posted
Have we ever resolved the question as to what Keita's coastal North African type actually looks like? I would imagine it to be somewhat like this below, but correct me if I am wrong:
posted
Diop the guy who Keita venerated with a special piece in his honor had long stated that this particular African type seen in Lower Khamet was the Dravidian.
Also remember that Dravidian is still spoken in parts of Western-Central Africa to this day.
posted
"tropically adapted/negroid" when it comes to limb is not going to tell us anything especially when it comes to people who live in desertic/hot areas as Brace himself said :
quote:The elongation of the distal segments of the limbs is also clearly related to the dissipation of metabolically generated heat. Since heat stress and latitude are clearly related, one would expect to find a correlation between the two sets of traits that are associated with adaptation to survival in areas of great ambient temperature-namely skin color and limb proportions. This is clearly the case in such areas as equatorial Africa, the tropical portions of South Asia, and northern Australia, although there is little covariation with other sets of inherited traits. In this regard, it is interesting to note that the limb proportions of the Predynastic Naqada people in Upper Egypt are reported to be “super-negroid,” meaning that the distal segments are elongated in the fashion of tropical Africans (Robins and Shute, 1986). It would be just as accurate to call them “super-Veddoid or “superCarpentarian” since skin color intensification and distal limb elongation is apparent wherever people have been long-term residents of the tropics. The term “supertropical” would be better since it implies the results of selection associated with a given latitude rather than the more “racially loaded” term “negroid. ” "
Brace, C. L., D. P. Tracer, L. A. Yaroch, J. Robb, K. Brandt, and A. R. Nelson. 1993. Clines and Clusters Versus "Race": A Test in Ancient Egypt and the Case of a Death on the Nile. Yearbook of Physical Anthropology 36:1-31.
Also how do you know modern egyptians don't have such "tropically adapted" limbs ?
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quote:Originally posted by Elijah The Tishbite: [QB] Have we ever resolved the question as to what Keita's coastal North African type actually looks like? I would imagine it to be somewhat like this below, but correct me if I am wrong:
to properly start this thread you would need a full sentence quote from SOY Keita mentioning a "coastal North African type" and the source article or lecture it comes from
also it's not exactly respectful to pick a terrorist as the representative of North Africans
-and there are a lot of different types in North Africa and in some of the prehistoric sites, not just one type
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quote:Originally posted by Big O: Diop the guy who Keita venerated with a special piece in his honor had long stated that this particular African type seen in Lower Khamet was the Dravidian.
The theme of this thread is the so called coastal North African type
either you have a Diop quote with book or article title and page number or you don't
getting tired of the lack of scholarship, you have no concept of sources or references, for years now Look at zarahan's stuff, it's all sourced with citations
Also if Keita admired Diop that doesn't mean he has to agree with everything he said like a religious follower Also Diop died 36 years ago and there have been a lot of anthropological research findings since then
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quote:Originally posted by Elijah The Tishbite: Have we ever resolved the question as to what Keita's coastal North African type actually looks like? I would imagine it to be somewhat like this below, but correct me if I am wrong:
Didn’t he describe it as heterogeneous, but on average intermediate in morphology between Europeans and other Africans?
UPDATE: How about we go back to his classic 1990 study?
quote:The unknown analyses of the Maghreban crania show many to be more similar to northern Egyptians Sedment and “E” series), but the presence of tropical phenotypes is notable. Thirteen to seventeen percent classified into the European series (Table 5).
quote:The variability of the Maghreb series is probably secondary to migration into the region. This is not to resurrect the migrationist paradigm and imply that all biological or cultural change, or variability, is secondary to migration. Each case deserves its own evaluation. The Mediterranean neolithic tradition, as noted earlier, may have been brought from Europe by migrants (Camps, 1982). However, the “European” metrics of some of the crania may be secondary to geneflow from Phoenicia, since Punic craniometric data in Schwidetsky and Ramaswamy, 1980) reveal them to have values similar to those of Europeans (see data in Howells, 1973). Blacks (the “Ethiopians” of the Maghreb and Sahara of the ancient writers) may have migrated from a desiccating Sahara during an earlier hunting period or during the neolithic period or may have been part of the indigenous early Holocene population. This would pertain to the Nile Valley also.
