Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
In the push to Levantize pharaonic Egyptian history Amenophis III will be the next in the legitimate Levant origin of Egypt myopic "hypothesis".
Since becoming a nation ancient Egypt was more or less cosmopolitan. Its southern kingdom cultural political founders enforced sovereignty and their civilization onto peoples further north down the Nile. The Narmer Palette 'press release' is evidence of a variety of types from southern the up Nile related founders to 'Fayoum to delta' subjects given their own kingdom.
New Kingdom last century of the Great 18th Dynasty pharaoh Amenophis III's CODIS autosomes published in 2010 have never been lab analyzed since DNA Tribes (RIP) in fear of what they undoubtedly show, relations to today's living African peoples so much more than to other ancestries in a country attracting immigrants from all directions due to its most highly successful economy status back then (and its new imperial attitude).
Will the upcoming article lead authored by one of the original "Hawass Armarna mummies team" use those autosomes in their ethno-geographic (whew, such a long way to say racial) conclusions?
Don't be surprised to see eggs in the narrow uniparental baskets promoted to the point of ignoring the much wider biparental cart.
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
The eight recovered Amenophis III's CODIS forensic STRs indicate him closest to northeast Africans from beyond the Black Nile to Sudan and on to southern Egypt.
He also has a definite trace of what today is south Levant ancestry. About no more than 1 of 8 great grand parents level, no way enough to justify turning him into some Beduin, Palestinian, or Druze kinda guy.
Amenophis III has three allele values not found today, per popSTR (link), amounting to 3 out of 16 great great grand parents.
Amenophis III's deep inner African roots are evident in alleles of high frequency in San, Biaka, and Mbuti. There's a straight connection to Kenyan BaNtu else BaNtu Somalis of today.
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
The 5 map colors correlate to the 5 tabled 'clusters' above.
RED: Somali; Sudani; "Beladi" ORANGE: NE Kenya Bantu; Mbuti YELLOW: San; Biaka BLUE: Israeli Arabs; Yoruba; Mzabi BLACK South Africa Bantu; Senegal Mandenka
posted
The late 18th dynasty has some of the most well known personalities from the Nile Valley. And of course with that comes more distortion.
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In the push to Levantize pharaonic Egyptian history Amenophis III will be the next in the legitimate Levant origin of Egypt myopic "hypothesis".
Since becoming a nation ancient Egypt was more or less cosmopolitan. Its southern kingdom cultural political founders enforced sovereignty and their civilization onto peoples further north down the Nile. The Narmer Palette 'press release' is evidence of a variety of types from southern the up Nile related founders to 'Fayoum to delta' subjects given their own kingdom.
New Kingdom last century of the Great 18th Dynasty pharaoh Amenophis III's CODIS autosomes published in 2010 have never been lab analyzed since DNA Tribes (RIP) in fear of what they undoubtedly show, relations to today's living African peoples so much more than to other ancestries in a country attracting immigrants from all directions due to its most highly successful economy status back then (and its new imperial attitude).
Will the upcoming article lead authored by one of the original "Hawass Armarna mummies team" use those autosomes in their ethno-geographic (whew, such a long way to say racial) conclusions?
Don't be surprised to see eggs in the narrow uniparental baskets promoted to the point of ignoring the much wider biparental cart.
What's funny is that originally, the theories of Levantine origins was based on Akhenaten's maternal ancestry i.e. Tiye and most notably her father Yuya whose blonde haired mummy was presumed to be a Mitanni or Hurrian even though Tiye herself as black skinned woman was said to represent a black Bedouin type of Syria.
Now it appears they've shifted the angle to Akhenaten's paternity with Amenhotep III being possibly being of Levantine extraction. Again, I find this rather odd considering the southern origins of this family in the Thebald. Hell, even Tiye's family hails from Akhmim, Upper Egypt.
You're right to bring up the DNA Tribes autosomal findings. This is what makes these claims even more suspicious. I believe the Egyptologist Ahmed Saleh warned about the SCA keeping the mummy genomic analysis so guarded. He said a time would come when certain interest groups could "make" the Egyptians ancestry whatever they wanted without proper scrutiny. I know Hawass is not in charge anymore however his cronies still run much of the operations in the SCA.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Mane, these guys are crazy and don't realize what they're actually doing is making a case for strong inner African biology in the Levant with all this roorag going back to Syrian Tiye with her almond eye sassy imperial self.
Yuya Tiye Amenhotep III Ramesses III
They're playing musical chairs and don't even know it.
=-=
Right now the political move is for Arabics to chill out with Israel. The cultural thing in Egypt is protest against Ashke Israelit Wonder Woman starring as Macedonian last Cleopatra in a hot damn movie.?.
Science cannot flourish w/o government. The report will be in line w/politics "chill it with Israel" Levantine origin of Egyptian royals and nobles.
Arabics run the AU and at home use the word slave as the ethnic identifier of Afican black people. They gain nothing if in support of African origins. Like the Democrats in the USA they know they got the blacks in pocket so why throw 'em more than a bone now and then?
