quote:Objectives The Sahel is a semi‐arid zone stretching from the Atlantic Ocean in the west to the Red Sea in the east and from the Sahara in the north to the Sudanian Savanna in the south. Here, we investigated the genetic history of the spread of Northern African ancestry common among Berbers, the Y DNA haplogroup R1b‐V88, and Chadic languages throughout the Sahel, with a focus on Chad.
Materials and methods We integrated and analyzed genotype data from 751 individuals from Chad, Burkina Faso, Mali, South Sudan, and Sudan in the context of a global reference panel of 5,966 individuals.
Results We found that genetic diversity in Chad was broadly divided by a north–south axis. The core ancestry of Southern Chadians was Central African, most closely related to Pygmies. Southern Chadians then experienced four waves of gene flow over the last 3,000 years from West‐Central Africans, Eastern Africans, West‐Central Africans again, and then Arabians. In contrast, Northern Chadians did not share Central African ancestry and were not influenced by the first wave of West‐Central Africans but were influenced by Northern African ancestry.
Discussion We found that Y DNA haplogroup R1b entered the Chadian gene pool during Baggarization. Baggara Arabs spoke Arabic, not Chadic, implying that people carrying R1b‐V88 were not responsible for the spread of Chadic languages, which may have spread approximately 3,700 years ago. We found no evidence for migration of Near Eastern farmers or any ancient episodes involving Eurasian backflow.
TL;DR Daniel Shriner et al suggest that R1b in Chadian populations may come from Baggara Arabs rather than a more ancient back-migration from Eursia.
posted
Selected excerpts from the text of the paper:
quote:In contrast to the Laal and Sara, the Daza, Kanembu, and Tubu share Northern African ancestry. We detected two waves of gene flow (Table 4). The first wave occurred 32 generations ago between the Eastern African and West-Central African references. The second wave introduced Arabian ancestry and/or Northern African ancestry 15 generations ago, coinciding with the entry of Arabian ancestry into Southern Chad.
quote:We did not find evidence of immigration of Near Eastern farmers or ancient Eurasians of any sort. We found that the Y DNA haplogroup R1b correlated with the presence of Arabian and Western Asian ancestries in the Sudanese gene pool. Using autosomal data, we found that Western Asian and Arabian ancestries mixed in the 13th century prior to entering the Sudanese gene pool. We found that Arabian ancestry migrated from east to west, having entered the Sudanese gene pool 20 generations ago, the Chadian gene pool 15 generations ago, and the Cameroonian and Nigerian gene pools 10 generations ago. Linguistic data support this path: Nigerian Arabic and Chadian Arabic are closer to Sudanese Arabic than to Arabic in Northern Africa (Owens, 1994). We also found that R1b was present in many populations other than Chadic speakers.
quote:However, in both the Hausa and the Mada, we did see Eastern African ancestry. Therefore, the genetic evidence supports the hypothesis that Chadic speakers were originally from the Nile Valley and that these people reached the west approximately 3,700 years ago. Dense sampling from Egypt and Libya are necessary to further address this issue.
posted
Good find...Seems like someone reached out to Sanger University and didn't completely forget that we have Autosomal DNA from the Sahel. And it's none other than Daniel shriner.
I need to brush up on the history of Baggara. I was aware of the fact that V88 doesn't seem to be associated with Eurasian Geneflow directly. Hence suggesting North Africans spread it >6kya or so but the Arabic speaking baggara? hmm...?
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TBH... I don't understand what's going on here. Results of study > No correlation with R-V88 and Eurasian ancestry dated between 600-300 years ago Conclusion of study > the Arabic speaking Baggara spread V88.
...I don't understand why they didn't just say the distribution is unresolved. They provide no novel insight on how it could've spread using the current sample set.
Are they telling me that the Baggara spread V88 which coalesces and forms a clade with Southern Europeans from North east Africa? I need more evidence.
Other than that this paper is insightful as we see that the chadic populations non-SSA profile can be largely attributed to relatively recent geneflow. We know for fact that there was ancient geneflow from and towards North Africa but it doesn't distinctly show itself. So much for Sahelians just being a mixture of SSA and (Eurasian)North African.
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quote:Other than that this paper is insightful as we see that the chadic populations non-SSA profile can be largely attributed to relatively recent geneflow. We know for fact that there was ancient geneflow from and towards North Africa but it doesn't distinctly show itself. So much for Sahelians just being a mixture of SSA and (Eurasian)North African.
I dunno, surely the first Chadic-speakers must have had significant (native) North African ancestry if they were descended from proto-Afrasan speakers. What do you mean when you say "ancient gene flow from and towards North Africa" wouldn't distinctly show itself?
quote:Originally posted by Tyrannohotep: [QUOTE]I dunno, surely the first Chadic-speakers must have had significant (native) North African ancestry if they were descended from proto-Afrasan speakers.