quote:The analyses demonstrate the metric heterogeneity of pre-Roman mid-Holocene Maghreban crania. The range of variation in the restricted area described extends from a tropical African metric pattern to a European one and supports the phenotypic variability observed in and near Carthage by ancient writers and in morphological studies. Thus the population emerges as a composite entity, no doubt also containing hybrid individuals. However, the centroid value of the combined Maghreb series indicates that the major craniometric pattern is most similar to that of northern dynastic Egyptians, not northwest Europeans. Furthermore, the series from the coastal Maghreb and northern Lower Egypt are more similar to one another than they are to any other series by centroid values and unknown analyses.
quote:Originally posted by Elijah The Tishbite: Have we ever resolved the question as to what Keita's coastal North African type actually looks like? I would imagine it to be somewhat like this below, but correct me if I am wrong:
Didn’t he describe it as heterogeneous, but on average intermediate in morphology between Europeans and other Africans?
UPDATE: How about we go back to his classic 1990 study?
quote:The unknown analyses of the Maghreban crania show many to be more similar to northern Egyptians Sedment and “E” series), but the presence of tropical phenotypes is notable. Thirteen to seventeen percent classified into the European series (Table 5).
quote:The variability of the Maghreb series is probably secondary to migration into the region. This is not to resurrect the migrationist paradigm and imply that all biological or cultural change, or variability, is secondary to migration. Each case deserves its own evaluation. The Mediterranean neolithic tradition, as noted earlier, may have been brought from Europe by migrants (Camps, 1982). However, the “European” metrics of some of the crania may be secondary to geneflow from Phoenicia, since Punic craniometric data in Schwidetsky and Ramaswamy, 1980) reveal them to have values similar to those of Europeans (see data in Howells, 1973). Blacks (the “Ethiopians” of the Maghreb and Sahara of the ancient writers) may have migrated from a desiccating Sahara during an earlier hunting period or during the neolithic period or may have been part of the indigenous early Holocene population. This would pertain to the Nile Valley also.
quote:The analyses demonstrate the metric heterogeneity of pre-Roman mid-Holocene Maghreban crania. The range of variation in the restricted area described extends from a tropical African metric pattern to a European one and supports the phenotypic variability observed in and near Carthage by ancient writers and in morphological studies. Thus the population emerges as a composite entity, no doubt also containing hybrid individuals. However, the centroid value of the combined Maghreb series indicates that the major craniometric pattern is most similar to that of northern dynastic Egyptians, not northwest Europeans. Furthermore, the series from the coastal Maghreb and northern Lower Egypt are more similar to one another than they are to any other series by centroid values and unknown analyses.
Indeed, he did say it was intermediate between tropical Africans and Europeans. Its seems to be very difficult to pin down exactly how this type would look phenotypically
Posts: 2595 | From: Vicksburg | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Elijah The Tishbite: Have we ever resolved the question as to what Keita's coastal North African type actually looks like? I would imagine it to be somewhat like this below, but correct me if I am wrong:
Didn’t he describe it as heterogeneous, but on average intermediate in morphology between Europeans and other Africans?
UPDATE: How about we go back to his classic 1990 study?
quote:The unknown analyses of the Maghreban crania show many to be more similar to northern Egyptians Sedment and “E” series), but the presence of tropical phenotypes is notable. Thirteen to seventeen percent classified into the European series (Table 5).
quote:The variability of the Maghreb series is probably secondary to migration into the region. This is not to resurrect the migrationist paradigm and imply that all biological or cultural change, or variability, is secondary to migration. Each case deserves its own evaluation. The Mediterranean neolithic tradition, as noted earlier, may have been brought from Europe by migrants (Camps, 1982). However, the “European” metrics of some of the crania may be secondary to geneflow from Phoenicia, since Punic craniometric data in Schwidetsky and Ramaswamy, 1980) reveal them to have values similar to those of Europeans (see data in Howells, 1973). Blacks (the “Ethiopians” of the Maghreb and Sahara of the ancient writers) may have migrated from a desiccating Sahara during an earlier hunting period or during the neolithic period or may have been part of the indigenous early Holocene population. This would pertain to the Nile Valley also.
