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Carriers of mitochondrial DNA macrohaplogroup L3 basal lineages migrated back to Africa from Asia around 70,000 years ago. Cabrera VM, et al. BMC Evol Biol. 2018. Show full citation Abstract BACKGROUND: The main unequivocal conclusion after three decades of phylogeographic mtDNA studies is the African origin of all extant modern humans. In addition, a southern coastal route has been argued for to explain the Eurasian colonization of these African pioneers. Based on the age of macrohaplogroup L3, from which all maternal Eurasian and the majority of African lineages originated, the out-of-Africa event has been dated around 60-70 kya. On the opposite side, we have proposed a northern route through Central Asia across the Levant for that expansion and, consistent with the fossil record, we have dated it around 125 kya. To help bridge differences between the molecular and fossil record ages, in this article we assess the possibility that mtDNA macrohaplogroup L3 matured in Eurasia and returned to Africa as basal L3 lineages around 70 kya.
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It will end very badly if they try to run with this too hard. If many SSA Africans have ancestors that back migrated from Asia but they're still African enough, where do you draw the line? Why not many other back migrants that don't get to be "true negroes"? 70k is too early to claim Basal Eurasian as well...
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
It's like this.
Step one toe across the imaginary continental line separating Egypt from Sinai, even for an instant, and forever you are an African no more no matter what.
Put your whole body firmly in Africa to the farthest west, even for 30000 of your 35000 years and you remain 'Eurasian' into infinity irregardless of anything.
Simon makes the definitions. Simon Says 1 the Arabian plate is SW Asia EURasia etc. 2 Arabian plate languages are AFROasian.
Simon is schizo, making up a Simon Reality
I don't play Simon Sez
I know 'AFROasia' is a place where Sinai, Palestine, Israel, Lebanon, and coastal Syria sit on the African plate, while the rest of Syria along with Iraq, Kuwait, Qatar, Bahrain, United Arab Emirates, Oman, Yemen, Saudi, and Jordan sit on the breakaway Arabian plate.
posted
So, from where exactly did it “back migrate”? And what was in Asia before L?
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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From Wikipedia & westhunter blog: Fixation Index
FST in humans Edit Autosomal genetic distances based on classical markers Edit In their study The History and Geography of Human Genes (1994), Cavalli-Sforza, Menozzi and Piazza provide some of the most detailed and comprehensive estimates of genetic distances between human populations, within and across continents. Their initial database contains 76,676 gene frequencies (using 120 blood polymorphisms), corresponding to 6,633 samples in different locations. By culling and pooling such samples, they restrict their analysis to 491 populations. They focus on aboriginal populations that were at their present location at the end of the 15th century when the great European migrations began.[5] When studying genetic difference at the world level, the number is reduced to 42 representative populations, aggregating subpopulations characterized by a high level of genetic similarity. For these 42 populations, Cavalli-Sforza and coauthors report bilateral distances computed from 120 alleles. Among this set of 42 world populations, the greatest genetic distance observed is between Mbuti Pygmies and Papua New Guineans, where the Fst distance is 0.4573, while the smallest genetic distance (0.0021) is between the Danish and the English. When considering more disaggregated data for 26 European populations, the smallest genetic distance (0.0009) is between the Dutch and the Danes, and the largest (0.0667) is between the Lapps and the Sardinians. The mean genetic distance among the 861 available pairs in the world population is 0.133
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The greatest distance between any 2 human populations is between Papuans & Congo Pygmies, as I predicted based on longest geographic isolation distance.
The Fst between European & Sub-Saharan buman populations is .153, the Fst between coyotes & wolves is also .153.
quote:Originally posted by Oshun: It will end very badly if they try to run with this too hard. If many SSA Africans have ancestors that back migrated from Asia but they're still African enough, where do you draw the line? Why not many other back migrants that don't get to be "true negroes"? 70k is too early to claim Basal Eurasian as well...
Doesn't this mean many of these EXTREME Afrocentrics finally get to lay claim to many "dark skinned" Asian civilizations? Correct me. I don't know why certain groups like to champion this theory especially if they have anti-African motives.
Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014
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quote:Originally posted by Oshun: It will end very badly if they try to run with this too hard. If many SSA Africans have ancestors that back migrated from Asia but they're still African enough, where do you draw the line? Why not many other back migrants that don't get to be "true negroes"? 70k is too early to claim Basal Eurasian as well...
Doesn't this mean many of these EXTREME Afrocentrics finally get to lay claim to many "dark skinned" Asian civilizations? Correct me. I don't know why certain groups like to champion this theory especially if they have anti-African motives.
All humans came from Africa and the people who were moving around 70thousand years ago were no different physically than Africans. Calling them "Eurasian" is meaningless. Modern human diversity did not exist back then as it does today.
African scholars have been teaching that all humans came from Africa and that civilization, math and science originated there as well. That is not the same as random "Afrocentrics" spewing whatever nonsense you see on the net.
It would be insane for anybody to assume these people looked like anything but Africans and hardly distinguishable from Africans 70thousand years ago.
And also point of fact most racists admitted this in the 18th and 19th century as well as most of them claimed that the "aboriginal" stock of humans were primitive negroids who only later became "civilized" as a result of the evolution of white skin. They too acknowledged that all humans originally had black skin. And even they called many populations outside of Africa, blacks or Negroid.... as representatives of the "archaic" type of humans that originally settled the planet.
What is going on here is simply a game of semantics.
They are using this theory of "back migration" to claim all African genes (because logically all those genes were African to begin with) and use the label Eurasian no matter if logically there was no real difference between the two groups in the first place to even justify such a distinction. Hence they can lump all "Eurasians" no matter whether they be black like Aborigines or Indians or white skinned like Saami into this same population.
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They think that by claiming L3 for "Eurasia" then M and N are "Eurasian" not African. They're not thinking about SSA also being L3.
Posts: 2508 | From: . | Registered: Nov 2011
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Honestly I think this is just them grasping at straws with limited data sets. Find some 50kya genes from Africa or older and then we can have more confidence in such theoretical models. Otherwise those models are pretty unreliable.
Posts: 8889 | Registered: May 2005
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If certain parties elect to go with this "back migration claim" then they'd be forced to explain and reconcile with substructure among current Africans.
Archaic Admixture will have to be Addressed, AMH genetic diversity will still need to be addressed. Post Back-migration OOA migrations will still need to be Addressed. The initial OOA still has to be realized. Basal Eurasian being directly related to the ancestors of most SSAs will have to be realized.
Afro centrists can claim anything under the sun. L3 came back to Africa? shit, fine by me Since it was Africans who settled in West Asia, then came back to resettled among the entire Continent....Since those Africans still currently hold/Account for almost the entire AMH variation in their genepool ...and since autosomal continuity from these ancient humans remains a myth I only see reason to welcome the possibility... It'll make the job easier.
Welcome to Africa Posts: 1781 | From: New York | Registered: Jul 2016
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Honestly I think this is just them grasping at straws with limited data sets. Find some 50kya genes from Africa or older and then we can have more confidence in such theoretical models. Otherwise those models are pretty unreliable.
This is one of the few cases where aDNA from Africa won't really help. This is a conversation that needs to be had over archaeology. This model can only be disproved by human activity (or lack of) over 70kya ...On the contrary >70kya human remains from Eurasia can corroborate this theory genetically... If they resemble Modern Humans enough.
Posts: 1781 | From: New York | Registered: Jul 2016
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quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro: ^ @E.D.exactly
Welcome to Africa
:cool: Got to add Anatolia.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Honestly I think this is just them grasping at straws with limited data sets. Find some 50kya genes from Africa or older and then we can have more confidence in such theoretical models. Otherwise those models are pretty unreliable.
This is one of the few cases where aDNA from Africa won't really help. This is a conversation that needs to be had over archaeology. This model can only be disproved by human activity (or lack of) over 70kya ...On the contrary >70kya human remains from Eurasia can corroborate this theory genetically... If they resemble Modern Humans enough.