=-= Amenophis III STaRs shine three unique alleles only * CSF1PO 6 in San * D7S820 6 in biAka * FGA 31.2 in NE Kenya baNtu
DNA Tribes nor anyone else pointed out these exacting facts This is work I did of my own algorithm employing the online popSTR tool and tables from peer reviewed publications datum. No genomics professionals offer this. Only me.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: The late 18th dynasty has some of the most well known personalities from the Nile Valley. And of course with that comes more distortion.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: What [ain't even] funny is that originally, the theories of Levantine origins was based on Akhenaten's maternal ancestry i.e. Tiye and most notably her father Yuya whose blonde haired mummy was presumed to be a Mitanni or Hurrian even though Tiye herself a black skinned woman was said to represent a black skinned Bedouin of Syria.
Now it appears they've shifted the angle to Akhenaten's paternity with Amenhotep III being possibly being of Levantine extraction. Again, I find this rather odd considering the southern origins of this family in the Thebald. Hell, even Tiye's family hails from Akhmim, Upper Egypt.
You're right to bring up [your] DNA Tribes [inspired] autosomal findings. This is what makes these claims even more suspicious. The I believe the Egyptologist Ahmed Saleh warned about the SCA keeping the mummy genomic analysis so guarded. He said a time would come when certain interest groups could "make" the Egyptians ancestry whatever they wanted without proper scrutiny. I know Hawass is not in charge anymore however his cronies still run much of the operations in the SCA.
posted
But again, Egyptology as an institution was founded on anti-blackness. So none of this should be surprising in the least. There is nothing objective or scientific about it.
Every few years they have to keep pushing propaganda to keep white ancient Egypt in the minds of the public. And the late 18th dynasty is one of the key focal points for this propaganda. Whether it be the so-called bust of Nefertiti, to the reconstruction of Tutankhamun or now to the DNA history of Amenhotep III. They have to keep repeating these lies so that the public will begin to accept them as fact.
Unfortunately, African scholarship is considered "underground" in that it does not have the widespread access to publication and media that can begin to challenge this nonsense. And even amateurs on forums like this can poke holes in this nonsense easily. But they don't care as long as they can simply keep rehashing the same lies over and over to drown out any opposition.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
An oft repeated lie becomes the truth though never the facts!
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Egyptology as an institution was founded on anti-blackness. So none of this
Jean-François Champollion marks the beginning of modern Egyptology
What is the old Egyptology, if that exists?
The word Egyptology was created in 1841 However earlier historians, exploration and travel writings include:
Herodotus, Strabo, Diodorus Siculus, Manetho
Abdul Latif al-Baghdadi al-Maqrizi
Claude Sicard, Benoît de Maillet, Frederic Louis Norden, Richard Pococke, John Greaves Athanasius Kircher
Mémoires sur l'Égypte by 160 civilian scholars and scientists (savants), many from the Institut de France,published during the Campaign of Napoleon Bonaparte in the Years 1798 and 1799
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Wait... OP and Djehuti... Why are we looking at Tuts paternal ancestry when judging by the evidence his paternal ancestry likely more recently came from central Africa?? At most you can say the paternal ancestry could potentially (whether V88 or M269) "Europeanize" the Amarnas but the Levantine Afinity lies primarily with the maternal haplogroup.
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^ The alleged maternal lineage for the Amarnas is hg K which was found in late Neolithic remains of Morocco and today has a significant frequency in Ethiopia. As for R-V88, it derives from R-M173 which was also found in the Levant.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Unfortunately, African scholarship is considered "underground" in that it does not have the widespread access to publication and media that can begin to challenge this nonsense.
And yet underground is where seeds germinate, their roots spread out to take in nutrients before their shoots sprout to the surface. The media and its lies is like asphalt being paved over grass, but as someone said "You could cover the whole earth with asphalt, but sooner or later green grass would break through."
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Egyptology as an institution was founded on anti-blackness. So none of this
Jean-François Champollion marks the beginning of modern Egyptology
What is the old Egyptology, if that exists?
The word Egyptology was created in 1841 However earlier historians, exploration and travel writings include:
Herodotus, Strabo, Diodorus Siculus, Manetho
Abdul Latif al-Baghdadi al-Maqrizi
Claude Sicard, Benoît de Maillet, Frederic Louis Norden, Richard Pococke, John Greaves Athanasius Kircher
Mémoires sur l'Égypte by 160 civilian scholars and scientists (savants), many from the Institut de France,published during the Campaign of Napoleon Bonaparte in the Years 1798 and 1799
Ok, I see what you mean. But did these older "scholars" study Egypt in terms of archeology, anthropology linguistics etc., or were they merely observers and direct witnesses?
It's interesting what Wiki-authors have to say about this.