Why do you say that?
-------------------- Black Roots. Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Tyrannohotep: [QUOTE]I dunno, surely the first Chadic-speakers must have had significant (native) North African ancestry if they were descended from proto-Afrasan speakers.
Why do you say that?
By “North African”, I mean indigenous “black” people of northern Africa. Not the Arab/Mediterranean-looking types the label “North Africa” often conjures in people’s heads, even if some of them have indigenous ancestry to varying degrees.
quote:Originally posted by Tyrannohotep: [QUOTE]I dunno, surely the first Chadic-speakers must have had significant (native) North African ancestry if they were descended from proto-Afrasan speakers.
Why do you say that?
By “North African”, I mean indigenous “black” people of northern Africa. Not the Arab/Mediterranean-looking types the label “North Africa” often conjures in people’s heads, even if some of them have indigenous ancestry to varying degrees.
I see. Thank you for elaborating. BTW, it seems geographic proximity with early Nilo-Saharan speakers is informative to pin point migration flow of early Chadic speakers.
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I hope they are looking at DNA from remains over 2,000 years old though....
Trying to extrapolate backwards from more recent DNA data always turns out to be problematic. Especially when you know there was interaction over time between various populations. Identifying ancient North African specific lineages will never happen without ancient DNA.
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quote:Originally posted by Tyrannohotep: I dunno, surely the first Chadic-speakers must have had significant (native) North African ancestry if they were descended from proto-Afrasan speakers. What do you mean when you say "ancient gene flow from and towards North Africa" wouldn't distinctly show itself?
I meant to say that NA ancestry should be present in these populations predating "arabization"...but so far it isn't entirely Identifiable. Which can imply that ancient N.African ancestry might be more widespread in SSA. Basically the lines are blurring even more.
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quote:Originally posted by Tyrannohotep: I dunno, surely the first Chadic-speakers must have had significant (native) North African ancestry if they were descended from proto-Afrasan speakers. What do you mean when you say "ancient gene flow from and towards North Africa" wouldn't distinctly show itself?
I meant to say that NA ancestry should be present in these populations predating "arabization"...but so far it isn't entirely Identifiable. Which can imply that ancient N.African ancestry might be more widespread in SSA. Basically the lines are blurring even more.
Of course populations adjacent to the Sahara would have degrees of ANA* ancestry. But assuming ANA is pre-OOA in affinity, wouldn't this still stand out in, say, an ADMIXTURE test rather than be subsumed into standard SSA ancestry?
To give you an idea of what I mean, suppose you had a k=2 graph with ANA and OOA representing one color and the various SSA ancestries representing the other color. I'd think the ANA ancestry would be quite apparent in near-Saharan populations rather than all being assigned to the SSA color.
* I believe this means ancient/ancestral/aboriginal North African.
quote:Originally posted by Tyrannohotep: Of course populations adjacent to the Sahara would have degrees of ANA* ancestry. But assuming ANA is pre-OOA in affinity, wouldn't this still stand out in, say, an ADMIXTURE test rather than be subsumed into standard SSA ancestry?
To give you an idea of what I mean, suppose you had a k=2 graph with ANA and OOA representing one color and the various SSA ancestries representing the other color. I'd think the ANA ancestry would be quite apparent in near-Saharan populations rather than all being assigned to the SSA color.
* I believe this means ancient/ancestral/aboriginal North African. [/QB]
Technically it could stand out in an ADMIXTURE run if you have a good enough source population for "ANA." but at K2 with modern populations ANA should split between OOA and SSA.
...here's the thing.
We can get a hint of what might be happening looking back at My response to Oshun about that hilarious recap Pagani wrote earlier this year. In an either or scenario "ANA" Can be 2 things:
-A population that branched off just before BE and remained in isolate from Africans till the around the Holocene. -An even more nuanced population that provided deep ancestry for both Africans AND west Eurasians.
Lazaridis' phylogeny in the Dzuduana paper abides by the former. But the second explanation gives much more insight and is more parsimonious from my point of view. Moreover consider the fact that the defacto non-Eurasian population for YEARS (the Yoruba) are confirmed to having ancestry from North Africans. How did researchers miss this? -easy we/they assumed initial OOA affinity for north Africans whether or not they were indigenous.