Well we know that ancestors of Australian Aborigines are candidates for this population along with ancestors of Andaman Islanders.
Not sure aDNA would not help. Africans have always been in Africa and unless they disappeared and were replaced by "backmigrants" the whole model is stupid.
Or unless all Africans left Africa and then came back with the back migrants it still doesn't make sense.
Basically they have no clue when humans first left Africa and migrated to South Asia and Australia. Some say it was 100,000 kya and others say 60,000 kya. This is the problem with speculative models not hard data. But yes archaeology can help.
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Basal clades are in Africa, diversity is highest in Africa, frequency is highest in Africa, they haven’t reported any novel basal lineages unique to Asia and yet this study still exist and is taken seriously... idk what else an Ancient african can reveal that isn’t already hinted at or accepted mainstream.
Ps: the map was created by the Lioness Production team... you gotta consult them to get the image shoop’d.
Posts: 1781 | From: New York | Registered: Jul 2016
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That is why I totally ignored it and most people on other forums. Waste of bandwodth.
quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro: Basal clades are in Africa, diversity is highest in Africa, frequency is highest in Africa, they haven’t reported any novel basal lineages unique to Asia and yet this study still exist and is taken seriously... idk what else an Ancient african can reveal that isn’t already hinted at or accepted mainstream.
Ps: the map was created by the Lioness Production team... you gotta consult them to get the image shoop’d.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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Received: 10 August 2017Accepted: 5 June 2018Published: 19 June 2018
Abstract
Background
The main unequivocal conclusion after three decades of phylogeographic mtDNA studies is the African origin of all extant modern humans. In addition, a southern coastal route has been argued for to explain the Eurasian colonization of these African pioneers. Based on the age of macrohaplogroup L3, from which all maternal Eurasian and the majority of African lineages originated, the out-of-Africa event has been dated around 60-70 kya. On the opposite side, we have proposed a northern route through Central Asia across the Levant for that expansion and, consistent with the fossil record, we have dated it around 125 kya. To help bridge differences between the molecular and fossil record ages, in this article we assess the possibility that mtDNA macrohaplogroup L3 matured in Eurasia and returned to Africa as basal L3 lineages around 70 kya. Results
The coalescence ages of all Eurasian (M,N) and African (L3 ) lineages, both around 71 kya, are not significantly different. The oldest M and N Eurasian clades are found in southeastern Asia instead near of Africa as expected by the southern route hypothesis. The split of the Y-chromosome composite DE haplogroup is very similar to the age of mtDNA L3. An Eurasian origin and back migration to Africa has been proposed for the African Y-chromosome haplogroup E. Inside Africa, frequency distributions of maternal L3 and paternal E lineages are positively correlated. This correlation is not fully explained by geographic or ethnic affinities. This correlation rather seems to be the result of a joint and global replacement of the old autochthonous male and female African lineages by the new Eurasian incomers.
Conclusions
These results are congruent with a model proposing an out-of-Africa migration into Asia, following a northern route, of early anatomically modern humans carrying pre-L3 mtDNA lineages around 125 kya, subsequent diversification of pre-L3 into the basal lineages of L3, a return to Africa of Eurasian fully modern humans around 70 kya carrying the basal L3 lineages and the subsequent diversification of Eurasian-remaining L3 lineages into the M and N lineages in the outside-of-Africa context, and a second Eurasian global expansion by 60 kya, most probably, out of southeast Asia. Climatic conditions and the presence of Neanderthals and other hominins might have played significant roles in these human movements. Moreover, recent studies based on ancient DNA and whole-genome sequencing are also compatible with this hypothesis.