"Egyptology (from Egypt and Greek -λογία, -logia. Arabic: علم المصريات) is the study of ancient Egyptian history, language, literature, religion, architecture and art from the 5th millennium BC until the end of its native religious practices in the 4th century AD. A practitioner of the discipline is an "Egyptologist"." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EgyptologyPosts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Stro Whatever, but it's right there in the STaRs. Autosomal STRs catch mommy AND daddy. Best used in conjunction with uniparentals but superior to either in revealing relations whether personal or geographic populationwise.
Lemme see if I can find one o dem 4 generation charts showing how much ethnic information is lost following the two narrow uniparental paths no matter how far back you go.
And what's so sorry bouta Amenophis III thread? He'll be in Gad et al's new in-book article. Will he locate the already known alleles to populations or will he, like in the Ramses report, just derive a MSY SNP via Y-STRs (i.e., give us a tree instead a marker)? Another Whit Athey jobby, when's last time he updated his trees?
BTW I got no idea what recent means/entails.
Andari2018 has six tables of various Lebanese populations. I can run any Armarna against that battery for Levantine affinity autosomal STRs.
=-=
DJ Today we know the olden days R1* in Cameroon is not what's in the Levant. The splat is removed now that we know it's V88. Per Kivisild2017 Fig 7, Levant has Z2105 and Z93. Those latter two by no means closely related. Tip o da brim ta 42Tribes. The other Big R (M479) I got no idea about him. Help! https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00439-017-1770-2#citeas << heh heh >>
quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro: Wait... OP and Djehuti... Why are we looking at Tuts paternal ancestry when judging by the evidence his paternal ancestry likely more recently came from central Africa?? At most you can say the paternal ancestry could potentially (whether V88 or M269) "Europeanize" the Amarnas but the Levantine Afinity lies primarily with the maternal haplogroup.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ The alleged maternal lineage for the Amarnas is hg K which was found in late Neolithic remains of Morocco and today has a significant frequency in Ethiopia. As for R-V88, it derives from R-M173 which was also found in the Levant.
Ok, I see what you mean. But did these older "scholars" study Egypt in terms of archeology, anthropology linguistics etc., or were they merely observers and direct witnesses?
This 4 volume book is where the idea of Egyptology as science starts to form, to put together these different scientific disciplines, archaeology, anthropology linguistics this begins with writing and research related to Napoleon's French campaign in Egypt (which failed after a short time when the British navy became involved). Egyptomania was the renewed interest of Europeans and Americans in ancient Egypt during the nineteenth century as a result of Napoleon's Egyptian Campaign. ____________________
Mémoires sur l'Égypte by 160 civilian scholars and scientists (savants), many from the Institut de France,published during the Campaign of Napoleon Bonaparte in the Years 1798 and 1799
the book, readable online in English translation 1800.
This collection of writings, the books detail research during Napoleon's Campaign in Egypt, comprising some of the most foundational scientific research on the Middle East by Western scholars notably in the emerging field of Egyptology, eventually lead to the discovery of the Rosetta Stone, creating the field of Egyptology.
Jean-François Champollion's interest in Egyptian history and the hieroglyphic script developed at an early age. At the age of sixteen, he gave a lecture before the Grenoble Academy in which he argued that the language spoken by the ancient Egyptians, in which they wrote the Hieroglyphic texts, was closely related to Coptic. This view proved crucial in becoming able to read the texts, and the correctness of his proposed relation between Coptic and Ancient Egyptian has been confirmed by history. This enabled him to propose that the demotic script represented the Coptic language.
Already in 1806, he wrote to his brother about his decision to become the one to decipher the Egyptian script:
"I want to make a profound and continuous study of this antique nation. The enthusiasm that brought me the study of their monuments, their power and knowledge filling me with admiration, all of this will grow further as I will acquire new notions. Of all the people that I prefer, I shall say that none is as important to my heart as the Egyptians."
"Interestingly, the earliest offshoot of extant haplogroup R1b-M343 variation, the V88 sub-clade, which is currently most common in Fulani speaking populations in Africa (Cruciani et al. 2010) has distant relatives in Early Neolithic samples from across wide geographic area from Iberia, Germany to Samara (Fig. 7)."
______________________
However if we look at that Cruciani article he doesn't even mention Fuliani, Fula or Fulbe in the article although some in Niger do appear as V88 carriers in the table 1:
this is odd because while some Fulbe in Niger do carry V88 and Fula is Niger-Congo language, Fulbe in other regions listed do not (in this table) while the really high frequencies are the Chadic speakers, many groups, a long list in Northern Cameroon. The shows that Kivisild was not thinking much about this clade in Africa, the title of Cruciani's article plainly says
Human Y chromosome haplogroup R-V88: a paternal genetic record of early mid Holocene trans-Saharan connections and the spread of Chadic languages
______________________
this sloppiness is probably due to the fact that Klivisild's article is not about V88. It's much more general about Y DNA in ancient samples.
