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The Boxers Fresco from Bronze Age Akrotiri on the island of Thera (Santorini), c. 1700 BCE. (National Archaeological Museum, Athens)
can't say much about this one ^^ the whole profile is missing and a modern artist speculated one and drew in a restoration, the portion not raised and with no cracks ( it's done that was to differentiate new from original) Also most of the chest is like that, guessed
The other figure:
A similar flat color filled in ^^ no cracks flat portion here at the bottom
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
QUOTE!!!!! " Fragments of others with a more swarthy skin colour" and "and prognathism displayed by some of these are clearly Negroid" WTF can't you understand about that? Sorry Lioness we know who you are but that just pisses me off.
he cannot read. He finally came out. You never had me fooled...DJ. With your double meaning to your post. I can sniff pussies like you out without being next to you.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: QUOTE!!!!! " Fragments of others with a more swarthy skin colour" and "and prognathism displayed by some of these are clearly Negriod" WTF can't you understand about that. Sorry Lioness we know who you are but that fag just pisses me off.
Not only is he a fag brown-noser but he cannot read. He finally came out. You never had me fooled...DJ. With your double meaning to your post. I can sniff pussies like you out without being next to you.
It is not advisable to be talking like that in the forum
Anyway if you are saying Europeans are depigmented Africans then they are not depigmented "negro" Africans
It doesn't matter what this old books says, look at the original art - the original portions
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
Surprisingly no yDNA E1b1b* was not found when the marker (E1b1b-V13?) is found in 25% of Greeks. And it entered "Europe" in the late Neolithic. But then again look at who is the big dog in this paper. Mr Steppes himself, Reich! Understand the politics and you will not be fooled by lying Europeans. They probably which they can undo all they told us in the last 5-10 years.
I am with Dr Winters. The conspiracy is getting wider. How can E-V-13 be found in >25% of modern Greeks and be lost in Greeks 3000BC. It is impossible!!!
They seems to forget the "NUMEROUS" "Negroid" depiction in ancient Greece. Unless they were carriers of yDNA J2 and J1. lol! It comes full circle.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
I never said depigmented Negros. I said depigmented Africans. Berbers are Africans may be more than many south of the Sahara. Except of the San and Pygmies, Berbers may be the oldest Africans. Rememeber the carry yDNA A, E1b1b and some of the oldest linage age including mtDNA L. Not to mention H and U. Archaeological it looks like North Africa was occupied by AMH since 100,000years ago. Sources cited.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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Can someone post images of the many blacks found in Grecee to shut the Lioness down with his picture spamming?
May be the new study is suggesting the "Eurasian markers' came from the "Negroids" living in Greece. lol!
Europeans are really delusional and twisted.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
Originally posted by xyyman: QUOTE!!!!! " Fragments of others with a more swarthy skin colour" and "and prognathism displayed by some of these are clearly Negriod" WTF can't you understand about that. Sorry Lioness we know who you are but that fag just pisses me off.
Not only is he a fag brown-noser but he cannot read. He finally came out. You never had me fooled...DJ. With your double meaning to your post. I can sniff pussies like you out without being next to you.
Originally posted by Djehuti Lioness, don't even bother. I gave up on the fools a long time ago.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Punos_Rey: Xyyman. One more time.
I'm done with suspensions, if you can't dialogue without calling people some iteration of f** you'll be shown the door.
It is interesting that you discipline Afrocentric researchers, while you say nothing to the Euronuts. It is beginning to appear that you are a mole.
I taught for over 40 years. You remind me of teachers who establish rules that force them to do stupid things. Maybe you should reevaluate your rules.
This is an adult site, the use of profanity should not lead to banning. If you ban someone because of the use of profanity on an adult site suggest that you are motivated by other reasons. Are you really trying to destroy this site because you know that once Namerthoth, mike111, xyyman and others stop posting this site is dead.
Here it is I thought lioness was the plant. But are you reallv the plant--? Your behavior suggest you are out to destroy ES
You tell me not to spam, while lioness posted many pictures. on this site you can post as many as seven photos. Why are you trying to destroy ES?
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Punos_Rey: Xyyman. One more time.