The Eurasian origin of mtDNA macrohaplogroup L3
The southern route hypothesis proposes that the Eurasian branches (M and N) of macrohaplogroup L3 differentiated in or near the African continent and rapidly spread across the Asian peninsulas to reach Australia and Melanesia [45]. Under this hypothesis, it is expected that, the coalescence ages of haplogroups should generally decrease from Africa to Australia. However, we have demonstrated that this is not the case [53, 54, 55]. Just on the contrary, the oldest M and N haplogroups are from southern China and Australasia, not India, and the associations between longitudinal geographic distances and relative ages of the M and N haplogroups run, contrary to expectation, from east to west [53, 54]. This presents us with a dilemma: It appears that two gravity centers of L3 expansion exist, one in Africa and one in southeastern Asia. A geographic equidistant midpoint would situate the primary radiation of L3 in India if a southern route were followed by the African colonizers and above the Himalayas, between Tibet and Pamir, if the northern route was followed. Furthermore, as the coalescence age of the African L3 branches and that of the Eurasian L3 (MN) branches are very similar (Table 1), at approximately 71 kya, the temporal and spatial midpoints might also coincide. As the group of modern humans that hypothetically returned to Africa is expected to include both females and males, searching for Y-chromosome phylogenetic and phylogeographic information might provide additional information.
The Eurasian origin of Y-chromosome haplogroup E
An origin in Asia and return to Africa was proposed, long ago, for the Y-chromosome African haplogroup E [61]. This hypothesis was based on the derived state of its African YAP+ haplotypes 4 and 5 (haplogroup E) with respect to the ancestral Asian YAP+ haplotype 3 (haplogroup D). The later discovery of new markers evidenced that D and E were sister branches of the YAP+ node. Haplogroup D showed the derived status for M174 and the ancestral status for M40 in Asia, whereas haplogroup E was characterized by the derived status for M40 and the M174 ancestral status throughout Africa, thus the migratory sense between continents of both haplogroups could not be assured [76]. A few YAP+ individuals, ancestral for both markers, were detected in West Africa [77] and in Tibet [78]. Although assigned to the para-haplogroup DE*, its actual ancestral state could not be confirmed. Furthermore, a new mutation (P143) united the two other Eurasian haplogroups C and F as brothers and, in turn, DE and CF were joined to an ancestral node defined by mutations M168 and M294 [79]. The initial scenario proposed to explain this complicated situation was that two independent migrations out of Africa occurred: one marked by D, and the other marked by the CF pair of lineages [80]. However, a new interpretation arose following the discovery of more than 60,000 single nucleotide variants by next generation sequencing techniques. The most parsimonious interpretation of the Y-chromosome phylogeny constructed with these variants is that the predominant African haplogroup E arose outside the continent and back-migrated to Africa [59]. The DE split as a lower bound (69.0 ± 14.7 kya) and the radiation of E into Africa as an upper bound (65.5 ± 8.5 kya) yields a time frame highly coincidental with the dates estimated for the mtDNA haplogroup L3 expansions (Table 1). Furthermore, the spatial distribution of the residual Y-chromosome haplogroup D in Asia is a good indicator of the geographical location of the putative DE split. The highest frequency and diversity of D are in the Tibet region. Although D is also present at low incidence throughout southeast Asia, two other centers with notable frequency are in Japan and the Andaman Islands [78, 81, 82], possibly representing edge relic areas of a wider distribution long ago. There are no native D lineages in India, decreasing the possibility that this subcontinent was the center of the DE partition, which argues against a southern route. It is likely that the divergence of the Y-chromosome D and E haplogroups occurred up to the Himalayas and in or westward of the Tibet which coincides with the hypothetical bifurcation center proposed for the mtDNA L3 macrohaplogroup.
Fig. 1
Geographic origin and dispersion of mtDNA L haplogroups: a Sequential expansion of L haplogroups inside Africa and exit of the L3 precursor to Eurasia. b Return to Africa and expansion to Asia of basal L3 lineages with subsequent differentiation in both continents. The geographic ranges of Neanderthals, Denisovans and Erectus are estimates only
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Coetaneous east and westward expansions of modern humans from Central Asia The above described coincidental divergences of female and male lineages occurred during a glaciation period (70 - 100 Kya), it is possible that cold climatic conditions forced humans southwards and that, upon being confronted with the Himalayas, humans dispersed across southeastern and southwestern Asia. It is likely that this climatic change also led the Neanderthals to extend their southern range and, consequently increase their geographic overlap with humans and, possibly, Denisovans, outcompeting them in the search for resources (Figure 1). This southward retreat was more extensive in the west, as evidenced by the total occupation of the Levant by the Neanderthals approximately 70 kya and the forced return of modern humans carrying the mtDNA L3 and Y-chromosome E basal lineages to Africa.