And no ancient R-V88 has been discovered yet (unless this new 18th dyn genetics article about to come out identifies the clade of R1b they report as R-V88)
Y-Chromosome Variation Among Sudanese: Restricted Gene Flow, Concordance With Language, Geography, and History Hisham Y. Hassan,1 Peter A. Underhill,2 Luca L. Cavalli-Sforza,2 and Muntaser E. Ibrahim1
"Haplogroup R-M173 appears to be the most frequent haplogroup in Fulani, and haplogroup R-P25 has the highest frequency in Hausa and Copts and is present at lower frequencies in north, east, and western Sudan. The Fulani, who possess the lowest population size in this study, have an interesting genetic structure, effectively consisting of two haplogroups or founding lineages. One of the lineages is R-M173 (53.8%), and its sheer frequency suggests either a recent migration of this group to Africa and/or a restricted gene flow due to linguistic or cultural barriers. The high frequency of subclade E-V22, which is believed to be northeast African (Cruciani et al., 2007) and haplogroup R-M173, suggests an amalgamation of two populations/cultures that took place sometime in the past in eastern or central Africa. This is also evident from the frequency of the ‘‘T’’ allele of the lactase persistence gene that is uniquely present in considerable frequencies among the Fulani (Mulcare et al., 2004). Interestingly, Fulani language is classified in the Niger-Congo family of languages, which is more prevalent in West Africa and among Bantu speakers, yet their Y-chromosomes show very little evidence of West African genetic affiliation"
__________________________________
The important thing to note here is that when this article was written in 2008 on Sudan R-V88 was not discovered yet. That would come 1-2 years later with the Cruciaini so it was just called M173 which is R1 generally, not mentioning what was probably V88 and Cruciani. I wonder if there is any special link between Sudan Fula and Niger Fula, notice in Cruciani's article he identifies the clade of the Hausa, Chadic speakers as R-V88
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Tukuler is right, that all these presumptions about the 18th dynasty genetic lineages are based on STRs alone, we still need the SNPs to be certain...
Meanwhile we must keep in mind the other evidences namely the mummies themselves from which the genetic material is being sampled.
I've mentioned in the original paper thread here that the 18th dynasty itself originated in Waset (Thebes) Upper Egypt. A genealogy of the 18th dynasty can be found here albeit with speculations for a few members, but for brevity let's just focus on 4 generations of paternal ancestors before Tut starting with Amenhotep II.
Amenhotep II
Thutmose IV
Amenhotep III
Despite the claims of "Caucasoid" appearance, analyses of skulls show that they display many African traits that can be found today in northeast Africa including north Sudan and the Horn.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Appreciate the back-up so forgive the following
It's not that I, Tu, am right. It's just a fact, only SNiP mutations can assuredly qualify uniparental haplogroups. In other words, haplogroups are defined by SNP mutations and nothing else.
Not that STaR based predictions are all phooey.
Certain Y STRs are in closer proximity to select Y SNPs allowing high probability guesswork. Estimate, prediction, and the like, are just fancy words for guesses (like gene flow is fancy for smashing)[*] despite confidence levels. Logic goes with the most likely but life can be 'unlikely' from time to time.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Tukuler is right, that all these presumptions about the 18th dynasty genetic lineages are based on STRs alone, we still need the SNPs to be certain...
.
Dawgawnitt, why ain't you post that Pham tree back to the 17th Dyn before I rushed, though arduously, to track 'em down to the 2nd Intermediate but didn't list the chain.
[*] Hey yawl, whadda happen if we use common lingo insteada all dem sci terms? No more hiding behind terminology nobody is really sure of, or explanatory proclamations of genomics principles that professionals know nothing about when you go ask 'em via email/phone.
Amenhotep III reconstruction drawing
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
code:
YEAR GENERATION
1950 Ego/Ega O | 1920 1 m = f | | 1890 2 m = Y X = f | | | | 1860 3 m = Y X = Y X = Y X = f | | | | | | | | 1830 4 m = Y X = Y X = Y X = Y X = Y X = Y X = Y X = f | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 1800 5 M=Y X=Y X=Y X=Y X=Y X=Y X=Y X=Y X=Y X=Y X=Y X=Y X=Y X=Y X=Y X=F
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Lemme see if I can find one o dem 4 generation charts showing how much ethnic information is lost following the two narrow uniparental paths no matter how far back you go.
Originally posted April 25, 2007: Let's take a 54 year old subject today and go back five generations to that persons great-great-great- grandparents of 200 years ago in the days of slavery.
The O represents the subject.
The M is the woman five generations ago whose mtDNA showed up on the test. Let's say she was Cherokee.
The F is the ancestral man as explained above except the genetic tests were done on the Y chromosome. Let's say he was Scotch Irish.
The mtDNA and Y chromosome tests only show the matrilineal ancestry through the Cherokee woman's m 's and the patrilineal ancestry through the Scotch Irishman's f 's.
Five generations ago in 1800, unless there was incest, or cousin matings, the subject has 32 ancestors. Let's say 30 of them were all Fons from Dahomey (modern Benin).