quote:The analyses demonstrate the metric heterogeneity of pre-Roman mid-Holocene Maghreban crania. The range of variation in the restricted area described extends from a tropical African metric pattern to a European one and supports the phenotypic variability observed in and near Carthage by ancient writers and in morphological studies. Thus the population emerges as a composite entity, no doubt also containing hybrid individuals. However, the centroid value of the combined Maghreb series indicates that the major craniometric pattern is most similar to that of northern dynastic Egyptians, not northwest Europeans. Furthermore, the series from the coastal Maghreb and northern Lower Egypt are more similar to one another than they are to any other series by centroid values and unknown analyses.
Indeed, he did say it was intermediate between tropical Africans and Europeans. Its seems to be very difficult to pin down exactly how this type would look phenotypically
If only he had included the late Paleolithic remains from Taforalt in his study. We have an idea of their physical appearance (e.g. alleles for darker skin color) and their ancestry thanks to the aDNA we sampled from them. How would they compare to these younger Maghrebi remains?
quote:Originally posted by BrandonP: If only he had included the late Paleolithic remains from Taforalt in his study. We have an idea of their physical appearance (e.g. alleles for darker skin color) and their ancestry thanks to the aDNA we sampled from them. How would they compare to these younger Maghrebi remains? [/QB]
This has already been settled : protohistoric algerians, punics, roman era north africans and modern north africans show affinities with other west mediterranean population and the heterogeneity pointed by Keita is still found among modern north africans :
quote:The examination of these tables allows for some interesting remarks. If the Algerians and the Punic are more oriented towards the populations of the western Mediterranean, affinities with two Near Eastern series of the first millennium B.C. are nevertheless noted. In particular, the distance is quite small with the Syrian series of the Euphrates. With respect to the protohistoric populations of the central and southern Sahara, the distances are relatively high.
Among the populations of the western Mediterranean, the series from northern Spain and the islands of the western Mediterranean (Catalonia, and Tarragona, Majorca, Eneolithic Sardinia) are closer to the North Africans than the series from southern Spain (Valencia). Among the populations of northern Africa, two Egyptian series, Abydos of the first millennium (Upper Egypt) and Giza of the first millennium (Middle Egypt), as well as the general series of the pre-Hispanic Canary Islanders of Gran Canaria (and not that of the Gaïdar tumulus), appear to be quite close to the Algerians of the protohistoric burial grounds. The affinities of the Punic appear less grouped.
quote:All in all, the anthropological position of the Protohistoric algerians and Punics with respect to the populations of the Mediterranean Basin fits quite well with their geographical situation. Situated halfway between the countries of the western Mediterranean and northeast Africa, they offer affinities with the ancient inhabitants of northern Spain and Egypt. On the other hand, insofar as among the ancient inhabitants of eastern Syria the Mediterranean type predominated, it is not surprising to note similarities between the latter and the protohistoric Algerians where this morphological type predominated. But we should not forget either that the Algerians of the protohistoric period were descendants of the Capsian and Neolithic Proto-Mediterraneans.
quote:The study of 110 current Algerian skulls gives the following results:
1° The subpopulations, of which the main ones are those of Biskra, Algiers-Oran and Kabylie, show significant heterogeneity for the following characters: minimum frontal width, height of the malar, width of the nose and the nasal index. These groups can be combined into a single "Algerian" group because the significant differences concern few characters, without privileged direction and without preponderant discrimination of a population.
2° The majority of Algerian skulls of both sexes present the characteristics of the variants of the Mediterranean element which are: a neurocranium of approximately ovoid form, of strong cranial capacity, narrow, dolichocranium to mesocranium, of average to strong height. The glabella and the arches are moderately developed. The face is narrow, of rather average height and length. The mandibles are not particularly robust but are characterized by their lateral development and their extroverted gonions.
3° The sexual dimorphism of the "Algerians" manifests itself in a strong and harmonious way.
4° The variation of the metric characters is relatively increased compared to the standards of Homo sapiens, indicating a certain heterogeneity.
5° The tendency to polytypy on a generally Mediterranean background, suggesting Armenoid and south-oriental influences."