heres a complete breakdown:
You wan't to know why Africans are so genetically diverse, and lack mutational load? It's because Africans for the most part managed to keep a relatively large founding popuation but more importantly.... because of Admixture. As you can see by the chart populations that have a deep history of mixture AND a decent population size (non-bottleneck.) has more heterogeneity. The Idea that Africans (or humans for that matter) branched off and stayed put for tens of thousands of years needs to be eradicated.. The closest population in Africa to doing that were the khosian, who as an ethnic group among Africans score the second highest for SROH (runs of homozygousity) only trailing the HADZA. SOURCE
Now lets consider the big picture. We have multiple branches of ancestry in Africa; below's an image for simplicity We can be looking at a scenario where the Green node can be ancient north Africans BEFORE receiving UP European admixture and contributing to Eurasians. You have to keep in mind 2 major things though. *West Eurasians have variable degrees of African ancestry and *Taforalt very most likely have a decent amount of very ancient European ancestry. So when you do something like run the above East African, West African, and Non Eurasian through ADMIXTURE for example. you'll see Non Africans will form their own clade first and east Africans will show minor non- African signals. Then East And west Africans will split but East Africans will be closer to Non-Africans. And Taforalt being related to the Green component will look exactly like we see now IRL.
Right now this Idea might appear far fetched but I want you to go ahead and check out the pairwise FST scores for Taforalt and IAM. If the AFRICAN predecessors of Taforalt truly drifted towards Eurasians and branched off last... Why is a currently Eurasian mixed population so divergent from Eurasians who lack notable North African Ancestry?
-My answer is that "ANA" is all but one Stream of Ancient AFRICAN ancestry, and it is one that contributed to west Eurasian ancestry early. You'll see it more clearly as SSA loses it's genetic relevance with more a.DNA
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This paper is bs. The authors admit that "We found no evidence for migration of Near Eastern farmers or any ancient episodes involving Eurasian backflow. " If there is no archaeological evidence of a backflow, R1 did not come from Eurasia. This is just another article supporting white supremacist ideas that R1 V88 is Eurasian.
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V-88 in Africa came into the Sahel and Nile Valley with Arabs....considering the paucity of J1 in Sahelians....dont buy it.
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Tukuler
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posted
I'm sure the Ouldeme for one ain't buying that book.
Without a team, does Shriner provide a HG table comparable to D'Atanasio? The one I peeked is paltry. 4 columns X 11 rows. But it may be just a clip of Table 5 Chad uniparentals from whole genome.
Shriner sticks to the 21 ancestries developed with Baker & Rotimi last year. Not that that's invalid. But unsupervised runs might've brought out Sahel specific a/o related ancestries.
One set of Sudan Arabs is 33% E Afr, 28% Arabian. The other set is 47% E Afr, 49% Arabian. This is confounded by Cushitics partially defining both East African and Arabian ancestries. There's no row presenting Shuwa Arabs (Nigeria, Cameroon, Chad). None for Chad Cow Arabs either.
quote:Originally posted by beyoku: V-88 in Africa came into the Sahel and Nile Valley with Arabs....considering the paucity of J1 in Sahelians....dont buy it.
Fair enough. I haven't really brushed up all that much on R1b, to be honest.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: I'm sure the Ouldeme for one ain't buying that book.
Without a team, does Shriner provide a HG table comparable to D'Atanasio? The one I peeked is paltry. 4 columns X 11 rows. But it may be just a clip of Table 5 Chad uniparentals from whole genome.
Shriner sticks to the 21 ancestries developed with Baker & Rotimi last year. Not that that's invalid. But unsupervised runs might've brought out Sahel specific a/o related ancestries.
One set of Sudan Arabs is 33% E Afr, 28% Arabian. The other set is 47% E Afr, 49% Arabian. This is confounded by Cushitics partially defining both East African and Arabian ancestries. There's no row presenting Shuwa Arabs (Nigeria, Cameroon, Chad). None for Chad Cow Arabs either.
This emphasizes why the conclusion of this study is hard to roll with.
To play devil's Advocate: maybe they're trying to suggest that Shuwa Arabs sometimes referred to as Baggara, brought V88 from the Sahara... As opposed to actual Arabs? To my knowledge the Shuwa Arabs aren't that West Eurasian, so maybe we're conflating genetic labels with cultural ones and Arabization in this context is a misnomer.
This can be further evidenced by the, highlighting the Hausa and their lack of Eurasian influence... but I'm just giving the benefit of the doubt.
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Tukuler
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posted
Querying D'Atanasio ST 4 reveals more reliable conclusions to me.
Tassili originated yet Atlantic speaking Cameroon Fulbe. They display 6 way V88 diversity including possibly very old V4963*. Another 'Niger-Congo'group, Adamawa speaking Cameroon Moundang, also carry V4963*. Interesting for something introduced via Africans who absorbed 14th century(?) Arabian blood.
But Cameroon's Chadic Ouldeme are the hands down V88 frequency champs. 95% Shuwa Cow Arabs have only one type. V1589* @ 33%. Three Chadics have as much or more. Mada have the most, 40%.
Siwi and Yoruba alone share V4759.