They're all those X 's and Y 's the DNA tests miss! They contribute 93.75% to the ancestral make up of the subject. Literally, they make him (or her) what he (or she) is.
The 1 out of 32 Cherokee ancestress and the 1 out of 32 Scotch Irish ancestor do not make the subject 50% Indian and 50% European. Together they only come to 6.25%. All those Dahomey Fons make the subject African.
Why wouldn't a responsible tester or company tell their client about this kind of test limitation? Why don't these docudrama writers on the cable tv narrate the truth about what these tests really tell?
code:
YEAR GENERATION
1950 Ego/Ega O | 1920 1 m = f | | 1890 2 m = Y X = f | | | | 1860 3 m = Y X = Y X = Y X = f | | | | | | | | 1830 4 m = Y X = Y X = Y X = Y X = Y X = Y X = Y X = f | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 1800 5 M=Y X=Y X=Y X=Y X=Y X=Y X=Y X=Y X=Y X=Y X=Y X=Y X=Y X=Y X=Y X=F
Jumping to DNA conclusions can breed false historic or personal notions, like Skippy being 50% white and having 50 out of 100 European progenitors. Beware of unsupplemented DNA conclusions. At least in Skippy's case somebody finally went used other genetic evidence.
The problem with reconstructions especially when working with the skull alone is they don't take into account soft tissue features like the tip of the nose, the lips, or fullness of the cheeks. Hence the countless variations on the same figures i.e. Tut and the Younger Lady.
The historical portraits have been more or less consistent.
But if we're going to assess his skull let's go right ahead.
The poorly preserved mummy of Amenhotep III displays a skeletonized head with scarce facial flesh. The bones of the skull and face of the mummy have suffered from multiple post-mortem fractures. Most of the soft tissues of the face are missing. The remnant of soft tissues of the face and lower neck shows packs of resin and linen bits. The orbits are filled with an embalming material. There is a rise near the top of the skull with mildly projected glabella, rectangular sloping orbits, prominent nasal septum, and steepled nasals. The chin is long and pointed downward with straight lines (receding). The mandible shows a steep slope from the jaws to the chin, likely with mild maxillary and mandibular prognathism. Occipital bun is present in the form of a flattened lambdoid region with upper and lower eminences causing sharp angles. ---Scanning the Pharaohs: CT Imaging of the New Kingdom Royal Mummies by Zahi Hawass and Dr. Sahar Saleem
I emboldened the parts of the description above that jibe with forensic classifications of "negroid" or "Africoid" features.
The description of the vertically elongated chin and steep slope jaws is particularly interesting as those same features are common in the remains of Naqada Egyptians of late predynastic and protodynastic times such as in Lord Tera-Neter.
This feature is also common in Nubian remains like those of Middle Kingdom Kerma studied by Egyptologist Joyce Filer.
The same set of mandibular features are also present in the KV55 1 skull presumed to be Amehotep III's son Akhenaten.
Although there's a second KV55 skull that bears an even closer resemblance to Tut than the 1st one.
Is the above skull Akhenaten's brother? If so, could he be the actual father of Tut? either way they would all share the same paternal lineage.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
By the 8 forensic autosome loci, Amenophis III and Thuya have similar Levantine lineage though in different locus alleles.
My results are completely replicable mainstream science. DNA Tribes is from a non-replicable proprietary algorithm. DNA Tribes needed a support/disconfirm of their findings. popSTR db and CODIS STR tables more or less support DNA Tribes.
The problem with reconstructions especially when working with the skull alone is they don't take into account soft tissue features like the tip of the nose, the lips, or fullness of the cheeks. Hence the countless variations on the same figures i.e. Tut and the Younger Lady.
The historical portraits have been more or less consistent.
posted
^ Thanks for proving my point about Amenhotep III's portraits being more or less consistent.
All the portraits show him with straight nose, full lips, and round face similar to his grandson Tut.
In case you embarrass yourself you can just delete the post per your abuse of moderator power. Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Mane, these guys are crazy and don't realize what they're actually doing is making a case for strong inner African biology in the Levant with all this roorag going back to Syrian Tiye with her almond eye sassy imperial self.
Yuya Tiye Amenhotep III Ramesses III
They're playing musical chairs and don't even know it.
My sentiments exactly! We just don't know what African alleles were prevalent in prehistoric times that extended into Eurasia which aren't pervasive today and are masked over by Eurasian back-migrations. We are only starting to see hints of them like in the 2018 Loosdrecht study.
Brandon was the first to point out the Hadza-type alleles in West Eurasians. Imagine what other types of African alleles existed that aren't extent today.
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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In case you embarrass yourself you can just delete the post per your abuse of moderator power.
don't be ridiculous this is not a court transcript. Somebody can delete or correct their own post if they want to. I'm not here to play "gotcha" on some old post, your infantile games. Stop getting triggered I just posted a picture. And you even seem to like it, yet still trying to instigate
Also what you are saying doesn't make sense . You show Lord Tera-Neter to exemplify an elongated chin, yet that is not on these other two art pieces, the painting and the wood bust
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Despicable action designed to make TrollMod appear to be right after the fact and worse than that, appear to right about every dawgone thing.