Roman series plot with modern north africans and again other west mediterranean people :
quote:Thus, in spite of a certain heterogeneity - difficult to appreciate -, our Algerian series of Roman period presents, as a whole, affinities at the same time with the "Berber" populations of North Africa and with various other Mediterranean populations. Among the latter, the East Iberian populations of the same time undoubtedly hold a privileged place, according to the data which we have (tabl. III). It seems however that our series is appreciably more robust than these Spanish series. It does not possess, on the other hand, the very broad front and the high stature of certain current Berbers (Tuareg), but would be rather similar to the Kabyles, of which it offers us perhaps an approximate image of the ancestors. "
quote:Analysis of the anthropological position of the Algerians in relation to the other populations of the Mediterranean basin shows that there are connections between them and certain populations of the western Mediterranean area, such as Corsicans, Sardinians, Spanish, and southern Italians. On the otherhand, however the anthropological distance between the Algerians and the central Italians, the Yugoslavs, and the sedentary populations of the Near East, such as Jordanians, Lebanese, and Syrians, appears to be rather great. Among these populations, the Armenoid type(which is quite different from the Mediterranean type) is in fact well represented, although it is not very widespread in Algeria.
quote:Originally posted by Elijah The Tishbite: Indeed, he did say it was intermediate between tropical Africans and Europeans. Its seems to be very difficult to pin down exactly how this type would look phenotypically
Again, there were multiple types in the region
what your goal seems to be is to find some picture of a modern North African and suggest that one photo represents all the ancient Africans
It's a racist agenda you are pursuing and you are trying to use Keita who did not do that, said they were heterogenous
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quote:Originally posted by Elijah The Tishbite: Indeed, he did say it was intermediate between tropical Africans and Europeans. Its seems to be very difficult to pin down exactly how this type would look phenotypically
Again, there were multiple types in the region
what your goal seems to be is to find some picture of a modern North African and suggest that one photo represents all the ancient Africans
It's a racist agenda you are pursuing and you are trying to use Keita who did not do that, said they were heterogenous
I know there were many types, but I'm talking about ONE type, the "coastal" North African type that Keita speaks about. There is no racism in that
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quote:Originally posted by Elijah The Tishbite: I know there were many types, but I'm talking about ONE type, the "coastal" North African type that Keita speaks about. There is no racism in that
You never even quoted Keita as per him talking about some type this is a shabby presentation
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quote:Originally posted by Elijah The Tishbite: Indeed, he did say it was intermediate between tropical Africans and Europeans. Its seems to be very difficult to pin down exactly how this type would look phenotypically
Again, there were multiple types in the region
what your goal seems to be is to find some picture of a modern North African and suggest that one photo represents all the ancient Africans
It's a racist agenda you are pursuing and you are trying to use Keita who did not do that, said they were heterogenous
I know there were many types, but I'm talking about ONE type, the "coastal" North African type that Keita speaks about. There is no racism in that
I think Keita is using that term to refer to a broad spectrum of variation in the region rather than one specific phenotype.
Of course, we could all be wrong. Perhaps they looked more like this:
quote:Originally posted by Elijah The Tishbite: I know there were many types, but I'm talking about ONE type, the "coastal" North African type that Keita speaks about. There is no racism in that
You never even quoted Keita as per him talking about some type this is a shabby presentation
Don't troll my topic
This **northern modal pattern**, which can be **called coastal northern African**, is noted in general terms to be intermediate, by the centroid scores of Function I, to equatorial African and northern European phenotypes - Keita, Further studies of crania from ancient northern Africa: an analysis of crania from first dynasty Egyptian tombs, using discriminant functions, 1992.
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posted
BTW, Elijah, who is the individual in your OP? I take it he is from North Africa? I certainly wouldn't say he has less ancestral claim to the region than the "Caucasoid" people certain North African ethno-nationalists want to pass off as "the real Amazigh".
quote:Originally posted by BrandonP: BTW, Elijah, who is the individual in your OP? I take it he is from North Africa? I certainly wouldn't say he has less ancestral claim to the region than the "Caucasoid" people certain North African ethno-nationalists want to pass off as "the real Amazigh".
Thats Zacarias Moussaoui, a Moroccan.