--Carriers of mitochondrial DNA macrohaplogroup L3 basal lineages migrated back to Africa from Asia around 70,000 years ago
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Ha ha ha! Guess Black Africans need to stop referring to themselves as Sub-Saharan African and start referring to themselves as Sub-Saharan Eurasians! Xyyman says that Europeans are depigmented Africans. It turns out that Africans are pigmented Eurasians! As of the publication of this paper, Africans simply do not exist. we are now all White/Eurasians.
Posts: 288 | From: Asia | Registered: Mar 2016
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This isn't going to change that the oldest lineages are African. So they just want to shoot themselves in the foot even more than they have on their "true negro" genetic substructure? They can be my guest!
Posts: 2508 | From: . | Registered: Nov 2011
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You see how they are incorporating archaics where they don't belong? This is last ditch multi-regionalism.
Posts: 1254 | From: howdy | Registered: Mar 2014
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"This is why ancient remains outside of the African continent that precede a 65 KYA OOA are so important to their psyche. Why non Human archaics and them having such ancestry is so important. Its so important for these remains to show some continuity with later populations and not be dead ends. WHY? Because if the data keeps coming as its coming, probably Every modern Autosomal component picked up in "Admixture" is just going to be a "Different Type of African". Neanderthal is really all they have if these early sapien sapiens dont pan out."
Posts: 2463 | From: New Jersey USA | Registered: Dec 2007
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@beyoku Can you answer the question? Is BR*(xDE,JR) = to CF?
Posts: 1254 | From: howdy | Registered: Mar 2014
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
I get it but I've never called myself sub anything
Archaic homo are human
There's a new genetics journal by/for Africans. Let's hope they break Euro mode "miseducation." Let's hope rational independent minds get published. If so, expect a thought revolution re interpretation of African data in 10 yrs time. (I can dream can't I? All depends on the funders. )
We who are Afrikan don't have much time. Natural climate cycling or human induced climate. The former bodes a full blown Earth's wobble Ice Age 4000CE. The latter, a near complete human made Ice Caps (polar & montane) meltdown within 100 years. Either scenario pressages physical takeover of Inner Africa. 'Nature' ravaged Eurasians will need new homelands. They've always taken whatever they want via Elite Africans. 'Caribbes' have no Armed Forces. Yanks, now, will repell intruders. Yanks, then, will just move in and displace the Afrikans Indians and Latinos. They already have Australia, Argentina, etc.
Africans outside the Great Lakes don't have government truly responsible to the governed. Elites will give everything away for rum tobacco and horses nearly everywhere else in Inner Africa.
Humanity may wise up and stave off a 'Wet Age'. Only a pluvial can save us from the coming Ice Age.
@ 42 • Access your favorite Y Tree chart w/Paint • Save under a different name • Work on the left side of your equation • Delete the 'x' lines of the tree • What's left is the correct right side solution.
quote:subclades, it is likely that at least one of these representthe sub-Saharan African-specific Haplogroup B, whilethe other cluster may contain a typically non-sub-Saharan African haplogroup (for example HaplogroupsF, G and I have been found at low frequencies amongsttypically African ethnic groups in the DemocraticRepublic of São Tomé and Príncipe [20], presumablybecause of European (especially Portuguese) introgres-sion during the Slave trade.
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Ha chacha Tweaking it I get CF(xK*) Oldschool white anthropology had balls enough to show the faces of exemplar populations.
Peep this E Asian Y Tree I edited per your equation. Hope I got it right. B + CF*(xDE,JK) or B C F G H & I. Tropical 'Paleoblax' & Temperate-humid 'Mousterianbrowns' ? Hahaa!
@ Beyoku I been hashing contemporaneous birthday Sapiens and Neanderthal. Why? Jebel Irhoud's face and the AfrAm & Mbo A00 nrY.