Honest posters don't alter the record but notify of EDITs w/o deleting or altering their original post.
There's nothing to be done about it DJ. ONLY YOU CAN PREVENT FOREST FIRES Ignore and dismiss the temptation to swallow the bait and get caught like in the School Of Fool Fish
But do what you wanna No matter what you will continue to engage the TM anyway
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
In case you embarrass yourself you can just delete the post per your abuse of moderator power.
don't be ridiculous this is not a court transcript. Somebody can delete or correct their own post if they want to. I'm not here to play "gotcha" on some old post, your infantile games. Stop getting triggered I just posted a picture. And you even seem to like it, yet still trying to instigate
Also what you are saying doesn't make sense . You show Lord Tera-Neter to exemplify an elongated chin, yet that is not on these other two art pieces, the painting and the wood bust
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
AS PROMISED YESTERDAY
By the 8 forensic autosome loci, Amenophis III and Thuya have similar Levantine lineage though in different locus alleles.
My results are completely replicable mainstream science. DNA Tribes is from a non-replicable proprietary algorithm. DNA Tribes needed a support/disconfirm of their findings. popSTR db and CODIS STR tables more or less support DNA Tribes.
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
AS PROMISED YESTERDAY
By the 8 forensic autosome loci, Amenophis III and Thuya have similar Levantine lineage though in different locus alleles.
My results are completely replicable mainstream science. DNA Tribes is from a non-replicable proprietary algorithm. DNA Tribes needed a support/disconfirm of their findings. popSTR db and CODIS STR tables more or less support DNA Tribes.
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
ES staff likes the TrollMod to hi-jack threads that is as long as its not a thread they opened.
Please just don't reply to TM inanities or errors though they derail the thread's continuity ignore 'em unless a truly relevant post is offered.
Because some good can come out of it, I'd prefer opening a new thread to counter TM off-topic trollings. Please just copy the post and paste it in an appropriately titled new thread. Thx.
All I can do is ask Djehuti and Ish Geber to not turn my thread into the Lioness Show where replying to his distractions becomes much more important or personally satisfying than adding value to the thread topic.
By the 8 forensic autosome loci, Amenophis III and Thuya have similar Levantine lineage though in different locus alleles.
My results are completely replicable mainstream science. DNA Tribes is from a non-replicable proprietary algorithm. DNA Tribes needed a support/disconfirm of their findings. popSTR db and CODIS STR tables more or less support DNA Tribes.
posted
^ Do you think the placing of these alleles supports the theory that Amenhotep III and Tiye were cousins via Mutemwiya and Yuya being siblings?
Such a family relation may explain why such the betrothal to the noblewoman Tiye may not be as random as most scholars believe.
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: AS PROMISED YESTERDAY
By the 8 forensic autosome loci, Amenophis III and Thuya have similar Levantine lineage though in different locus alleles.
My results are completely replicable mainstream science. DNA Tribes is from a non-replicable proprietary algorithm. DNA Tribes needed a support/disconfirm of their findings. popSTR db and CODIS STR tables more or less support DNA Tribes.
What do you mean by "Levantine lineage"?
Is it an ancient ancestral genetic lineage shared between the two or a two way pattern of exchange or simply "back migration" in more recent times.
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posted
^ By "lineage" in this case I think he simply means alleles typically identified in Levantine populations, though by no means necessarily originating there as again we don't know the extent certain alleles commonly found in the Levant could possibly have originated in Africa as Tukuler is implying.
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ By "lineage" in this case I think he simply means alleles typically identified in Levantine populations, though by no means necessarily originating there as again we don't know the extent certain alleles commonly found in the Levant could possibly have originated in Africa as Tukuler is implying.
Wasn't sure from the way he phrased it, because there are so many things that could have happened it is hard to know what particular path is being proposed sometimes in these discussions.
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posted
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Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Do not assist in the hi-jacking my thread.
Please keep this thread ON (A-III/Amarna uni&bi-parental DNA) TOPIC.
If you like being led around by the nose and taken off track whimsically from here to there to anywhere by Giant, make your replies to the Lioness Show somewhere else, like in one of his threads. This last post is already in his Sardinian Chalcolithic R-V88 thread. It has no place here.
quote: Within Europe, R-M269 is dominated by R-M412, also known as R-L51, which according to Myres et al. (2010) is "virtually absent in the Near East, the Caucasus and West Asia.
quote: n 1925, three years after its discovery, King Tut's mummy was unwrapped in the outer corridor of the tomb of Seti II (KV15) by Carter and others
How do we know that sample has been contaminated by Howard Carter himself?
quote: Nicolas PaulNovember 12, 2020 at 6:15 AM I've found an even closer fit (the closest I can find) - with R-L226 (a subclade of L21). STRs v modern L226 haplotype: Tut - 13 24 14 11 11 14 10 13 13 30 16 14 19 10 15 12 L226- 13 24 14 11 11 14 11 13 13 29 17 15 19 11 15 12 Estimated distance based on these STRs is 2,825 years, which is almost exactly the distance between Tutankhamun (4,362 ybp) and L226's MRCA (1,500 ybp, per yfull) = 2,862 years.