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quote:Originally posted by Elijah The Tishbite: I know there were many types, but I'm talking about ONE type, the "coastal" North African type that Keita speaks about. There is no racism in that
You never even quoted Keita as per him talking about some type this is a shabby presentation
Don't troll my topic
This **northern modal pattern**, which can be **called coastal northern African**, is noted in general terms to be intermediate, by the centroid scores of Function I, to equatorial African and northern European phenotypes - Keita, Further studies of crania from ancient northern Africa: an analysis of crania from first dynasty Egyptian tombs, using discriminant functions, 1992.
see you had people thinking it was his 1990 article but instead it's the 1992
That wastes everybody's time
and you still don't have any sentence quotes from his article posted so we can see the context. Have you figured out how to use copy and paste yet?
trolling your thread?
You have no thread, you are talking about Keita yet have no sentence quote of Keita yet talking about coastal northern Africans
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quote:Originally posted by BrandonP: BTW, Elijah, who is the individual in your OP? I take it he is from North Africa? I certainly wouldn't say he has less ancestral claim to the region than the "Caucasoid" people certain North African ethno-nationalists want to pass off as "the real Amazigh".
Thats Zacarias Moussaoui, a Moroccan.
Morocco has a substansial proportion of its population that has slave roots especially in the south :
quote:The recurrence of testimonies establishes the obvious: Morocco has never ceased to maintain an imposing body of black slaves. Even today, the men of the Royal Guard, half of the inhabitants of Marrakech and the cities of the South can claim to be part of this distant heritage that has given the country a certain number of sovereigns.
L'esclavage en terre d'islam, Malek Chebel, p.241
Morocco was literally one of the biggest slave trader in the muslim world and it only abolished it during the early XXth century under french pressure.
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quote:Originally posted by BrandonP: BTW, Elijah, who is the individual in your OP? I take it he is from North Africa? I certainly wouldn't say he has less ancestral claim to the region than the "Caucasoid" people certain North African ethno-nationalists want to pass off as "the real Amazigh".
Zacarias Moussaoui of Moroccon background, was a French member of al-Qaeda who pleaded guilty in U.S. federal court to conspiring to kill citizens of the United States as part of the September 11 attacks. He is serving life in prison without parole at the Federal ADX Supermax prison in Florence, Colorado. Moussaoui is the only person ever convicted in U.S. court in connection with the September 11th attacks.
Yes who he is is irrelevant
but this of all people is to be the representative of coastal North African ? That would be a big insult to many North Africans
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quote: Over the centuries, Morocco itself was probably the largest single market in North Africa for imported Sudanese slaves, in the sense that more of them found final buyers there and fewer were re-exported to other markets. The existence of a slave trade between the Sudan and southern Morocco was attested by the Spanish Muslim (later Christian) travelling diplomat, Leo Africanus, in the early sixteenth century when he found that in the district of Sijilmasa (the town itself had already been destroyed), ‘some of their principall men are exceeding rich, and use great traffique into the land of the Negros: whither they transport wares of Barbarie, exchanging the same for gold and slaves’.92 Many slaves were also delivered to Morocco as tribute or gifts to rulers of that important political entity"
John Wright, the Trans-Saharan Slave Trade, pp. 32
quote:In his monumental Tableau géographique de l’Ouest Africain au moyen age, Raymond Mauny estimated that in its first 900 years (seventh–fifteenth centuries), the Islamic Saharan trade delivered nearly 6 million live black slaves to the far side of the desert. According to his calculations, the trade started at a modest average rate of 1,000 slaves/year in the seventh century, doubled in the next century and again in the ninth, reached 5,000 slaves/year in thirteenth century, doubled to 10,000/year in the fourteenth century, and doubled again to 20,000/year in the fifteenth. The trade continued at that average yearly rate, Mauny believed, until the twentieth century; however he later revised his figures upwards125 (see Table 3.1)."
John Wright, the Trans-Saharan Slave Trade, pp. 38
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quote:Most of the black slaves would have been in Morocco, the most populous Maghrebi country, and the one with the greatest purchasing power. The 150,000-strong black slave army built up by the Sultan Moulay Ismael around the year 1700 was only a short-lived phenomen."