I'm done with suspensions, if you can't dialogue without calling people some iteration of f** you'll be shown the door. [/qb]
It is interesting that you discipline Afrocentric researchers, while you say nothing to the Euronuts. It is beginning to appear that you are a mole.
I taught for over 40 years. You remind me of teachers who establish rules that force them to do stupid things. Maybe you should reevaluate your rules.
So you think in a university debate calling somebody a fag would be permitted?
That has no value whatsoever and degrades the dialogue
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
You tell me not to spam, while lioness posted many pictures. on this site you can post as many as seven photos. Why are you trying to destroy ES? [/qb]
you often use the forum to promote your own work. And you post much more repetitively than I do. You are obviously trying to spread your name and theories on the web as much as possible through repetition. Having your own blog and youtube is not enough. You take advantage to promote your own work, it's excessive
Admin: Let this be the last digression from the actual topic of this thread. Dr. Winters can message me if he wishes to further this discussion.
can't say much about this one ^^ the whole profile is missing and a modern artist speculated one and drew in a restoration, the portion not raised and with no cracks ( it's done that was to differentiate new from original) Also most of the chest is like that, guessed
The Cretan boy's profile is strikingly similar to many Egyptians like the herder below.
This is why I think Africans were present among the populations of ancient Crete. They may not have been a major presence as to constitute a major ethnicity but they were still present. Also, the Greek writings going back to Homer say that during the time of the Trojan War there were several nations or ethnicities in Crete besides the Eteo-Cretans (True Cretans) though non were described as Libyan (African).
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: [Q] Surprisingly no yDNA E1b1b* was not found when the marker (E1b1b-V13?) is found in 25% of Greeks. And it entered "Europe" in the late Neolithic. But then again look at who is the big dog in this paper. Mr Steppes himself, Reich! Understand the politics and you will not be fooled by lying Europeans. They probably which they can undo all they told us in the last 5-10 years.
I am with Dr Winters. The conspiracy is getting wider. How can E-V-13 be found in >25% of modern Greeks and be lost in Greeks 3000BC. It is impossible!!!
They seems to forget the "NUMEROUS" "Negroid" depiction in ancient Greece. Unless they were carriers of yDNA J2 and J1. lol! It comes full circle. [/QB]
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Punos_Rey: I've actually banned several euronuts.
Nice try though. If you have any further critiques of my discipline or how you perceive it feel free to message me, thanks.
Punos, I hope you are not using your position as moderator to settle old scores with xxyyman. You never liked him even before you became moderator. This place after getting new moderators is beginning to look more and more like Animal Farm. Chill out!
Admin: despite my personal feelings towards him I have given him way more latitude than I have people I suspected of outright trolling who I banned on the spot. It's a nice way to deflect from the main point being that he can discuss his points without calling people f*** just like every poster in this very thread except him. Again, if you wish to discuss the way I admin you can pm directly. Further diversions will be deleted.
[ 05. August 2017, 07:54 AM: Message edited by: Punos_Rey ]
Posts: 288 | From: Asia | Registered: Mar 2016
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People's sexual orientation has nothing to do with the subject, nor does is add anything relevant to this discourse.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: QUOTE!!!!! " Fragments of others with a more swarthy skin colour" and "and prognathism displayed by some of these are clearly Negriod" WTF can't you understand about that. Sorry Lioness we know who you are but that fag just pisses me off.
Not only is he a fag brown-noser but he cannot read. He finally came out. You never had me fooled...DJ. With your double meaning to your post. I can sniff pussies like you out without being next to you.
It is not advisable to be talking like that in the forum
Anyway if you are saying Europeans are depigmented Africans then they are not depigmented "negro" Africans
It doesn't matter what this old books says, look at the original art - the original portions
If you go by "your" stereotype "negro" Africans than yeah, but…
And I doubt this following represents a modern Greek.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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The Boxers Fresco from Bronze Age Akrotiri on the island of Thera (Santorini), c. 1700 BCE. (National Archaeological Museum, Athens)
can't say much about this one ^^ the whole profile is missing and a modern artist speculated one and drew in a restoration, the portion not raised and with no cracks ( it's done that was to differentiate new from original) Also most of the chest is like that, guessed
The other figure:
A similar flat color filled in ^^ no cracks flat portion here at the bottom [/QB]
You've always have been the creative type when it came to outlining profiles. What happened?