For now I'd think V88 a Chadic thing. Except for an older generation in 'N-C's. So it was probably locale driven, permeating both. Maybe along the old as Neolithic Bilma Trail. A route connecting MegaChad to Fezzan lakes. From there to N African shores' Sardinian contacts?
In a heavily oversampled 1194 Sardinians only M18 and V35. No more than 1.51%. This could indicate mass immigration to and into Africa, pending multidisciplinary conformation. Heading south and reaching the Fezzan. A south continuance to Lake Tchad. An east split to Tibesti.
I didn't see any possibilities from M78 carrying Levantines or Arabians.
quote: But Cameroon's Chadic Ouldeme are the hands down V88 frequency champs. 95% Shuwa Cow Arabs have only one type. V1589* @ 33%. Three Chadics have as much or more. Mada have the most, 40%.
As we suspected many years ago.
People need to take in account the Haji. No study considered this EVER.
The peopling of the last Green Sahara revealed by high-coverage resequencing of trans-Saharan patrilineages, by D’Atanasio, Trombetta, Bonito, et al., Genome Biology (2018) 19:20.
People need to take in account the Haji. No study considered this EVER.
Can you elaborate?
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Tukuler
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D'Atanasio Supplementary Table 4 queries.
Testing E-M78 carriers as part of male migrants introducing R-V88. No Levantines nor Arabians w/M78 have V88.
Yemini boxed in blue. Northern Africans boxed in orange. Northern and oasis Egyptians have same M78 as Yeminis (intersect of blue & orange). Northern Egyptian V88 is V6255 and later generations. Egy oasis V88 is deeper than Egy northern V88. Oasis Egyptian V88 is V1589* and later generations. Siwa and Yoruba share V4759 exclusively. Oasis Egyptians share E-M78 with Sicily, Sardinia, and Greece. Western/Central Africa V88 carriers have M78 not associated with Eastern Africa, Near East, nor Europe.
posted
Even if no modern Levanite/Arab populations have it, what if it was a ghost population from the Near East? If it's a subclade of R, somewhere down the line there had to have been some Eastern inflow right?
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Tukuler
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I'm unsure current MidEasters don't have it. My query was designed for M78 V88 concurrence.
Check data outside of D'Atanasio for Levant/Arabia R-V88 and which particular subclades.
quote:Originally posted by Oshun: Even if no modern Levanite/Arab populations have it, what if it was a ghost population from the Near East? If it's a subclade of R, somewhere down the line there had to have been some Eastern inflow right?
Why are you looking for ghost populations outside of Africa?
The only mystery is which population in Africa spread V88.
We have enough evidence for where African V88 most likely came from and when with Accuracy.
What we need clarification on is if V88 later dispersed from North east Africa, Chad, or Cameroon and with which ethnic group.
-V88 doesn't seem linked to Chadic laguages. -It doesn't seem linked to traceable "Eurasian" Admixture. -It's most diverse in Cameroon then Egypt, Siwa. -It Has the highest frequency in North Cameroon.
Here's some puzzle pieces: villabruna a southern European was V88 and U5b and is the oldest Carrier of both iirc. U5b is sparsely dispersed in SSA, but I believe the highest frequency in Africa is the Siwa Oasis. Egypt. Our eldest U5b Carrier in Africa was 4000 years old, Djehutynakht. African V88 coalescent age with Sardinian V88 and A-m13 is about 8.5 kya.
So, at least in africa we have one of those cases where a mt haplogroup (U5b) is clearly linked with a paternal Haplogroup (V88). With that Assumption we can guess that V88 have been in Egypt for atleast 4000 years. Which gives us a margin of about 4.5 thousand years for earlier dispersal. Couple that with the fact that deeply diverged V88 lineages are in Siwa, I can estimate that Egypt was one of the earlier terminals for V88.
But did it disperse from there?
I don't think it did, but rather from an area more south-west, possibly Ancient Libya, Niger or Northern chad. I'm thinking of a population that might harbor M78, A-m13, E-M2 and V88 at a time period in history.
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quote:Originally posted by Oshun: Even if no modern Levanite/Arab populations have it, what if it was a ghost population from the Near East? If it's a subclade of R, somewhere down the line there had to have been some Eastern inflow right?
Why are you looking for ghost populations outside of Africa?
I said "If it's a subclade of R, somewhere down the line there had to have been some Eastern inflow right?" I still don't understand how the haplogroup's ancestor R or R1 would come from OOA but V88 signals at no point a back migration.
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quote:Originally posted by Oshun: I said "If it's a subclade of R, somewhere down the line there had to have been some Eastern inflow right?" I still don't understand how the haplogroup's ancestor R or R1 would come from OOA but V88 signals at no point a back migration.
Why do you assume R didn't come out of Africa? The European exclusives are young, R1a is in Africa and P is rare everywhere but I have seen it in African and European Americans. The ancestor to P, K is in central Africa.