John Wright, the Trans-Saharan Slave Trade, pp. 169
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quote:Most of the black slaves would have been in Morocco, the most populous Maghrebi country, and the one with the greatest purchasing power. The 150,000-strong black slave army built up by the Sultan Moulay Ismael around the year 1700 was only a short-lived phenomen."
John Wright, the Trans-Saharan Slave Trade, pp. 169
How did the slaves get there? I real,I get the quote is from the 1700s but you implied in various threads that the Sahara was a barrier. I've brung this up before,but what stops Africans further south from hugging the coast to navigate with other parts of Africa?
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quote:Most of the black slaves would have been in Morocco, the most populous Maghrebi country, and the one with the greatest purchasing power. The 150,000-strong black slave army built up by the Sultan Moulay Ismael around the year 1700 was only a short-lived phenomen."
John Wright, the Trans-Saharan Slave Trade, pp. 169
How did the slaves get there? I real,I get the quote is from the 1700s but you implied in various threads that the Sahara was a barrier. I've brung this up before,but what stops Africans further south from hugging the coast to navigate with other parts of Africa?
Never heard of caravans ? Never heard of the almoravid, Saadian and Alawite empires ? They controlled a good part of west africa for centuries and many west african kingdoms used to sold them slaves.
Anyway yes overall the trip was dangerous and only relied on long roads lined with wells and only known by a few merchants and such contacts only really started with the muslim conquest before that there wasn't much contact between SSA and NW Africa.
I forget where I read that but I remember testimonies of whole caravans who simply vanished/died because some wells were empty.
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denying coastal north africans look like afro-americans is being "negrophobic" ?
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quote:Originally posted by Elijah The Tishbite: I'm ignoring the Negrophobic troll, not even going to respond to him.
Naturally by trying to suggest one photo of a person represents the "coastal North African type" it is likely to upset people of North African background who don't look like that photo
and this is not the type of thing S.O.Y. Kieta would do. He said the region was heterogeneous
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quote:Originally posted by Antalas: "tropically adapted/negroid" when it comes to limb is not going to tell us anything especially when it comes to people who live in desertic/hot areas as Brace himself said :
quote:The elongation of the distal segments of the limbs is also clearly related to the dissipation of metabolically generated heat. Since heat stress and latitude are clearly related, one would expect to find a correlation between the two sets of traits that are associated with adaptation to survival in areas of great ambient temperature-namely skin color and limb proportions. This is clearly the case in such areas as equatorial Africa, the tropical portions of South Asia, and northern Australia, although there is little covariation with other sets of inherited traits. In this regard, it is interesting to note that the limb proportions of the Predynastic Naqada people in Upper Egypt are reported to be “super-negroid,” meaning that the distal segments are elongated in the fashion of tropical Africans (Robins and Shute, 1986). It would be just as accurate to call them “super-Veddoid or “superCarpentarian” since skin color intensification and distal limb elongation is apparent wherever people have been long-term residents of the tropics. The term “supertropical” would be better since it implies the results of selection associated with a given latitude rather than the more “racially loaded” term “negroid. ” "
Brace, C. L., D. P. Tracer, L. A. Yaroch, J. Robb, K. Brandt, and A. R. Nelson. 1993. Clines and Clusters Versus "Race": A Test in Ancient Egypt and the Case of a Death on the Nile. Yearbook of Physical Anthropology 36:1-31.
Also how do you know modern egyptians don't have such "tropically adapted" limbs ?
The problem with your argument is that "Egypt" is not in the "Tropics", and that includes a good chunk of Lower Nubia as well. Being in a "desert" does not equate to being the "Tropics". In order to be "Tropically adapted" or "Super Negroid" a people MUST have developed IN THE TROPICS;
The Tropical nature of the body plans in the Khamites is proof that they came from the South.