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Funny how folks don't get up in arms when the establishment shows its hand as to how far fetched and bogus their so-called "science" is and full of agendas..... Yet black folks pushing facts are seen as "fringe"....
Hilarious.
I recall folks on this same forum saying how "objective" modern science and DNA is.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Funny how folks don't get up in arms when the establishment shows its hand as to how far fetched and bogus their so-called "science" is and full of agendas..... Yet black folks pushing facts are seen as "fringe"....
Hilarious.
I recall folks on this same forum saying how "objective" modern science and DNA is.
Right.
It's not that terrible, it means that a subset of Africans returned … and here we can trace who ...
quote:The Bambara & Madinka 40% L3 Lineage
Mitochondrial DNA Variation in Mauritania and Mali and their Genetic Relationship to Other Western Africa Populations
Table 2) was detected in Mali. Although it shares the HVI 222 transition with other North African sequences belonging to haplogroup H (Rando et al. 1998), the RFLP analysis placed it in the basal HV cluster. Surprisingly for a western Africa country, around 42% of the sub-Saharan African sequences were L3 lineages . The predominant haplogroups belonged to L3b (17%), L3e (13%) and L3d (8%), but with different distribution within ethnolinguistc groups. Whereas the Bambara have higher frequencies of L3b (21%) and L3e (10%), L3d (10%) is similar in both samples
~González AM Mitochondrial DNA variation in Mauritania and Mali and their genetic relationship to other Western Africa populations.
quote:Within the human mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) tree, haplogroup L3 encompasses not only many sub-Saharan Africans but also all ancient non-African lineages, and its age therefore provides an upper bound for the dispersal out of Africa. An analysis of 369 complete African L3 sequences places this maximum at ∼70 ka, virtually ruling out a successful exit before 74 ka, the date of the Toba volcanic supereruption in Sumatra.
[…]
The L3 mtDNA pool within Africa suggests a migration from Eastern Africa to Central Africa ∼60 to 35 ka and major migrations in the immediate postglacial again linked to climate. The largest population size increase seen in the L3 data is 3–4 ka in Central Africa, corresponding to Bantu expansions, leading diverse L3 lineages to spread into Eastern and Southern Africa in the last 3–2 ka.
~Pedro Soares et al. The Expansion of mtDNA Haplogroup L3 within and out of Africa Molecular Biology and Evolution, Volume 29, Issue 3, 1 March 2012, Pages 915–927
quote:"More generally, it has often been suggested that there is an extant tropical belt of human populations that anatomically resemble sub-Saharan Africans (with 'racial' features such as very dark skin, curly hair and so on). They include some southern Indians, the Andamese, the so-called Negritos of the Phillipines (Aeta/Agta) and the Malay Penisula (Semang), Papuans and Aboriginal Australians. These people, it as suggested, might be the survivors of a 'southern coastal route' from the Horn of Africa along the tropical coastline through to Southeast Asia and Australia (Nei and Roychoudhury 1992). The bulk of EUrasian populations were then suggested to be the survivors if a 'northern route': out of Egypt into the 'Levantine corridor', and thence into both Europe and Asia (Lahr 1996).'
~Hans-Jürgen Bandelt et. 2006. EDS. Human Mitochondrial DNA and the Evolution of Homo sapiens. p. 234
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Andromeda2025: This L3 back migration happens before or after M & N split off?
There are so many holes in this theory of alleged back-migrations, its not even funny no more with all the contradictions.
quote:
"Ancient DNA is the only tool we have for characterizing past genomic diversity. It teaches us things we don't know about history from archaeology and linguistics and can help us better understand present-day populations," said Pontus Skoglund, a postdoctoral researcher in the Reich lab and the study's first author. "We need to ensure we use it for the benefit of all populations around the world, perhaps especially Africa, which contains the greatest human genetic diversity in the world but has been underserved by the genomics community.
Long time coming
Although ancient-DNA research has revealed insights into the population histories of many areas of the world, delving into the deep ancestry of African groups wasn't possible until recently because genetic material degrades too rapidly in warm, humid climates.
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Archaic homo are human 
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