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quote:Originally posted by Oshun: Even if no modern Levanite/Arab populations have it, what if it was a ghost population from the Near East? If it's a subclade of R, somewhere down the line there had to have been some Eastern inflow right?
Why are you looking for ghost populations outside of Africa?
I said "If it's a subclade of R, somewhere down the line there had to have been some Eastern inflow right?" I still don't understand how the haplogroup's ancestor R or R1 would come from OOA but V88 signals at no point a back migration.
Oshun... African V88 coalesces with Sardinian V88 at the time at which V88 enters Africa. There's no need for a ghost population, we already know where it comes from.
quote:Outside Africa, both A3-M13 and R-V88 harbour sub-lineages geographically restricted to the island of Sardinia and both seem to indicate ancient trans -Mediterranean contacts. The phylogeography of A3- M13 suggests that the direction of the movement was from Africa to Sardinia, while R-V88 topology indi -cates a Europe-to-Africa migration.Indeed,our data suggest a European origin of R-V88 about 12.3 kya, considering both the presence of two Sardinian R-V88 basal clades (R-M18 and R-V35) and that the V88 marker arose in the R-M343 background, which in turn includes Near-Eastern/European lineages [52]
-D'Atanasio
The OOA population isn't the mystery. It's clearly trans Mediterranean.. Not Near-Eastern. What's unknown is who (culturally and autosomally) spread V88 within Africa.
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quote:Originally posted by Oshun: I said "If it's a subclade of R, somewhere down the line there had to have been some Eastern inflow right?" I still don't understand how the haplogroup's ancestor R or R1 would come from OOA but V88 signals at no point a back migration.
Why do you assume R didn't come out of Africa? The European exclusives are young, R1a is in Africa and P is rare everywhere but I have seen it in African and European Americans. The ancestor to P, K is in central Africa.
Regardless of all the evidence already speaking against this being a possibilty.. the shear (un)likelyhood that a Haplogroup separated by hundreds of point mutations from the base mutation DE shared by Africans and Eurasians speaks against R being African. Also consider how high V88 is in frequency Compared to other R lineages across the Entire continent. We wouldn't see such lopsided topology on the continent if R arose there.
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quote:Originally posted by Oshun: I said "If it's a subclade of R, somewhere down the line there had to have been some Eastern inflow right?" I still don't understand how the haplogroup's ancestor R or R1 would come from OOA but V88 signals at no point a back migration.
Why do you assume R didn't come out of Africa? The European exclusives are young, R1a is in Africa and P is rare everywhere but I have seen it in African and European Americans. The ancestor to P, K is in central Africa.
Regardless of all the evidence already speaking against this being a possibilty.. the shear (un)likelyhood that a Haplogroup separated by hundreds of point mutations from the base mutation DE shared by Africans and Eurasians speaks against R being African. Also consider how high V88 is in frequency Compared to other R lineages across the Entire continent. We wouldn't see such lopsided topology on the continent if R arose there.
Elmaestro stop making stuff up. Point mutations don't prove anything by itself. Human Beings practice specific cultures and speak specific languages. Hypothesized population movements based on genetic evidence without collateral evidence is nothing but conjecture.
Although the mtDNA and Y chromosome evidence of diversity is undisputed, a major drawback of this knowledge base is the absence of anthropological knowledge supporting the conclusions reached by genetics in relation to the study of evolutionary history and population relationships (Tripathy et al. 2008).
Some of the problems researchers note in relation to using molecular evidence solely to describe population relations are 1) the different coalescence ages assigned the same haplotypes and haplogroups by different researchers which “are vastly different among different studies” , 2) studies that demonstrate large confidence intervals that make the conclusion equivocal ; 3) conclusions based on small samples ; and 4) population affinities not supported by historical, archaeological and linguistic evidences (Tripathy et al.. 2008). To remedy this situation Tripathy et al. (2008) believes their should be more “anthropological insights into population structure” when discussing population studies. His view is held by many who now advocate the use of archaeogenetics to support population movements.
Ray and Excoffier (2009) argue that to build a reliable model of population dispersal researchers must combine genetic data and archaeological (or historical and linguistic) data . Using the method of research advocated by Ray and Excoffier demands that we reconsider the origin of the Dravidian and Aryan populations of India. The methods of Ray and Excoffier (2009) are in conformity with basic archaeogenetic research methods. The Archaeogentic method suggest that coupling the archaeological data with genetic data is a powerful way to infer population migration .
Where is the archaeological evidence supporting a back migration from Eurasia to Africa?
Absent archaeological evidence of a back migration nullifies the theory V88 was introduced to Africa by Eurasians.
References: Ray N, Excoffier L.2009. Inferring past demography using spatially explicit population genetic models. Human Biology, 81 (2-3): 141-157.