quote:Originally posted by Antalas: "tropically adapted/negroid" when it comes to limb is not going to tell us anything especially when it comes to people who live in desertic/hot areas as Brace himself said :
quote:The elongation of the distal segments of the limbs is also clearly related to the dissipation of metabolically generated heat. Since heat stress and latitude are clearly related, one would expect to find a correlation between the two sets of traits that are associated with adaptation to survival in areas of great ambient temperature-namely skin color and limb proportions. This is clearly the case in such areas as equatorial Africa, the tropical portions of South Asia, and northern Australia, although there is little covariation with other sets of inherited traits. In this regard, it is interesting to note that the limb proportions of the Predynastic Naqada people in Upper Egypt are reported to be “super-negroid,” meaning that the distal segments are elongated in the fashion of tropical Africans (Robins and Shute, 1986). It would be just as accurate to call them “super-Veddoid or “superCarpentarian” since skin color intensification and distal limb elongation is apparent wherever people have been long-term residents of the tropics. The term “supertropical” would be better since it implies the results of selection associated with a given latitude rather than the more “racially loaded” term “negroid. ” "
Brace, C. L., D. P. Tracer, L. A. Yaroch, J. Robb, K. Brandt, and A. R. Nelson. 1993. Clines and Clusters Versus "Race": A Test in Ancient Egypt and the Case of a Death on the Nile. Yearbook of Physical Anthropology 36:1-31.
Also how do you know modern egyptians don't have such "tropically adapted" limbs ?
The problem with your argument is that "Egypt" is not in the "Tropics", and that includes a good chunk of Lower Nubia as well. Being in a "desert" does not equate to being the "Tropics". In order to be "Tropically adapted" or "Super Negroid" a people MUST have developed IN THE TROPICS;
The Tropical nature of the body plans in the Khamites is proof that they came from the South.
People should keep in mind that approx 15-17% of Egypt empire is in the tropical zone, and the rest is adjacent to that zone,and yes, the foundational populations did originate in the tropical south, as even Mary Lefkowitz admits. Brace's oft quoted "super-tropical" qualifier is less impressive than it seems since a huge chunk of the "super-tropicals" cluster with the dreaded "negroids"..
As regards "coastal"North Africans, like Keita says they are a diverse lot, debunking pale types who like to think of themselves as somehow "mo betta" "representatives" of "North Africans." Sweeping claims about "North Africans" too often only sample a narrow band of coast before proclaiming their findings to be "representative" of the huge region, just like the those who sample cemeteries near the Mediterranean and sweepingly proclaim some sort of "repesentativeness" for all Egypt, as Egyptologist Barry Kemp so succinctly pointed out..
Folks should also keep in mind that "coastal" North Africa is not the sole definition of North Africa. "Coastal" is simply ONE part of North Africa, which as credible geographers show, include many areas inland. "North Africa" takes in both the coast and areas deep inland including the Sudan.
Being in a "desert" does not equate to being the "Tropics".
True but keep in mind that a significant chunk of the "tropics" in Africa is made up of desert- parts of the Sahara and Sahel, the Kalahari, the Somali/Ethiop arid regions, etc etc. The "tropics" in Africa, are much more than the stereotypical "jungle." They includes desert, cold cloud forest cold, snow-capped mountains, cool coastal zones etc etc, allowing a wide range of African phenotypes to develop without automatically needing any "race mix" to explain why.
As for those who play the "Berber" card, Berber is a language category not a "racial" one and there are plenty of "black" Berbers to go around, as Keita has noted:
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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posted
With "Lower Nubia" itself barely qualifying as "Tropical", ancient Khamet itself did not touch the Tropic zone.
Now he MODERN border of "Egypt" extends into what was almost Upper Nubia. Therefore we should not equate the modern century old European created borders with that which was designated in ancient times i.e Aswan. Ancient Khamet was firmly in the "sub Tropics", which means that none of it's founding population could have a recent origin within it's natural boundaries or points northward.
quote:Originally posted by zarahan aka Enrique Cardova:
As regards "coastal"North Africans, like Keita says they are a diverse lot, debunking pale types who like to think of themselves as somehow "mo betta" "representatives" of "North Africans." Sweeping claims about "North Africans" too often only sample a narrow band of coast before proclaiming their findings to be "representative" of the huge region, just like the those who sample cemeteries near the Mediterranean and sweepingly proclaim some sort of "repesentativeness" for all Egypt, as Egyptologist Barry Kemp so succinctly pointed out..