L226 is a very odd SNP. It is clearly Atlantic Bell Beaker in formation (by my calculation from STRs, quite a bit older than yfull's estimate of 1,900 BC), but disappears into an apparent bottleneck for thousands of years before flourishing only in the common era in Ireland. It makes one wonder whether it was developing elsewhere (perhaps in a poorly sampled part of the world?), and calls to mind possible associations with the old Gaelic legend of the Egyptian Scota.
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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quote: Within Europe, R-M269 is dominated by R-M412, also known as R-L51, which according to Myres et al. (2010) is "virtually absent in the Near East, the Caucasus and West Asia.
quote: n 1925, three years after its discovery, King Tut's mummy was unwrapped in the outer corridor of the tomb of Seti II (KV15) by Carter and others
How do we know that sample has been contaminated by Howard Carter himself?
quote: Nicolas PaulNovember 12, 2020 at 6:15 AM I've found an even closer fit (the closest I can find) - with R-L226 (a subclade of L21). STRs v modern L226 haplotype: Tut - 13 24 14 11 11 14 10 13 13 30 16 14 19 10 15 12 L226- 13 24 14 11 11 14 11 13 13 29 17 15 19 11 15 12 Estimated distance based on these STRs is 2,825 years, which is almost exactly the distance between Tutankhamun (4,362 ybp) and L226's MRCA (1,500 ybp, per yfull) = 2,862 years.
L226 is a very odd SNP. It is clearly Atlantic Bell Beaker in formation (by my calculation from STRs, quite a bit older than yfull's estimate of 1,900 BC), but disappears into an apparent bottleneck for thousands of years before flourishing only in the common era in Ireland. It makes one wonder whether it was developing elsewhere (perhaps in a poorly sampled part of the world?), and calls to mind possible associations with the old Gaelic legend of the Egyptian Scota.
Ancestry and Pathology in King Tutankhamun's Family February 2010 JAMA The Journal of the American Medical Association 303(7):638-47
From September 2007 to October 2009, royal mummies underwent detailed anthropological, radiological, and genetic studies as part of the King Tutankhamun Family Project. Mummies distinct from Tutankhamun's immediate lineage served as the genetic and morphological reference. To authenticate DNA results, analytical steps were repeated and independently replicated in a second ancient DNA laboratory staffed by a separate group of personnel. Eleven royal mummies dating from circa 1410-1324 bc and suspected of being kindred of Tutankhamun and 5 royal mummies dating to an earlier period, circa 1550-1479 bc, were examined. Microsatellite-based haplotypes in the mummies, generational segregation of alleles within possible pedigree variants, and correlation of identified diseases with individual age, archeological evidence, and the written historical record. Genetic fingerprinting allowed the construction of a 5-generation pedigree of Tutankhamun's immediate lineage.
Molecular GeneticsWe adopted the previously publishedcriteria for ancient DNA authentica-tion, which form a consensus outlinefor executing research studies using an-cient DNA (eAppendix).12,13 Samplingof bone tissue and DNA extraction andpurification were performed accord-ing to protocols previously pub-lished.14,15 Negative and blank extrac-tion controls were processed along witheach sample. In addition, water andother aqueous polymerase chain reac-tion (PCR) components were moni-tored using the sensitive internal-Alu-PCR protocol 16 to assess contamination with modern human DNA.
Sixteen Y-chromosomal short tan-dem repeats (DYS456, DYS389I,DYS390, DYS389II, DYS458, DYS19,DYS385, DYS393, DYS391, DYS439,DYS635, DYS392, Y-GATA-H4,DYS437, DYS438, DYS448) were am-plified according to the manufactur-er’s protocol using the AmpF\STR YfilerPCR amplification kit (Applied Biosys-tems, Foster City, California). The Iden-tifiler kit and the AmpF\STR Minifilerkit (Applied Biosystems) were usedfor amplification of 8 polymorphic mi-crosatellites of the nuclear genome(D13S317, D7S820, D2S1338, D21S11,D16S539, D18S51, CSF1PO, FGA).