Tripathy V, Nirmala A, Reddy BM. 2008. Trends in Molecular Anthropological Studies in India. Int J Hum Genet, 8(1-2): 1-20.
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Tukuler
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quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro: What's unknown is who (culturally and autosomally) spread V88 within Africa.
.
Consider V2197 8700 years ago in Tyrrhenean Europe. All African V88 descends from V2197.
First it's V4963 up to 7800 years old. It's specific to two 'Niger-Congo' pops. Then, bam, V1589 proliferates maybe 57 5600 years ago. A mostly north Cameroon local V1589* base of peoples. And mostly Chad located 5600 year originated V6255. Also a near coastal east-west V4759 of 4700 years ago.
OK People, culture, industry, amd economy of • 6700 BCE Sardinia (and why R and no other males migrate) • 5800 BCE Bilma central Sahara • 3700 BCE Lake Chad The late Early Holocene thru the Mid Holocene.
Not offhand familiar with Tyrrhenian prehistory. Help! SWAG: Mediterranean Neolithic Cardial? Anyway, there'd be some time and slow movement amidsts Gafsians. Within 1000 years easy, contact and fusion with Saharo-Sudanese. Think Tassili Oua-N-Ahaggar, Adrar Bous and Ouan Muhuggiag. Then Sahara dryout begins and becomes near complete, Now a back north split happens in the Bronze Age.
Recap north->south movement: The Tyrrhenian baggage probably lost quick to the Gafsian. It wouldn't show at all a little later in Gafsians. Probably not even a trace of it left when the bulk of Saharo-Sudanese meet and mingle.
I don't think one population spread V88 in Africa. There could be up to three 'separate' important expansions. Doubt there ever was a singular R1b-V88 ethnic group. Just maybe so back in parental Sardinia. Especially not once out of Tunisia and on to Sahara.
Egypt has V1589*, possibly early predynastic. It's V6255 is pre-proto dynastic. Both go back to V1589. V1589 cannot explain Tyrrhenian and central Sahara V4963.
That's my guesses. The usual caveats apply. You know, inserting current data into history and prehistory. D'Atanasio chosen populations. Whatever else.
posted
@Clyde_Winters. Y'know sometimes I wonder if you even believe what you say. Where in Africa did the ability to effectively digest lactose (Cows milk) originate. And when did it spread to Europe? Where was transcontinental human contact to (exchange these genes) first made?
@Tukuler. As far as Eurasians are concerned I don't think it was much of a "Migration" into Africa. Moreso possibly a minor Settlement somewhere in North Africa to the involvement of some martime Mediterraneans. Possibly the advent of Cyrenaica. However V88 was the haplogroup successfully carried along by Africans.
Taking a deeper look into What we have aDNA wise. From Taforalt to the Neolithic Morroccans we see minor changes possibly indicative of a minor Neighboring European geneflow going into the Neolithic.
If you recall I previously shown that IAM are the best representatives as a parent to the Yoruba. Which given the time period makes sense.
But here's where I get lost. The extreme frequency in the Haplogroup moving south has to be significant in someway. Either speaking to a late migration or Drift.. perhaps a bottleneck from a relatively Isolated population in Central Africa. Or maybe even a settlement from a nomadic group??
I would expect the Topoplogy for V88's distribution among the people of Niger to be a bit better if the V88 in Africa was situated in bilma for a later expansion. Like you said a single Ethnic group probably wasn't at the helm of V88's expansion. I think that Capsian movement east was more relevant to egyptian V88 than Cameroonian V88.
...more insight coming.
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Just a note that African lactase intolerance is older than the Lactase intolerance in Europe.
The time range in Africa is upwards of 7,000 years. In Europe it is only upwards of 3,000 years. And overall in humans the range is upwards of 10,000.
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Tukuler
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The TMRCA of T-13910 in Sudanese Fulani * _LD method = 6,475 (95% CI 5,875-7,100) * Rho method = 6,134 (±682) and 10,735 (±1,193)
Thus the age of Fulani LP predates all others having it due to T-13910 which supposedly originated with "European Caucasian".
The bulk of European/Caucasian scientists seek to disguise this in terms of Fulani admixture from Caucasians but since ancestral Fulani were the first to have it, the fact is more like the reverse. Caucasians who spread this factor in EurAsia are admixed from ancestral Fulani.
Haven't looked into it since. Precision updating solicited, please.
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Sure. After all Siwa is firmly within Gafsian bounds per that map.
Bilma point well taken. Though it's not so far from Oua n Muhuggiag. Remember that mummy boy from there.
Again, I'll think NW Tenere. Tassili Oua-N-Ahaggar. Adrar Bous is just east of it. Tassili n'Ajjer is a bit to its north.
Can we hang old ass Fulani V88 on that hook? Ah ohn't know. Could they of got it from Moundangn ???