What are you talking about ? What does craniometry have to do with skin color ? I already posted a quote showing modern coastal algerians to show such high heterogeneity anyway all of this has nothing to do with skin color. Yes coastal north africans are representative since they make up the vast majority of north africa's population and most NAs live along the coast :
quote:Originally posted by zarahan aka Enrique Cardova: Folks should also keep in mind that "coastal" North Africa is not the sole definition of North Africa. "Coastal" is simply ONE part of North Africa, which as credible geographers show, include many areas inland. "North Africa" takes in both the coast and areas deep inland including the Sudan.
That's called a convention established by modern institutions the same way we talk about "MENA" or "Asia" ...do you at least know what Sudan means in arabic ?
quote:Originally posted by zarahan aka Enrique Cardova: As for those who play the "Berber" card, Berber is a language category not a "racial" one and there are plenty of "black" Berbers to go around, as Keita has noted:
Keita isn't supporting your claim he's saying that modern north africans should be seen as indigenous africans instead of "eurasians" and "berber" is a clear genetic reality since most north africans share the same profile, also there is the Iberomaurusian component that peaks among them, they have their own haplogroup clades, that's why geneticist are able to detect "north african" admixture among south european samples, etc etc
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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quote:Originally posted by Antalas: [QB] So again stop posting an obvious Slave descendent moroccan no indigenous berber in morocco look like this guy lol
Go in the countryside of Morocco and tell these berbers moussaoui is their kin :
Antalas what if I told you the woman on his right was his mother? Would it be believable?
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Antalas: [QB] So again stop posting an obvious Slave descendent moroccan no indigenous berber in morocco look like this guy lol
Go in the countryside of Morocco and tell these berbers moussaoui is their kin :
Antalas what if I told you the woman on his right was his mother? Would it be believable?
no the woman has a clear ssa vibe similar to these carribean creole populations
very different from old berber folks from Morocco :
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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quote:Originally posted by Antalas: [QB] So again stop posting an obvious Slave descendent moroccan no indigenous berber in morocco look like this guy lol
Go in the countryside of Morocco and tell these berbers moussaoui is their kin :
Antalas what if I told you the woman on his right was his mother? Would it be believable?
no the woman has a clear ssa vibe similar to these carribean creole populations
very different from old berber folks from Morocco :
So you're saying that you think the woman on the left has SSA vibes and the woman on the right doesn't ?
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Elijah The Tishbite: He's clearly trolling and Negrophobic..........
I'm trolling ? No sorry I'm not the guy who post a clearly west african type as "coastal north african type" lol
Either you troll or you clearly don't know anything about north africa.
+ If I remember correctly moussaoui isn't even from the coastal part of north africa
you cherrypicked the most black looking guy and then made that bait thread lol
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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quote:Originally posted by Elijah The Tishbite: He's clearly trolling and Negrophobic..........
Elijah The Tishbite If you didn't know anything about these women what would be your guess as to their ancestry and also how would you compare them. Could they be sisters or not? Do you feel they are kind of similar or couldn't be?
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Antalas, this is considered to be a Libyan of about 2,500 years ago. His hair appears to be straight with a slight wave but wouldn't you say his apparent prognathism and somewhat full lips resemble Africans to the South?
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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depictions of eastern libyans by egyptians clearly show something similar to modern north africans :
Persians depicted them like this :
But maybe libyans who lived further south in the libyan desert along the egyptian western oasis were more mixed who knows
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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quote:Originally posted by Antalas: the woman has a clear ssa vibe similar to these carribean creole populations
Berbers, often with a nomadic history are known for integrating a lot of different types into their culture. Look at NA history of the past 2,500 years it includes people native to the region as well as a lot of others including:
Africans of North of Africa Africans from other places in Africa who went to NA Phoenicians Germanic Vandals Jews Greeks Romans Arabs Syrians Turks Spanish French
So with these various groups intermingling in some cases you get people who would be "creoles" if they happened to have instead mixed in one of the Caribbean colonies of the Europeans. So you can have the same type of mixtures going on regardless of it is in Africa or the Caribbean
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Antalas, why are switching to different art. This is from the 5th dynasty. You are showing stuff from around the 19th dynasty about 1,300 years later
Let's stick to the above much older depiction here His hair appears to be straight with a slight wave but wouldn't you say his apparent prognathism and somewhat full lips resemble Africans to the South?
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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