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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The Greeks really do have near-mythical origins, ancient DNA reveals By Ann GibbonsAug. 2, 2017 , 1:00 PM
Ever since the days of Homer, Greeks have long idealized their Mycenaean “ancestors” in epic poems and classic tragedies that glorify the exploits of Odysseus, King Agamemnon, and other heroes who went in and out of favor with the Greek gods. Although these Mycenaeans were fictitious, scholars have debated whether today’s Greeks descend from the actual Mycenaeans, who created a famous civilization that dominated mainland Greece and the Aegean Sea from about 1600 B.C.E. to 1200 B.C.E., or whether the ancient Mycenaeans simply vanished from the region.
Now, ancient DNA suggests that living Greeks are indeed the descendants of Mycenaeans, with only a small proportion of DNA from later migrations to Greece. And the Mycenaeans themselves were closely related to the earlier Minoans, the study reveals, another great civilization that flourished on the island of Crete from 2600 B.C.E. to 1400 B.C.E. (named for the mythical King Minos).
The ancient DNA comes from the teeth of 19 people, including 10 Minoans from Crete dating to 2900 B.C.E. to 1700 BCE, four Mycenaeans from the archaeological site at Mycenae and other cemeteries on the Greek mainland dating from 1700 B.C.E. to 1200 B.C.E., and five people from other early farming or Bronze Age (5400 B.C.E. to 1340 B.C.E.) cultures in Greece and Turkey. By comparing 1.2 million letters of genetic code across these genomes to those of 334 other ancient people from around the world and 30 modern Greeks, the researchers were able to plot how the individuals were related to each other.
The ancient Mycenaeans and Minoans were most closely related to each other, and they both got three-quarters of their DNA from early farmers who lived in Greece and southwestern Anatolia, which is now part of Turkey, the team reports today in Nature. Both cultures additionally inherited DNA from people from the eastern Caucasus, near modern-day Iran, suggesting an early migration of people from the east after the early farmers settled there but before Mycenaeans split from Minoans.
The Mycenaeans did have an important difference: They had some DNA—4% to 16%—from northern ancestors who came from Eastern Europe or Siberia. This suggests that a second wave of people from the Eurasian steppe came to mainland Greece by way of Eastern Europe or Armenia, but didn’t reach Crete, says Iosif Lazaridis, a population geneticist at Harvard University who co-led the study.
Not surprisingly, the Minoans and Mycenaeans looked alike, both carrying genes for brown hair and brown eyes. Artists in both cultures painted dark-haired, dark-eyed people on frescoes and pottery who resemble each other, although the two cultures spoke and wrote different languages. The Mycenaeans were more militaristic, with art replete with spears and images of war, whereas Minoan art showed few signs of warfare, Lazaridis says. Because the Minoans script used hieroglyphics, some archaeologists thought they were partly Egyptian, which turns out to be false.
The continuity between the Mycenaeans and living people is “particularly striking given that the Aegean has been a crossroads of civilizations for thousands of years,” says co-author George Stamatoyannopoulos of the University of Washington in Seattle. This suggests that the major components of the Greeks’ ancestry were already in place in the Bronze Age, after the migration of the earliest farmers from Anatolia set the template for the genetic makeup of Greeks and, in fact, most Europeans. “The spread of farming populations was the decisive moment when the major elements of the Greek population were already provided,” says archaeologist Colin Renfrew of the University of Cambridge in the United Kingdom, who was not involved in the work.
The results also show it is possible to get ancient DNA from the hot, dry landscape of the eastern Mediterranean, Renfrew says. He and others now have hope for getting DNA from groups such as the mysterious Hittites who came to ancient Anatolia sometime before 2000 B.C.E. and who may have been the source of Caucasian ancestry in Mycenaeans and early Indo-European languages in the region. Archaeologist Kristian Kristiansen of the University of Gothenburg in Sweden, who was not involved in the work, agrees. “The results have now opened up the next chapter in the genetic history of western Eurasia—that of the Bronze Age Mediterranean.”