I don't think Niger remained conducive to the economies of the carriers. For them no doubt toward Lake Chad was looking better century by century. New peoples came along since at least the camel and the fall of Garamantia. I mean the taMazight kel confederacies west of the Teda-Daza confederacies. Tuareg only have the near ubiquitous V1589* and that at 5%. It's like you said.
Yoruba also have a rarer V88. Its highest frequency is in Siwa. Ouarzazate in MOROCCO have it, but less than Yoruba do. Starting in Siwa, the three points make a big transSaharan V.
Except for Siwa, iMazighen have no V88 diversity. Ok, Mzab and Sardinia, two subclades each. Cameroon Fula have the most diversity, 6. Ouldeme and Siwa, 5, follow those Fula. The rest, Fali @ 4 excluded, are also rans. All other peoples with less than 9% V88 have no diversity.
Oh, Tunisia and Sardinia are close by. Way closer than Sardinia and Naples. Closer than Sardinia and Sicily.
What you say about Neolithic Morocco. It's inline with that map's Mediterranean Neolithic. Iirc the north point of Morocco had cardial workshops.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: [B] Just a note that African lactase intolerance is older than the Lactase intolerance in Europe.[B]
The time range in Africa is upwards of 7,000 years. In Europe it is only upwards of 3,000 years. And overall in humans the range is upwards of 10,000.
The age actually doesn't matter.. I worded the question in a specific way for a reason. For instance I am aware that the fulani had carried the eldest instance of LCT in africa. But as for "collateral evidence" the story doesn't end there does it?
Posts: 1781 | From: New York | Registered: Jul 2016
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Just a note that African lactase intolerance is older than the Lactase intolerance in Europe.[b]
The time range in Africa is upwards of 7,000 years. In Europe it is only upwards of 3,000 years. And overall in humans the range is upwards of 10,000.
The age actually doesn't matter.. I worded the question in a specific way for a reason. For instance I am aware that the fulani had carried the eldest instance of LCT in africa. But as for "collateral evidence" the story doesn't end there does it?
Like many of these papers, they word things to be misleading IMO. So I just stated the facts clearly to avoid misunderstanding.
quote: [b]For example, they found the variant associated with lactase persistence in Europeans, T-13910, in central and northern African pastoralist groups, suggesting that these groups may have mixed historically with a non-African population. The age of this genetic mutation is estimated to be 5,000-12,300 years old, coinciding with the origins of cattle domestication in North Africa and the Middle East. And a variant, G-13915, found at high frequencies in the Arabian Peninsula, and also present in northern Kenya and northern Sudan, dates to roughly 5,000 years ago, around the time that archaeological evidence suggests that camels were domesticated in the region.
Another variant, G-13907, was identified in the northern reaches of Sudan and Kenya as well as in Ethiopia. The researchers speculate that the mutation may have arisen in Cushitic populations in Ethiopia, who later migrated into Kenya and Sudan in the last 5,000 years.
They observed still another variant, C-14010, in Tanzania and Kenya as well as in southern Africa. This variant is believed to have arisen 3,000 to 7,000 years ago, a timing in line with the migration of pastoralists from North Africa into East Africa. The researchers' analysis suggests that this variant spread more recently into southern African, perhaps only in the last 1,000 years.
"We're starting to paint a picture of convergent evolution," Tishkoff said. "Our results are showing different mutations arising in different places that are under selection and rising to high frequencies and then reintroduced by migration to new areas and new populations."
Even with the new variants the Penn team identified, there were still patterns that the genetic data couldn't explain. Some groups that appeared to be able to digest milk lacked any genetic sign of this ability. The Hadza, nearly half of whom had the lactase persistence trait, are one example.
For example in the above they mention mixture with Europeans but fail to note that European traits for Lactase intolerance are far younger than those in Africa.
Not to mention this paper from a while back....
quote: Testing the Hypothesis of an African Cattle Contribution in Southern European Breeds (H2).
Our extensive sampling across North Africa reveals that the T1 haplogroup is almost fixed across this region (Fig. 2). Nevertheless, 63 different sequences with the T1 motif are observed, producing a total nucleotide diversity in North Africa (1.76%, SD = 0.15) slightly higher than observed in the Middle East (1.65%, SD = 0.14) or in Anatolia (1.48%, SD = 0.13), where all four major haplogroups are found. These observations, together with the fact that T1 haplotypes are very rare in the Middle East and Anatolia, appear consistent with the previously suggested hypothesis (7, 11) that African cattle were independently domesticated. This hypothesis, however, also would imply that Northern African and Near Eastern aurochsen were genetically differentiated even without major barriers limiting their dispersion (with the former being mainly T1-like and the latter being non-T1-like) or that the African and Near Eastern domestication processes were very different (with the former producing a much more intense bottleneck than the latter). As far as genetic data are concerned, the simpler hypothesis of an introduction in Africa of few T1-like cattle domesticated in the Near East, and their subsequent demographic expansion and genetic diversification appears more parsimonious.