These results were repeatedly ob-tained with DNA extracted from 2 to 4 different biopsies per mummy; more-over, they differed from the Y profiles ofthe male laboratory staff and were independently reproduced twice in a sec-ond laboratory physically isolated fromthe first, data-generating laboratory ___________________________________________
I'm not sure about this but if there was contamination by Howard Carter or some other modern person since 1923 it would have to be for several mummies
Identifications of ancient Egyptian royal mummies from the 18th Dynasty reconsidered M.E. Habicht A.S. Bouwman F.J. Rühli First published: 25 January 2016 https://doi.org/10.1002/ajpa.22909
Zink and Nerlich postulated that DNA analysis was feasible based on the lower temperature in the tombs, the beneficial fact that mummies are dry and that natron increases the pH‐value (Zink and Nerlich, 2003). The success rate of amplifying DNA by PCR from ancient samples is generally 50–60% (Zink et al., 2001). Other studies, based on the decay rate of DNA in papyrus rejected the idea that authentic DNA from ancient Egypt could survive at all (Marota et al., 2002). Factors such as humidity, chemical agents, temperature, and modern contamination are a challenge for molecular genetic studies (Gilbert et al., 2005). A study on the extent of modern contamination was presented by Malmström, investigating animal remains for human DNA: all 29 samples contained human DNA, but in 25 cases authentic animal DNA was found also (Malmström et al., 2005). To eliminate contamination, procedures were developed to assure the collection of authentic ancient DNA (Yang and Watt, 2005; Bouwman et al., 2006; Anderung et al., 2008). To ensure authentic and credible data they suggest:
•Extraction of clean samples in new excavations, the traditional cleaning of bones must be avoided no washing, no chemicals, and separate storage from modern samples; and investigators should handle them only with gloves and wear forensic suits.
•For old material, which is possibly contaminated, a decontamination strategy should be used first.
•Search for criteria of authenticity (short DNA strands of less than 300 base pairs and authentic aDNA should contain modified bases).
•UV irradiation and removal of the surface material, extraction from the bone cortex or dentine. For the Tutankhamun Family project, such safety protocols were applied (Richards et al., 1995; Gad, 2010; Gabolde, 2013a). Several facts speak clearly in favor of authentic aDNA:
•All female genetic profiles were negative for Y‐Chromosome markers.
•All male mummies showed homozygous (i.e., hemizygous) Y‐chromosomal profiles.
•The profiles and haplotypes of all mummies showed individual differences and therefore could not have originated from the same source of putative contaminant DNA.
•The combination of nuclear data (Y‐ and autosomal chromosome–related markers) complemented each other.
•Different biopsies and extractions on each mummy resulted in reproducible genotypes.
•The profiles established a multigeneration family tree. This family line concurs with information from Egyptology on the relationship of the individuals: Modern contamination by excavators and anthropologists would be extremely unlikely result in such a family line (Gabolde, 2013a).
Claims that it is not possible to extract authentic DNA from Egyptian mummies (Marota et al., 2002; Gilbert et al., 2005; Lorenzen and Willerslev, 2010) can be challenged by the fact that recent studies were able to identify ancient animal DNA in Egyptian crocodile and cat mummies (Hekkala et al., 2011; Kurushima et al., 2012; Marchant, 2014). New technology, such as Next Generation Sequencing will make it easier to identify contamination and separate it from authentic DNA. From all methods applied to identify royal mummies, molecular genetics are the most reliable together with accurate information from the historic inscriptions provided by archaeological research.
Posts: 42920 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Only thing worse than A N Y B O D Y arrogantly robbing my active agency
is S O M E B O D Y accepting that I'm a slave/child/dog that can't speak for himself
and believes A N Y B O D Y has spoken what's in my mind.
Wait for it dammitt!!
Wait for my reply neither accept nor recognize S O M E O N E else who isn't YYT al~Takruri making believe they are.
When I hire you you can speak for me as I dictate otherwise STFU with the presumptions. I don't like it not one bit at all.
Bottom (calmer) line: SPEAK FOR YOURSELF the only one you CAN speak for.
=-=
EDIT: Burnt out researching analyzing synthesizing etc right now. Back in the groove by Jahnooahry 1st.
WHOA, WHOA, WHOA, bruh don't blow my head off! I never meant to speak for you, and I should have made that clear in my post which is why I used the word "think" as is speculation as to what your thoughts were. That said, I do apologize if I caused you any offense.
So what do you make of the theory that Amenhotep III and Tiye are cousins?
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
yeesh no fair utilizing humility as a countering death blow aaaaaaarrrrrrrrggghh msg received humility is my gr8est challenge this incarnation
it was 'a very bad day' a kick muh Dawg day
and i still ain't ready to post a write-up for DougM jis yet
and you still can't think what you think I think 4 me so don even think it, Dawg
4 now only posting stuff don't require me no effort
ain't feelin no original analysis & reporting need a break b4 breakdown
tha kit allowing recovery of 8 loci profiles was developed for m/paternity cases and not sold otherwise. Gad et al got around that and used it to capture ancDNA STRs for ascertaining familial relationships in Amarnas. you can apply that to cousins and who KV55 questions till after the 1st.
cuzn hint = chk their STRs, how many matches?
Peace OK
=-=
@ Ish Geber Todah hhaberi for axing that Sardinian stuff so this 1st page stays on A III related subtopics.
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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