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Genetic origins of the Minoans and Mycenaeans Iosif Lazaridis, 2017
The eastern influence in the Bronze Age populations from Greece and southwestern Anatolia is also supported by an analysis of their Y chromosomes. Four out of five males belonging to Minoans, Mycenaeans, and southwestern Anatolians (Supplementary Information section 3) belonged to haplogroup J, which was rare or non-existent in earlier populations from Greece and western Anatolia who were dominated by Y-chromosome haplogroup G2 (refs 1, 2, 17). Haplogroup J was present in Caucasus hunter–gatherers3 and a Mesolithic individual from Iran4, and its spread westwards may have accompanied the ‘eastern’ genome- wide influence.Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: So...Lioness I hope you admit I am correct. Europeans are depigmented Africans.
discussed already - A European population in Minoan Bronze Age Crete. Hughey JR1, M, Stamatoyannopoulos JA, Stamatoyannopoulos G.
"Depigmented Africans"? It's either Albinism or some other skin disease/s.
If multi-millions of light skin people exist that means they have been naturally selected to be that way in that environment
In other words in one environment a person with six fingers would be considered to be having a birth "defect" Yet if a population migrated into some other place and six fingered people came to be thriving large group of people then it would no longer be considered a "defect" That is relative
"Multi-millions" of "light skin" people exist not because of NATURAL SELECTION but because of the propaganda "whites" have spread like a disease across the Earth. In a NATURAL environment, they'd all die of cancers.
-------------------- “Three things cannot be long hidden: the sun, the moon, and the truth.” Posts: 195 | From: Southern Africa(Azania) | Registered: Mar 2017
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posted
No such thing as "Negroid". Negro is Spanish for black. Let's stop using Spanish words in the English language. So Lioness, what do you understand or don't understand when someone says "African"? You seem like a very confused individual, you think "Africans" all have the same phenotype like some inbred ***, we don't.
-------------------- “Three things cannot be long hidden: the sun, the moon, and the truth.” Posts: 195 | From: Southern Africa(Azania) | Registered: Mar 2017
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quote:Originally posted by Autshumato: No such thing as "Negroid". Negro is Spanish for black. Let's stop using Spanish words in the English language. So Lioness, what do you understand or don't understand when someone says "African"? You seem like a very confused individual, you think "Africans" all have the same phenotype like some inbred ***, we don't.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: So...Lioness I hope you admit I am correct. Europeans are depigmented Africans.
discussed already - A European population in Minoan Bronze Age Crete. Hughey JR1, M, Stamatoyannopoulos JA, Stamatoyannopoulos G.
"Depigmented Africans"? It's either Albinism or some other skin disease/s.
If multi-millions of light skin people exist that means they have been naturally selected to be that way in that environment
In other words in one environment a person with six fingers would be considered to be having a birth "defect" Yet if a population migrated into some other place and six fingered people came to be thriving large group of people then it would no longer be considered a "defect" That is relative
"Multi-millions" of "light skin" people exist not because of NATURAL SELECTION but because of the propaganda "whites" have spread like a disease across the Earth. In a NATURAL environment, they'd all die of cancers.
None of that is true light skinned Europeans and East Asians have had such skin for several thousand years at minimum. The fact that multi millions of them now exist attests to that. They don't live in some protective dome. In this regard the modern environment is not different from the ancient one in this regard
you can see right down to the pink here, the blood showing through the skin
quote:Originally posted by Autshumato: No such thing as "Negroid". Negro is Spanish for black. Let's stop using Spanish words in the English language. So Lioness, what do you understand or don't understand when someone says "African"? You seem like a very confused individual, you think "Africans" all have the same phenotype like some inbred ***, we don't.
tell xyyman about it, he introduced the word into the thread
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Autshumato: No such thing as "Negroid". Negro is Spanish for black. Let's stop using Spanish words in the English language. So Lioness, what do you understand or don't understand when someone says "African"? You seem like a very confused individual, you think "Africans" all have the same phenotype like some inbred ***, we don't.
quote:Originally posted by Autshumato: No such thing as "Negroid". Negro is Spanish for black. Let's stop using Spanish words in the English language. So Lioness, what do you understand or don't understand when someone says "African"? You seem like a very confused individual, you think "Africans" all have the same phenotype like some inbred ***, we don't.
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