People need to take in account the Haji. No study considered this EVER.
Can you elaborate?
All muslims are supposed to complete this pillar at least once in their lifetime, so it's bovines that Africans from West Africa also moved to these places. The most famous travel to Hajj was by Mansa Musa.
posted
I'm not at all surprised by the findings of this paper. Not only was this prediction made by Keita years ago but there are two major hints that Arabs were the source. For one, R1b is also found in low frequency through central and northern Sudan from Arabic speakers to even Beja people. Of course there is no historical evidence for a European presence in these areas to account for them as the source. And lastly we see evidence of early underived R1 in Southwest Asia. Abstract A high-resolution, Y-chromosome analysis using 46 binary markers has been carried out in two Jordan populations, one from the metropolitan area of Amman and the other from the Dead Sea, an area geographically isolated. Comparisons with neighboring populations showed that whereas the sample from Amman did not significantly differ from their Levantine neighbors, the Dead Sea sample clearly behaved as a genetic outlier in the region. Its high R1*-M173 frequency (40%) has until now only been found in northern Cameroonian samples. This contrasts with the comparatively low presence of J representatives (9%), which is the modal clade in Middle Eastern populations, including Amman. The Dead Sea sample also showed a high presence of E3b3a-M34 lineages (31%), which is only comparable to that found in Ethiopians. Although ancient and recent ties with sub-Saharan and eastern Africans cannot be discarded, it seems that isolation, strong drift, and/or founder effects are responsible for the anomalous Y-chromosome pool of this population. These results demonstrate that, at a fine scale, the smooth, continental clines detected for several Y-chromosome markers are often disrupted by genetically divergent populations. ---Flores et al. 2005
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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@Djehuti you have to critically look at the coalesced ages between populations in and outside of Africa. Plus as per your source and as Beyoku states above the disparity in the presence of J and V88 is noteworthy.
Remember the times when people, particularly Afrocentrics would claim Eurasians, especially Europeans would seek influence, knowledge, refuge and culture from early African groups. Look at E1a, V13, M2, A-M13. All this is now is genetic evidence to back these claims.
I have a hard time wondering how some of us can beleive nomads can meet a European (for example) and only pass down African DNA, and never receive some Eurasian genes from whatever exchange.
@Ish gebor With the Hajj, Are you relating to V88 distribution or the transferring of LCT genes?
Posts: 1781 | From: New York | Registered: Jul 2016
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^ Yes I understand that Sudan has a different distribution than Chad which is why I never said Sudan was the source. Remember that there were multiple waves of migrations of Arabs not just one or two.
The TMRCA of T-13910 in Sudanese Fulani * _LD method = 6,475 (95% CI 5,875-7,100) * Rho method = 6,134 (±682) and 10,735 (±1,193)
Thus the age of Fulani LP predates all others having it due to T-13910 which supposedly originated with "European Caucasian".
The bulk of European/Caucasian scientists seek to disguise this in terms of Fulani admixture from Caucasians but since ancestral Fulani were the first to have it, the fact is more like the reverse. Caucasians who spread this factor in EurAsia are admixed from ancestral Fulani.
Haven't looked into it since. Precision updating solicited, please.
Interesting though not surprising. I wonder if there is any connection to the findings below:
Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2005 Jun 7; [Epub ahead of print]
Prehistoric contacts over the Straits of Gibraltar indicated by genetic analysis of Iberian Bronze Age cattle.
C. Anderung et al. The geographic situation of the Iberian Peninsula makes it a natural link between Europe and North Africa. However, it is a matter of debate to what extent African influences via the Straits Gibraltar have affected Iberia's prehistoric development. Because early African pastoralist communities were dedicated to cattle breeding, a possible means to detect prehistoric African-Iberian contacts might be to analyze the origin of cattle breeds on the Iberian Peninsula. Some contemporary Iberian cattle breeds show a mtDNA haplotype, T1, that is characteristic to African breeds, generally explained as being the result of the Muslim expansion of the 8th century A.D., and of modern imports. To test a possible earlier African influence, we analyzed mtDNA of Bronze Age cattle from the Portalon cave at the Atapuerca site in northern Spain. Although the majority of samples showed the haplotype T3 that dominates among European breeds of today, the T1 haplotype was found in one specimen radiocarbon dated 1800 calibrated years B.C. Accepting T1 as being of African origin, this result indicates prehistoric African-Iberian contacts and lends support to archaeological finds linking early African and Iberian cultures. We also found a wild ox haplotype in the Iberian Bronze Age sample, reflecting local hybridization or backcrossing or that aurochs were hunted by these farming cultures.Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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